Developer Update: Introduction to Disciplines

[Drake_Hound]

You sir are wrong!

Disciplines are exactly that same thing, only difference is that showing us "the path" our abilities are gained with levels give you the impression it's not a straight-forward "progression". You can't deviate from the path the devs created.

Also the more abilities is a illusion as well, because of the level cap raise. There are new abilities at 56,57,59, two of which are passives and one active that REPLACES Lightning Strike. It's not really more, is it?

As for the HYBRIDS? They are dead. I asked, they clearly said it. You wont be able to use Death Field as lightning sorc. Period. You are forced to use Thundering Blast, which is utter "sith" compared to DF-long cd, long cast time and single target not that much of a damage). Didn't see cd removal for Force Lightning on the utility tooltips either. So no more playing it the way we like for most of us. The Utility points are just "fine tuning" options without much impact on play style(except the cast-while-moving one).

Now I get that it's a lot to keep all the hybrids in check etc. But Bioware took away our favourite builds without even giving Dual Spec and Gear Manager in return. REALLY BW? It's on your priority list for a while now? I guess making another pair of the same pants for CM was more important.

But ok I get that. I also get that this change is mainly for new players and altoholics to feel more powerful early on. And it's cool, cause I am an altoholic. But to make us click through all of that stuff each time we respec? WoW, Thats Lazy.

I have a solution though for making both: hybrid fans and devs happy. Let us choose one of the other discipline's core ability as a Utility. So as Lightning sorc lets say a choice between Death Field and Dark Infusion(with Chain Lightning as a Lightning Disc core ability). At the cost of some other important thing, like say that cast-while-moving perk(or some high dmg utility), so we can choose between higher dps and more aoe. Not that much more work for devs and we still can have some choice on how to play.

 

This is the classic example it wasn't deathfield that replaced thundering blast, it was instant crushing darkness that replaced thundering blast. Deathfield was just extra.

Cause a GCD forklightning followed by a instant crushing darkness was higher dps then a 1,8 animation time thundering blast unless thundering blast critical and double cast proc.

 

This is the example why people are confused about min maxing hybrids. Especially dps wise.

Deathfield was just another mobility cast, the reason of a lightning/madness hybrid dps spec. Was it contained all the critical multiplier needed, forcebuff stacking and greater AOE then going all the way up to thunderingblast.

 

It was a different playstyle based on combination of forklightning and lightning strike based on the situation or mobility.

Still able to have stun bubbles no resource problems, and even alacrity able to increase dps of forklighning to a ridiculous level, 5 more points means would be able to access forcelightning burns.

And then spamming forklightning and 1.1-1.2 forklightnings when it procs followed by a instant crushing darkness.

And a instant chainlightning (who had the critical multiplier too)

 

So you understand the hybrid, but you didn't understand the maths behind it.

 

Edit sleepy , forklightning is forcelightning, But the build contained forklightning too.

 

Edit 2 since it is going to be gone in 3.0

The whole rotation was affliction followed by lightning strike, thus proc instant chainlightning, and hasted forcelightning, forcelightning to get instant crushing darkness, then chainlightning. Lightning strikes (to try get 3 forcebuff stackings) and rinse and repeat. Deathfield and shock are mobility casts when casting force lightning or lightning strikes isn't possible

 

Lightning strike has forklightning and 120% critical multiplier thus able to reach 5-6k damage if criticals. (for a GCD cast isn't bad)

Chainlightning had a 6-8k damage if critical.

Everything was based on on GCD and lowering GCD and cast time, cause alacrity affected forcelightning 2x.

And pushing your cast and GCD down.

Still pure madness had a slightly higher dps, unless you reached certain treshhold of alacrity.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Drake_Hound

[Gallaby]

Looks like WoWification. Too bad.

[TonyBuss]

How will DPS Disciplines get the +3% accuracy? Will Accuracy be a Utility skill or will it be passive in the DPS Discipline?

[Drake_Hound]

How will DPS Disciplines get the +3% accuracy? Will Accuracy be a Utility skill or will it be passive in the DPS Discipline?

 

That is a good question think passive, but none of us even bothered to ask. But yeah the accuracy 3% is really important if it is only stuck in the lightning discipline.

Cause the 3% accuracy is a must have for all dps builds.

[Wazupeth]

This is the classic example it wasn't deathfield that replaced thundering blast, it was instant crushing darkness that replaced thundering blast. Deathfield was just extra...

...So you understand the hybrid, but you didn't understand the maths behind it.

 

The "you are wrong" part was in regards to Disciplines being different than WoWs. Atm they are not looking any different.

As for the hybrids part. Yes I know all that, but I was speaking from my point of view. I don't do ops or pvp, I mostly play solo. So for clearing trash daily i prefer Death Field over Crushing Darkness. Because of the insta cast aoe and mobility it gives me. And the no-cd Force Lightning ofc. But I could live without one, it's just that I want to decide which I have to get rid of.

[Drake_Hound]

The "you are wrong" part was in regards to Disciplines being different than WoWs. Atm they are not looking any different.

As for the hybrids part. Yes I know all that, but I was speaking from my point of view. I don't do ops or pvp, I mostly play solo. So for clearing trash daily i prefer Death Field over Crushing Darkness. Because of the insta cast aoe and mobility it gives me. And the no-cd Force Lightning ofc. But I could live without one, it's just that I want to decide which I have to get rid of.

 

what they show for those who don't like madness spec (honestly boring dots)

The new instant lightning spell should help a lot with trash, that and mobility casting and rejuvenation (instead of dark infusion) only gives lightning a buff, without having to go into deathfield.

Yeah I understand your pain, cause my sorc is very hybrid orientated for pve (I didn't even pvp with the toon, or even told anyone about this spec) after my hybrid PT dps got nerfed so much to the ground, that was forced to play pyro.

 

Look as long they don't mess basic abilities, and do not simplify the game (by removing abilities) to satisfy the lazy people too much buttons, think no cooldown forcelightning is the utility tree.

Sadly deathfield isn't .

Edited October 8, 2014 by Drake_Hound

[Rawbee]

It seems to me a good thing, since most people will point out your mistakes in picking your skills from the skill tree.

I could be wrong but I get the feeling that everyone basically chooses the same abilities from their class trees by necessity. I do know that when I look at the skill trees I just MEH at some of the choices. I try to see what some of the tree abilities will give you but for the most part I just say to myself "Why is this ability even there?".

They did say that you would be able to change your spec on the fly if you are not in combat, so why dual spec?

You can infinitely spec, albeit your choices are limited to your class disciplines.

Too many times I have seen rotations posted, people in groups commenting on the cycles, and I have made the conclusion that there is really not a good incentive to deviate from the normal rotation of the class. Unless you like to be trolled.

 

I have just started getting into playing this after trying years ago and I would say that I am entertained, but the skill tree has just been a side note with no real value to my classes. I continually just pick a skill based on progression and never look at the other trees as they don't offer any progression to my class at all.

 

 

Maybe it is getting a WoW-ish, but I think since WoW still is going strong with millions of subscribers, who could blame them.

 

Let's see how this works out.

[Eciruam-Lore]

Odds are this will destroy PVP and take away from individuality in the game, and from what it sounds like, the only reason they done this was so that they don't have to work. So once again they have done something for themselves and to hell with us. Why do they consistently screw this game up, the second the nickel and dime F2P model came out, this has been one stumble away from a console game for 10 year olds. Start listening to us Devs before you guys are out of a job.

[Vairden]

Alright, after watching the stream, the skepticism I posted about earlier has turned to cautious optimism. I'm not willing to jump entirely on board with the Disciplines concept, but I'm on board enough give you my $20 and see how it goes.

 

I'm still very concerned about the inability to cleanse DoTs, only cleansing CCs, and longer CD on cleanses. I shudder when I think about HM DP Council fight with nerfed cleanses. It feels very much like PVP healing was the only healing considered by the devs, but that is a topic for another thread.

 

Overall, good job on the stream folks. You provided what I (at least) asked for and needed to hear/see; solid examples of how the Discipline system will be implemented. Thank you.

[Ryuku-sama]

Alright, after watching the stream, the skepticism I posted about earlier has turned to cautious optimism. I'm not willing to jump entirely on board with the Disciplines concept, but I'm on board enough give you my $20 and see how it goes.

 

I'm still very concerned about the inability to cleanse DoTs, only cleansing CCs, and longer CD on cleanses. I shudder when I think about HM DP Council fight with nerfed cleanses. It feels very much like PVP healing was the only healing considered by the devs, but that is a topic for another thread.

 

Overall, good job on the stream folks. You provided what I (at least) asked for and needed to hear/see; solid examples of how the Discipline system will be implemented. Thank you.

 

I wouldn,t be surprised if heals got a CD reduction in their discipline.

[DarthDymond]

One thing I was really happy to see in the Dev Stream was that the new ability for the lvl 55-60 range is going to be a "this is a better version of an existing move" ability.

 

We were on the cusp of genuine ability bloat, so I think having the new ability be an outright replacement is a great way to keep the progression feel as you raise the level cap, without adding to already crowded rotations.

Edited October 8, 2014 by DarthDymond

[Wazupeth]

what they show for those who don't like madness spec (honestly boring dots)

The new instant lightning spell should help a lot with trash, that and mobility casting and rejuvenation (instead of dark infusion) only gives lightning a buff, without having to go into deathfield.

Yeah I understand your pain, cause my sorc is very hybrid orientated for pve (I didn't even pvp with the toon, or even told anyone about this spec) after my hybrid PT dps got nerfed so much to the ground, that was forced to play pyro.

 

Look as long they don't mess basic abilities, and do not simplify the game (by removing abilities) to satisfy the lazy people too much buttons, think no cooldown forcelightning is the utility tree.

Sadly deathfield isn't .

 

I agree, as long as the basics are not cockedup and dps gets some actually useful aoe I'm game. I bought the expansion and my sub is till january, so I'll have a mont to check it out. I won't scratch the game off untill i check the changes myself.

@Rawbee

The point of Dual Spec would be so we won't have to choose utilities each time. I also worry about the action bars after resetting Discipline. If they'll remember all my settings then fine, 7 clicks isn't that bad. Bu what if we have to rearrange them every single time? Same with managing gear. Changing from dps to heal in a raid will be somewhat frustrating: allocate utilities, change action bars and then click each gear item to change it. That's a bit 2008 isn't it? And I honestly don't believe it would take a lot of work for a small team delegatet just for this one task(say 10-15 devs)

[jarika]

All chars at end game will have same skills now, same armor. it will be ATTACK OF THE CLONES lol

old saying - if it aint broken dont fix it,

 

new mmorpgs coming out are offering flexibility, like a priest dps, an archer mage. Why Bioware are u going backwards. let people choose how they play, that what good gaming about, freedom.

 

why not have one server still run old skill tree option,

or do a poll and ask your players what they prefer

Edited October 8, 2014 by jarika

[Ryuku-sama]

All chars at end game will have same skills now, same armor. it will be ATTACK OF THE CLONES lol

old saying - if it aint broken dont fix it,

 

Because your Madness Sorc wasn't the same your guildies were using? Except a few passives changing from fight to fight, endgame specs were exactly the same.

[warstory]

just watched the stream they took away root on overload , they didnt add hard stun to stun bubble. lightning will not be op even in todays world if all those changes went in.

[LordHartigan]

why does bioware hate hybrids so much? on almost every class i play i play a hybrid. why? not because i find some exploit or way to get better DPS (though some do offer that), but because its fun. it's an unnatural rotation that wasn't spoonfed to me by some narrow-minded tree that wishes to dictate how i play. i get to adapt, learn new skills. it is a challenge to overcome and, once mastered, becomes just as if not more deadly than playing normally.

 

as a sniper, i love the engineering tree, but i dont want my heaviest hitting ability to come from an exploit where i drop all five bombs in one place. so i would rather hybrid and not take that ability at all. i like sniping, so i'll pick up some goods from marksman, but keep some engineering around for the explosive fun. sure, some people call that an inferior way to play, but i find it more enjoyable. is that not what matters in a game?

 

another example: on my sorceror, to hybrid lightning with madness is very effective. to cut out the top tier of lightning for madness is very rewarding when death field is more deadly than thundering blast, and has an AOE instant cast, and then getting force lightning with no cooldown + the ability to cast lightning strike or darkness instantly. combined with the lightning tree instant cast perks, it pretty much means that i can throw alacrity out the window entirely and not suffer for it. perhaps you could call this an exploit. but should not the game developers award me for sticking with "their" way, if that's really what they want? in such a case, i would suffer much more for deviating.

 

yet, a good game developer doesn't say "this is how you will play, and no other" they give you a reason to play the way they want you to, to choose certain skills in a tree. even still, i find it incredibly boring to play exactly what some guide told me to play or to be using the same skills as everyone around me, even if it is effective. when you look exactly like every other sorcerer and fight like every other sorcerer, what's the point?

 

they keep saying this will add diversity, and i'm not cutting the game off just yet as i will wait and see if this is true. but right now, following a linear path of zero choice while having a few pick-up perks on the side seems way to straightforward, easy, and boring. i sincerely hope i am proven wrong later...

 

I can relate to this in a way and as such explain maybe why they did this. I loved deception assassin. It was my fun to play spec, but as many know they just couldn't hang in overall dps with other dps classes in progression raiding. So what do you do. Do you stick with a system where some classes are not going to be viable in endgame PvE or do you sacrifice hybrid specs? Tough choice, but I think they made the right one.

[belhawk]

bw isn't increasing diversity, but reducing it. They are destroying hybrids because they are better than the main line classes that they want us to play. BW doesn't care abt how we want to play the game, they just want us to play the game the way they want us to play. Remember ME3 ending, destroying the universe so that it wouldn't be possible to have another shepard game.

[LawJed]

I just finished lvling my Jedi Sage not long ago, ans was liking my heal abilities, now lets hope this Disciplines thing doesn't ruin my healing as it is

[Gleneagle]

If they have to manage the scope of builds in order to have a realistic chance of developing a bunch of good class content, then it seems like a net gain for us. It seems reasonable to me that if an environment is to be usefully balanced the designers must be able to predict what the players can bring to the party, right?

[Ceasaigh]

WoW did this and it was awesome!

 

Been looking forward to this for a long time.

[LordHartigan]

bw isn't increasing diversity, but reducing it. They are destroying hybrids because they are better than the main line classes that they want us to play. BW doesn't care abt how we want to play the game, they just want us to play the game the way they want us to play. Remember ME3 ending, destroying the universe so that it wouldn't be possible to have another shepard game.

 

I think by better you mean unbalanced.

[Sarafain]

I just read about ranged classes being able to cast while on the move and have some concerns for melee players.

 

1 - PvP: This means melee players are going to have to continuously chase ranged. Any "gap openners" ranged currently use are going to become much more powerful. Basically melee will become easier to kite and kill.

 

2 - PvE: Many fights are already more ranged friendly. With ranged increased mobility will melee see a comparable increase in their dps?

 

I'm not against the changes just want confirmation that melee won't be left behind.

[Vember]

I just read about ranged classes being able to cast while on the move and have some concerns for melee players.

 

1 - PvP: This means melee players are going to have to continuously chase ranged. Any "gap openners" ranged currently use are going to become much more powerful. Basically melee will become easier to kite and kill.

 

2 - PvE: Many fights are already more ranged friendly. With ranged increased mobility will melee see a comparable increase in their dps?

 

I'm not against the changes just want confirmation that melee won't be left behind.

 

Also concerned about this. As it already stands, ranged is pretty much easy mode in both pve and pvp compared to melee (yes I play both archetypes).

 

Also - when are we going to get a glimpse at the disciplines for other classes?

[G_Hosa_Phat]

I just read about ranged classes being able to cast while on the move and have some concerns for melee players.

 

1 - PvP: This means melee players are going to have to continuously chase ranged. Any "gap openners" ranged currently use are going to become much more powerful. Basically melee will become easier to kite and kill.

 

2 - PvE: Many fights are already more ranged friendly. With ranged increased mobility will melee see a comparable increase in their dps?

 

I'm not against the changes just want confirmation that melee won't be left behind.

 

One thing they showed in the stream was that this Heroic level Utility will only affect ONE ability in a given Discipline. For example, a Corruption Sorcerer taking this Utility (it isn't an automatic "gimme", and you don't get access to it until after level 55) will only be able to channel Innervate while on the move. The other non-instant abilities (Dark Heal, Crushing Darkness, Force Lightning, Dark Infusion, etc.) still require the Sorc to stand still while casting/channeling. I can't remember the specific ability names that are affected under the other two Disciplines right now, but it's only one ability in each.

Edited October 8, 2014 by G_Hosa_Phat

[Infernixx]

Also concerned about this. As it already stands, ranged is pretty much easy mode in both pve and pvp compared to melee (yes I play both archetypes).

 

Also - when are we going to get a glimpse at the disciplines for other classes?

 

They've said that they'll be reviewing each class before 3.0 goes live. Probably one or two per week until then.

 

That said, before we freak out about the new mobile casts for ranged, let's see what they have for melee in 3.0.