Developer Update: Introduction to Disciplines

[agamemnon-]

First off, thanks for admitting why you are doing it....balancing talent trees is a lot of work. At least you did not insult the player base by trying to feed us the WOW spiel about how much more fun it would be if all our toons were cookie cutter carbon copies, saving us from wasting our time customizing our toons.

 

I'm no great programmer, but I dabble a little, mostly just mods and such. I understand all too well how the slightest change can unbalance everything and turn a smooth program into a disaster, requiring hundreds or thousands of man hours of coding and play testing to make it all work again, but that's why we buy the game every month, with our subscription fee, instead of a one time purchase.

 

I will give it a chance, but if it is anything like the WOW system where you have a total of six choices to develop your character, I will unsub SWOTOR just as fast as WOW. WOW lost a third of it's subscribers, IMHO, because they dumbed the game down to 'make it fun'. They lost me, despite sixteen level 90 toons, years of playing, and thousands of raids. I switched to SWOTOR, because it wasn't a dumbed down talentless game.

 

What worries me is the part of the post where you said you don't want people gaming the talent system to come up with new rotations, combinations, play styles. My favorite part of the game is finding new strategies, rotations, play styles, finding ways to stand out from the crowd. I love the perk of a new talent or ability every level, it keeps me coming back for more.

 

I WILL NOT PLAY a game where every toon is exactly the same, has the same rotation, the same five abilties, the same five basic stats, the same five automatically assigned abilities. MMO PVP is fun when you go into a fight never knowing what you're up against. Arcade PVP is boring as hell, because it is just a matter of who has the best reaction speed and can time their GCDs better than the other toon.

 

I know some people prefer that style, just jump in and play, and that's fine. That's their opinion, it's a matter of taste, and their opinion is no more or less valid than mine. That being said, if that is the direction this star cruiser is heading, it will be time for me to find another ride.

 

Please don't get stuck on the balance bandwagon. I don't want boring, bland, spiceless, balanced toons. Variety in MMOS, just like life, is the stuff that keeps me coming back. The stuff that keeps me paying $15 dollars a month.

 

/e Crosses Lightsabers, /e Hopes this isn't a train wreck

 

We need to all stop pretending like there is a great deal of customization in the game, because there isn't. Everyone of one class looks up the latest info on Dulfy, Noxxic, or the forums (which do not vary much at all) and uses what is posted (in the case of the forums, whatever the general consensus is). To say we don't have cookie cutter builds already is just asinine and wishful thinking.

 

PvP is no different.

[tanktest]

really hate to say this if you want to see this in action just play wow this is there version of what WoW has been doing for year now, i just hope its better .

[tanktest]

First off, thanks for admitting why you are doing it....balancing talent trees is a lot of work. At least you did not insult the player base by trying to feed us the WOW spiel about how much more fun it would be if all our toons were cookie cutter carbon copies, saving us from wasting our time customizing our toons.

 

I'm no great programmer, but I dabble a little, mostly just mods and such. I understand all too well how the slightest change can unbalance everything and turn a smooth program into a disaster, requiring hundreds or thousands of man hours of coding and play testing to make it all work again, but that's why we buy the game every month, with our subscription fee, instead of a one time purchase.

 

I will give it a chance, but if it is anything like the WOW system where you have a total of six choices to develop your character, I will unsub SWOTOR just as fast as WOW. WOW lost a third of it's subscribers, IMHO, because they dumbed the game down to 'make it fun'. They lost me, despite sixteen level 90 toons, years of playing, and thousands of raids. I switched to SWOTOR, because it wasn't a dumbed down talentless game.

 

What worries me is the part of the post where you said you don't want people gaming the talent system to come up with new rotations, combinations, play styles. My favorite part of the game is finding new strategies, rotations, play styles, finding ways to stand out from the crowd. I love the perk of a new talent or ability every level, it keeps me coming back for more.

 

I WILL NOT PLAY a game where every toon is exactly the same, has the same rotation, the same five abilties, the same five basic stats, the same five automatically assigned abilities. MMO PVP is fun when you go into a fight never knowing what you're up against. Arcade PVP is boring as hell, because it is just a matter of who has the best reaction speed and can time their GCDs better than the other toon.

 

I know some people prefer that style, just jump in and play, and that's fine. That's their opinion, it's a matter of taste, and their opinion is no more or less valid than mine. That being said, if that is the direction this star cruiser is heading, it will be time for me to find another ride.

 

Please don't get stuck on the balance bandwagon. I don't want boring, bland, spiceless, balanced toons. Variety in MMOS, just like life, is the stuff that keeps me coming back. The stuff that keeps me paying $15 dollars a month.

 

/e Crosses Lightsabers, /e Hopes this isn't a train wreck

 

 

 

Try Rift now that is has some tress i don't even want to to mess with .

 

 

well any way well see how this works a lot won't like it i can see that now . this was one reason a lot stopped playing WoW . just confirming what hes saying a lot left wow because of this, hes right .

Edited October 12, 2014 by tanktest

[Max_Killjoy]

We need to all stop pretending like there is a great deal of customization in the game, because there isn't. Everyone of one class looks up the latest info on Dulfy, Noxxic, or the forums (which do not vary much at all) and uses what is posted (in the case of the forums, whatever the general consensus is). To say we don't have cookie cutter builds already is just asinine and wishful thinking.

 

PvP is no different.

 

Odd. I've never looked up a build on any website for any SWTOR character, and I never did it for any WoW characters before the Great Dumbing happened there either.

 

Between the fact that I don't care how other people are building their characters, and the fact that the skills all have tooltips that make it clear what they do, it's never been necessary.

[Chrissymom]

Personally I like the skill trees as they are. I am disappointed to see them changing so drastically and having so much choice taken away, I think it is unfair generally, however it will be interesting to see whether this wrecks the game or indeed makes It better, time will tell, I hope the game survives it, I have become quite fond of it and my characters.

[Trollokdamus]

this was one reason a lot stopped playing WoW . just confirming what hes saying a lot left wow because of this, hes right .

How can you "confirm" something you can't possibly know? Did you ask each and every leaving player about the reasoning behind their decision? Or maybe you are a Blizzard employee who has hard data at his disposal? I think not.

 

and having so much choice taken away,

What choice are you talking about? If anything, the new system is giving you more choices, not taking them away.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Trollokdamus

[Agonus]

So if I have this right, they're taking out the skill tree system because having so many options for what skills to pick each time to you gain a level is a bad thing. Partially due to most min/max players picking flavor of the month or optimized/hybrid builds that the dev's never anticipated and don't like developing content for?

 

But they still want players to have customizable characters. Because there's so much variety in end-game builds.

 

So with this discipline system, advanced class leveling will be basically turned into a railshooter system where you are given most powers in your discipline automatically, with a fraction of the options you previously had?

 

And now another MMO is getting a massive overhaul in the name of balancing the classes against each other.

 

Bravo PVPers, you've done it again.

[Max_Killjoy]

So if I have this right, they're taking out the skill tree system because having so many options for what skills to pick each time to you gain a level is a bad thing. Partially due to most min/max players picking flavor of the month or optimized/hybrid builds that the dev's never anticipated and don't like developing content for?

 

But they still want players to have customizable characters. Because there's so much variety in end-game builds.

 

So with this discipline system, advanced class leveling will be basically turned into a railshooter system where you are given most powers in your discipline automatically, with a fraction of the options you previously had?

 

And now another MMO is getting a massive overhaul in the name of balancing the classes against each other.

 

Bravo PVPers, you've done it again.

 

Yeap.

 

 

What choice are you talking about? If anything, the new system is giving you more choices, not taking them away.

 

Or at least, that's how they're selling it. We've already verified looking at the Sorcerer example that a lot of previously possible combinations are being taken away -- and you will be FORCED to take powers that are currently at the top of the trees, even if you're not interested in them and previously never took them under the current system.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Max_Killjoy]

You'll be given core skills and abilities automatically. Everything that is not a part of the core skills and abilities will end up in the utility section - these are what you customize your character with. In other words, everything that you would take asap anyway will be given automatically, however everything that is not that obvious will have to be chosen by you.

 

And if you didn't take them ASAP -- didn't rush to max out a single tree? Anyone who didn't care about maxing out a single tree will be screwed by this new system.

 

It's only under the assumption that everyone rushed to max out one tree that the claim that choice under the current system makes any sense at all, or the claim that the new system will give more choice holds any water.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Delta_V]

First off, thanks for admitting why you are doing it....balancing talent trees is a lot of work. At least you did not insult the player base by trying to feed us the WOW spiel about how much more fun it would be if all our toons were cookie cutter carbon copies, saving us from wasting our time customizing our toons.

 

I'm no great programmer, but I dabble a little, mostly just mods and such. I understand all too well how the slightest change can unbalance everything and turn a smooth program into a disaster, requiring hundreds or thousands of man hours of coding and play testing to make it all work again, but that's why we buy the game every month, with our subscription fee, instead of a one time purchase.

 

I will give it a chance, but if it is anything like the WOW system where you have a total of six choices to develop your character, I will unsub SWOTOR just as fast as WOW. WOW lost a third of it's subscribers, IMHO, because they dumbed the game down to 'make it fun'. They lost me, despite sixteen level 90 toons, years of playing, and thousands of raids. I switched to SWOTOR, because it wasn't a dumbed down talentless game.

 

What worries me is the part of the post where you said you don't want people gaming the talent system to come up with new rotations, combinations, play styles. My favorite part of the game is finding new strategies, rotations, play styles, finding ways to stand out from the crowd. I love the perk of a new talent or ability every level, it keeps me coming back for more.

 

I WILL NOT PLAY a game where every toon is exactly the same, has the same rotation, the same five abilties, the same five basic stats, the same five automatically assigned abilities. MMO PVP is fun when you go into a fight never knowing what you're up against. Arcade PVP is boring as hell, because it is just a matter of who has the best reaction speed and can time their GCDs better than the other toon.

 

I know some people prefer that style, just jump in and play, and that's fine. That's their opinion, it's a matter of taste, and their opinion is no more or less valid than mine. That being said, if that is the direction this star cruiser is heading, it will be time for me to find another ride.

 

Please don't get stuck on the balance bandwagon. I don't want boring, bland, spiceless, balanced toons. Variety in MMOS, just like life, is the stuff that keeps me coming back. The stuff that keeps me paying $15 dollars a month.

 

/e Crosses Lightsabers, /e Hopes this isn't a train wreck

 

If you watch the Livestream, you'll see that the gameplay isn't being "dumbed down" at all. Selecting your skills has been streamlined, with the core abilities for a spec being granted automatically, but the actual rotations are mostly unchanged. Every toon is not going to be exactly the same - there will still be 8 Advanced Classes per Faction with 3 Disciplines each, and each of the 24 Disciplines will still have its own rotation. Sure, you won't be able to create your own hybrid builds anymore, but in competitive PVP or endgame PVE, people mostly run full specs, and they only run hybrids if they are more powerful than the full specs (such as the DotSmash Sentinel build that used to exist), which means they are a balance issue and need to be fixed anyway. And the rotations are not changing significantly from what they are now; it's just the active abilities for the spec are given to you automatically instead of selecting them from the tree. A spec that uses 10 abilities in their rotation now will likely use 10 abilities in the new system.

[Max_Killjoy]

If you watch the Livestream, you'll see that the gameplay isn't being "dumbed down" at all. Selecting your skills has been streamlined, with the core abilities for a spec being granted automatically,

 

(Emphasis added.)

 

That's pretty much the definition of "dumbing down".

[Ryuku-sama]

(Emphasis added.)

 

That's pretty much the definition of "dumbing down".

 

Sorry it isn,t. The rotation will still have a certain skill floor to be used correctly... With the number of pyro merc I've seen using Railshot every 6 secs (far less than those no doing it) the spec won,t be dumbed down...

[Trollokdamus]

And if you didn't take them ASAP -- didn't rush to max out a single tree? Anyone who didn't care about maxing out a single tree will be screwed by this new system.

 

It's only under the assumption that everyone rushed to max out one tree that the claim that choice under the current system makes any sense at all, or the claim that the new system will give more choice holds any water.

If you didn't rush to max out a tree, then you were gimping yourself and playing the way BW didn't intend you to play, sorry. Hybrids were never a legitimate playstyle and they were never supported by BW. While i understand your frustration if you were playing a hybrid, i also understand why BW sacrificed them in order to achieve their goals.

 

(Emphasis added.)

 

That's pretty much the definition of "dumbing down".

"Dumbing down - the act of taking a product and watering down elements of it to make it appeal to a broader mass market."

This is not the case here since the actual gameplay will stay relatively the same, it's not watered down in any way. The only thing that is changing is the approach to how you get most of the skills and abilities.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Trollokdamus

[Max_Killjoy]

If you didn't rush to max out a tree, then you were gimping yourself and playing the way BW didn't intend you to play, sorry. Hybrids were never a legitimate playstyle and they were never supported by BW. While i understand your frustration if you were playing a hybrid, i also understand why BW sacrificed them in order to achieve their goals.

 

I don't care what Bioware supposedly "intended", the choice to play a hybrid or blend was there, and now for many of the previously possible combinations, it's going to be gone.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with avoiding higher-tier skills that don't interest you. Example, the Sorcerer, I didn't really see anything that appealing about any of the top skills on any of the trees.

 

Unless you're one of those hypercompetitive twerps who obsesses over the last 0.5% of possible damage, heals, whatever, there were plenty of blended builds that weren't gimped -- especially for those players who were more concerned with solo and 2+/4+ content than with getting sucked into the PvP/endgame rat-race.

 

"Dumbing down - the act of taking a product and watering down elements of it to make it appeal to a broader mass market."

This is not the case here since the actual gameplay will stay relatively the same, it's not watered down in any way. The only thing that is changing is the approach to how you get most of the skills and abilities.

Sorry it isn,t. The rotation will still have a certain skill floor to be used correctly... With the number of pyro merc I've seen using Railshot every 6 secs (far less than those no doing it) the spec won,t be dumbed down...

 

I don't give a rat's butt about "rotation" in this discussion. Choice is being taken away from the player, in favor of force-feeding them a spec.

 

Dumbed. Down.

[Trollokdamus]

The flaw in your argument is you consider hybrids a legitimate playstyle, so by removing them BW is watering down the game by taking away a choice of playing a hybrid. And i would agree with you to a degree, but as i said already, they are not a legitimate playstyle according to BW and are not supported by them. Hybrids were nothing but tolerated to a small degree (i heard of some way too OP hybrid builds being nerfed).

Now, however, hybrids hamper the evolution of one of the game's systems, so they have to go for the greater good of the game.

Yeah, you can reply with "I don't care if hybrids were legitimate or not, i want them to stay!", and as i said i'd understand your frustration, but thing is it's not up to you to decide, the decision is already made, so the sooner you accept the change the better it is for you.

[BjoernR]

This is awesome, another wow killer feature! Nice!

[slukslaksla]

You didn't play wow or you are interested by paint drying. The choices WoW gave you were peripheral, they had little to do with how you played.

 

How about a system with actual choices instead having no choices?

 

Ever played KOTOR ? It had a Nice skill/power system

[Ryuku-sama]

Ever played KOTOR ? It had a Nice skill/power system

 

Is KOTOR a MMO?? Last news, it was a single player game.

[Agonus]

I don't care what Bioware supposedly "intended", the choice to play a hybrid or blend was there, and now for many of the previously possible combinations, it's going to be gone.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with avoiding higher-tier skills that don't interest you. Example, the Sorcerer, I didn't really see anything that appealing about any of the top skills on any of the trees.

 

Unless you're one of those hypercompetitive twerps who obsesses over the last 0.5% of possible damage, heals, whatever, there were plenty of blended builds that weren't gimped -- especially for those players who were more concerned with solo and 2+/4+ content than with getting sucked into the PvP/endgame rat-race.

 

 

 

 

I don't give a rat's butt about "rotation" in this discussion. Choice is being taken away from the player, in favor of force-feeding them a spec.

 

Dumbed. Down.

 

I've played the game since CoH was killed and I NEVER heard about this "rotation" garbage until like 2 months ago. And that was from someone complaining that he didn't like the concept either. I hear talk of the best gear all the time. And talk of which trees to focus on even more than that.

 

What bugs me is that I'm now being forced to adjust my casual, PVE centered, don't care about endgame or PVP playstyle to the "standards" set by min/maxers who are arguably only in this game FOR the endgame.

[Max_Killjoy]

The flaw in your argument is you consider hybrids a legitimate playstyle, so by removing them BW is watering down the game by taking away a choice of playing a hybrid. And i would agree with you to a degree, but as i said already, they are not a legitimate playstyle according to BW and are not supported by them. Hybrids were nothing but tolerated to a small degree (i heard of some way too OP hybrid builds being nerfed).

Now, however, hybrids hamper the evolution of one of the game's systems, so they have to go for the greater good of the game.

Yeah, you can reply with "I don't care if hybrids were legitimate or not, i want them to stay!", and as i said i'd understand your frustration, but thing is it's not up to you to decide, the decision is already made, so the sooner you accept the change the better it is for you.

 

I may just ignore the "disciplines" entirely for my characters that had blended builds.

 

I'm that disgusted by this nonsense.

[Max_Killjoy]

I've played the game since CoH was killed and I NEVER heard about this "rotation" garbage until like 2 months ago. And that was from someone complaining that he didn't like the concept either. I hear talk of the best gear all the time. And talk of which trees to focus on even more than that.

 

What bugs me is that I'm now being forced to adjust my casual, PVE centered, don't care about endgame or PVP playstyle to the "standards" set by min/maxers who are arguably only in this game FOR the endgame.

 

Exactly.

 

Elsewhere in the forum there's a thread detailing how analysis of game after game shows that the hardcore PvP/endgame players are a distinct minority -- and yet they demand and get changes like this that screw the rest of us, and go on and on about how MMOs are all about them, and everything has to balance around their little corner of the universe.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Ryuku-sama]

Exactly.

 

Elsewhere in the forum there's a thread detailing how analysis of game after game shows that the hardcore PvP/endgame players are a distinct minority -- and yet they demand and get changes like this that screw the rest of us, and go on and on about how MMOs are all about them, and everything has to balance around their little corner of the universe.

 

It doesn't screw you. 'Screw' closest definition to the situation would be to ruin the game through stupidity. Sorry to break it to you but this change isn,t as stupid as it appears.

 

You say PvP'er and progression PvE'er are a distinct minority and you're right. But they are those who do know this game thorougly. Why are you here?? You say you're here because it is a Star Wars game. Fine. The stories are still Star Wars. What does it matter how you can play these stories?? The only one who cares about these changes are those who actually are playing this game for a little more than just the SW stories. You play for the customization you said. What customization?? There is no customization in a typical WoW-like MMO and never had been. Go find a sandbox if you want customization. The new systems is till thousands times better than what WoW looks. And will be far easier to actually balance and make every classes and spec viable. You're playing for the challenge??? Well then you would be part of the two categories I named at the beginning. You're here because it's a nice MMO... Well if this one isn't what you want anymore. If you don't have any tie to the Star Wars universe. If you don,t care about this game more than another. Get off. Go to another game.

 

This change is well thought. From the informations we have it won't dumb down the game at all. Except if you thought chosing the more efficient spec to a select job was hard. The hard part in this game is to actually play your specs at their full potential, to do part of the game undermanned, ideally without overleveling or overgearing them. Clicking a few talents to build a spec isn't hard. Even a monkey could do it. Hell even figuring out the main rotation for your spec isn't. The tree were already streamlined and the few people who actually found out great hybrid were good. You with your thousands UP hybrids with absolutely no use beyond things one could do even without their AC aren't.

 

Please just stop making a fool out of you. Instead post one hybrid build. A single one that aren't the few I listed before. A single hybrid build that is actually effective at anything beyond easy solo play a no-AC special snowflake can do.

 

Bioware isn't taking options out of the players. They are giving us options. Before, those of us who actually cared about our performances were forced to chose between three to four utilities. Now we have seven in a pool of twenty-one. It isn't taking away options. It is giving options that actually matters. Sure if those option were things no one care about such as a defense increase or a 3% bonus damage increase you would be right. But the utilities we have been shown aren't that kind. they are meaningful. Before we were taking about three skills in a pool of eight in average the remaining being streamlined to build an effective spec. Now we are taking seven in a pool of twenty-one.

Only people contesting this point are the hybrids users. Fine. Bring me one hybrid of your own work (not one already heavily documented) that can parse 3.5k DPS on the 1.5m dummy. If it's a healer hybrid I expect it to be able to heal non stop indefinately without runing out of mana (every heal spec can actually do this when they don't need to forgo regen to just heal more damage than they normally would). If it can you can lower the DPS threshold to 3.0k.

Except a very selct few hybrids, hybrid aren't good in PvE.....

[Max_Killjoy]

It doesn't screw you. 'Screw' closest definition to the situation would be to ruin the game through stupidity. Sorry to break it to you but this change isn,t as stupid as it appears.

 

 

You say PvP'er and progression PvE'er are a distinct minority and you're right. But they are those who do know this game thorougly. Why are you here?? You say you're here because it is a Star Wars game. Fine. The stories are still Star Wars. What does it matter how you can play these stories?? The only one who cares about these changes are those who actually are playing this game for a little more than just the SW stories. You play for the customization you said. What customization?? There is no customization in a typical WoW-like MMO and never had been. Go find a sandbox if you want customization. The new systems is till thousands times better than what WoW looks. And will be far easier to actually balance and make every classes and spec viable. You're playing for the challenge??? Well then you would be part of the two categories I named at the beginning. You're here because it's a nice MMO... Well if this one isn't what you want anymore. If you don't have any tie to the Star Wars universe. If you don,t care about this game more than another. Get off. Go to another game.

 

This change is well thought. From the informations we have it won't dumb down the game at all. Except if you thought chosing the more efficient spec to a select job was hard. The hard part in this game is to actually play your specs at their full potential, to do part of the game undermanned, ideally without overleveling or overgearing them. Clicking a few talents to build a spec isn't hard. Even a monkey could do it. Hell even figuring out the main rotation for your spec isn't. The tree were already streamlined and the few people who actually found out great hybrid were good. You with your thousands UP hybrids with absolutely no use beyond things one could do even without their AC aren't.

 

Please just stop making a fool out of you. Instead post one hybrid build. A single one that aren't the few I listed before. A single hybrid build that is actually effective at anything beyond easy solo play a no-AC special snowflake can do.

 

Bioware isn't taking options out of the players. They are giving us options. Before, those of us who actually cared about our performances were forced to chose between three to four utilities. Now we have seven in a pool of twenty-one. It isn't taking away options. It is giving options that actually matters. Sure if those option were things no one care about such as a defense increase or a 3% bonus damage increase you would be right. But the utilities we have been shown aren't that kind. they are meaningful. Before we were taking about three skills in a pool of eight in average the remaining being streamlined to build an effective spec. Now we are taking seven in a pool of twenty-one.

 

Only people contesting this point are the hybrids users. Fine. Bring me one hybrid of your own work (not one already heavily documented) that can parse 3.5k DPS on the 1.5m dummy. If it's a healer hybrid I expect it to be able to heal non stop indefinately without runing out of mana (every heal spec can actually do this when they don't need to forgo regen to just heal more damage than they normally would). If it can you can lower the DPS threshold to 3.0k.

 

Except a very selct few hybrids, hybrid aren't good in PvE....

 

 

You're demanding something I don't care about, and dismissing solo / heroic focused play as meaningless.

 

When that's the attitude towards the parts of the game I enjoy -- why should I have any regard for the parts of the game that the PvPers / end-gamers enjoy and what effect the current system has on them?

 

Why should I ever care about doing 3.5k DPS, or whether my sorc's build is capable of it? Why should I care if you or anyone else approves of my sorc's build? And I'm never going to show up in your nightmare raid, or on your PvP team, so why on earth do you care?

 

Under your very specific set of criteria, there weren't many choices under the current system. But, I am not and never will be, operating under your criteria, even under the new system.

 

The sorc build I've been using as an example is as follows. Unlike my Arsenal merc, it's not going to be re-creatable under the new system.

 

 

 

Forceweaver 2/2

Seeping Darkness 3/3

Empty Body 2/2

Dark Mending 2/2

Lucidity 1/1

Force Bending 2/2

Resurgence 1/1

Efficacious Currents 2/2

Sith Purity 1/1

Reconstruct 2/2

Force Suffusion 2/2

Innervate 1/1

Corrupted Barrier 2/2

Life Surge 1/2 (had a point to put somewhere...)

 

Reserves 2/2

Electric Induction 3/3

Lightning Barrier 2/2

 

Sith Defiance 2/2

Will of the Sith 2/2

Calcify 1/3 (needed one more point here to open up the next tier)

Oppressing Force 2/2

Force Horrors 3/3

Death Field 1/1

Sith Efficacy 3/3

Madness 1/1

 

 

 

 

It works for what I do, and any approval from you, or anyone else, or some nightmare raiding guild is meaningless in that regard. The sorc this is on plows through Oricon, does just fine in the heroics and whatnot that I bother with doing, in a jack-of-all-trades way, and that's all that matters to me. The higher-tier skills on the Sorc, on all three trees, don't appeal to me in any way, and are pretty much a waste of my time. Most likely, I'll just ignore the Discipline system entirely on this character and just say eff it. You might be gaining options within your very narrowly focused world, but some of us are losing options in a real way, no matter how much you believe they weren't real. Just because they were options that didn't meet your needs, doesn't mean that they were not options.

 

The irony is that one of the arguments in favor of this change is that players won't have to spend points they don't want to spend to progress up the trees to the skills they want. I guess the cost of that is that other players are going to be forced to take skills that they don't want instead.

 

It matters because this is the Sorc character that I built, and the build I've used since the moment the character hit 55. I have a screenshot of the build for when Bioware "helpfully" resets the points, and I just put everything back where it was as much as possible.

 

What want is a way for me to enjoy the game in peace as I've been enjoying it in peace for quite a while, and for the problems with other parts of the game to be addressed, at the same time.

 

But evidently any non-raid-approved character is a threat to everything that the hardcore players hold dear.

 

You can pretend all you want that this doesn't screw a segment of the customer base -- it still does, and evidently for the sake of a different minority... and evidently for one that thinks it's all that matters to the game.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Delta_V]

It doesn't screw you. 'Screw' closest definition to the situation would be to ruin the game through stupidity. Sorry to break it to you but this change isn,t as stupid as it appears.

 

You say PvP'er and progression PvE'er are a distinct minority and you're right. But they are those who do know this game thorougly. Why are you here?? You say you're here because it is a Star Wars game. Fine. The stories are still Star Wars. What does it matter how you can play these stories?? The only one who cares about these changes are those who actually are playing this game for a little more than just the SW stories. You play for the customization you said. What customization?? There is no customization in a typical WoW-like MMO and never had been. Go find a sandbox if you want customization. The new systems is till thousands times better than what WoW looks. And will be far easier to actually balance and make every classes and spec viable. You're playing for the challenge??? Well then you would be part of the two categories I named at the beginning. You're here because it's a nice MMO... Well if this one isn't what you want anymore. If you don't have any tie to the Star Wars universe. If you don,t care about this game more than another. Get off. Go to another game.

 

This change is well thought. From the informations we have it won't dumb down the game at all. Except if you thought chosing the more efficient spec to a select job was hard. The hard part in this game is to actually play your specs at their full potential, to do part of the game undermanned, ideally without overleveling or overgearing them. Clicking a few talents to build a spec isn't hard. Even a monkey could do it. Hell even figuring out the main rotation for your spec isn't. The tree were already streamlined and the few people who actually found out great hybrid were good. You with your thousands UP hybrids with absolutely no use beyond things one could do even without their AC aren't.

 

Please just stop making a fool out of you. Instead post one hybrid build. A single one that aren't the few I listed before. A single hybrid build that is actually effective at anything beyond easy solo play a no-AC special snowflake can do.

 

Bioware isn't taking options out of the players. They are giving us options. Before, those of us who actually cared about our performances were forced to chose between three to four utilities. Now we have seven in a pool of twenty-one. It isn't taking away options. It is giving options that actually matters. Sure if those option were things no one care about such as a defense increase or a 3% bonus damage increase you would be right. But the utilities we have been shown aren't that kind. they are meaningful. Before we were taking about three skills in a pool of eight in average the remaining being streamlined to build an effective spec. Now we are taking seven in a pool of twenty-one.

Only people contesting this point are the hybrids users. Fine. Bring me one hybrid of your own work (not one already heavily documented) that can parse 3.5k DPS on the 1.5m dummy. If it's a healer hybrid I expect it to be able to heal non stop indefinately without runing out of mana (every heal spec can actually do this when they don't need to forgo regen to just heal more damage than they normally would). If it can you can lower the DPS threshold to 3.0k.

Except a very selct few hybrids, hybrid aren't good in PvE.....

 

So much this. It's not dumbing down because the only part it's changing - selecting talents - was already easy. The hard part, mastering your spec's rotation and maximizing your performance in actual gameplay, has not changed at all. I could look at a spec and figure out the core build and the essence of the rotation (if not its actual execution) in a couple minutes. A few seconds to identify the active abilities I need to grab, half a minute to identify all of the passive talents that were actually useful to the spec and that I wanted to get, then a few more seconds to figure out which of the other abilities I would be forced to take just to progress up the skill tree. The only thing that can actually take longer is figuring out the handful of talents from the other trees that are the most useful, which sometimes requires parsing on a dummy. At the same time, I would be figuring out the basics of the rotation - "use this ability to proc the buff for that ability", "use these abilities on cooldown", etc. That part is trivial. The hard part comes after - using the spec in combat and figuring out how to maximize your own performance.

 

Now, selecting skills will actually be harder, since there are actually difficult choices in the utility skills. Looking at the Sorceror utility section, I see a hell of a lot more than 7 abilities I would like to pick up. Looking at Tier 1, it looks like all 7 abilities would be nice to have for PVP, while 5/7 would be useful in PVE (the Stun-related stuff is useless for boss fights). In Tier 2, it looks like 6/7 are useful for PVP DPS, although the 7th is all but mandatory for healers, although only 3/7 look useful for PVE dps and 4/7 for PVE heals. Tier 3 looks about the same as Tier 2. So for PVP, that means you have to choose 7 out of about 19 useful abilities, and you have to choose 7 out of about 12-13 abilities. There are going to be some tough choices that you have to actually think about, and they will produce tangible differences from player to player. If one player decides "certain abilities can be cast while moving" is worth a utility point, while another decides to invest that point in "Affliction slows the target by 30%", they will end up with noticeably different playstyles.

[Ryuku-sama]

You're demanding something I don't care about, and dismissing solo / heroic focused play as meaningless.

 

 

When that's the attitude towards the parts of the game I enjoy -- why should I have any regard for the parts of the game that the PvPers / end-gamers enjoy and what effect the current system has on them?

 

Why should I ever care about doing 3.5k DPS, or whether my sorc's build is capable of it? Why should I care if you or anyone else approves of my sorc's build? And I'm never going to show up in your nightmare raid, or on your PvP team, so why on earth do you care?

 

Under your very specific set of criteria, there weren't many choices under the current system. But, I am not and never will be, operating under your criteria, even under the new system.

 

The sorc build I've been using as an example is as follows. Unlike my Arsenal merc, it's not going to be re-creatable under the new system.

 

 

 

Forceweaver 2/2

Seeping Darkness 3/3

Empty Body 2/2

Dark Mending 2/2

Lucidity 1/1

Force Bending 2/2

Resurgence 1/1

Efficacious Currents 2/2

Sith Purity 1/1

Reconstruct 2/2

Force Suffusion 2/2

Innervate 1/1

Corrupted Barrier 2/2

Life Surge 1/2 (had a point to put somewhere...)

 

Reserves 2/2

Electric Induction 3/3

Lightning Barrier 2/2

 

Sith Defiance 2/2

Will of the Sith 2/2

Calcify 1/3 (needed one more point here to open up the next tier)

Oppressing Force 2/2

Force Horrors 3/3

Death Field 1/1

Sith Efficacy 3/3

Madness 1/1

 

 

 

 

It works for what I do, and any approval from you, or anyone else, or some nightmare raiding guild is meaningless in that regard. The sorc this is on plows through Oricon, does just fine in the heroics and whatnot that I bother with doing, in a jack-of-all-trades way, and that's all that matters to me. The higher-tier skills on the Sorc, on all three trees, don't appeal to me in any way, and are pretty much a waste of my time. Most likely, I'll just ignore the Discipline system entirely on this character and just say eff it. You might be gaining options within your very narrowly focused world, but some of us are losing options in a real way, no matter how much you believe they weren't real. Just because they were options that didn't meet your needs, doesn't mean that they were not options.

 

The irony is that one of the arguments in favor of this change is that players won't have to spend points they don't want to spend to progress up the trees to the skills they want. I guess the cost of that is that other players are going to be forced to take skills that they don't want instead.

 

What want is a way for me to enjoy the game in peace as I've been enjoying it in peace for quite a while, and for the problems with other parts of the game to be addressed, at the same time.

 

But evidently any non-raid-approved character is a threat to everything that the hardcore players hold dear.

 

You can pretend all you want that this doesn't screw a segment of the customer base -- it still does, and evidently for the sake of a different minority... and evidently for one that thinks it's all that matters to the game.

 

Take your build for a few minutes. With 5 new levels, they would need to add another row of meaningless talent at the bottom to try to keep hybrids at bay. Bioware would do it whether you like it or not. This would make your hybrid impossible anyway... But it would make every character unefficient before level 25. Next level increase would be 30. Then 35 . And 40..... You see where I am going. This is what they did for 2.0 and RotHC. And what they would have done without the overhaul. You would have lost your hybrids both ways. But at least in this one, the leveling process won't become more painful as level increases go.

 

Sure you could against the very idea of level increase. But SWTOR is a level based MMO. It needs level increases. It hadn't been built with an horizontal progression in mind. It is a vertical progression. And it cannot be changed without redoing the whole game from scratch.

 

Just tell me. What do you consider best. The discipline system or trees where the lowest rows would become empty talent without any flavour just a blend mix of a little more to one stat or the other just to keep hybrids in check (which IS the devs intent).

 

Ok... You would say that they shoudl want to deal with hybrids. Except from the balancing nightmare it would become it could be a viable way to build a game. A single player game. A game where you aren't in competition against anything but the AI. A game when no one care about what you're doing but you.

 

I'm not dismissing solo play. I'm saying that one can be effective in solo play without his fricking AC for **** sake. What someone is doing in soloplay doesn't matter for me because I can do any single **** that goes through my mind and plow through cap level dailies without too much troubles.

 

PS. Thank you for the idea about the spoiler tags.. So much useful to hide long string of text in quotes