The Scam/Not a Scam debate storyline

[PetFish]

Thank you Tux, I appreciate your support. Some people are not very nice here.

 

Just cuz people don't agree with you doesn't mean they are "not very nice". Sure, there might be a few, but mostly people are trying to say is to be careful with your purchases, especially if what you're buying costs a lot of credits for you personally.

 

I don't have a fortune to say "3 million credits is nothing" and I don't think you should be made to feel stupid cuz you made a mistake, but that's all it was, a mistake, I've made hundreds of them in 3.5 years playing this and it's all about learning from them. Heck, I've even made the same mistake MORE than once, at that point it's just funny, but move on and don't stress over stuff.

 

What item did you want? I'll see if I have it somewhere and I'll just give it to you (if you're on Harbinger).

 

Society, both real-life and virtual, MUST STOP trying to protect everyone from themselves and PEOPLE need to just start taking their OWN responsibility. Otherwise, let's just be WALL-E people now and get it over with.

 

Food for Thought: What about when you buy an item for 5 credits cuz the seller was inattentive? You just scammed the seller but that's ok as long as it benefits the buyer, right?

[TUXs]

Read the only BW post in this thread and you'll see they noted they can't determine if you are intentionally scamming or simply listing something for a high price. They advise paying close attention to what you are purchasing.

Sure they can, they simply don't want to. Intent is usually quite obvious with this scam.

[iacon]

I have seen these entries that get your eyes to play tricks on you. Are they intentional or are they mistakes? I am not a mind reader nor have any ability to see into the past so I cannot say for certain. I can only guess.

 

For myself, I sort by price and manually scroll down through the list to get the best unit price. I avoid all those far out, way overly priced items and find the ones that are actually a good deal. It does take more time to do, but since I know there are rather unscrupulous sellers there I do not rush through the transactions and save myself some headache later.

Edited July 1, 2015 by iacon

[TUXs]

What exactly are they guilty of? Listing things at obscenely high prices in the hopes of someone absentmindedly mistaking their high price for a bargain price, thanks to decimal placement and an inattentive eye?

 

If people paid attention to what they're doing, none of this would be a concern.

Yes. That's exactly why.

[TUXs]

I have seen these entries that get your eyes to play tricks on you. Are they intentional or are they mistakes? I am not a mind reader nor have any ability to see into the past so I cannot say for certain. I can only guess.

These days, they're very intentional. Because of the fact that the decimal only appears in-game on the GTN, they list items to appear (at a glance of course) to be the lowest unit price. The smart scammers flood the listing from alt accounts with pages of items that appear (at a glance) to be slightly higher.

[Jadescythe]

Yes. That's exactly why.

 

It's not illegal to advertise gas for 30.5 at your gas station. If someone drives up and buys it for $30 a gallon thinking it was $3 then that was their error.

[Infernixx]

It's not illegal to advertise gas for 30.5 at your gas station. If someone drives up and buys it for $30 a gallon thinking it was $3 then that was their error.

 

Indeed. It's shady and unethical, but not illegal.

[TUXs]

It's not illegal to advertise gas for 30.5 at your gas station. If someone drives up and buys it for $30 a gallon thinking it was $3 then that was their error.

Oh bull lol. They'd be liable. I'd cancel my transaction and drive off happy as a lark because there are laws to prevent me from getting screwed by people like that. When my local gas station list the price per gallon at 296 per gallon on their sign, I know it's $2.96 per gallon, they simply don't show decimals. When McDonalds doesn't have the decimal on their dollar plus menu, do you assume your McChicken is $119 or $1.19? IRL, people are held accountable.

[Jadescythe]

Oh bull lol. They'd be liable. I'd cancel my transaction and drive off happy as a lark because there are laws to prevent me from getting screwed by people like that. When my local gas station list the price per gallon at 296 per gallon on their sign, I know it's $2.96 per gallon, they simply don't show decimals. When McDonalds doesn't have the decimal on their dollar plus menu, do you assume your McChicken is $119 or $1.19? IRL, people are held accountable.

 

You would have no recourse based on law unless they specifically listed the price incorrectly. If I put the decimal in the right place, then it's entirely on the consumer to be able to read the price. On those gas station signs, there is a decimal point on the sign after the first number. If it was listed after the second one and you bought it for 10 times as much then you would have no legal action to take as the price was clearly listed.

[TUXs]

You would have no recourse based on law unless they specifically listed the price incorrectly. If I put the decimal in the right place, then it's entirely on the consumer to be able to read the price. On those gas station signs, there is a decimal point on the sign after the first number. If it was listed after the second one and you bought it for 10 times as much then you would have no legal action to take as the price was clearly listed.

I'd dispute the charge if I felt scammed.

[iacon]

After a gazillion posts on this subject, there are two things that are the primary contributors to the issue at hand.

 

1) There are scruples challenged people that post things on the GTN in the hopes people will not pay attention and pay way more for something than they should.

 

2) People, whether in a rush or misread or whatever the reason, pay the exorbitant amount of credits for the items.

 

I do not think there is anyone in disagreement of these two basic facts. The discrepancy comes in how to deal with the situation that arises from 1 and 2.

 

There are some that say it is all on the seller for being scammers and they need to be tarred and feathered, burned at the stake, and run out of town on a rail. Yes, hyperbole is intended for anyone questioning.

 

There are some that say it is all on the buyer for not paying attention to the transaction before finalizing. Suck it up and move on.

 

For all practical purposes, the first option is akin to banging your head against a concrete wall when you want to remodel your house. A lot of pain and anguish with very little to show for a positive result. Bioware is most likely not going to make any changes to the workings of the GTN because for the most part is working as it should.

 

The fact of the matter is both sides share in the culpability. The seller should not be trying to trick people and the buyer should be careful when doing transactions. The person that made the mistake can submit a CS ticket and try to recover the credits, but beyond that there is little else they can do. Learn from the mistake and keep playing the game. Other people can learn from the experience as well and not do the same thing.

[TUXs]

Bioware is most likely not going to make any changes to the workings of the GTN because for the most part is working as it should.

The simplest and easiest change they could make is to remove decimals. That's all they need to do to eliminate the majority (not all) of these types of mistakes. Decimals ONLY exist on the GTN unit price...no place else in game. Bioware should eliminate them. That's all.

[iacon]

The simplest and easiest change they could make is to remove decimals. That's all they need to do to eliminate the majority (not all) of these types of mistakes. Decimals ONLY exist on the GTN unit price...no place else in game. Bioware should eliminate them. That's all.

 

Simple does not equate to easy and vice versa. It is a simple solution to eliminate that column from the display. Is it easy for them to do? Who knows?

 

As far as where this issue falls on Bioware's priority list is only something they know, but I am going to take a wild guess and say it is not extremely high. This brings me back to my smacking-a-cement-wall-with-your-head analogy.

 

Until such time that the column disappears from the view, a person can either ignore the column or be very careful reading it.

Edited July 1, 2015 by iacon

[TUXs]

Simple does not equate to easy and vice versa. It is a simple solution to eliminate that column from the display. Is it being easy for them to do? Who knows?

 

As far as where this issue falls on Bioware's priority list is only something they know, but I am going to take a wild guess and say it is not extremely high. This brings me back to my smacking-a-cement-wall-with-your-head analogy.

 

Until such time that the column disappears from the view, a person can either ignore the column or be very careful reading it.

Remember at launch when we couldn't have more than 2 windows open at a time? Were the people asking for more banging their head on a wall? What about people asking for free roam space combat? We got GSF outta that. Or the people asking for housing? Were they wasting their time too?

 

It never hurts to ask and being persistent pays off.

[Papazmurf]

Food for Thought: What about when you buy an item for 5 credits cuz the seller was inattentive? You just scammed the seller but that's ok as long as it benefits the buyer, right?

 

You know I hadn't though of it that way and I'm surprised no one else has responded to this. I think the major difference is in that scenario, there is no shadiness, trickery, or whatever word you want to us going on by the buyer to get the seller to list for a low price.

 

That said, perhaps buyers that find these "deals" should send the item back to the seller to let them know what it is really worth. Interesting insight.

[iacon]

Remember at launch when we couldn't have more than 2 windows open at a time? Were the people asking for more banging their head on a wall? What about people asking for free roam space combat? We got GSF outta that. Or the people asking for housing? Were they wasting their time too?

 

It never hurts to ask and being persistent pays off.

 

No, it does not hurt to ask, but at the same time the aforementioned unknown priority factor must be taken into account. Not all suggestions and requests are equal. Some might be placed in their list of things they are going to do, either now or in the near future, or the suggestion might already be in the list. Others may be on the list yo be done farther down the line. Others might be in the "yeah, this would be nice but no way in hell we are going to get to it" category.

 

The non-fixed windows were a part of the UI overhaul and not something done specifically because of a couple of vocal people on the forums. The same thing with GSF. It was not because of the vocal few on the forums that it was created. It was already something they were planning.

 

And once again, until such time as the column is removed from the view. The two options to avoid making a transaction mistake are 1) ignore it and 2) be very careful when reading it. That is the reality. Saying "Bioware needs to change this" and "Bioware needs to fix that" ad nauseam and loudly does not alter that nor speed up changes and updates they will be making in the future if any.

 

Update: Or change the display to remove the fraction of a credit. There, addendum added for those that cannot extrapolate the point I am making beyond the single situation.

Edited July 1, 2015 by iacon

[bdatt]

In the real world we have agencies to protect against stupidity - in virtual worlds we don't.

 

I'm just curious about this. I assume consumer protection applies to commercial retailers. That would be equivalent to me buying off an in game vendor. Refunds are allowed in both cases with some restrictions.

 

The GTN is eBay. I've only bought a few things off eBay but I assumed it was always "buyer beware." If the seller voluntarily has a return policy great, it's unlikely though with a GTN transaction.

[TUXs]

The GTN is eBay. I've only bought a few things off eBay but I assumed it was always "buyer beware." If the seller voluntarily has a return policy great, it's unlikely though with a GTN transaction.

Even ebay has policies in place to protect people, like seller feedback. Yes it's buyer beware, but you can leave feedback and investigate the sellers prior transactions to make determinations about them. Here, if you leave feedback on the forum, you'll be banned.

[Banthabreeder]

OMG! I remember this post from ages ago. I also recognize Bioware's response to be the most insightful and helpful advice they ever gave. That advice which solves every problem in regards to the GTN?

 

TAKE YOUR TIME

 

Ah, I still love that quote and follow its meaning every time I'm scanning through the gtn. Pity others can't. That they won't take responsibility for themselves and feel it's always someone else fault and someone in charge needs to protect them from them self.

 

Ah, say it again...

 

TAKE YOUR TIME

[Sorwen]

Are the analogies 100% on point? No...but, while you did not quote them please show me where this, or similar, incidents meet the definitions I provided for what is a " scam" meaning something that is actionable.

Gave you one, eBay. Though you really need to define what you think the words scam, shady, and actionable are as you don't seem to be using them right.

 

Shady does not and never has meant that it is actionable.

Says who? Bait and switch, Lemon laws, etc there are a lot of examples where shady does mean actionable. None of your examples were examples of shady or scams. They actually have nothing to do with what is talked about because those were not instances of someone trying to trick someone into anything. That is why I said it was apple and oranges. I guess that might might not have been clear enough.

 

Simply because you or I may find it morally distasteful does not make it actionable. I think Rent-a-centers in poor areas are shady, hell I think they are predatory. They put up these adds that say "only $49.99 a month" for something, a sucker who doesn't know better walks in and signs the paper and has spent enough money to own the dang thing 6 months later bit Rent-a-Center still owns it. That isn't a scam.

No, it isn't but then it isn't analogous to what is going on. Now if they put up a sign that said "only $49,99" to try and try to throw people off then it would be a scam then. And if a car dealer in the US tried to sell a car in the paper for "39.460.00" they've messed themselves over because that person just got that car for thirty-nine dollars and forty-six cents. Because our society has laws that acknowledge some people will try to steal by any means necessary and there needs to be laws to prevent such theft from being legal by default.

 

I get it...we all want our games to be these little islands that are isolated from this kinda rl stuff. We want it to be all kumbia sitting around and holding hands. MMORPGs however are really just digital communities that have all the stuff, both good and bad, of rl. Some of that is actionable some not...this, as distasteful as it is, is NOT actionable. There was no active deception, no actions taken to conceal etc. What made this possible was a player not paying attention. This is not me saying "the player is an idiot.". I have paid more than I should have on more than one occasion myself. White aggro? Too much beer? In a rush? All of the above? It happens. In the end it was MY fault for not paying attention when I was on the GTN

Obviously you don't get it. A game has to go above because it doesn't have the checks and balances of real life. Again how is it not actionable? You keep saying that, but avoid any actual proof on how it isn't actionable. And whether it is actionable isn't even the point. Even if it isn't actionable that doesn't mean BioWare should just ignore something that would make it impossible when it should have been in the first place.

 

Simple does not equate to easy and vice versa. It is a simple solution to eliminate that column from the display. Is it easy for them to do? Who knows?

 

As far as where this issue falls on Bioware's priority list is only something they know, but I am going to take a wild guess and say it is not extremely high. This brings me back to my smacking-a-cement-wall-with-your-head analogy.

 

Until such time that the column disappears from the view, a person can either ignore the column or be very careful reading it.

I'm not sure where you are getting they have to remove a column to get rid of a period. It isn't a ledger that a column has to be removed from the display. You can't pay fractions of a credit so there is no need to show fractions of a credit. Edited July 1, 2015 by Sorwen

[Ghisallo]

Just cuz people don't agree with you doesn't mean they are "not very nice". Sure, there might be a few, but mostly people are trying to say is to be careful with your purchases, especially if what you're buying costs a lot of credits for you personally.

 

I don't have a fortune to say "3 million credits is nothing" and I don't think you should be made to feel stupid cuz you made a mistake, but that's all it was, a mistake, I've made hundreds of them in 3.5 years playing this and it's all about learning from them. Heck, I've even made the same mistake MORE than once, at that point it's just funny, but move on and don't stress over stuff.

 

What item did you want? I'll see if I have it somewhere and I'll just give it to you (if you're on Harbinger).

 

Society, both real-life and virtual, MUST STOP trying to protect everyone from themselves and PEOPLE need to just start taking their OWN responsibility. Otherwise, let's just be WALL-E people now and get it over with.

 

Food for Thought: What about when you buy an item for 5 credits cuz the seller was inattentive? You just scammed the seller but that's ok as long as it benefits the buyer, right?

 

That last part is important. More than once I have sold something for say 35k when I meant 350k. That's passed off as my mistake. The same logic should apply to the buyer as well but nope...the market player is seen as the 1%er of the MMORPG world. Whether they are right or wrong they are wrong in a Capitalist system, whether it is RL or virtual. The hypocrisy is actually kinda disgusting.

 

And before people say it isn't... if you saw that Tythonian Light saber on sale for 180k, when the next cheapest is 1.9 million, do you buy it and then send a million credits to the seller via the mail, or do you cheer that you got it so cheap? If you cheered but say the buyer owes no responsibility in the situation we have here.... Yeah.

[khsolo]

I lost 9 mill to this mistake as well and know full well its intended and people fall for it even if they fully aware and are cautious with the system

 

Prices in the GTN and not unmistakable and easilly recognizable sometimes and some use a "price lead" change to make the buyer believe they are paying a price which sounds reasonable when they are not

 

Lets be clear with something its total bs and the system is flawed and people do it with the intention of getting money out of unsuspecting others, if you argue otherwise either you benefit from it or are plain stupid

 

So to conclude:

 

1. The system could be improved to "fix" the "price lead", im pretty sure it could be easilly by just changing how the numbers are formated, why BW has not done so? its totally beyond me

 

2. BW has ignored this issue hoping maybe it would go away, imo is bad business and extremelly bad customer service as this thread and many others have proved over time

 

3. People do it with the intention to scam others, sure they do it, pls dont tell me if the system had rightly formatted numbers you would actually sell that lvl 3 green stuff for 4 mil, or better still try to do so with a rightly formated number and see how many people actually do buy it

 

4. You cannot do anything about it and just have to carry on

 

5. Coming here will help as it will continue to raise awareness of the issue

 

6. I recommend be more cautious next time

[iacon]

I'm not sure where you are getting they have to remove a column to get rid of a period. It isn't a ledger that a column has to be removed from the display. You can't pay fractions of a credit so there is no need to show fractions of a credit.

 

Regardless if the column is removed or changed to only show whole amounts, both are the same with regards to options and resolutions.

 

1) Simple solution which may or may have an easy implementation.

2) Very probable it is not high on Bioware's priority list.

 

Which means do one of the following:

1) Ignore value

2) Be careful when reading value.

3) Continue yelling at Bioware to fix things

[Ghisallo]

I lost 9 mill to this mistake as well and know full well its intended and people fall for it even if they fully aware and are cautious with the system

 

Prices in the GTN and not unmistakable and easilly recognizable sometimes and some use a "price lead" change to make the buyer believe they are paying a price which sounds reasonable when they are not

 

Lets be clear with something its total bs and the system is flawed and people do it with the intention of getting money out of unsuspecting others, if you argue otherwise either you benefit from it or are plain stupid

 

So to conclude:

 

1. The system could be improved to "fix" the "price lead", im pretty sure it could be easilly by just changing how the numbers are formated, why BW has not done so? its totally beyond me

 

2. BW has ignored this issue hoping maybe it would go away, imo is bad business and extremelly bad customer service as this thread and many others have proved over time

 

3. People do it with the intention to scam others, sure they do it, pls dont tell me if the system had rightly formatted numbers you would actually sell that lvl 3 green stuff for 4 mil, or better still try to do so with a rightly formated number and see how many people actually do buy it

 

4. You cannot do anything about it and just have to carry on

 

5. Coming here will help as it will continue to raise awareness of the issue

 

6. I recommend be more cautious next time

 

How are they not unmistakable? Search for item....click sort by price so the lowest price is the one you see. Follow said action with basic literacy and basic math skills. It is unmistakable if you take those three simple steps.

[Bachannal]

So much butthurt in this thread, it's amazing! So amazing that I think the GTN is gonna get some questionably priced items very soon in the hopes that unwitting people make the same mistake. If you can't be bothered to slow down long enough to properly sort by price on the GTN, then I can't be bothered to list things for a reasonable costs just so you don't "accidentally" spend your hard earned creds. Around my way, we call that "@sshole tax".