Bioware: Is Crafting to Win™ intended?

[ParagonAX]

Before I give my opinion, I have a question. Where did all the mats come from? Yes, if you send out all your companions to make war supplies, you can generate points very quickly. However, it take about an hour's worth of gathering to get the mats. If you buy the mats from the GTN, the cost can range from maybe 20K to 50K.

 

What was the GTN like on your server? With two guilds going at it like that, did the war supplies mats shoot up in price?

 

I ask these questions in good faith. Some info about me and my guild: We've won a planet on four of the six weeks. We lost the Trade Emporium week by a tiny amount. We thought that we had won, but the (smaller) guild behind us used a big crafting bomb in the final few minutes to add close to a million points that we had no time to respond to.

 

Combinations of gathering missions, gathering by scavenging kills, and GTN purchases.

[Churb]

He raised the issue because both he and his guild can't keep up much longer, nothing more. If he could persist in spamming crafting to oblivion to conquer planets, I'm sure he would.

 

You falsely and without substantiation think we cannot do it again. The only issue at hand here is that conquest is simply too powerful a point gain, due to being so easily repeated and can be done when not even logged into the game.

 

le sigh

[CmdrShpd]

I personally do not have a gazillion credits. But my guild collectively have several orders of magnitude more than 500 mil, and we will do it over and over again if necessary to win.

 

Uh...really? I'll be generous and say that "several" means only three in this case. 3 orders of magnitude more than 500 million would be...500 billion. Sorry, I don't believe you have that much.

[ParagonAX]

The funny thing is that my guild had people running operations, pvp, and flashpoints and if we only had to do those things to win, we would. However it doesn't play out like that, at the end of the day (or week) it comes down to crafting. It's not like there was an unspoken truce between competitive guilds to not craft and see who could win via other means. If one guild falls behind they would inevitably have to resort to crafting and any sort of close battle would turn into a crafting war supplemented with the other fp/pvp/gsf objectives.

 

Precisely. I personally ran all 3 FP dailies and all of my toons, every single day. We also organized a ton of ops weekly runs and PvP runs.

 

But at the end of the day all that gives minuscule points compared to crafting.

[Raansu]

People still care about conquest? Man that crap is so irrelevant that I forgot it even existed.

[TUXs]

We've never won a planet, but we finished our guild ship unlocks on Sunday (15/15)...so...what do you mean "crafting to win"? What exactly did you win by doing this?

[DOHboy]

Uh...really? I'll be generous and say that "several" means only three in this case. 3 orders of magnitude more than 500 million would be...500 billion. Sorry, I don't believe you have that much.

 

you assume they understand what "orders of magnitude" actually mean.

[Darth_Wicked]

People still care about conquest? Man that crap is so irrelevant that I forgot it even existed.

 

It sure sounds like the perfect way to burn yourself up.

[CaptRogue]

PvP points have been nerfed signifcantly by absolute numbers.

 

PvE points have been nerfed significantly as well by making FP / operations non-repeatable.

 

PvP have not been nerfed in some ways. 250 each WZ, 500 if you win! 750 per WZ if you win. They did that to stop the PvE'rs running in & standing on a node or in a corner.

 

They did not nerf the Operations, you could run them on each toon & get the GF reward each toon & it counted for CPs. When it changed Ops, start all over.

 

Still reads a lot like you're QQing.

 

"IF" you do NOT like the "crafting to win" route, then why did you do it?! I & others have already stated how you can do it with out it, but you refuse to acknowledge that route. Instead you say you don't like it, but yet you did it... Hmm interesting...

 

And just a thought: IF it it's NOT working as intended to go the crafting route, since you brought that up, then you do realize, YOU & your WHOLE guild just majorly exploited a bug?? You better hope it is working as intended. Or you might be in trouble.

[ParagonAX]

Uh...really? I'll be generous and say that "several" means only three in this case. 3 orders of magnitude more than 500 million would be...500 billion. Sorry, I don't believe you have that much.

 

1. Who said 3?

 

2. Collectively, we have perhaps >50 billion. I personally know 2 players who have >2 billion by themselves, each.

 

3. I said we spent mats worth 500 million. Not spent 500 million to buy mats. There is a difference.

 

4. I can't believe people are still getting stuck on this, and not on the main point for the thread.

 

Edit: thanks for the condescending tone DOHboy, unfortunately I am somewhat intelligent and I know perfectly well what orders of magnitude mean.

Edited September 29, 2014 by ParagonAX

[TheWookiee]

Our guild has made the leaderboard each week through a combination of Conquest goals, but we discussed internally (and with a little awe) the battle between WOOK and Triumph this week.

 

We watched as both guilds racked up huge numbers knowing that the reason for these numbers was crafting since it is the only way in which a guild can see numbers ten times higher than their 3rd place competitor.

 

As a guild, we've concluded that we will not see a Conquest victory under these conditions. We simply don't see the point in it. We craft only to round out our personal Conquest totals and refuse to waste materials trying to "win" a title and the ego boost that comes with a first place finish.

 

The prizes for first place aren't worth it. The boredom of grinding materials and queuing up endless crafting missions isn't worth it. The cost isn't worth the return.

 

I assume that EA/BW is watching these each week and discussing adjustments to the system much as they've already adjusted PvP and PvE objectives, but until they make a move we should all understand that crafting will reign as the deciding factor between finishes.

This hits the nail on the head for our guild. We have hit 3rd place twice and been in the top 10 for each conquest. The guildship is 100% unlocked, the stronghold as well. There is really little need for us to be competing for mass conquest points in reality as the interest is fading fast. The money and time we spent unlocking the guildship was very rewarding, but to put forth that effort and money/time toward a title? It just doesn't hold weight.

 

The conquest point system was very subjective at best. It pretty much shunned raiders running HM/NiM content completely, put way too much emphasis on groupfinder and PvP with the crafting bringing the mass points. While I understand the purpose of having it set up as is, I am fine with that, but why wans't HM/NiM and Ranked PvP (wins not participation) content also equally important? It kind of makes me laugh when I brought this up on PTS and everyone shunned me stating Raiders would run away and dominate conquest, particularly with crafting the way it is.

[CmdrShpd]

1. Who said 3?

 

2. Collectively, we have perhaps >50 billion. I personally know 2 players who have >2 billion by themselves.

 

3. I said we spent mats worth 500 million. Not spent 500 million to buy mats.

 

4. I can't believe people are still getting stuck on this, and not on the main point for the thread.

 

You said "several." Several always means more than two.

[Churb]

PvP have not been nerfed in some ways. 250 each WZ, 500 if you win! 750 per WZ if you win. They did that to stop the PvE'rs running in & standing on a node or in a corner.

 

They did not nerf the Operations, you could run them on each toon & get the GF reward each toon & it counted for CPs. When it changed Ops, start all over.

 

Still reads a lot like you're QQing.

 

"IF" you do NOT like the "crafting to win" route, then why did you do it?! I & others have already stated how you can do it with out it, but you refuse to acknowledge that route. Instead you say you don't like it, but yet you did it... Hmm interesting...

 

And just a thought: IF it it's NOT working as intended to go the crafting route, since you brought that up, then you do realize, YOU & your WHOLE guild just majorly exploited a bug?? You better hope it is working as intended. Or you might be in trouble.

 

this post is so full of stupid, le sigh.

 

1. without a doubt having to craft to win is undesirable, yes, as you mentioned you can do without it, if you want to lose.

2. not liking something doesn't mean you don't do it, that mentality is for children and imbeciles, many people don't like going to work, but they do because of the benefits of doing so. We very much disliked having to craft in order to win, but we did it because of the benefit of winning.

3. the question for bioware is not "is crafting a bug", rather "seeing as crafting is the only way to win against another focused guild, is your intention for it to be the only way to solidify victory"

[mattycutts]

Damn them for adding something for those players that enjoy crafting!

 

Well to be honest, i too like crafting but like a conveyor belt. lol

 

OP is right, the main route to victory is through crafting. numbers speak for them selfs each and every week.

 

a guild of 30 doing fp's, opps, pvp etc v a guild of 30 crafters with bottomless pockets, will win each and every week.

 

Our guild is a average size guild, and achieve a healthy total each week, but we already conceeded we wont win a planet on red eclipse and happy for top 10.

 

i love crafting but when its got purpose in my eyes, make credits, to be part of other crafting etc, ive got loads of war supplys, invasion kits etc, stopped crafting after testing it out, no matter what week it is, i will score more doing crafting than doing fp's during fp week, surely that isnt intended.

[JasonNH]

Cliffs for those just joining:

 

1. The SWTOR forum has a lot of contributors who are bad at math and/or discerning what is, and is not the point in a discussion.

 

2. The fact remains that no other conquest activity can compete with the potential output of crafting.

 

I'd be curious to know Bioware's analysis of the situation and whether it is intended as well. In the end of the day, I don't care too much one way or another but the reality of the situation doesn't seem to line up well with the intended theme.

[Nepthen]

I'm with you, Paragon. Crafting needs tweaked in some way. It should be used to boost individual numbers for characters (say if you're 5k short and won't have time to run PvP/PvE anymore) not to be fed constant mats to put up numbers that are insane.

 

And of course Triumph crafted to win, they had to keep pace with WOOK. If Triumph just did Warzones all week, you think they could put up 42M? Hell no.

 

And before everyone starts throwing jabs my direction, my guild has won planets with crafting as well. We won the first week because of a crafting war with another guild. At the time, we put up nearly 12M points, which was the most in the game. Yes, paltry numbers compared to the 42M and 36M put up by Triumph and WOOK this week but even then, people were saying crafting was a bit extreme. I agree.

 

Will we continue to do it if we're on a crafting planet and are being pushed? You bet. Will Triumph keep doing it if they're pushed? Yes. But just because the big guilds are willing and able to do it doesn't mean that it isn't an issue, one in which BioWare hasn't addressed.

 

My hat is off to Triumph and WOOK for the incredible effort each put into this week's conquest. Truly impressive.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Nepthen

[Darth_Wicked]

Maybe you are right. Despite what you (or the person you quoted) thinks though, crafting is totally sustainable for us, base on our collective wealth.

 

All I want is for BW to say whether or not this is intended.

 

Hey, for all I know BW may come out and say "Hey players! Crafting to win is absolutely intended! We want it to be a massive credit and mats sink! Craft away while we laugh at you in our offices!"

 

As I mentioned later...

It sure sounds like the perfect way to burn yourself up.

 

Something to which you implied in your post...

Some of my guildies were so stressed all week they were dreaming of mats in their sleep. I never want to see another War Supply again.

 

Again, the issue is not so much whether it is working as intended but the fact people will burn themselves up, sooner or later.

 

If not for that, as mentioned earlier, you'd post on Reddit the "Epic Battle of <next planet here>" next week.

[Deewe]

My guess is Bioware made an assumption that eventually all the extra mats hanging out there would get cleared out, and the crafting to win option would no longer be viable. However, the problem with that is that mats are restorable, so although it lessens the numbers over times a bit, it doesn't eliminate the method, just makes it slightly more difficult. (Instead of using up stashed mats, you actually need to save them up and plan when to use them.)

 

The same problem was pointed out with repeatable FP objectives, which they removed, and PvP, which although a good way to farm points, is at least limited to one toon at a time, and only when you can actively play, whereas crafting can be completed on every toon you have, and while offline.

 

I have doubt there will be adjustments, but I'm not sure how they can "fix" crafting without completely nerfing it. PvE and PvP objectives all have daily/weekly missions you can tie repeatable objectives to in order to limit them, but crafting does not, so they would have to put the limitations into the conquest system itself.

Wanted to highlight the following post.

 

We all agree it's a good thing to have something for crafter. However there are two main issues here.

 

First, as mentioned by the OP, the numbers from crafting counter parts in conquests aren't set on the same scale. And you can guess BioWare had no clue people could go that high and even less would be able to sustain the pace. I dare saying it can be even worse.

 

Then, for some part, you can earn conquest points while being offline vs actually playing the game. So you can log on all your alts, send them for gathering missions come back one hour later and repeat. Once you get the mats you log again on your toons send them crafting and done.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Deewe

[aeterno]

If they "fix" this it'll only get replaced by the "Bioware: Is being in a 500 member guild an intended prerequisite for a win" threads...

[ParagonAX]

Cliffs for those just joining:

 

1. The SWTOR forum has a lot of contributors who are bad at math and/or discerning what is, and is not the point in a discussion.

 

2. The fact remains that no other conquest activity can compete with the potential output of crafting.

 

I'd be curious to know Bioware's analysis of the situation and whether it is intended as well. In the end of the day, I don't care too much one way or another but the reality of the situation doesn't seem to line up well with the intended theme.

 

I'm with you, Paragon. Crafting needs tweaked in some way. It should be used to boost individual numbers for characters (say if you're 5k short and won't have time to run PvP/PvE anymore) not to be fed constant mats to put up numbers that are insane.

 

And of course Triumph crafted to win, they had to keep pace with WOOK. If Triumph just did Warzones all week, you think they could put up 42M? Hell no.

 

And before everyone starts throwing jabs my direction, my guild has won planets with crafting as well. We won the first week because of a crafting war with another guild. At the time, we put up nearly 12M points, which was the most in the game. Yes, paltry numbers compared to the 42M and 36M put up by Triumph and WOOK this week but even then, people were saying crafting was a bit extreme. I agree.

 

Will we continue to do it if we're on a crafting planet and are being pushed? You bet. Will Triumph keep doing it if they're pushed? Yes. But just because the big guilds are willing and able to do it doesn't mean that it isn't an issue, one in which BioWare hasn't addressed.

 

My hat is off to Triumph and WOOK for the incredible effort each put into this week's conquest. Truly impressive.

 

Thanks for understanding what the thread is about!

[Brewski]

Again, the issue is not so much whether it is working as intended but the fact people will burn themselves up, sooner or later.

 

Although as long as the numbers are this skewed, it will always be whichever guild is not burned out on crafting that wins. Maybe it won't be Triumph and WOOK every week, but someone will be willing to craft to win a planet, and crafting will always outpace PvP and PvE with the current mechanics, so in the end it will come down to crafting to get the #1 spot.

 

Or it will require some minor tweaks to the objectives to bring crafting output into line with the PvE and PvP levels.

 

Since Bioware has already demonstrated a willingness to adjust conquest objectives to try and balance the paths out, I would be surprised if they don't tweak crafting a bit. I don't think it needs a full nerf, and I certainly hope it continues to be possible to craft yourself to your personal conquest every week, it just needs to be brought in line with the other paths.

[Grayseven]

It boils down to how the system is set up.

 

There are limits on PvE through the use of one time rewards for doing certain PvE things and daily limits on others.

 

PvP is limited through requiring victory and the points for simply engaging in PvP are low considering the time cost even if those points are endlessly repeatable.

 

Craftng, while a PvE activity, is only limited by materials and the time and credits spent obtaining those materials. While crafting, you can be doing other activities that earn you Conquest and only through crafting can you earn points while off line (even if you won't see them until you log in).

 

This puts crafting at the top of the food chain when it comes to Conquest points. If you aren't crafting, you aren't winning.

 

If I am running FP's and OP's I am earning enough credits to keep my companions out on gathering missions. One SM OP of S and V will give a toon enough credits to run missions nearly non-stop for a week. Credits aren't the problem.

 

For gathering, anyone who crafts know of the best places to grind out mats in a short amount of time...while your companions are off running missions.

 

Now let's not forget about alts. Some guilds have separate guilds set up for alts of main guild members. If those alts are doing nothing but running mat missions, they can feed mats to the main guild toon.

 

And on Monday, when nothing Conquest is being done, mats can be gathered. Many, many mats.

 

So mats aren't the problem.

 

The problem is the Conquest points given for crafting goals. Without limits and with the points being 1500 for a 2x bonus and a 100% Stronghold bonus, every 51 minutes or so you can get 7500 Conquest points for crafting. In less than the time it takes to run an OP you can get more than 1/5 your personal Conquest points.

 

Herein lies another problem though. Most people have limits to the amount of time they can play and crafting allows them to contribute to Conquest while enjoying their limited time with the assurance that they will make the weekly personal Conquest goal.

 

How far can crafting be limited without knocking people wholesale out of the Conquest system?

[TUXs]

It boils down to how the system is set up.

 

There are limits on PvE through the use of one time rewards for doing certain PvE things and daily limits on others.

 

PvP is limited through requiring victory and the points for simply engaging in PvP are low considering the time cost even if those points are endlessly repeatable.

 

Craftng, while a PvE activity, is only limited by materials and the time and credits spent obtaining those materials. While crafting, you can be doing other activities that earn you Conquest and only through crafting can you earn points while off line (even if you won't see them until you log in).

 

This puts crafting at the top of the food chain when it comes to Conquest points. If you aren't crafting, you aren't winning.

 

If I am running FP's and OP's I am earning enough credits to keep my companions out on gathering missions. One SM OP of S and V will give a toon enough credits to run missions nearly non-stop for a week. Credits aren't the problem.

 

For gathering, anyone who crafts know of the best places to grind out mats in a short amount of time...while your companions are off running missions.

 

Now let's not forget about alts. Some guilds have separate guilds set up for alts of main guild members. If those alts are doing nothing but running mat missions, they can feed mats to the main guild toon.

 

And on Monday, when nothing Conquest is being done, mats can be gathered. Many, many mats.

 

So mats aren't the problem.

 

The problem is the Conquest points given for crafting goals. Without limits and with the points being 1500 for a 2x bonus and a 100% Stronghold bonus, every 51 minutes or so you can get 7500 Conquest points for crafting. In less than the time it takes to run an OP you can get more than 1/5 your personal Conquest points.

 

Herein lies another problem though. Most people have limits to the amount of time they can play and crafting allows them to contribute to Conquest while enjoying their limited time with the assurance that they will make the weekly personal Conquest goal.

 

How far can crafting be limited without knocking people wholesale out of the Conquest system?

Very good post. It details perfectly the actual issue.

[Andryah]

If you re-read my post, you will realise that there is no other route to victory.

 

That is what I am getting at. Given that BW intended each week to be a different theme, shouldn't playing those content lead to victory?

 

Actually... you presented us with a very narrow set of criteria for launching into this forum rant. Let's recap the context you set:

 

• No matter which week, no matter what kind of "theme", be it FPs, operations, warzones, non of that matters
  
• The only way to win against an equally determined guild is to craft to victory, not to play the game
  

 

You set the context.... to win against an equally determined guild... you will have to use ALL THE TOOLS given you... which includes crafting. What a shock....the concept of determination in competition between teams.

 

In reality, crafting is unsustainable in the long term... BUT it's also a level playing field to all crafters. I believe it is part of the point system in Conquest precisely to give guilds more options in how they compete. It also soaks a mountain of crafting materials out of the economy too.. which is not a bad thing.. but materials stocks that were hoarded in advance of Conquest going live.. these eventually dry up and we are left with material gathering wars and that is time consuming and boring enough that many players will only contribute on a very limited basis.

 

But I get it... you want to exclude game elements from the competitive play that you and your guild do not want to commit resources to. But to use your context.. IF you are a guild competing against other guilds to win at any cost... then naturally you would use every point generating element of the completion to your advantage.. right?

Edited September 29, 2014 by Andryah

[PavSalco]

I think the solution is simple. At the moment the basic points we get from crafting is 500. If Bioware decreases that number to 200, then it will be on a par with PVE and PVP objectives.

 

But it could hurt other crafters that don't have such huge amount of materials. A guild like yours could be a marginal case, so it might be better to let you conquer all the planets, because then you won't see the point in participating in those events anymore.