Operations and Real Life Aggro

[Jimfa]

I am amazed at how disgustingly angry players become when someone drops an operations group. I watch it happen to others, and I just had it happen to myself. Thickness of skin aside, it is incredibly depressing to see that people think its okay to say things like "Eat s**t" and "Go f*** yourself" when real life calls. Increasingly highly geared players are downright nasty to lesser geared players trying to learn the ropes. Since when does belittling and berating help? Are people in such a damn rush to be super cool in video game land to help others out or at a minimum, be decent human beings? Internet Anonymity Theory at its finest.

 

Is anyone else seeing this on the rise? I swear it's gotten worse in the last couple weeks.

 

I got it, don't commit to an operation when you may not have the time. But it is a GAME. Go find another player to fill the void and move on. Not everyone has the ability to sit at their computer for 3+ hours for an operation to form, figure stuff out, and complete.

 

Hopefully this sparks some conversation. I feel bad dropping an op, but sometimes you just have to walk away. At the end of the day, Real Life >> SWTOR.

[AlixMV]

It's nothing new, but let me spin it a bit.

 

Not everyone has the ability to sit at their computer for 3+ hours for an operation to form, figure stuff out, and complete.

 

With that one sentence, you've hit on at least one of the major and I believe legitimate gripes that people have when someone drops out of an Operation midway through.

 

You're speaking from the perspective of someone who has to drop out. But look at it from the other side. Someone's either put together or joined an Operation attempt, usually with goal parameters up front ("up to weekly", "full run", etc.). There's a pretty clear expectation set. Then, it may take a while for that group to form up. People have been patient and waiting to go.

 

Then they get halfway through, maybe it's got super smooth and things are moving along, and some person says "I'm out of time, gotta go."

 

Then they have to try to fill in the spot, when, again, it might've taken time to put together, meaning even more time waiting.

 

Y'know what? If you knew you weren't going to have time to finish the Op, why did you even start? That kind of behavior indicates that your time, your RL time, is more important than anyone else's. It's a lack of consideration for the spot you put the rest of the Op group in and the time you make them waste because of poor planning.

 

I'm not saying every time it happens, it's like that. I've been in plenty of PUG Op groups where things have gone pear-shaped and stuff that should've taken 90 minutes, tops, has taken 3-4 hours, and in that case, the person couldn't have forseen that they'd have to bow out at hour #2. Unforseen things happen, like thunderstorms or a RL emergency or whatever.

 

But that's one example of why I think people are, and would have the right, to be a little upset at the person leaving, no matter how legitimate their reason.

Edited September 25, 2014 by AlixMV

[Kryand]

Probably 90% of the time people claim they have to leave for a legit reason, they are lying and just don't feel like finishing the run. So while you may be the exception that actually has an emergency come up, no one is going to believe it in a random pug.

[JouerTue]

might be GF?

[Amantino]

So because it's a game, your time is more valuable than everyone elses? I don't know whats worse; Considering everyone elses time less valuable than your own, or telling someone to go f*** themselves?

 

Reliability is important. People will talk down at you if you waste their time. Stop doing so or stop being offended when they get annoyed.

[Banegio]

It is all a matter of context and relevance.

 

And that context differs for everyone.

 

If the world ends in the next hour, whatever your so call "real life aggro" that seemed more important than mmo may not be so important now?

 

I remember a mini-Paradigm Shift I experienced one Sunday morning on a subway in New York. People were sitting quietly -- some reading newspapers, some lost in thought, some resting with their eyes closed. It was a calm, peaceful scene.

 

Then suddenly, a man and his children entered the subway car. The children were so loud and rambunctious that instantly the whole climate changed.

 

The man sat down next to me and closed his eyes, apparently oblivious to the situation. The children were yelling back and forth, throwing things, even grabbing people's papers. It was very disturbing. And yet, the man sitting next to me did nothing.

 

It was difficult not to feel irritated. I could not believe that he could be so insensitive to let his children run wild like that and do nothing about it, taking no responsibility at all. It was easy to see that everyone else on the subway felt irritated, too. So finally, with what I felt was unusual patience and restraint, I turned to him and said, "Sir, your children are really disturbing a lot of people. I wonder if you couldn't control them a little more?"

 

The man lifted his gaze as if to come to a consciousness of the situation for the first time and said softly, "Oh, you're right. I guess I should do something about it. We just came from the hospital where their mother died about an hour ago. I don't know what to think, and I guess they don't know how to handle it either."

 

extract from <THE SEVEN HABITS OF HIGHLY EFFECTIVE PEOPLE> - Stephen Covey 1989

Edited September 26, 2014 by Banegio

[Gyronamics]

Is anyone else seeing this on the rise?

 

No.

 

That's because I'm in a raiding guild and all the members make sure to have time available for the allocated raid time or they get recognised as unreliable and brought less or never.

 

Side effects are also filtering out younger players who have less control over their time.

 

When there's 15 other people setting aside hours for a raid and trusting their weeks lockouts to the group it's incredibly selfish to join in with any risk of mom telling you to do your homework.

 

RL aggro crashing our raids happens incredibly rarely, if there is any risk we almost always know of it beforehand.

 

But that's commitment and PUGs can't be trusted to have any of that or respect for other peoples time. Fully expect to be unpopular if you waste a raids time and lockouts by ditching them.

[Jimfa]

Look, I don't disagree with any of the points made above. Honestly. I have been on the side of losing people out of an operation group FAR more times than I have had to leave. It is frustrating, sure, especially when it takes a long time to put the group together (PUG). I have been there, I KNOW it sucks.

 

What I don't agree with is the way people seem to get disturbingly personal and down right crude about it. Get frustrated all you want, you've earned that right, but don't make a fool of yourself by acting like that. It's really not a question of whose time is more important, I apologize if that's the way my OP came across. What I wanted to get across (or rather vent about) is how terrible it is that people think its okay to talk to other people that way, regardless of it being a video game. I know, its getting touchy-feely in here, so I'll stop on this train of thought. This was the wrong place to vent that thought, but it frustrated me enough to want to get feedback. With that, I do appreciate all responses.

 

I think it's tricky to try and introduce Guild vs No Guild into this argument. If I had the time to put into Ops, I would love to be part of a guild that ran continuously and TAUGHT members the mechanics. As someone who sticks to PUGs, I could do with fewer guild players harassing and insulting non-guilded, F2P, or casual players. Help them learn to play if you really want to be a credit to your online community.

 

So what do I take out of this? It sucks for me, but I can't queue for ops. I feel like I miss out on content as a subscriber, but I'll get over it, or find time when it's a viable option for me.

 

I do, sincerely, apologize if I have wasted anyone's time by dropping from your ops group.

[Kufuffelupagus]

It's really not a question of whose time is more important, I apologize if that's the way my OP came across. What I wanted to get across (or rather vent about) is how terrible it is that people think its okay to talk to other people that way, regardless of it being a video game.

 

I think everyone's established that it's not appropriate to talk nasty to others who have to leave. But yes, a couple of things you said made it seem that those who are losing a member of a group should "fill the void and move on"- it's not that easy and it wastes many people's time.

 

So what do I take out of this? It sucks for me, but I can't queue for ops. I feel like I miss out on content as a subscriber, but I'll get over it, or find time when it's a viable option for me.

 

You don't have to not queue for operations... Just only join groups if you have the time set aside to complete them. If it's a full Story Mode run I would not expect it to take more than 2 hours; I think that's a reasonable amount of time to dedicate to it. (It should take an hour or less really.) Obviously, if something unpredictable happens and you can't continue, there's nothing you can do about that.

 

I have something to say about the stereotypes being mentioned here- the "Increasingly highly geared players" and the "guild players". Sure, maybe the undergeared people aren't the ones trash-talking, but it's worth noting that the "Increasingly highly geared players" are better-geared because they have dedicated time to it, something they don't appreciate being wasted. As for guild players apparently picking on non-guilded players- once again, those people are probably used to their guild mates putting time aside for raids and appreciating that it takes organisation, planning, and dedication to clear these operations... Something that some other people (sometimes unguilded, sometimes not) don't seem to understand.

[Ruskaeth]

Leaving from a pug group that has taken excessive time should be no problem and there is no reason to create an excuse for it. I would join a pug group taking on any group finder operation if I have 1½ hours of free time. If the operation is not finished in that time, I go and I seriously don't think twice about it. Last time I had to go because of desperately bad group, one of the players tried to guilt-trip me about it. I thought it was ridiculous. I also can't blame people who leave a pug group because they are capable of recognizing futility of the effort.

 

[AAAAzrael]

Ruskaeth while I 100% agree with you I hate that people don't have the guts to just say "People you suck so much this run is completely hopeless and I'm leaving" instead of providing false excuses of having to go, or outright "DCing" with Alt+F4.

[Ardarell_Solo]

It is all a matter of context and relevance.

 

And that context differs for everyone.

 

If the world ends in the next hour, whatever your so call "real life aggro" that seemed more important than mmo may not be so important now?

 

 

Quote:

I remember a mini-Paradigm Shift I experienced one Sunday morning on a subway in New York. People were sitting quietly -- some reading newspapers, some lost in thought, some resting with their eyes closed. It was a calm, peaceful scene.

 

Then suddenly, a man and his children entered the subway car. The children were so loud and rambunctious that instantly the whole climate changed.

 

The man sat down next to me and closed his eyes, apparently oblivious to the situation. The children were yelling back and forth, throwing things, even grabbing people's papers. It was very disturbing. And yet, the man sitting next to me did nothing.

 

It was difficult not to feel irritated. I could not believe that he could be so insensitive to let his children run wild like that and do nothing about it, taking no responsibility at all. It was easy to see that everyone else on the subway felt irritated, too. So finally, with what I felt was unusual patience and restraint, I turned to him and said, "Sir, your children are really disturbing a lot of people. I wonder if you couldn't control them a little more?"

 

The man lifted his gaze as if to come to a consciousness of the situation for the first time and said softly, "Oh, you're right. I guess I should do something about it. We just came from the hospital where their mother died about an hour ago. I don't know what to think, and I guess they don't know how to handle it either."

 

 

extract from <THE SEVEN HABITS OF HIGHLY EFFECTIVE PEOPLE> - Stephen Covey 1989

 

That just gave me goosebumps. And it's situations like these why I have become more and more cautious over the years in judging peope for their behaviour or commenting on it or even interfering. For you never know people's circumstances, obvious as they might seem. If in doubt, better ask first, and not make premature assumptions from your own perspective. Every person's got their own history, potentially personal tragedies and philosophy. What may look green to me, is another person's blue - not accounting for the fact that intersubjective perception itself is physically impossible in post modern culture, but that's another thing ;-)

[Ruskaeth]

Ruskaeth while I 100% agree with you I hate that people don't have the guts to just say "People you suck so much this run is completely hopeless and I'm leaving" instead of providing false excuses of having to go, or outright "DCing" with Alt+F4.

I didn't quite mean saying it like that.. one could always say "I don't see very bright future for this, I'll give it one more go" or something. At least there is a heads up then. Warning about running out of time 10 minutes before or even more is helpful also.

[ScarletBlaze]

While I agree that people sometimes do not consider real life important there is a fine line.

 

I know if I have x amount of time I normally let the group know. Example: I had an hour to two hours before I had to log for a final exam in college. Some friends I knew where creating a group, I let them know up front and they said no problem that it would be okay.

 

When you do this no one and I mean no one should yell or say anything to you if for some reason it doesn't work out they way it was suppose to and you have to leave.

 

If you are upfront with them and they said not to worry about it then there is no excuse for them to get upset or angry due to the fact you have to leave. They knew before hand.

 

And sometimes things happen in real life you have no control of. I will never yell or get angry at a person that has to leave for a real life emergency. I am not going to sit there and accuse someone of lying about it if I have no knowledge of that. I will accept what they say at face value. Unless we know for sure someone is lying we should not assume that what the person is saying is not true.

[Kymerous]

Personally, as far as PUG life goes.... MY real life time is way more important to me than YOUR game time....so if im in a raid and RL happens, could care less if I upset you...

 

As far as guild raiding goes....my guild believes "crap happens, crap pops up" we have backups on our prog teams for a reason.

[bdatt]

OP I don't see this kind of behavior very often in game, but when I do it's on Empire side. Sterotyping I know, but it's my observation. Most of the bad attitudes I see in general are in this forum in the "Weird People..." thread.

[fire-breath]

Please read the below with the following notes:

- I'm not raging when someone leaves and do understand there is a fairytale called RL

- The below is written with small sense of sarcasme. By no means I'm angry at the people from my example.

- See the points as statements which are not nessessarly my own opinion

 

 

The reasons why people are getting angry when you drop has many sides:

 

1 - only queue if you have the time to coomplete it

If you can't dedicate 1/1,5 hour to do TfB, DF or DP or 1,5/2 hour to do Scum than you really shouldn't queue for the operation. Don't forget you are dealing with other very real human beings which you just dropped like they are a tool for your personal enjoyment.

 

2 - DC, ragequit or real life aggro?

Its often very hard to know if its a real dc or other real life aggro since many people are ragequitting without saying so. Who tells me that its not just an excuse of yours that real life calls. Especially after we wiped a few times and/or we are past the weekly boss.

 

Example: DF Nefra NiM pug run from a few days ago

I joined on my scoundrel healer a group which failed on Nefra. Tanks were semi okey but we got enrage at about 35% HP. I switched with one of the dps and logged on my shadow which got us an enrage at 25%HP. We requested the other DPS to log on parsec so all would be inspired to push harder. This took a long time with lots of excuses like:"I'm clearing this all the time with my guild" , "my dps is good trust me", ect. After we insisted that they should log on regardless 2 dps all of a sudden got a dc. After that a tank and the other healer dropped out which left us with 4 people and 2 dc'ed dps'ers.

I invited a guildy of mine to heal and 2 other guildies to dps, switched to tank and started clearing trash again. This process took so long that 1 of the 'dc'ed' dps'ers logged back in again who immediatly logged off when he saw he was still in the group. Luckely we got another good dps'er and we one-shotted nefra.

 

This perfectly shows human mentality and why people are raging when someone 'has to go'.

 

3 - People leaving = group falls apart

Very often the group (almost) falls apart when 1 or 2 persons out of an 8 man group are leaving. The DF/DP SM and HM pugs which I do have about a 60/70% chance that the group calls it when this happens. This means you just wasted 7 peoples time and not to mention lockouts.

 

In my example from above we had to clear the trash before nefra again. Why? Because there was NONE left from the original team beside the opsleader and myself who both switched to other toons. Effectivly the group fell apart and we assembled a new team. Thx but no thx for wasting my time guys.

 

[bdatt]

Please read the below with the following notes:

- I'm not raging when someone leaves and do understand there is a fairytale called RL

- The below is written with small sense of sarcasme. By no means I'm angry at the people from my example.

- See the points as statements which are not nessessarly my own opinion

 

 

The reasons why people are getting angry when you drop has many sides:

 

1 - only queue if you have the time to coomplete it

If you can't dedicate 1/1,5 hour to do TfB, DF or DP or 1,5/2 hour to do Scum than you really shouldn't queue for the operation. Don't forget you are dealing with other very real human beings which you just dropped like they are a tool for your personal enjoyment.

 

2 - DC, ragequit or real life aggro?

Its often very hard to know if its a real dc or other real life aggro since many people are ragequitting without saying so. Who tells me that its not just an excuse of yours that real life calls. Especially after we wiped a few times and/or we are past the weekly boss.

 

Example: DF Nefra NiM pug run from a few days ago

I joined on my scoundrel healer a group which failed on Nefra. Tanks were semi okey but we got enrage at about 35% HP. I switched with one of the dps and logged on my shadow which got us an enrage at 25%HP. We requested the other DPS to log on parsec so all would be inspired to push harder. This took a long time with lots of excuses like:"I'm clearing this all the time with my guild" , "my dps is good trust me", ect. After we insisted that they should log on regardless 2 dps all of a sudden got a dc. After that a tank and the other healer dropped out which left us with 4 people and 2 dc'ed dps'ers.

I invited a guildy of mine to heal and 2 other guildies to dps, switched to tank and started clearing trash again. This process took so long that 1 of the 'dc'ed' dps'ers logged back in again who immediatly logged off when he saw he was still in the group. Luckely we got another good dps'er and we one-shotted nefra.

 

This perfectly shows human mentality and why people are raging when someone 'has to go'.

 

3 - People leaving = group falls apart

Very often the group (almost) falls apart when 1 or 2 persons out of an 8 man group are leaving. The DF/DP SM and HM pugs which I do have about a 60/70% chance that the group calls it when this happens. This means you just wasted 7 peoples time and not to mention lockouts.

 

In my example from above we had to clear the trash before nefra again. Why? Because there was NONE left from the original team beside the opsleader and myself who both switched to other toons. Effectivly the group fell apart and we assembled a new team. Thx but no thx for wasting my time guys.

 

For #2 would anyone actually be upset that a group enraging on Nefra at 25-35% fell apart? I'm surprised you stuck with it since it's not like that group was getting past Draxus. Groups that fail should break up or otherwise make changes (players, different content), not rack up repair bills indefinitely. Only problem I see if the stealth DC and not "hey this group doesn't have it tonight, I'm out."

Edited September 26, 2014 by bdatt

[fire-breath]

For #2 would anyone actually be upset that a group enraging on Nefra at 25-35% fell apart? I'm surprised you stuck with it since it's not like that group was getting past Draxus. Groups that fail should break up or otherwise make changes (players, different content), not rack up repair bills indefinitely. Only problem I see if the stealth DC and not "hey this group doesn't have it tonight, I'm out."

 

Ohw hell yeah. We should have kicked some dps out I know. But that wasnt the point I wanted to make Also the people leaving were kinda the offenders mostly. In this case I was happy they left

 

FYI: This was a Nefra NiM run with no intention ever to do Draxus. Not sure how common this is on other servers but on TRE there are quite some 'nefra nim only' pugruns

[lafr]

It's not about the game, it's about the time. If you don't have the time, do not queue and don't waste other players time.

[Kymerous]

It's not about the game, it's about the time. If you don't have the time, do not queue and don't waste other players time.

 

*thinks to self* hmm ok, imma go head and spend 2 hours raiding..... *45 minutes into raid child falls off bed, cracks skull open* "sorry son, youre screwed...nothing i can do till raid is over...i dont wanna abandon these people who are relying on my time"

 

its not always about not having the time...sometimes REAL LIFE HAPPENS...you know real life, that thing OUTSIDE your window

[Gardimuer]

*thinks to self* hmm ok, imma go head and spend 2 hours raiding..... *45 minutes into raid child falls off bed, cracks skull open* "sorry son, youre screwed...nothing i can do till raid is over...i dont wanna abandon these people who are relying on my time"

 

its not always about not having the time...sometimes REAL LIFE HAPPENS...you know real life, that thing OUTSIDE your window

 

Sound like you need to stop playing SWTOR and go buy a cradle for your child so that kind of accident doesn't happen. If "real life" involves the responsibility of taking care of a young child that requires attention every 45 minutes... don't try to get into a raid. It's that simple.

[lafr]

Yes, do your dailies, find another offline game. If you have an accident, you sure will leave. But if you know that your time is short, do not start it.

[Kymerous]

Sound like you need to stop playing SWTOR and go buy a cradle for your child so that kind of accident doesn't happen. If "real life" involves the responsibility of taking care of a young child that requires attention every 45 minutes... don't try to get into a raid. It's that simple.

 

good to see sarcasm isnt lost on you

[Icestar]

If you know you have to go AFK for a little while or got a little one at home that might need attention for a few minutes, say this in the beginning of the ops.

 

I know players are much more understanding if they know this beforehand then right during the bossfight.