No more SKILL TREES is crazy

[Nerfington]

One simple solution seems to be to give points which allow unlocking new skills, or can be used to buff existing skills for nearly the same effect (and maybe some health bonus or something), allowing you to choose the level of complexity that you wish to engage in your rotation (which is what the previous trees allowed, trade offs between those options), while still allowing the keeping of specialisations and not having to balance cross tree hybrid stuff.

 

So on my balance sage, I'd prefer not to have 2 dots to manage, maybe I could just buy 80% of the damage on my main dot, instead of buying 'sever life' or whatever the new dot ability is, and get a small boost to health or something as well. Some of the rotations just have passed the point for being enjoyable for me, I spend more time watching cooldowns and debuff icons than the actual game, when before I'd spend more time watching the world, focusing on using my utilities around a core rotation of about 5 offence abilities, etc, and was having way way way more fun. If LoL/DotA/etc can make decent combat complexity with only a few abilities, there's no reason to argue that SWTOR would be 'too dumb' if you're managing something like the old popular sage/sorc hybrid spec, along with all the utilities.

[calypsissmexy]

Wow, I really enjoyed some of the tantrums in this thread. Very fun stuff.

10/10

[TheSeventhJedi]

The more I play it, the more I like the new way of doing things. Is it simplified? Sure. But I feel like I actually have a choice in the kills that I personally would like to use, and the new linear path helps me to figure out a class on my own, without resorting to guide after guide of where to put my points and rotations and blah blah blah. If you think that dumbs down the game, well, bully for you. It makes it easier for me to jump in and start playing (and playing well,) and that, for me, translates into more fun.

[LordArtemis]

That's a terrible analogy. This change barely affects anyone. Almost everyone used the same spec, hybrids were the gross minority.

 

That is ridiculous. The change affects everyone, any contention to the contrary is ludicrous. It affects casuals the most, in that they have a different method to choose abilities, and in the long run will benefit them the most IMO. But that is difficult for them to see at the moment.

 

It most directly benefits Bioware and those that run group content and PVP, the likely minority of the playerbase. That means that casuals get the short end of the stick in the short term, but benefit most in the long term because the intention to reduce the frequency of constant ability changes is usually something casuals care about the most.

 

So, it makes sense casuals are upset at the moment because they can't see the benefits down the road, if they do in fact materialize. Right now all they see is a loss of choice (mostly an illusion) combined with a loss of DPS, Healing, Mitigation, abilities they once had, and other abilities that do not work the same.

 

This changed almost everything about abilities....and some of those changes had nothing to do with balance and the like....those are the changes that I have issue with, otherwise I support the system.

 

It seems some folks are stuck on the "it got rid of hybrids" and "i want hybrid ability" argument. It is a silly argument IMO and it is not even the real issue.....

1) Changes were made that affects everyone for the benefit of a small portion of players and Bioware in the short term.

2) Many more things were changed than needed to be, like some abilities that "did not fit" roles or classes in Bioware's eyes.

3) Casuals will benefit the most in the long term if this change turns out to reduce the frequency of ability changes or eliminates them. It is difficult for casuals to see at this point, hence the understandable outrage.

 

Concentrating on the removal or loss of hybrid ability is a way to deflect the real issue and it's true focus and impact IMO. It is smoke, nothing more.

Edited January 4, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Nerfington]

I think it's worse for casuals, as somebody who casually plays a fair few alts, because previously you had the ability to invest around complex extra abilities and stick to a core familiar working rotation, investing in other buffs. Now you're essentially forced to take the most complex rotation possible, without any benefit selectable for not using it.

 

I always saw the max tree level ability as something for people super interested in min/maxed raiding and who wanted to manage a whole lot of extra junk. As a sort of casual pve'r, I'm hugely put off by the change in that few of my classes are at a fun level of management to play now. I didn't want to be playing at a rotation complexity level of what we have now and specifically specced around it before.

[LordArtemis]

I also forgot to mention that casuals are forced to accept abilities and passives that have no benefit to a player that does not engage in group play or PVP....which I assume is the majority of the playerbase.

 

I would speculate, especially with certain classes and disciplines that many casuals find the upper levels of some classes to be void of anything interesting or useful, and most utilities to be next to useless as well.

[Tune]

Many of the players that built hybrid builds did so because they never played group content, and so when soloing, being a "jack of all trades" is a huge benefit.

 

Unfortunately that playstyle is no longer valid in TOR.

 

So, you say that solo play is not longer valid in TOR?

 

And here i was wondering why this expansion doesnt have heroic missions, and the hm fp's are useless, if solo is also not valid. What that leave us then?

[MillionsKNives]

That is ridiculous. The change affects everyone, any contention to the contrary is ludicrous. It affects casuals the most, in that they have a different method to choose abilities, and in the long run will benefit them the most IMO. But that is difficult for them to see at the moment.

 

So my merc which plays almost identically to pre 3.0, save for one new ability, has been affected by this change how? At 55 it played identically. I find your contention ludicrous. If you played a spec the correct way then the change does not affect you. And by BioWare's own admission, almost everyone used the same spec anyway...

 

It most directly benefits Bioware and those that run group content and PVP, the likely minority of the playerbase. That means that casuals get the short end of the stick in the short term, but benefit most in the long term because the intention to reduce the frequency of constant ability changes is usually something casuals care about the most.

 

It benefits everyone because now they don't have to deal with the inevitable changes that would have happened if they stuck with the skill tree system. It benefits everyone because they get their important abilities earlier than they used to.

 

So, it makes sense casuals are upset at the moment because they can't see the benefits down the road, if they do in fact materialize. Right now all they see is a loss of choice (mostly an illusion) combined with a loss of DPS, Healing, Mitigation, abilities they once had, and other abilities that do not work the same.

 

What casuals? The few complainers we've had in these threads? You're using a very broad term to refer to only a few people.

 

This changed almost everything about abilities....and some of those changes had nothing to do with balance and the like....those are the changes that I have issue with, otherwise I support the system.

 

"Almost everything" is a very strong statement. Please enumerate these changes and demonstrate how this has changed "almost everything about abilities".

 

The changes to things like orbital strike have nothing to do with disciplines and are a part of general balancing / class changes that happen during expacs.

[Tune]

You've got that backwards. You were the minority. Deny it all you like, but it's the truth.

 

So what? We are all part of some minority.

 

PvP, PvE, dailys, ops, etc, it is all for minorities. If you want to remove all in game that is only used by minorities, then you have to shut it down.

 

This has nothing to do with the real reason of the change.

[Tune]

I'm talking about hybrid players, the only people that this change affected.

 

Wrong.

[Tune]

3) Casuals will benefit the most in the long term if this change turns out to reduce the frequency of ability changes or eliminates them. It is difficult for casuals to see at this point, hence the understandable outrage.[/color]

[/i]

 

Lord, Lord..., you disapoint me, surely you can do better... (kiding with you)

 

Now, i have to say, as always, your posts and replys show you are intelligente and open minded, imparcial and objective. Thats why i like to read your posts.

But, in this case, i dont agree with you. Sure, i understand that you may believe in this, i can see that far ahead, but i can also see even more further.

There will still be changes, on all classes, coz the end-game PvE and PvP will always be unbalanced, so all classes will continue to have changes.

 

I agree that this system will make devs job easyer, but that is the real reason this change happend, and it a wrong one.

They are thinking on how many hours they have to spend on this, so lets cut the investement, and find a more simple form.

 

The "meaningful choices" from utilities are 90% a joke.

The class balance is no more then an excuse.

 

The only real idea here was to reduce their work, that followed a reduction in investement from the company, coz we didnt actualy saw anything extra in the expansion, so they could say "we spend less time on this but we gave you this and that extra". The lack of content in the entire expansion, the lost of cut scenes on side missions, the loss of companion affection gained/lost in convs, the most crappy and ridiculous story, useless hm fp's, etc etc, just proves that they only care about cutting expences, and dont give a damm about what is actualy better for the players/game.

[eartharioch]

You can't see the difference between choosing specific abilities and utilizing their synergy to achieve the best performance, and just facerolling your abilities?

 

Also, what exactly is button mashing to you, and what would constitute non-button mashing? Are you referring to the need to press a button to activate an ability? The general use of "button mashing" is to refer to someone hitting buttons at random without care of what they are hitting. Essentially a synonym of "face rolling". Using a carefully crafted rotation is not button mashing.

 

"Button Mashing" is actually max's preferred style -- he'd like to use whatever ability he thinks would "feel" appropriate at the moment and know that it was as buffed as possible through passives with no regard to abilities he had previously used.

 

"Whack-a-mole" is actually a pretty apt description of high-end rotations. You plan out a series of actions and execute them, and when the prize button lights up, you hit it and do mega damage.

 

I'm being a bit facetious, but it is hard to avoid thinking of BW's new "flashing button" UI as "whack-a-mole".

 

That said, I don't disagree that being able to choose true passives instead of procs is a valid reason to want the free form skill trees instead of fixed disciplines with procs. While BW did make some needed improvements to the Buff/Debuff UI (whack-a-mole humor aside), the interface still sucks enough that I actively avoid playing specs with a lot of procs.

 

My main complaint is that they move around to much, which means I spend too much time looking at my Buff bar instead of paying attention to the fight. I know that a few procs have associated visual or audio effects, but there aren't many which I can distinguish reliably because of the general audio/video noise (flashy effects, laggy and jerky action, horrible camera action, etc.).

 

The Buff bar also shows all Buffs, and even with the new "priority" system, I'm forced to choose between making them big enough to distinguish (since they still move around a lot, just not as much as before) or actually getting to see enough of my screen.

 

It would be a real improvement if they would move the most common (and least interesting) Buffs -- Sprint, mount, stance, class buffs, Stim, XP buffs -- to a separate bar (in a set order) that could be moved to the side. These things usually don't change during combat, so I don't need to see them when I'm fighting.

 

They could then divide the rest of the buffs into two categories -- self-applied and other. The self-applied buff bar would work like a hot-bar -- users would drag the icon from the abilities window into the bar. Thus, the same passive procs or active abilities (CDs) would always appear in the same place. Thus buffs wouldn't need to be made so big.

 

Other-applied would be the catch-all, and (since the least predictable and most variable) would benefit from larger sizing than ones own buffs.

 

A separate Raid Buffs bar (in fixed order) would probable help as well.

 

Anyway, I do approve of the removal of hybrids because of balance reasons, and I like that the devs tried to make the buff bar more manageable, but there's still a lot of work to be done.

[LordArtemis]

Ok, i will break this down for you MK, since you seem to enjoy engaging in hyperbole.....

 

So my merc which plays almost identically to pre 3.0, save for one new ability, has been affected by this change how?

 

You answered your own question.

At 55 it played identically.

 

No, it didn't, your prior statement stands in evidence.

 

I find your contention ludicrous.

 

That is your choice, I can't stop you from iceskating uphill, nor can I stop you from posting nonsense. You are free to do as you like.

If you played a spec the correct way then the change does not affect you.

 

You must be joking. Correct way? Based on what? Design? Content? Hugs and flowers?

 

And by BioWare's own admission, almost everyone used the same spec anyway...

 

I agree with that. Of course I was not talking about that, but we will come back to that later.

 

It benefits everyone because now they don't have to deal with the inevitable changes that would have happened if they stuck with the skill tree system.

 

Which is exactly the point that I made.

 

It benefits everyone because they get their important abilities earlier than they used to.

 

A very good and sensible point. One I forgot to mention.

 

What casuals? The few complainers we've had in these threads? You're using a very broad term to refer to only a few people.

 

Who I am referring to is my business to contend. You do not define the meanings of my terms or the intent of my posts.

 

"Almost everything" is a very strong statement. Please enumerate these changes and demonstrate how this has changed "almost everything about abilities".

 

Since I have already done so numerous times, and Bioware has done a pretty good job of laying this particular point out, I am going to defer you to them if you have any questions or concerns on this particular point.

 

The changes to things like orbital strike have nothing to do with disciplines and are a part of general balancing / class changes that happen during expacs.

 

Ok....I am not sure I agree with the first statement as you are indicating they are not related in any way...which I think is a pretty silly contention, and the second point I am fairly sure you have no way of contending with any accuracy, since you are not privy to the reasons the general balancing/class changes were made, other than what Bioware has released publicly.

 

Again, your arguing for the sake of argument it seems. And you are making an entire set of extremely silly contentions in the process while you pound your fists.

 

In other words (just in case it isnt clear) your not helping the intent to help casuals understand this will benefit them in the long run...if anything you are making it worse by spouting hyperbolic nonsense.

Edited January 4, 2015 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

Lord, Lord..., you disapoint me, surely you can do better... (kiding with you)

 

Now, i have to say, as always, your posts and replys show you are intelligente and open minded, imparcial and objective. Thats why i like to read your posts.

But, in this case, i dont agree with you. Sure, i understand that you may believe in this, i can see that far ahead, but i can also see even more further.

There will still be changes, on all classes, coz the end-game PvE and PvP will always be unbalanced, so all classes will continue to have changes.

 

I agree that this system will make devs job easyer, but that is the real reason this change happend, and it a wrong one.

They are thinking on how many hours they have to spend on this, so lets cut the investement, and find a more simple form.

 

The "meaningful choices" from utilities are 90% a joke.

The class balance is no more then an excuse.

 

The only real idea here was to reduce their work, that followed a reduction in investement from the company, coz we didnt actualy saw anything extra in the expansion, so they could say "we spend less time on this but we gave you this and that extra". The lack of content in the entire expansion, the lost of cut scenes on side missions, the loss of companion affection gained/lost in convs, the most crappy and ridiculous story, useless hm fp's, etc etc, just proves that they only care about cutting expences, and dont give a damm about what is actualy better for the players/game.

 

I understand your view and your point. I will explain a bit further. Understand, I am not arguing the merits of the actual system...it needs some work, I agree. Only it's effect on players.

 

First, I agree it was a change made to benefit a minority and Bioware itself in the SHORT TERM. That much is clear. MK made a good point though....it does provide meaningful abilities much earlier than before.

 

Remember....I am not arguing whether or not they should have gone this route...only that this WAS one route they could have chosen to accomplish their goals.

 

What I am speaking of is what I believe is a benefit to casuals that many will find hard to accept in the short term, but will see play out in the long term....and that, I must admit is assumptive on my part.

 

Casuals generally despise constant changes to abilities for the benefit of a minority of the playerbase, for the sake of a balance crusade. I believe this statement to be true. In fact, I believe this has been one of the main issues that casuals have had since the beginning, all based on the foolish obsession with keeping one rule set for PVE and PVP.

 

As long as devs continue to struggle with this foolish notion, this problem will always exist.

 

I believe the current change mitigates that problem, since it makes it much less likely that changes will have to constantly be made for the sake of balance, driven by hybrid ability.

 

It will not eliminate ability change completely, but it will likely reduce it drastically.

 

I think eventually most casuals can adjust to the changes, especially if some of the more foolish "this ability does not fit" changes are reversed. I also think utilities needs to be expanded, and the main ability tree contracted a bit. But in the end, if this means less changes to abilities for the sake of hardcore players I think this is something that most casuals can embrace.

 

Just my view of course.

[Tune]

I

First, I agree it was a change made to benefit a minority and Bioware itself in the SHORT TERM. That much is clear. MK made a good point though....it does provide meaningful abilities much earlier than before.

 

 

 

Not always. Plz check my first reply in this thread, where i explained something i consider wrong for Guardians/Juggers when it comes to those spec specific abilities.

 

 

 

Casuals generally despise constant changes to abilities for the benefit of a minority of the playerbase, for the sake of a balance crusade. I believe this statement to be true. In fact, I believe this has been one of the main issues that casuals have had since the beginning, all based on the foolish obsession with keeping one rule set for PVE and PVP.

 

As long as devs continue to struggle with this foolish notion, this problem will always exist.

 

I believe the current change mitigates that problem, since it makes it much less likely that changes will have to constantly be made for the sake of balance, driven by hybrid ability.

 

It will not eliminate ability change completely, but it will likely reduce it drastically.

 

 

It depends. When it comes to class balance and skills and abilities changes, i had very bad experiences from my 8 years playing WoW, where balanced was never achieved, and so the constant changes, and IMO, the real reason why every major patch some class/spec would get op, and others would get nerfed, had to do with class population balance.

This meant, the classes less popular will get more buffed, and the classes more popular will get more nerfed. All for the sake of class population balance.

 

I can understand, not sure if i agree. Just hope BW dont follow this road, and instead, find the real reason behinde a class not to be so popular, and work that.

[LordArtemis]

Not always. Plz check my first reply in this thread, where i explained something i consider wrong for Guardians/Juggers when it comes to those spec specific abilities.

 

Ah, fair enough. As I indicated, there is plenty of room for improvement in the current system. I for one would like to see that conversation to move forward.

 

It depends. When it comes to class balance and skills and abilities changes, i had very bad experiences from my 8 years playing WoW, where balanced was never achieved, and so the constant changes, and IMO, the real reason why every major patch some class/spec would get op, and others would get nerfed, had to do with class population balance.

This meant, the classes less popular will get more buffed, and the classes more popular will get more nerfed. All for the sake of class population balance.

 

I can understand, not sure if i agree. Just hope BW dont follow this road, and instead, find the real reason behinde a class not to be so popular, and work that.

 

That is actually the reason why I left WoW for good. The amount and frequency of changes was unbearable IMO.

 

We will see. If this bears out as I expect it will, we will see less frequent changes. Only time will tell.

[Halinalle]

It depends. When it comes to class balance and skills and abilities changes, i had very bad experiences from my 8 years playing WoW, where balanced was never achieved, and so the constant changes, and IMO, the real reason why every major patch some class/spec would get op, and others would get nerfed, had to do with class population balance.

This meant, the classes less popular will get more buffed, and the classes more popular will get more nerfed. All for the sake of class population balance.

 

I can understand, not sure if i agree. Just hope BW dont follow this road, and instead, find the real reason behinde a class not to be so popular, and work that.

 

So "You're not a sniper, you can't get to group" would be better then?

[MillionsKNives]

You answered your own question.

 

A new ability, which would have come regardless of disciplines or not, does not demonstrate how the change affects me. If your intent is to tell me that literally saying "nothing changed" is wrong, then you caught me. But I didn't intend to literally say "nothing changed".

 

No, it didn't, your prior statement stands in evidence.

 

Before 3.0 and after 3.0, at 55 my spec played no differently. That only changed after I started leveling in the new expansion and I gained a new ability. But we got a new ability at 51 too with 2.0, and that came even with the old skill system. So a new skill is hardly evidence of how the discipline system affected me.

 

You must be joking. Correct way? Based on what? Design? Content? Hugs and flowers?

 

Based on math, based on what BioWare intended, based on guides, based on what studying the tree tells you is the best way to maximize output. Take your pick, they all pointed to the same answer, give or take a few points. People pretty much all took the same points per spec, because that's how the spec was intended to be picked.

 

If you picked the spec as it was intended then it plays almost exactly the same as before 3.0.

 

Which is exactly the point that I made.

 

Perhaps, but the way it was phrased implies that its only benefit, or its main benefit, is that it made it easier on BioWare. Easier for BioWare or not, not having to deal with the mess that would have been the existing skill trees adapted for 5 extra points is a benefit for everyone.

 

Who I am referring to is my business to contend. You do not define the meanings of my terms or the intent of my posts.

 

Who you are referring to has not been contended as far as I can tell. Which is why I asked. You're using a very vague and general term. And the way you are using it implies a very large population, but for the most part I've only seen complaints from a small population. So please, contend and define the meaning of your terms so I don't have to guess or ask.

 

Since I have already done so numerous times, and Bioware has done a pretty good job of laying this particular point out, I am going to defer you to them if you have any questions or concerns on this particular point.

 

Rapid shots, Tracer Missile, Heatseeker Missile, Rail Shot, Unload, and Electro Net all work the same as before. All of those are the key rotational abilities of the Arsenal Merc. Most others were untouched as well, such as Fusion Missile, Explosive Dart, Electro Dart, Stealth Scan, Concussion Missile, Rocket Punch, Flamethrower, Energy Shield, Jet Boost, Hydraulic Overrides, High Velocity Gas Cylinder, Chaff Flare, Power Surge, or Thermal Sensor Override. Pretty much any changes to other abilies were related to general balance and not a direct result of disciplines.

 

Ok....I am not sure I agree with the first statement as you are indicating they are not related in any way...which I think is a pretty silly contention, and the second point I am fairly sure you have no way of contending with any accuracy, since you are not privy to the reasons the general balancing/class changes were made, other than what Bioware has released publicly.

 

I think that in a conversation about the impacts of the disciplines change it's important that we separate what was a result of the disciplines from what wasn't. If we're going to judge the merits of the disciplines system it should be judged on its own merits, not bundled along with any grievances for other changes related to class balancing. That isn't to say there was no interplay with the two changes, however I can't think of many changes that wouldn't have existed just fine had disciplines never been added.

 

Again, your arguing for the sake of argument it seems. And you are making an entire set of extremely silly contentions in the process while you pound your fists.

 

I could certainly say much the same for you as well.

Edited January 4, 2015 by MillionsKNives

[Aries_cz]

LordArtemis, I think that during my argumentation with Max_Killjoy, I proved that with 3.0 changes, nothing was lost, and in fact, more desirable choices were added that allow you to customize your playstyle.

[LordArtemis]

A new ability, which would have come regardless of disciplines or not, does not demonstrate how the change affects me. If your intent is to tell me that literally saying "nothing changed" is wrong, then you caught me. But I didn't intend to literally say "nothing changed".

 

Fair enough, If i misunderstood, and that was not your intent, then I digress.

Before 3.0 and after 3.0, at 55 my spec played no differently. That only changed after I started leveling in the new expansion and I gained a new ability. But we got a new ability at 51 too with 2.0, and that came even with the old skill system. So a new skill is hardly evidence of how the discipline system affected me.

 

....played no differently GENERALLY SPEAKING....I know it's your observation, but obviously it played differently for everyone...lowered DPS, changed mechanics, even if the changes were not that noticeable (which I agree with) they did not play exactly the same. The changes were negligible, perhaps, but not nonexistent, which is what the term "played no differently" tends to contend.

 

Based on math, based on what BioWare intended, based on guides, based on what studying the tree tells you is the best way to maximize output. Take your pick, they all pointed to the same answer, give or take a few points. People pretty much all took the same points per spec, because that's how the spec was intended to be picked.

 

Based on math for optimal build performance in certain types of play....absolutely. Based on Bioware's design intent, I agree. Both good contentions if put forth that way.

 

Guides and studies, again, that depends on content that you play. It can be argued that most players do not participate in the kinds of play where those types of things make a difference. And that is the point here.

 

If you picked the spec as it was intended then it plays almost exactly the same as before 3.0.

 

This is an accurate statement IMO.

 

Perhaps, but the way it was phrased implies that its only benefit, or its main benefit, is that it made it easier on BioWare. Easier for BioWare or not, not having to deal with the mess that would have been the existing skill trees adapted for 5 extra points is a benefit for everyone.

 

My statement is likely more factual than yours....but that does not mean it is absolutely correct. One can argue, with almost certainty, that the change was made to benefit a small portion of players (group content and PVP) and Bioware....that much is self evident.

 

One can argue that casuals benefited from some sort of issue that would have existed if they had left the tree system in place, or if they adopted any other system other than what was implemented, but that is speculative IMO.

 

Who you are referring to has not been contended as far as I can tell. Which is why I asked. You're using a very vague and general term. And the way you are using it implies a very large population, but for the most part I've only seen complaints from a small population. So please, contend and define the meaning of your terms so I don't have to guess or ask.

 

Fair enough.

Rapid shots, Tracer Missile, Heatseeker Missile, Rail Shot, Unload, and Electro Net all work the same as before. All of those are the key rotational abilities of the Arsenal Merc. Most others were untouched as well, such as Fusion Missile, Explosive Dart, Electro Dart, Stealth Scan, Concussion Missile, Rocket Punch, Flamethrower, Energy Shield, Jet Boost, Hydraulic Overrides, High Velocity Gas Cylinder, Chaff Flare, Power Surge, or Thermal Sensor Override. Pretty much any changes to other abilies were related to general balance and not a direct result of disciplines.

 

The change to OS and FF was made because Bioware did not feel they felt right for the class. That much they made clear themselves, and that is only one of a few changes made specifically for that purpose.

 

And those changes, as few as they are, are ones I have issue with.

I think that in a conversation about the impacts of the disciplines change it's important that we separate what was a result of the disciplines from what wasn't. If we're going to judge the merits of the disciplines system it should be judged on its own merits, not bundled along with any grievances for other changes related to class balancing. That isn't to say there was no interplay with the two changes, however I can't think of many changes that wouldn't have existed just fine had disciplines never been added.

 

Again, fair enough, but I argue that it is important to sell this change to casuals, as they are the majority playerbase. The way to do so is to present how it will benefit those kind of players.

 

Changes that benefit group play and PVP do not likely appeal to casual players...of course generally speaking. There has to be another benefit, and I believe the idea that it will be easier for Bioware to balance moving forward is a big one...in fact, to be clear, here are the benefits to casuals in my eyes...

 

1) Less frequent changes to abilities in the future

2) Meaningful abilities earlier in the leveling process

3) Much easier to choose builds since there is less to mess with (utilities)

 

I could certainly say much the same for you as well.

 

To say again, fair enough.

[LordArtemis]

LordArtemis, I think that during my argumentation with Max_Killjoy, I proved that with 3.0 changes, nothing was lost, and in fact, more desirable choices were added that allow you to customize your playstyle.

 

Well, I would argue that a few things were lost, which might be important to some....again, I note OS and FF as one example. But I admit that it is likely most folks do not care about that sort of loss. I personally do, and take issue only with those losses or changes that were not balance based...as in simply changed because they did not "feel right" for the devs. Those kind of changes were shortsighted and unnecessary IMO.

 

I agree there were certainly gains, and that the current system has merits other than what I have mentioned.

[Tune]

LordArtemis, I think that during my argumentation with Max_Killjoy,

1 - I proved that with 3.0 changes,

2 - nothing was lost, and in fact,

3 - more desirable choices were added that

4 - allow you to customize your playstyle.

 

1 - In an argumentation you can state your opinion, not prove anything unless backed with facts.

2 - thats so not true, just your opinion

3 - not to me, and not to most ppl. a very small % of he player base can actualy find more good choices now then before. From the 21 options, if you find 4 or 5 meaningfull, then you are very lucky.

4 - actualy, to me and so many others, what happends is that we play exactly the same even if we dont spend one single point, so this argument...

[Halinalle]

not to me, and not to most ppl. a very small % of he player base can actualy find more good choices now then before. From the 21 options, if you find 4 or 5 meaningfull, then you are very lucky

 

What's the problem?

 

Are you saying you can't find 7 utilities for PvE?

[Aries_cz]

1 - In an argumentation you can state your opinion, not prove anything unless backed with facts.

2 - thats so not true, just your opinion

3 - not to me, and not to most ppl. a very small % of he player base can actualy find more good choices now then before. From the 21 options, if you find 4 or 5 meaningfull, then you are very lucky.

4 - actualy, to me and so many others, what happends is that we play exactly the same even if we dont spend one single point, so this argument...

 

Max posted his build from before 3.0. I provided him with post 3.0 build that had exactly the same things, where nothing was lost, in fact, some things were gained. I think that is proof enough.

Max also stated that he desires some other utilities than he had access to before. Therefore, his choices expanded.

Customization of playstyle refers to Utility selection. For example, Max is very fond of Jet Boost, so he picks stuff that buff it. Other people are no so fond of Jet Boost, so they do not need to pick stuff that upgrades it just so they can get to the next tier.

[Tune]

What's the problem?

 

Are you saying you can't find 7 utilities for PvE?

 

Find 7, or find 7 good, or find 7 meaningful?