Aries_cz Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 ^ "Choices I wouldn't choose aren't real choices." Once again, unless you were playing hybrid (which developers did not want you to play, as it messed up the game), there was no real choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) Oh god, this nonsense. Look, they had to do something, because as the level cap rises, people will be sticking points into tank trees when they already have full dps trees, and dps putting points into healer trees, and eventually we would have a dps class with half a damned tank tree. Theway they are now is fine, except there needs to be some SEVERE balancing. I mean, they nerfed commandos even -more-.....if that was even possible. Not sure about DPS commandos, but healing commando is now the best... Edited January 3, 2015 by Aries_cz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedge-Antillies Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Seriously, I have more choice then before. As far as skill trees VS Disciplines go, Disciplines win hands down for me because I can now spec for more useful talents than ever before. In PVE, I can literally justify changing my bonus talents nearly every other fight. Now, them moving some of the stuff around or redesigning talents and what/not IDK. I don't like the changes to Annihilation Mara, and while the trees for the PT are fixed, its been there for so long I really would have preferred that they had left it alone (Seriously, those two abilities should have been on the other trees from the start, Thermal Dets are still in the pre-refinement stage for the era, and the top talent on AP was a fire based talent, and should have always been on the other tree.) Also, I can't say for PVP as I don't do much PVP, but among most Hardcore PVErs, All bounty hunter specs besides Gunnery/Arsenal are currently considered "The Golden Specs of 3.0". Vanguard tanking has crazy mobility and boosted AOE holding abilities, innovative Ordinance has some of the best burst in the game, in raw output pyro outdoes IO, Merc/Commando Healers currently have some of the best burst healing and are now wayyy mobile vs before. Seriously, its almost all the PVE community talks about in regards to DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmbuddah Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Not sure about DPS commandos, but healing commando is now the best...Yes, I was talking DPS commandos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedge-Antillies Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Yes, I was talking DPS commandos. You Gunnery? If so, try the DOT Spec. It is currently one of the best Damage specs in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JattaGin Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Not sure about DPS commandos, but healing commando is now the best... My commando medic hasn't been so good since approx. March or April 2012 (I don't remember when they nerfed medics so tremendously). She is now a massive healing / DPS combo and I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruskaeth Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 You Gunnery? If so, try the DOT Spec. It is currently one of the best Damage specs in the game. Gunnery is not that bad for many fights. Certainly in capable hands it should be good enough for almost anything on HM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Once again, unless you were playing hybrid (which developers did not want you to play, as it messed up the game), there was no real choice. Once again, there was "no real choice" only if you operate under the nearly solipsistic view there is only one valid criteria by which to judge a build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Once again, there was "no real choice" only if you operate under the nearly solipsistic view there is only one valid criteria by which to judge a build. Because there is only one "objective" way to judge the build - its output Judging build by how much RP they are, how how fluffy they feel or whatever are all subjective judgments. Most hybrid builds underperformed in content where they are relevant, which is PvE/PvP endgame, whatever you want (talents were absolutely not needed while leveling). Some hybrid build overperformed (usually in PvP), and these were also build specifically calculated and you were not free to choose whatever. Additionally, in PvP, some hybrids were used to game the matchmaking system (breaking the game further) To achieve the best output of any build for PvE endgame, you basically had to devote yourself to reaching the top of one tree anyway, which meant picking up many useless things on the way if you wanted or not. You ended up with few spare points that could have been placed into other trees, but you did not have enough to unlock any proper upgrades there, and to maximize the output, your choices were basically preset anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightSaberAddiCt Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I have to say, that when I saw the change to the skill trees, I was MAJOR P$%SSED. But after some time, it really isnt that game breaking for me anymore. I did like the progression of having to earn my abilities as I leveled, and YES I liked even the illusion of making my character my own. But now I really don't pay attention to it. It wasn't as game breaking as I thought it would be. The only thing that has been extremely frustrating since this expansion is the constant lag, specifically the ability lag. Now if they would just fix that I would be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Once again, there was "no real choice" only if you operate under the nearly solipsistic view there is only one valid criteria by which to judge a build. This is an example of what I was referring to in the other thread about "individualism" vs "cooperative" / "competitive" Disciplines were made to this game to fix problems in the cooperative and competitive side, not the individual side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddballEasyEight Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Because there is only one "objective" way to judge the build - its output Judging build by how much RP they are, how how fluffy they feel or whatever are all subjective judgments. Most hybrid builds underperformed in content where they are relevant, which is PvE/PvP endgame, whatever you want (talents were absolutely not needed while leveling). Some hybrid build overperformed (usually in PvP), and these were also build specifically calculated and you were not free to choose whatever. Additionally, in PvP, some hybrids were used to game the matchmaking system (breaking the game further) To achieve the best output of any build for PvE endgame, you basically had to devote yourself to reaching the top of one tree anyway, which meant picking up many useless things on the way if you wanted or not. You ended up with few spare points that could have been placed into other trees, but you did not have enough to unlock any proper upgrades there, and to maximize the output, your choices were basically preset anyway He's right, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) Because there is only one "objective" way to judge the build - its output Judging build by how much RP they are, how how fluffy they feel or whatever are all subjective judgments. So what? It's a GAME, people are supposed to ENJOY it. And the desire to maximize output is just as subjective as any other standard by which to judge a build. Some people WANT to maximize output, other people WANT other things. Calling it "objective" is just trying to elevate one want over others into a special category so that the others can be dismissed, belittled, etc. Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 So what? It's a GAME, people are supposed to ENJOY it. And the desire to maximize output is just as subjective as any other standard by which to judge a build. Some people WANT to maximize output, other people WANT other things. Calling it "objective" is just trying to elevate one want over others into a special category so that the others can be dismissed, belittled, etc. If you enjoyed clicking on talent points, or you enjoyed dragging the whole group down by your bad performance, then, sorry to tell you, you were in even smaller minority than PvPers are. You will probably respond with "but I don't group" statement, to which I will respond with that in solo gameplay, your talent point assignment did not matter much, as majority of solo gameplay can be done without assigning single talent point. However, output remains the only really measurable value, unlike other things (enjoyability, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 If you enjoyed clicking on talent points, or you enjoyed dragging the whole group down by your bad performance, then, sorry to tell you, you were in even smaller minority than PvPers are. You will probably respond with "but I don't group" statement, to which I will respond with that in solo gameplay, your talent point assignment did not matter much, as majority of solo gameplay can be done without assigning single talent point. However, output remains the only really measurable value, unlike other things (enjoyability, etc). "Clicking points" and "dragging down the group" aren't things that were good about the old system. Character-suited builds, builds that avoided disliked mechanics, builds with broad rather than focused capability, etc, were good points of the old system. This whole "but you don't need talents for solo" thing is a diversion, nothing more, drifting off into the "solo doesn't matter, the game has to be built around our precious endgame" territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 "Clicking points" and "dragging down the group" aren't things that were good about the old system. Character-suited builds, builds that avoided disliked mechanics, builds with broad rather than focused capability, etc, were good points of the old system. This whole "but you don't need talents for solo" thing is a diversion, nothing more, drifting off into the "solo doesn't matter, the game has to be built around our precious endgame" territory. First of all, I have nothing against solo play, I very much support it (except ranked Yolo Queue). But you are correct that solo play is pretty much always the last consideration when changing abilities. Broader capability drifts into the "jack of all trades, master of none" territory. Meaning that unless there was someone else in your group to compensate for that, it was dragging the group down And avoiding mechanics drifts into the "gaming the system" territory. However, I personally do not recall any talent build that would allow you to cheese some mechanic that is not possible now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelinCarnate Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I have to say, that when I saw the change to the skill trees, I was MAJOR P$%SSED. But after some time, it really isnt that game breaking for me anymore. I did like the progression of having to earn my abilities as I leveled, and YES I liked even the illusion of making my character my own. But now I really don't pay attention to it. It wasn't as game breaking as I thought it would be. The only thing that has been extremely frustrating since this expansion is the constant lag, specifically the ability lag. Now if they would just fix that I would be happy. Your rational thinking and ability to keep an open mind and change your opinion based on new information is not welcome on internet forums. What in the hell were you thinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) First of all, I have nothing against solo play, I very much support it (except ranked Yolo Queue). But you are correct that solo play is pretty much always the last consideration when changing abilities. Broader capability drifts into the "jack of all trades, master of none" territory. Meaning that unless there was someone else in your group to compensate for that, it was dragging the group down And avoiding mechanics drifts into the "gaming the system" territory. However, I personally do not recall any talent build that would allow you to cheese some mechanic that is not possible now. The whole point of some builds was to be "jack of all trades, master of none". If someone then took that build into hard group content, that's they're bad action -- but as is becoming so typical, we all end up losing the choice because some people abuse it. Avoiding mechanics is something like a player who didn't want to keep track of a bunch of "stack" counters, and conditional buffs, so they worked out their skills/talents to avoid those, concentrating on passive buffs instead. Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael_diSanto Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Many of the players that built hybrid builds did so because they never played group content, and so when soloing, being a "jack of all trades" is a huge benefit. Unfortunately that playstyle is no longer valid in TOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Many of the players that built hybrid builds did so because they never played group content, and so when soloing, being a "jack of all trades" is a huge benefit. Unfortunately that playstyle is no longer valid in TOR. Being "jack of all trades" for solo has always been fine (at least in my experience) with just the advanced class ability. Sages in TK could still heal, Guardians in Vigilance still had some defense buffs, etc. This was not really changed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) Hey John, the boss is going to buy food again today. Ok, great. One thing though....we can't have Chinese food this time. What? What's wrong with Chinese food? Well, Jack has a mild allergy to rice. Ok, so let me get this straight. There are 10 people having lunch....but we can't have Italian, French, Indian, Greek, Thai or Chinese because Jack and Bill are allergic. Yep. Sorry about that. So what do you think we should try this week? Toast. Just to illustrate the frustrations of Casual players. Though they likely make up the majority in almost all MMOs, they are usually the ones that get ignored when it comes to ability changes. Instead a small minority of players dictate the constant changes that are made, and the Casuals suffer the consequences. Unfortunately this change was no different. Getting rid of hybrid ability was one thing....but getting rid of that PLUS nerfing damage, PLUS nerfing healing, PLUS nerfing mitigation, PLUS removing certain abilities that some folks had since launch because they "didn't fit", PLUS changing how some abilities worked to favor group play or PVP..... Well, you get the picture. It is quite a bit that Casuals are being asked to accept here for the sake of a small portion of the playerbase and the company that works on the game. The frustration, IMO, is understandable. It is likely hard for Casuals to see the upside to this in the short term. Edited January 3, 2015 by LordArtemis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I'd say it's more a case of "We're all having energy shakes today, because Jack and Bill are running a marathon, and so we all need to eat what suits their marathon-prepping needs. Also, if you're not running a marathon, you're a loser, and should quit life." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 How about looking at it as instead of eating plain toast, you are now eating toast with Nutella? You still have your toast, but now it is much better, and you can put various other toppings on the Nutella-covered toast that make significant differences to how it tastes without having to sacrificing some of that chocolate goodness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightSaberAddiCt Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Your rational thinking and ability to keep an open mind and change your opinion based on new information is not welcome on internet forums. What in the hell were you thinking? What can I say....I am on a mission to civilize;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Hey John, the boss is going to buy food again today. Ok, great. One thing though....we can't have Chinese food this time. What? What's wrong with Chinese food? Well, Jack has a mild allergy to rice. Ok, so let me get this straight. There are 10 people having lunch....but we can't have Italian, French, Indian, Greek, Thai or Chinese because Jack and Bill are allergic. Yep. Sorry about that. So what do you think we should try this week? Toast. Just to illustrate the frustrations of Casual players. Though they likely make up the majority in almost all MMOs, they are usually the ones that get ignored when it comes to ability changes. Instead a small minority of players dictate the constant changes that are made, and the Casuals suffer the consequences. Unfortunately this change was no different. Getting rid of hybrid ability was one thing....but getting rid of that PLUS nerfing damage, PLUS nerfing healing, PLUS nerfing mitigation, PLUS removing certain abilities that some folks had since launch because they "didn't fit", PLUS changing how some abilities worked to favor group play or PVP..... Well, you get the picture. It is quite a bit that Casuals are being asked to accept here for the sake of a small portion of the playerbase and the company that works on the game. The frustration, IMO, is understandable. It is likely hard for Casuals to see the upside to this in the short term. That's a terrible analogy. This change barely affects anyone. Almost everyone used the same spec, hybrids were the gross minority. It's more like we're ordering food from either the Italian, French, Indian, Greek, Thai or Chinese place but we're no longer letting Jack or Bill order from that C-rated Chinese-Mexican combo place that keeps giving them the runs, because it's gross and they hog all the bathroom time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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