Developer Update: Introduction to Disciplines

[Vego_Mohenjo]

This game doesn't have difficult solo content... the "toughest" solo content in the game is probably the Heroic 2 on Oricon. With Heroic Moment cycled properly even that is nothing compared to an average Hard Mode operation or Ranked Warzone.

 

 

 

There is... but it requires a lot more $$$.

 

Not difficult for whom? This is a spectacularly elitist comment. If they make the game as difficult as you seem to want it, NO ONE will be playing but a tiny handful of elitists. It's incredibly short sighted to suggest the game needs to be so hard no one else can possibly enjoy it.

 

There is NO "proper" way to play the game. You play the way you enjoy it. That is ALL that matters. It's a game, it's meant to be FUN. That is the only thing that matters in the end.

 

As I see it, there are people who are enjoying the game as it is, and there are those that wish it was harder.

 

By catering to the latter group, you take away the fun of the former. If you cater to the former, the latter group HAS MEANS to make the game harder FOR THEMSELVES. Use less than ideal gear. Use abilities and specs that are less than ideal.

 

If the elitists have their way, there is no way for the "regular" players to enjoy the game. They can't do anything to make the game easier for themselves.

 

As such, the onus is on the "elite" players to make the game more challenging for themselves.

 

 

I've actually DONE this in many games. I Marvel Heroes Online, I play Captain America with a triangular shield, so I never throw it, making it more challenging to play him. In Lord of the Rings Online, I have on occasion used gear with NO stats, just generic "trash" gear. It made things more challenging for ME without making it impossible for others. I took responsibility for MYSELF.

 

There are those here that need to learn to do that.

[Veiled_Ronin]

I have my reservations about this. Save the "class identity" nonsense, that's a fancy way of saying dumbed-down. People will complain about the skills no matter what happens, but simplifying them in order to give players more of their class feel early seems like a cosmetic adjustment, and not a justifiable reason to do away with the current system. If the entire point was to do away with restrictions within the skill builds of advanced classes, the developers are trying to reinvent the wheel and are failing. Within the first month of Disciplines being live, the players will figure out the best combinations of Utilities for each role on each advanced class, and that will be the prescribed way to play for the vast majority of players. I believe the bigger part of the player base is interested in end game raiding, and once the "premium" builds have been worked out, we will once again see a strict adherence to those builds. Thus no amount of freedom within the talent builds will actually be found.

 

This seems like a waste of time and resources, pacification for the free-to-play gamers. I feel that this change is designed to keep those who are just "testing the waters" interested and excited. I understand it in terms of the benefit to the free-to-play --> subscriber shift that the developers need and want, and as my desire is to play this game as long as possible, I accept it for those reasons. But please don't dress this up as a beneficial change for all players, as this will only change the experience of the novice and casual player types. If I were offered a choice, if I could select whether I wanted to use the Skill Tree or Discipline method, that would be fine. If it was a selectable decision, I would be fine. But this is impossible, monetarily.

 

I understand the need to retain as many casual and novice players as possible, and I understand the benefit of a character being fun and exciting and versatile to play early on, but this is a pointless change for the majority of subscribers. I see this as strictly for the purpose of snagging more subscribers, and while that is an inevitable and necessary factor in development, I don't see that it has a purpose for end game raiders and PvPers. Just my two cents.

[Max_Killjoy]

 

I have my reservations about this. Save the "class identity" nonsense, that's a fancy way of saying dumbed-down. People will complain about the skills no matter what happens, but simplifying them in order to give players more of their class feel early seems like a cosmetic adjustment, and not a justifiable reason to do away with the current system. If the entire point was to do away with restrictions within the skill builds of advanced classes, the developers are trying to reinvent the wheel and are failing. Within the first month of Disciplines being live, the players will figure out the best combinations of Utilities for each role on each advanced class, and that will be the prescribed way to play for the vast majority of players. I believe the bigger part of the player base is interested in end game raiding, and once the "premium" builds have been worked out, we will once again see a strict adherence to those builds. Thus no amount of freedom within the talent builds will actually be found.

 

This seems like a waste of time and resources, pacification for the free-to-play gamers. I feel that this change is designed to keep those who are just "testing the waters" interested and excited. I understand it in terms of the benefit to the free-to-play --> subscriber shift that the developers need and want, and as my desire is to play this game as long as possible, I accept it for those reasons. But please don't dress this up as a beneficial change for all players, as this will only change the experience of the novice and casual player types. If I were offered a choice, if I could select whether I wanted to use the Skill Tree or Discipline method, that would be fine. If it was a selectable decision, I would be fine. But this is impossible, monetarily.

 

I understand the need to retain as many casual and novice players as possible, and I understand the benefit of a character being fun and exciting and versatile to play early on, but this is a pointless change for the majority of subscribers. I see this as strictly for the purpose of snagging more subscribers, and while that is an inevitable and necessary factor in development, I don't see that it has a purpose for end game raiders and PvPers. Just my two cents.

 

 

From what we've seen here, at least, it's the raiders and PvPers most in favor of this change, due to the dislike of hybrids that's common in those segments.

[Mozepy]

Ok... I'm totally lost here. How are the mechanics of the game affecting your RP??????? Because if they are.. well I'm sorry to tell you but Idon,t wanna RP with you.

 

Apparently you are not an RPer. Some people actually RP the entire character. The skills you select represent your character's progression as what ever class they are. If what your character does as a Jedi Knight, for example, doesn't come into your RP then what are you doing? ERP? As a player you should have a choice on how your character progresses, what abilities your charter learns and which get buffed and which don't, because that is how a character would really progress.

 

The new system is one click specialization. It's not only dumbed down, it's just plain dumb.

[azudelphi]

Not difficult for whom? This is a spectacularly elitist comment. If they make the game as difficult as you seem to want it, NO ONE will be playing but a tiny handful of elitists. It's incredibly short sighted to suggest the game needs to be so hard no one else can possibly enjoy it.

 

There is NO "proper" way to play the game. You play the way you enjoy it. That is ALL that matters. It's a game, it's meant to be FUN. That is the only thing that matters in the end.

 

As I see it, there are people who are enjoying the game as it is, and there are those that wish it was harder.

 

By catering to the latter group, you take away the fun of the former. If you cater to the former, the latter group HAS MEANS to make the game harder FOR THEMSELVES. Use less than ideal gear. Use abilities and specs that are less than ideal.

 

If the elitists have their way, there is no way for the "regular" players to enjoy the game. They can't do anything to make the game easier for themselves.

 

As such, the onus is on the "elite" players to make the game more challenging for themselves.

 

 

I've actually DONE this in many games. I Marvel Heroes Online, I play Captain America with a triangular shield, so I never throw it, making it more challenging to play him. In Lord of the Rings Online, I have on occasion used gear with NO stats, just generic "trash" gear. It made things more challenging for ME without making it impossible for others. I took responsibility for MYSELF.

 

There are those here that need to learn to do that.

 

What do you believe is more difficult than that heroic for to solo?

 

And I didn't say, "give more hard content!' I just said the game is fairly easy for solo'ing and was implying the game's real challenges tend to come from group content. Which makes sense, it adds a new dimension... there are simply challenges that can be created around 4-16 person cooperation that can't be done in a solo environment.

Edited October 14, 2014 by azudelphi

[Ryuku-sama]

Apparently you are not an RPer. Some people actually RP the entire character. The skills you select represent your character's progression as what ever class they are. If what your character does as a Jedi Knight, for example, doesn't come into your RP then what are you doing? ERP? As a player you should have a choice on how your character progresses, what abilities your charter learns and which get buffed and which don't, because that is how a character would really progress.

 

The new system is one click specialization. It's not only dumbed down, it's just plain dumb.

 

Well.. If what you're doing as a player is what your character is doing in RP.. Nice we now hve a few hundreds thousands

Heroes of Tython who defeated The Emperor

, another few hundreds thousands of

Cypher IX

... You see my point I guess??? What actually happens in the story Bioware is telling us shouldn't affect our RP beyond smply following its timeline.

And as far as ability goes.... Considering how lightsaber forms are just screwed up, how Jedi powers makes no sense most of the time, how commando's assault cannon always end up looking like frenken-cannon, how vanguard are melee'ing everything with a fricking rifle, how sniper can't fire a fricking damn at more than 35m..... I don,t think I need to name more inconsistency far worst than just a few skills you you have but don't want or a few you want but don't have....

[Jaedelyia]

Not difficult for whom? This is a spectacularly elitist comment. If they make the game as difficult as you seem to want it, NO ONE will be playing but a tiny handful of elitists. It's incredibly short sighted to suggest the game needs to be so hard no one else can possibly enjoy it.

Chill out, relax, it's just a forum thread.

What is true, is that solo content is piss easy due to inexistent mechanism in fight. I, for one, am not asking for artificial difficulty such as blaster-sponge enemies that hit harder and have more health point. But I would be all for more complexity in fight. Sometime a time-based puzzle, sometime interesting boss mechanisms that require some attention and skills, etc. Something that require focus, not better gear.

 

It's very disappointing that the most difficult thing to do in solo is to be careful enough to press "interrupt" every now and then when he goes big nuke or big heal.

[Qi_gong]

Well i will wait and see. Hoping it won't spoil things. i am relatively new to mmo, nearly a year. i have been enjoying the challenge of tree. Hope it is not just making it too easy, no challenge . also hope it is not just gonna push PVE more PVP , ? I personally am not so into PVP , but maybe a minority so have to go with flow of majority to some degree . But the new story and planets sound's like an up ;-)

[LifeVirus]

The first page is entirely positive comments, I smell something fishy lol. As somebody that has played EA games, I have never seen their communities overwhelmingly optimistic or positive about anything ever.

 

That being said, I will reserve judgement until I actually understand the system more. This could definitely go either way, but so far it seems similar to the way WoW dumbed everything down with more utility features instead of just picking a few abilities (some of which were just as necessary end game as previous talents). Please don't oversimplify. I like a little bit of complexity. I want my choices to be more thought provoking and less number-driven (do I need to run faster in this fight or do I need shorter range on a closing ability like charge, etc.)

[LifeVirus]

Apparently you are not an RPer. Some people actually RP the entire character. The skills you select represent your character's progression as what ever class they are. If what your character does as a Jedi Knight, for example, doesn't come into your RP then what are you doing? ERP? As a player you should have a choice on how your character progresses, what abilities your charter learns and which get buffed and which don't, because that is how a character would really progress.

 

The new system is one click specialization. It's not only dumbed down, it's just plain dumb.

 

 

Frankly, some of us who actually raid and do flashpoints were tired of carrying people who have no idea what they are doing or, better yet, avoid key talents because they feel like it would be part of their character to stack Force Slow instead of taking an essential ability. These utilities seem to be things like speed boost on escape abilities, larger AoEs/AoE slows, and the like. That seems more variation than before, and I like not having to deal with some half-baked hybrid build or kid that didn't take the ability his entire specialization was building towards because he felt like a real Jedi would invest every point possible into stuns that don't work on actual bosses and also that one healing ability half way up the other tree. Before, you either took a cookie-cutter build or you were a hindrance. Now, it seems they give you the cookie-cutter build and let you pick the flavor abilities which seems like an increase in functional customization to me.

 

Sure, WoW did dumb down its talent system, but when it was all said and done, there wasn't much of a noticeable change to how you fought end game. It was still a triumph when you killed a new boss, and sometimes, some of the leeway in your utility abilities made a difference.

[Gleneagle]

Is KOTOR a MMO?? Last news, it was a single player game.

No no, rest assured that KotOR is an indoctrination system intended to nurture dependency and suppress independence. Individuals are led along an illusory path that seems to celebrate individualism in their entertainment, then at various points will slam the player's face into carefully orchestrated obstacles that will punish individualism until the player humiliates themselves, impaled on a cruel spike of losses, until they concede that they are nothing without embracing the corporate team ethic and become subservient to the hive mind. This advanced industrio-psychological tactic is thought to marginally increase player retention for addictive personality types who actually care about a story's plot. It is just one more instrument of conditioning. Edited October 14, 2014 by Gleneagle

[Max_Killjoy]

Frankly, some of us who actually raid and do flashpoints were tired of carrying people who have no idea what they are doing or, better yet, avoid key talents because they feel like it would be part of their character to stack Force Slow instead of taking an essential ability. These utilities seem to be things like speed boost on escape abilities, larger AoEs/AoE slows, and the like. That seems more variation than before, and I like not having to deal with some half-baked hybrid build or kid that didn't take the ability his entire specialization was building towards because he felt like a real Jedi would invest every point possible into stuns that don't work on actual bosses and also that one healing ability half way up the other tree. Before, you either took a cookie-cutter build or you were a hindrance. Now, it seems they give you the cookie-cutter build and let you pick the flavor abilities which seems like an increase in functional customization to me.

 

Sure, WoW did dumb down its talent system, but when it was all said and done, there wasn't much of a noticeable change to how you fought end game. It was still a triumph when you killed a new boss, and sometimes, some of the leeway in your utility abilities made a difference.

 

There was a change, however, in how characters were built, and that wasn't good for WoW.

 

On to SWToR and the new Disciplines system...

 

It seems we can't count on a small minority of players to police themselves in choosing between an RP-based but clearly wonky build, or an endgame/PvP qualified build. AND, it seems we can't count on a different small minority of players to choose a solid build they like and stick with it, instead of chasing FotM.

 

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

It's a shame that Bioware didn't (not couldn't, DIDN'T) come up with a way to let those of us who don't want a cookie-cutter "identity" or like to find a balance between maximized-effect and character-appropriate in a build keep doing that, while also eliminating the FotM rat-race and the just plain bad builds.

 

It's aggravating to have invested this much time and energy into a game, only to have something this fundamental changed -- if this had been the system from the start, I probably wouldn't have gotten into the game like I have.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[plagueborn]

I was so sad to read this. When WoW did this, that's when I really started losing interest. I hope they do better with this, because I was happy playing it the way it was.

[DGSephiro]

Looking forward to this update!

[Vember]

I'm just looking forward to some of the other classes' Discipline previews....seriously. When are we getting them?

[Ryuku-sama]

I'm just looking forward to some of the other classes' Discipline previews....seriously. When are we getting them?

 

Hopefully before November 30th

[Pourekos]

I was so sad to read this. When WoW did this, that's when I really started losing interest. I hope they do better with this, because I was happy playing it the way it was.

 

Pretty much this. When they revealed that the expansion was going to be Revan-centric, their PR worked and I did re-sub after a very long time, fully intending to buy the expansion as soon as it was on pre-order. But now I am really really not convinced simply because of the Disciplines. Call it "extremely bad taste from WoW" or whatever you want, but I only have negative feelings for such changes in the name of "balance" that is never achieved anyway.

[Max_Killjoy]

Pretty much this. When they revealed that the expansion was going to be Revan-centric, their PR worked and I did re-sub after a very long time, fully intending to buy the expansion as soon as it was on pre-order. But now I am really really not convinced simply because of the Disciplines. Call it "extremely bad taste from WoW" or whatever you want, but I only have negative feelings for such changes in the name of "balance" that is never achieved anyway.

 

That's the other thing that people are forgetting from when WoW made the same move -- it didn't change anything.

 

Balance issues and constant class tweaks continued at the same rate, certain segments of the playerbase continued to complain about class balance at the same volume, and volume, as before, and nothing actually improved.

[Gleneagle]

My understanding is they tried to make the change as seamless as possible. The objective was to better facilitate the creation of new content beyond what we have. Apparently 50-55 content was extremely difficult to produce to BioWare's standards so something had to give. If Discipline does the job and we can look forward to new content then it sounds good to me, especially if we aren't losing much of anything by it.

[Bomberman]

That's the other thing that people are forgetting from when WoW made the same move -- it didn't change anything.

 

Balance issues and constant class tweaks continued at the same rate, certain segments of the playerbase continued to complain about class balance at the same volume, and volume, as before, and nothing actually improved.

 

And yet you keep comparing this change to WoW's change when

1. The Discipline system isn't even out yet and to make a proper decision of whether its good or bad can't be made till it is out.

2. They are both made by different developers so have a different way of doing things. You don't think Bioware saw what Blizzard did with WoW's system and took inspiration but wanted to avoid the issues they had? and

3. There had to be a change somewhere down the line because adding more levels (points to use and abilities to get etc) starts to destroy the whole tree system and make things even more unbalanced and unwieldy for the devs to fix and a whole host of other complications.

With the new system things become a bit easier for them and they can then put more time into bringing us more content at a much better rate (new Operations, Flashpoints, PvP Warzones etc).

Just because this stamps out hybrid builds as a result doesn't make this a mistake. Its a mmorpg and you are taking on a ROLE. Whether that be a role as a Jedi Knight or Imperial Agent or even as a Tank or Healer you are fulfilling a ROLE.

There is still versatility within the new Discipline system its just a different kind. That doesn't make it 'dumbed' down as some people put it. You just have a different set of skills to pick, tweak and experiment with.

Anyways this is just my 2 cents and I'm not trying to attack anyone by my comment.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Bomberman

[Fsutamu]

I was so sad to read this. When WoW did this, that's when I really started losing interest. I hope they do better with this, because I was happy playing it the way it was.

 

Pretty much this. The changes to WoW pretty much killed it for me. ie "Crouching Tiger, Hidden crap", Murder of Crows, Stampede all screamed "hey we cant figure balance and game play out so here's more crap to mash". I'm holding out hope they can figure it out but to me it just seems like we will start the same vicious cycle over again.

[Max_Killjoy]

And yet you keep comparing this change to WoW's change when

1. The Discipline system isn't even out yet and to make a proper decision of whether its good or bad can't be made till it is out.

2. They are both made by different developers so have a different way of doing things. You don't think Bioware saw what Blizzard did with WoW's system and took inspiration but wanted to avoid the issues they had? and

3. There had to be a change somewhere down the line because adding more levels (points to use and abilities to get etc) starts to destroy the whole tree system and make things even more unbalanced and unwieldy for the devs to fix and a whole host of other complications.

With the new system things become a bit easier for them and they can then put more time into bringing us more content at a much better rate (new Operations, Flashpoints, PvP Warzones etc).

Just because this stamps out hybrid builds as a result doesn't make this a mistake. Its a mmorpg and you are taking on a ROLE. Whether that be a role as a Jedi Knight or Imperial Agent or even as a Tank or Healer you are fulfilling a ROLE.

There is still versatility within the new Discipline system its just a different kind. That doesn't make it 'dumbed' down as some people put it. You just have a different set of skills to pick, tweak and experiment with.

Anyways this is just my 2 cents and I'm not trying to attack anyone by my comment.

 

Coming from the broader world of RPGs, going back to before the computer RPG even existed, the idea that role-playing is just being given a script and told "here's your part, memorize it" strikes me as very stunted and sad.

 

While MMORPGs in particular have lagged behind or even shambled along, the broader RPG world also branched away from the old D&D model of classes and levels, of telling players "here is your role and here is what you'll get when you progress, enjoy".

 

Several people have done a civil and thorough job of explaining the stumbling block that the current system represents, and this is why I'm not arguing that nothing at all needs to change.

 

What I'm arguing is that the replacement of the current system did not necessitate the complete elimination of the ability to get out of the box and do something other than "shut your mouth and know your role". I'm arguing what Bioware did here is throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[PBoba]

Take your (hybrid) build for a few minutes. With 5 new levels, they would need to add another row of meaningless talent at the bottom to try to keep hybrids at bay. Bioware would do it whether you like it or not. This would make your hybrid impossible anyway... But it would make every character unefficient before level 25. Next level increase would be 30. Then 35 . And 40..... You see where I am going. This is what they did for 2.0 and RotHC. And what they would have done without the overhaul. You would have lost your hybrids both ways. But at least in this one, the leveling process won't become more painful as level increases go.

 

This is it, exactly. With 5 more points of useless talents going into the bottom of every tree, every hybrid was entirely dead anyway. And the already inferior trees would have been even worse.

[Max_Killjoy]

This is it, exactly. With 5 more points of useless talents going into the bottom of every tree, every hybrid was entirely dead anyway. And the already inferior trees would have been even worse.

 

And some people in these threads have done a good job of explaining that aspect of it.

 

Even acknowledging that some form of change was necessary, that doesn't mean that eliminating options for some form of mixed build was also necessary.

 

Personally, there are a lot of trees where I'm simply not at all interested in the top 1/3 or 1/2. While many people are commenting on the "wasted points" they're forced to spend on the current trees, the new system is going to end up forcing a lot of "wasted points" at the tops of trees on someone like me.

[azudelphi]

And some people in these threads have done a good job of explaining that aspect of it.

 

Even acknowledging that some form of change was necessary, that doesn't mean that eliminating options for some form of mixed build was also necessary.

 

Personally, there are a lot of trees where I'm simply not at all interested in the top 1/3 or 1/2. While many people are commenting on the "wasted points" they're forced to spend on the current trees, the new system is going to end up forcing a lot of "wasted points" at the tops of trees on someone like me.

 

What he's saying is that you weren't going to have your mixed build anyways. If you have 5 more skill points and Innervate requires 5 more skill points to get and Force In Balance requires 5 more points to get to, you have to sacrifice something to keep your build.

 

Also seems unfair to say the top-tier points are wasted. Each Discipline gets a new ability at the top.... for example, a Corruption gets a multi-target Heal-on-damage-taken. Lightning gets a powerful short cast hit that increases your force regen. Madness gets a life-steal and an upgraded version of Crushing Darkness. Might be worth testing and trying before saying they are a waste. And this is just their Livestream notes; there are additional synergies with other parts of the rotations and skills along the Discipline.

 

Additionally, and I mean no disrespect by it, your statement regarding top tier points being a problem indicates you need to do some more research on these Disciplines before you condemn them. I say this because it seems you are unaware that current top tier abilities are being moved into the mid-20's and the core identifying ability is given the moment you take your advanced class and pick your Discipline.

Edited October 14, 2014 by azudelphi