I'll have to check the PTS notes. Seem like you're saying they just cut Lacerates range in half regardless of what that does for the other specs

Is this change still going through? I saw something on the PTS saying it was taken out but without a source; PTS notes themselves?

Yes it's no longer outside guard range, yes you have to be within melee range to DoT spread. The trade off is faster DoT spread, faster DoT spread means greater uptime, greater uptime means better damage/sustained pressure. It's increased Range vs Speeding up spread. What does more damage doing it from far away or doing it faster?

Lacerates tool tip reads "within 5 meters", I assume that means 5m radius, which would mean it's 10 vs DF's 16.

How does ranged not being clumped or not clumped differ except you have to move your character instead of your mouse change anything? If ranged were spread out you still won't have hit them with DF or only spread your DoT's to 1 other target, it's a 6m difference. You may also have waited to use DF until more people stacked delaying outgoing damage. Lacerate uses as much force as Thrash, DF can be used on CD now instead holding it to spread DoT's. I looked for Evo's post in the original thread about making Lacerate the DoT spread abilitity for the additional reasons or his breakdown of why it shouldn't switch to lacerate without a change to lacerate but was unable to find it; though even Aelanis's suggestion stated Lacerate would need to change so it wasn't spammable.

PvP doesn't need sustained, PvE does. Seeing how people play Deception in PvE, we, the PvE players, do need increased sustain damage to a point where it matches the sustained damage of other burst classes. In PvE there are few times where control matters and if the PvP players want to trade control for burst, the impact on PvE will be minimal. My earlier point was control, and breaking control is important in PvP. I don't believe it matters if it only takes 1 player to get another to full resolve, co-originated CC chains has the same effect.

If you could use the Slam move without a CD in Vengence would you consider it a nerf or a buff?

Increasing Assassinate or LS puts the class at near burst levels of damage. Increasing DoT damage increases healing received. The increase would need to come from thrash but still leave it low enough to not approach low burst level damage, saber strike and possibly the Charge, or from re working the way the spec works.

The only PvE fight where this change will affect DPS is Lurker as the adds are to far away to DoT spread. This isn't a major PvE nerf. DoT spread with instant Demolish proc vs larger DoT spread area. This change by itself is a terrible change. It was discussed in the thread when this idea was first suggested, with a low energy, no CD DoT spread, that Proc's instant Demolish the class becomes better in PvP. Because Lacerate has no CD there is no reason to delay DoT spread, in other words the change switches a bigger area to spread DoTs to the ability to basically spam DoT spread. Lacerate force cost is not that much greater then thrash so there really isn't that much change to the single target rotation. The suggestion was made to make a change to Lacerate but any change to Lacerate will have a significant affect on Decep and even Darkness. I like the idea that the class plays more like a Madness Sorc then melee, it adds class diversity. There is also no serious change to the single target rotation, switching 1 Lacerate for a Thrash. So the real question becomes are they going to push this to live or are they going to make Lacerate changes and break it for the other specs first...

I was going to say Deception. You get Lacerate early and can buff it with your first talent point to a point where it will kill groups of mobs in 3/4 shots gear dependent. There really isn't a wrong spec to level in just in how you want to play.

I can see your point. I don't want the classes burst to be increase but rather it's sustained through the use of less Saber Strikes and possibly an increase to Surging Charge damage. Something over the course of 30 seconds isn't noticeable but after 2 minutes adds up.

The problem isn't that it will have a minimal impact on PvP but that it will have an impact on PvP. Players are calling for a nerf, Sin/Shadow are FoTM class. What do you think will happen in the SW PvP community if an already powerful spec gets a passive increase to survivability?

We're off topic and of different opinions. You believe Decep's control is too good for a DPS increase without loosing some of that control and I think it's irrelevant. Truthfully Decep/Infil is in a good spot, it just falls behind other burst spec's in PvE.

The problem is it will still give an advantage in PvP. People will find a way to take advantage of it! If the shield starts building as soon as the player is at 100% life they will end up with extra mitigation. If it's no damage in the last 5 seconds before it starts building then it's PvE viablity is reduced. It's a smart, unique suggestion but it still impacts PvP where the class is over performing.

I like the idea, I have of 2 ways to abuse it in PvP. DoT up, Cloak or DoT up, phase walk both removes you from the area to build up a bit of a shield before you re- jump into combat. Yes it takes you out of combat and possibly hurts your team but for Yolo's people will complain even more. I think whatever is decided to improve survivability needs to be tied to a talent PvP players avoid. This way PvP doesn't end up getting a passive buff to survivability and has to loose 1 utility for another.

You went from saying it couldn't be done saying it shouldn't be possible. I did say interupt not break, you were right. I also won't say there are not times where taking yourself out of combat to CC isn't worth it and I'm not saying Decep CC utility is anything but powerful. In a 2 v 1 scenario you're spending too many GCD's on CC and will die against an equal geared/skilled opponent even if they don't break the cc chain because they're getting in more attacks as basically every other CC of Decep goes into CC. 2 v 2 a co-ordinated CC chain will last just as long and once someone's full resolve what does it matter if it was done by 1 or 2 people, there is also the chance to have your opponent flip the CC chain. Truthfully I think Decep's control is in a good spot. It also takes a fairly high player skill to pull it off and balances against how many GCD's are spent to keep the chain going.

This is why I mentioned tying it to Assassin's shelter + stance, though didn't call it by name. Putting it in the Heroic talent with the 3% increased healing might help with spike damage and add an alternative PvP heroic talent. I remember you're post tanking the tanks when you did the 5K giving you first on tor parse. If there's a bad set of adds on Malaphar or DPS is behind on puppies; basically the lighter the raid DPS the greater the extra damage from the DoT's become. I'd need to check some combat logs to see how much of my damage goes to adds via DoT spread and how much that would have lowered my dps. If as much as 20% is done to adds though that's still ~800 dps. You're right and I also won't care if the DoT spread damage was decreased and single target brought up, but also can't have a greater burst effect as you already pointed out. The class is stuck in a stalemate.

I didn't say interrupt I said break the chain. If you are stunned 1-2 seconds before you're next cc goes you that will give a healer 1 GCD or more to heal or even cc you again.

This sim is not accurate, basically it assumes your opponent is just standing there with no DCD's used or up, and no one around to interfere. I like the fact it can measure burst for straight comparison against other classes. It shouldn't matter if Sin/Shadow's have the ability to create such a long CC chain, PvP is not 1 on 1. During the CC chain if the Sin/Shad is not interrupted then they deserve to get the CC off. Also 7.5 of those 17 to 21 seconds your GCD's are going into CC, leaving 6 to 9 GCD's to do damage. There is also a matter of staying in range to keep the CC up, not only could a 2nd opponent stop the CC chain but they could also run far enough from the CC'd target so you could do no damage to them. I'm not arguing Deceptions utilities or burst is not significant just that both scenarios listed show potential vs reality when against skilled players. Stealth lets Sin/Shadow's pick off stragglers and try to make both suggestions possible but when was the last time you saw a Sin/Shadow pull off a combo like that against a skilled player. Deception IMO only needs a slight (5%) increase to DPS

The problem is that would also affect PvE. Malaphar, Torq, and to a lesser degree Sparky, Commanders and Lurker all benefit from DoT spread. Lessening the spread and increase DoT damage increases single target but only shifts AoE damage, adjusting a single target ability opens up burst damage. I don't think there's a simple fix that can make hatred PvE competitive for progression without making it further OP in PvP. IMO DoT heals need to go, it's too powerful in PvP and not effective in PvP. I've already made suggestions but haven't had the time to look at logs for numbers

The thread has gotten off topic. For my clarification, the 2 things that seem to make Assassin's OP in PvP are DoT spread and the effectiveness CD's provide based on Talents. What talents are the PvP players taking that make them OP? There are honestly some awesome talents, perhaps too many awesome talents. The combination of Shroud and Dark Stability provides to much control immunity; therefore reducing the duration of Dark Stability, IMO, doesn't resolve the issue. I suggested it earlier but what do those that PvP think of switching Dark stability to reset the CD of Cloak instead of the stun/cc imunity? For PvE the issue is survivability and doing less damage then it should. The class is REALLY squishy in PvE. It’s in a bad spot because any improvement to increase it’s sturdiness will also improve it’s PvP survival. Would adding a 5% health increase tied to phase walks utility while in not tank stance be enough of an offset? It doesn’t mean Hatred would take less damage or alleviate pressure on healers it just provides a bigger health pool to absorb spike damage; tied to a utility not used in PvP.

Good catch on the CD, the idea literally came to me as I was typing and I just through it out without properly breaking it down. It seemed a good way to dealing with spike damage as a squishy in PvE and reducing survivability in PvP. It allows for and increase in DoT damage without having DoT's tied to self healing/survivability. The bonus heal and bonus damage could also be calculated seperately. So refine it down to 2 Deathmarks for increased healing of 25% and 20% damage per Deathmark, then boost Hatred's DoT's damage back to pre-nerf damage. I like the thought of controlled mitigation through self heals, and the when to use LS. I dislike how certain fights this tier have multiple high damage boss attacks that leave a player dead if they eat both from RNG. We should take roughly the same DTPS as other melee classes though. Instead of straight mitigation we use LS to heal what other classes straight mitigate. Doing this as well as using defensives effectly should put us on par with other melee classes. The fact that Ranged take so much less damage then melee is a raid design issue. If no healing is tied to DoT's the damage can be increased to make up for holding on to LS without changing survivability. I had figured if you're immune to CC you should do less damage to switch it from a offensive to a defensive ability. That's the problem with the utility, it makes a defensive CD into an aggressive offensive CD. The reset would have some neat applications, more so in Decep. I think that's a fair trade for Master lvl talent; it provides a get away/reset if deflection isn't enough, making the talent keep deflection as a defensive. It's always stuck me as odd that the 2 spec's don't have more mitigation in common. Carnage vs Anni it's self heals vs 6% DR. Sniper DR is pretty much the same per spec, same with Merc's and possibly others. Light armor classes seemed to get hosed in terms of DR.

BW have put Hatred in a terrible spot much like Decep/Infil damage pre 3.0. It's hard to make Hatred survivablity fair in PvE without becoming OP in PvP. I'm pretty sure everyone warned against the changes saying PvE would be screwed and PvP untouched... and guess what's happened. Infil/Decp plays really well in current content but it is trailing in too far behind in DPS (IMO). Napkin math I have it as ~80 DPS increase using 1 CS/VS over 1 Saber Strike every 30 sec's. The downtime on a boss fight all classes, but warriors/knights, regen resources decreasing the need to use Saber Strike and decreasing the DPS increase it will have. Include an increase to Charging surge damage by another 50 or so DPS puts Decep/Infil in a healthy PvE place and because both increased resource regen, and increased dmg on a proc with a high ICD take time to be noticed it will minimize the impact on PvP.

Nice job Aelanis in stirring up some worthwhile topics on the forums. Deception is my favorite spec. I solo'd a lot of 4 man heroic's when levelling by using everything the class had. CC, pop CD's effectively to drop a mob, stealth out, repeat until they were all dead. The rotation is fast paced and subject to some RNG adding the right amount of challenge to be fun. Having an off-taunt with decent survivability give the spec great utility. The spec lacks a little DPS but has a great balance to it. IMO whether a class is burst or DoT the DPS should be where Decep/Hatred is now. DoT spec's take time to "ramp up" their DPS but they continue to do damage when the boss/mob is no longer in range. Basically make up lost DPS from burst from better/easier uptime on boss. I'm unsure how accurately dummy parses reflect how well the class does in boss fights. Shad/Sin's are one of the few classes who have no channelled attacks. This means Shad/Sin's never need to break a channel due to mechanics and loose out on the damage of the last tick, such as Ravage/Master Strike. I would like to see Hatred and Deceptions DPS increased to put them more in the mid range of DPS rather then bottom range. For this I would like to see an increase in damage from Surging Charge and an increase in the force returned from Surging Charge, possibly double. Minimal change for a very controllable adjustment to the classes damage, one with minor impact on PvP per Surging Charge's ICD. Lastly as everyone complains about Dark Stability, immunity to CC as everyone calls it; I'm going to suggest what I did in the Hatred thread and that is to have it reset the GCD of Force Cloak. This adds utility for PvE and continues to make it powerful in PvP.

How up to date is the information you're using for your DPS comparison? I know Mara/Sent's just went through a nerf to WM/Anni loosing somewhere between 150-200 dps. I've also read BW intends to bring down sustained damage, though I've yet to read about Merc/Mando nerfs. The issue with Hatred seems to be the spec is squishy in PvE and overtuned for PvP. BW seems to have put Hatreds survivability in the state Deception's DPS was in Pre 3.0 where it's tough to make adjustments without tipping to being OP in opposite scenario. The absorb shield is a good idea. I've come up with a diffent suggestion that adds a unique twist on the rotation: Remove all healing from DoTs. Increase CD of Leaching Strikes to 25 seconds and have Leaching Strike use up to 3 Deathmark charges to increase it's Damage/Healing by 12% per deathmark. This will add some play to the Hatred rotation to maximize self heals/survivability and maintain DPS. In PvP it will give a significant amount of time to be focused without self heals and with the trauma debuff should decrease survivability. The numbers here might be a touch too much or too little - once i have a parse to break down. Dark Stability is constantly being complained against. Would having it also reduce players damage by 35% stop the complaints? Or again to add some play to the spec's have it reset the CD on Force Cloak?