Developer Update: Introduction to Disciplines

[HKtheindomitable]

Also concerned about this. As it already stands, ranged is pretty much easy mode in both pve and pvp compared to melee (yes I play both archetypes).

 

Also - when are we going to get a glimpse at the disciplines for other classes?

 

Statement: Your concerns are unfounded.

 

Fact: Melee classes already have gap closers. Most players just don't use them properly.

 

Fact: We haven't seen what the melee classes are going to get in the expansion yet.

 

Recommendation: Don't get so worked up over seeing only one thing and having not seen or played the new system.

 

Consolation: I know it's not easy to not be concerned. I was concerned when I heard it at first too.

 

Suggestion: If you go with the "I know nothing yet." mind set, you'll be better off. Because frankly, we know nothing yet.

 

Statement: We've only seen one class and one advanced class. And it's not like all the casting abilities can be used while moving. And those casting abilities can't be used all the time while moving either.

 

Reminder: And remember what we saw isn't necessarily final.

[Sarafain]

I think we'd just like confirmation there are plans for melee to offset the effects of increasing ranged mobility!

[LordHartigan]

I think we'd just like confirmation there are plans for melee to offset the effects of increasing ranged mobility!

 

Something like the WAR Force Charge would be good, imo. Gap closer coupled with some damage in one ability.

Edited October 8, 2014 by LordHartigan

[Gleneagle]

I think we'd just like confirmation there are plans for melee to offset the effects of increasing ranged mobility!

Alternatively we could presume the designers are competent and have thought their complex system through more thoroughly than we have at least until your melee class is revealed in the coming one or two weeks.

[HKtheindomitable]

I think we'd just like confirmation there are plans for melee to offset the effects of increasing ranged mobility!

 

Statement: We did. It was confirmed in the Twitch stream. What we don't know is what those abilities are.

[IvanIronsword]

I watched the video last night, slept on it, and here's my 2 cents:

 

1) I'm still not happy about the coddling of the stupids. Learn2Play or ****. If you are a tank, you learn to recognize tank talents and you take them. Same goes for healer. And DPS. Conversely you learn to recognize filler talents and skip over them. Will this cut down on group finder disasters? A little. But at what price?

 

2) HOWEVER, this does have potential. IF, and only IF, the Devs put a lot of thought into the Utility Point abilities, making them a mix of "be better in your primary skills" and "here's some crazy **** you could not do before but secretly wished you could." Guardians dual wielding. Shadows in Medium armor. Vanguards with Cannons. Marauders with an AOE ranged attack. And that's just off the top of my head. For the record the whole move and cast thing counts as both be better and crazy ****.

 

Finally, let me request a cartel market purchase (after 3.0 drops at this point) to allow re-spec into a different advanced class. Story-wise there is little reason not to do this. Not like there is a Jedi Sentinel story path versus a Jedi Guardian story path. Great way to combat buyers remorse without having to redo all the work on your original toon. It's not just about the level, there's companions, companion storylines, crew skills, etc.

[Karkais]

Statement: We did. It was confirmed in the Twitch stream. What we don't know is what those abilities are.

 

Can someone please link to the said stream archive, since I missed it, and I suspect because I live on wrong kind of timezone to watch it live anyway.

[ScarletBlaze]

Can someone please link to the said stream archive, since I missed it, and I suspect because I live on wrong kind of timezone to watch it live anyway.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/swtor

 

Their timezone is central.

Edited October 8, 2014 by ScarletBlaze

[HKtheindomitable]

I watched the video last night, slept on it, and here's my 2 cents:

 

1) I'm still not happy about the coddling of the stupids. Learn2Play or ****. If you are a tank, you learn to recognize tank talents and you take them. Same goes for healer. And DPS. Conversely you learn to recognize filler talents and skip over them. Will this cut down on group finder disasters? A little. But at what price?

 

Irritated Statement: This kind of thinking is what I find annoying. It isn't the picking of your abilities that makes you good at a certain role. It's how you use it. You can pick all the correct tanking abilities and still be the worst tank ever.

 

Query: Who cares if this does make it easier for players anyway? Do you enjoy it when other players make mistakes and pick the wrong utility abilities? Does it make you feel good to look down on other players from your supposed pedestal?

 

Statement: Your attitude about those players is highly detrimental to the game and community which you revere so much. When I started playing this game, I thought that playing "hybrid" meant putting points into all three skill threes. My first character is a Vanguard. Just imagine what that was like. I played that way for quite some time. Until I was taught how to do it right by a very skilled individual. He didn't berate me and act all rude. He was kind and considerate. He taught me everything I needed to know. I now know twice as much and am twice as skilled as I was then. All because of a helping hand.

 

Indignant Suggestion: You should stop being so "high and mighty" and help those around you. That goes for everyone who thinks that way.

 

Recitation: Choosing your abilities doesn't make you a good player. Using your class and role correctly does. You can pick all the correct tanking abilities, and still be the worst tank ever.

[Damgan]

The Olog-hai who are claiming this will remove choice from the progression process haven't even read the Dev post. Skill trees only give the illusion of choice because some skills are either situational or objectively worse than others. There's no choice; to choose something the number-crunchers haven't approved is to nerf yourself.

 

The notion that low level players will become as powerful as endgame players is equally ridiculous. Endgame players will still have greatly more power and bonuses that Bolster can't match, and will still have something to show for their progression.

The worst opinion of all being voiced is that new characters should have to grind for 30 levels before they break out of an amorphous early DPS role into a Tank, Healer, or proper DPS. I despair that some people actually think this.

 

Like many, I'm looking forward to the removal of an antiquated and unsustainable system with something that will, once the teething troubles have been ironed out, benefit everyone.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Damgan

[LordHartigan]

I watched the video last night, slept on it, and here's my 2 cents:

 

1) I'm still not happy about the coddling of the stupids. Learn2Play or ****. If you are a tank, you learn to recognize tank talents and you take them. Same goes for healer. And DPS. Conversely you learn to recognize filler talents and skip over them. Will this cut down on group finder disasters? A little. But at what price?

 

2) HOWEVER, this does have potential. IF, and only IF, the Devs put a lot of thought into the Utility Point abilities, making them a mix of "be better in your primary skills" and "here's some crazy **** you could not do before but secretly wished you could." Guardians dual wielding. Shadows in Medium armor. Vanguards with Cannons. Marauders with an AOE ranged attack. And that's just off the top of my head. For the record the whole move and cast thing counts as both be better and crazy ****.

 

Finally, let me request a cartel market purchase (after 3.0 drops at this point) to allow re-spec into a different advanced class. Story-wise there is little reason not to do this. Not like there is a Jedi Sentinel story path versus a Jedi Guardian story path. Great way to combat buyers remorse without having to redo all the work on your original toon. It's not just about the level, there's companions, companion storylines, crew skills, etc.

 

As to 1) on your list I think a lot of people are buying a little too much into the marketing of the discipline system. Nothing is getting dumbed down really as far as abilities or rotations. None of that is going away. The real reason BioWare did this and had to do it was logistical. As mentioned the skill tree system was going to pose a re-balancing nightmare for them every time the level cap was increased. It just sounds better to tell people you're improving it, symplifying it, whatever, for them rather then say we're rolling out an expansion to make a major correction required for the longevity of the game.

 

Don't think you're last suggestion would work. First, companions and their story lines if your an inquisitor starting class, don't change between sorc and assassin. You have the same companions and same companion story lines. You can already change crew skills if you want, unless your suggesting you can switch from your level 450 cybertech to 450 artifice without actually having to level the skill you switch to, which wouldn't be fair. Just level one craft to 450 then you get access to all crafts at that level? Don't think so. The advanced classes of the same base class are different enough that if you're going to go that far you might as well let someone switch to any class at all, which would eliminate the needs for alt toons altogether, which means you might as well have a job system instead and that wouldn't really work with the story.

Edited October 8, 2014 by LordHartigan

[Aberd]

Right, I am not going to go thru 47 pages of posts to see if any has requested that a copy of live stream of the discipline stuff be posted somewhere.

[Ryuku-sama]

Right, I am not going to go thru 47 pages of posts to see if any has requested that a copy of live stream of the discipline stuff be posted somewhere.

 

Dude.. It is on twitch.. Just check it up /facepalm.

[SethMyst]

WoW did this system rather nicely. So, why are people hating?

 

Anyways, WoW also implemented a Talent system in which there was no perfect choice. Can't wait to see how they'll counter that...

[Aikiyc]

the most important that nobody is forced to ragequit cause game have become simple, infact it become more complex cause of more options. People will have a hardtime memorising all those options

 

Not really. It's no more complex. They've added almost nothing new in the Utility Tiers for Sorc. It's generally stuff that were already in the trees. We already know all that stuff. And it's really, really easy to figure out which ones a player has by what they do, for example, Chain Shock. There's nothing hard to memorize. A Sorc casting on the move has Force Mobility. That's not hard to figure.

 

From my sorc perspectied, I only gain more solutions to deal with particular situations .

Since I gain more options

Now when the merc is streamed, I can see if I would lose buttons or gain more.

 

You seem to think you're getting new active abilities with the Utility Tiers. You get no new solution abilities. You get no new option abilities. Every single utility they showcased for Sorc was a passive. And they were almost all **** we already have in the trees. Now, yes. Some of those passives are good, like Force Mobility for casting 1 spell on the move, and the Cloud Mind giving damage reduction for those PvPers out there.

 

But there's definitely a lot of utilities in there that will never be picked by endgame players, either PvE or PvP. Just like now... in fact...

 

So we get **** when we level, cause it just unlocks automatically, and we still have the same old cookie cutter illusion of choice on a smaller scale. What, exactly, did we, the player, directly gain from this?

 

Oh. Right. Virtually nothing. Change to the amount of dev work, sure. Change to their balancing needs, sure. What did we get out of the deal concerning player customization? Zilch. Same skill tree options. Different interface to do 'em.

 

I am not impressed. I'm still having flashbacks of WoW. BioWare really needs to step up the Utility Tiers if that Sorc showcase is representative of the rest. The spread of useful utility is very top ended (naturally), and generally makes everything else not interesting by comparison, while still being subject to cookie cutter.

[Sendraniss]

I recall when SW Galaxies did this. A perfect game, with a great leveling system, for those willing ot put in the work. It killed the game, and now it is completely non-existant. I will keep my fingers crossed.

[Meltedskull]

I recall when SW Galaxies did this. A perfect game, with a great leveling system, for those willing ot put in the work. It killed the game, and now it is completely non-existant. I will keep my fingers crossed.

 

Last time I checked SWG ADDED SKILL TREES WITH NGE and that killed the game. SWG never had skill/talent tress in the beginning

 

I love it how people keep spouting NGE and SWG but it clear they never played it and just want to bring up something that broke a SW game for the sake of throwing it around. Throwing around NGE is more of a point with SWTOR than against it because NGE ADDED SKILL TREES which we're trying to move AWAY FROM.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Meltedskull

[Kaymac]

It's funny how a game like Rift can manage to keep their game at least somewhat balanced with all their crazy combinations and level cap increases and yet Bioware folds at the thought of having to rebalance 8 classes once every year- year to a half At least we can look forward to cartel market armor reskins not likely changing:rolleyes:

[Meltedskull]

It's funny how a game like Rift can manage to keep their game at least somewhat balanced with all their crazy combinations and level cap increases and yet Bioware folds at the thought of having to rebalance 8 classes once every year- year to a half At least we can look forward to cartel market armor reskins not likely changing:rolleyes:

 

Rift has an amazing skill tree system but the thing is what BW is trying to say is that either we put it in an expansive tree like Rift or we move away from skill trees all together because having a smaller tree just doesn't work out in reality.

[Deewe]

Rift has an amazing skill tree system but the thing is what BW is trying to say is that either we put it in an expansive tree like Rift or we move away from skill trees all together because having a smaller tree just doesn't work out in reality.

I just wish we had Kotor system,

[ScarletBlaze]

Right, I am not going to go thru 47 pages of posts to see if any has requested that a copy of live stream of the discipline stuff be posted somewhere.

 

http://dulfy.net/2014/10/07/swtor-disciplines-livestream-notes/

[MrShmoove]

Looks pretty cookie cutter to me. VERY dumbed down. Heck I've used 6 different specs with my sage in just the last couple months!!!! That shows the current talent trees flexibility! It also alleviates some of the boredom of playing your class the same way over and over for months on end. Maybe this side tree thingy will be enough to mix things up. I'll give it a chance of course but I AM skeptical.

[Lord_Keyrus]

Hopefully, this new system will keep the current rotations mostly intact, as I am very much attached to that of my main (madspec sin). If I understand correctly, the Disciplines system will get specs acting the way they do in endgame sooner, and swap the utilities into a separate system for more customization. If so, then I am very excited about this change. Just don't screw things up. Please.

[Ryuku-sama]

Looks pretty cookie cutter to me. VERY dumbed down. Heck I've used 6 different specs with my sage in just the last couple months!!!! That shows the current talent trees flexibility! It also alleviates some of the boredom of playing your class the same way over and over for months on end. Maybe this side tree thingy will be enough to mix things up. I'll give it a chance of course but I AM skeptical.

 

Care to post your 6 current spec.. Cause there is 4 viable spec. Madness, Lightning, Corruption and Madness/Lightning hybrid (which can be found under two form, one good enough to be viable in AoE content, the other being just a Madness without Creeping Terror). Sure there is also the Corruption/x hybrids which are bad in endgame content (except in solo ranked queue where they are cheating the systems to give their team a healer the other team won't have)

 

So basicly there is Corruption (where you can move around points to get Sap Strenght, Conspiring Force, Corrupted Speed and Sith Defiance), Lightning (with Suppression, Backlash, Electric Bindings and Sith Defiance being changed from fight to fight), Madness (with Sith Defiance, Haunted Dreams, Corrupted Flesh, Surging Speed and Shapeless Spirit being moved around; Convection, Subversion and Seeping Darkness are also moved around but not that much) and the hybrid Lightning/Madness (with, parasitism, Sith Defiance, Corrupted Flesh, Haunted Dreams, Electric Bindings, Backlash, Supression, Forceweaver and Seeping Darkness being moved around).

 

So we have four constant spec with defensives, controls and some small number crunching skills being changed between fights and players. Barely anything worth noting or exactly what is inside the Discipline utility tree.

So we are left with one big change. The few good hybrids are going away. First. Be known that all good hybrids are well known and have their own staandard spec. There is a few more bad hybrid that couldn't sustain any role in progression PvE and/or are unbalanced in PvP.

The good hybrids are Engi/Leth Sniper, Lightning/Madness Sorc, Darkmaul Sinas of 2.10. Every other hybrids are subpar. You areeither losing survivability and cannotbe a tank will lacking the DPS to be a DPS, losing too many heals to be a reliable healer while lacking DPS to be a good DPS or just can't sustain a good DPS. Once in a while there are some OP hybrid that appears in PvP. THey are completely non-viable in PvE. But they still have more DPS than a tank and more survivability than a DPS. Nothing useful in PvE but OP in PvP. This is those hybrids BW is trying to prevent by their overhaul.

[harleyandsmokey]

It's gonna take me a while to get used to this discipline system