The Scam/Not a Scam debate storyline

[Infernixx]

Three million is an absolute fortune for me. I don't do dailies. I craft and level my girls. That's my fun, well it was my fun.

 

For someone who treats 3 mil like it's a lot, you sure didn't pay much attention, or close attention, to your GTN purchases.

[TUXs]

Three million is an absolute fortune for me. I don't do dailies. I craft and level my girls. That's my fun, well it was my fun.

 

Ignore the troll that is being rude.

 

I feel badly for you. I suggest you submit a ticket to Bioware and ask for help...3mil may seem like a lot, but if you focused on getting back to where you were, it's not as difficult as you may think. Daily missions can be very lucrative.

[HelinCarnate]

Ignore the troll that is being rude.

 

I feel badly for you. I suggest you submit a ticket to Bioware and ask for help...3mil may seem like a lot, but if you focused on getting back to where you were, it's not as difficult as you may think. Daily missions can be very lucrative.

 

Wont do any good. He purchased something for the listed price. Sending a ticket would just be wasting his time and theirs. But hey, thanks silver, for the necro. Good to know this still works on people.

Edited July 1, 2015 by HelinCarnate

[Infernixx]

Ignore the troll that is being rude.

 

I feel badly for you. I suggest you submit a ticket to Bioware and ask for help...3mil may seem like a lot, but if you focused on getting back to where you were, it's not as difficult as you may think. Daily missions can be very lucrative.

 

I resemble that remark.

 

And I'm sorry if I don't have much sympathy for someone who says that 3mil is a lot, but is careless with his GTN purchases.

 

I mean, they have a pop-up window that asks you to confirm what you're buying and what you're paying for it. It's not BW's fault if he doesn't bother to check that window before clicking Yes.

 

To be perfectly up front, I lost 4mil myself with such a thing that got him and since then I've been 'very' careful with what I buy off the GTN.

[TUXs]

I resemble that remark.

 

And I'm sorry if I don't have much sympathy for someone who says that 3mil is a lot, but is careless with his GTN purchases.

 

I mean, they have a pop-up window that asks you to confirm what you're buying and what you're paying for it. It's not BW's fault if he doesn't bother to check that window before clicking Yes.

 

To be perfectly up front, I lost 4mil myself with such a thing that got him and since then I've been 'very' careful with what I buy off the GTN.

2 wrongs don't make a right...but three lefts do...

 

Just because you learned your lesson the same way, doesn't mean it's ok. The GTN is an issue that Bioware is ignoring for whatever freaking reason - there is NO REASON it should list fractional currency - NONE! They'd rather someone like the lady above leave the game over the frustration she just experienced, than to ban the kid who cheated her...of course the kid who cheated her is probably already banned for using the chair exploit, so...

 

I understand people need to be more careful...but that doesn't mean she wasn't ****ed over.

[Infernixx]

2 wrongs don't make a right...but three lefts do...

 

Just because you learned your lesson the same way, doesn't mean it's ok. The GTN is an issue that Bioware is ignoring for whatever freaking reason - there is NO REASON it should list fractional currency - NONE! They'd rather someone like the lady above leave the game over the frustration she just experienced, than to ban the kid who cheated her...of course the kid who cheated her is probably already banned for using the chair exploit, so...

 

I understand people need to be more careful...but that doesn't mean she wasn't ****ed over.

 

If she was screwed over, she was screwed over by her own inattention and her own greed.

 

She saw something that she 'thought' was drastically under the floor price for that item and in her rush to snatch it up before someone else got it, she failed to pay close enough attention to the price tag.

 

She thought she had found a great bargain and rushed to buy without looking closely and 'that is exactly what the seller was counting on.'

 

So, she basically screwed herself.

[TUXs]

If she was screwed over, she was screwed over by her own inattention and her own greed.

 

She saw something that she 'thought' was drastically under the floor price for that item and in her rush to snatch it up before someone else got it, she failed to pay close enough attention to the price tag.

 

She thought she had found a great bargain and rushed to buy without looking closely and 'that is exactly what the seller was counting on.'

 

So, she basically screwed herself.

You just defined exactly how a scam works. Thank you. IRL we have authorities that protect us from scammers. Online, Bioware needs to be that authority.

[Infernixx]

You just defined exactly how a scam works. Thank you. IRL we have authorities that protect us from scammers. Online, Bioware needs to be that authority.

 

It'd be a lot simpler if people took a bit of time and personal responsibility for their own actions. Especially since BW already makes us confirm the purchase with a pop up window.

 

Less greed and more attention paid would do a lot more good than asking BW to code in a second pop up window identical to the first.

[Thoronmir]

And I'm sorry if I don't have much sympathy for someone who says that 3mil is a lot, but is careless with his GTN purchases.

I want to sympathize with the player who lost 3 million credits, but I keep bumping against the point Infernixx made. If it's a lot (and 3 million is definitely a lot of credits to me), I would expect a player to check and double-check each step of the purchase. Especially since such selling tactics are hardly new or unknown in SWTOR.

 

But I think the issue that Infernixx (and I) overlook is that, in this type of transaction, the buyer isn't aware that his 3 million credits are at risk. The alleged shenanigans with unit prices create the illusion that a far lesser sum is at stake, which could have a chilling effect on the buyer's scrutiny of the deal. So, on that basis, I'm at least not criticizing the buyer for not having his "Scam Radar" dialed up to 11.

 

When I pay $150,000 cash for a piece of property, you can bet I'm reading ... and re-reading ... every darn line of every page of the transaction ... and triple-checking the math. When I pay $150 for a box of cigars, I just hand them my credit card and don't bother to check the receipt. When I learn that the cigar store rooked me through "creative" unit pricing of the cigars and that box actually cost me $150,000? Sure, I could have been more careful, but I don't expect everyone to enter each and every sales transaction at DEFCON 1. Unfortunately, the Consumer Protection Act doesn't apply to GTN sales.

[Theeko]

You just defined exactly how a scam works. Thank you. IRL we have authorities that protect us from scammers. Online, Bioware needs to be that authority.

 

But yet again the GTN is fair game

[Infernixx]

I want to sympathize with the player who lost 3 million credits, but I keep bumping against the point Infernixx made. If it's a lot (and 3 million is definitely a lot of credits to me), I would expect a player to check and double-check each step of the purchase. Especially since such selling tactics are hardly new or unknown in SWTOR.

 

But I think the issue that Infernixx (and I) overlook is that, in this type of transaction, the buyer isn't aware that his 3 million credits are at risk. The alleged shenanigans with unit prices create the illusion that a far lesser sum is at stake, which could have a chilling effect on the buyer's scrutiny of the deal. So, on that basis, I'm at least not criticizing the buyer for not having his "Scam Radar" dialed up to 11.

 

When I pay $150,000 cash for a piece of property, you can bet I'm reading ... and re-reading ... every darn line of every page of the transaction ... and triple-checking the math. When I pay $150 for a box of cigars, I just hand them my credit card and don't bother to check the receipt. When I learn that the cigar store rooked me through "creative" unit pricing of the cigars and that box actually cost me $150,000? Sure, I could have been more careful, but I don't expect everyone to enter each and every sales transaction at DEFCON 1. Unfortunately, the Consumer Protection Act doesn't apply to GTN sales.

 

And therein lies the problem. Let's say you found something on sale at walmart. A box of cigars normally goes for 50 bucks and it's listed at $3.00. Someone somewhere made a mistake! Well, you go up to one of those self-serve registers and ring it up and it rings up at $300 instead. Turns out, that thing you thought was a decimal point was a smudge of magic marker. It's right there on the screen. Easily seen. But, you're in a hurry and you're not paying attention and boom. You're out $300 for a $50 box of cigars that you thought was $3.

 

A little attention and a little extra time would have prevented the problem in the first place. Granted, it's not a perfect analogy and it's not meant to be perfect. It's meant to show you how a bit of attention and care will keep you from being taken for a ride.

[Thoronmir]

And therein lies the problem. Let's say you found something on sale at walmart. A box of cigars normally goes for 50 bucks and it's listed at $3.00. Someone somewhere made a mistake! Well, you go up to one of those self-serve registers and ring it up and it rings up at $300 instead. Turns out, that thing you thought was a decimal point was a smudge of magic marker. It's right there on the screen. Easily seen. But, you're in a hurry and you're not paying attention and boom. You're out $300 for a $50 box of cigars that you thought was $3.

 

A little attention and a little extra time would have prevented the problem in the first place. Granted, it's not a perfect analogy and it's not meant to be perfect. It's meant to show you how a bit of attention and care will keep you from being taken for a ride.

First, I would never buy cigars at Wal-Mart!

 

Second, yeah. I'm not giving the buyer a pass for his inattentiveness. My point was in response to those who seemed to assume that the buyer knew he was risking 3 million credits. Like I said, the context of the transaction determines how I judge a buyer's "threat level". I agree that primary fault falls on the buyers in these situations because they are empowered to avoid the loss entirely.

[Stoofa]

In the real world we have agencies to protect against stupidity - in virtual worlds we don't.

[DOHboy]

You just defined exactly how a scam works. Thank you. IRL we have authorities that protect us from scammers. Online, Bioware needs to be that authority.

 

no authority has ever protected me from getting scammed. Usually the scam themselves are not illegal, what is illegal is the misrepresentation and and NOT delivering what is promised.

 

buy item for 10x for what its worth, your fault.

buy item and get something else, their fault.

[Jadescythe]

I avoid any confusion by flipping the sort list multiple times anytime I buy something. So if I sort by unit price, I would sort high to low, then low to high to make sure the prices are ordered correctly then back to high to low and back again. Sometimes the GTN misorders stuff, so I prefer to make sure I'm actually buying the cheapest one. Then I check the total price to make sure I'm not buying more than I need. It takes 10 seconds max to ensure I'm getting what I want at the price I want.

[DOHboy]

In the real world we have natural selection to protect against stupidity - in virtual worlds we don't.

 

fixed it for you

[Silvercell]

2 wrongs don't make a right...but three lefts do...

 

Just because you learned your lesson the same way, doesn't mean it's ok. The GTN is an issue that Bioware is ignoring for whatever freaking reason - there is NO REASON it should list fractional currency - NONE! They'd rather someone like the lady above leave the game over the frustration she just experienced, than to ban the kid who cheated her...of course the kid who cheated her is probably already banned for using the chair exploit, so...

 

I understand people need to be more careful...but that doesn't mean she wasn't ****ed over.

 

Thank you Tux, I appreciate your support. Some people are not very nice here.

[Ghisallo]

You just defined exactly how a scam works. Thank you. IRL we have authorities that protect us from scammers. Online, Bioware needs to be that authority.

 

There is a difference between an outright fraud and "buyer beware." Your interpretation is more a kin to the following

 

---business displays an item for sale with a sticker value of $10.00. They intentionally ring up the sale for $20.00 (or whatever) with the hope that the purchaser does not notice.

 

This is not the case here. Here the price is there for all to see. Simply because someone doesn't check is not the buyers fault. Is it a scam if a purchaser on eBay clicks on the first "buy it now" they come across, when on the next page there is a cheaper option? Is it a scam if the first car dealer you go to, and buy from, charged you 3 grand more or gave you less for your trade in than the dealer of the same cars 10 miles away?

 

No. For it to be a scam there has to be an action of some sort. Whether it be an action, the intent of which, a bait and switch, knowingly creating a false impression as to value, knowingly reinforcing a false impression that the consumer somehow came about on their own, preventing said consumer from obtaining proper information etc.

 

None of these happen on the GTN. People post items for a price. Due to the nature of the GTN there is no way for them to perform the above acts. In the end this is a matter of the old axiom "buyer beware."

 

Do I think this is shady? Yeah, but most of the dynamics of a market economy are shady. Shady however does not = scam/actionable behavior.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Sorwen]

This is not the case here. Here the price is there for all to see. Simply because someone doesn't check is not the buyers fault. Is it a scam if a purchaser on eBay clicks on the first "buy it now" they come across, when on the next page there is a cheaper option? Is it a scam if the first car dealer you go to, and buy from, charged you 3 grand more or gave you less for your trade in than the dealer of the same cars 10 miles away?

Apples and oranges since the examples you're trying to give are not the same thing as what is happening. And while buying something for more isn't against eBay's rules trying to scam someone into doing so is.

 

For instance after the many selling boxes fiasco eBay did make rules on that. For the most part it is against the rules now to sell empty boxes on eBay. While some sales are allowed(you can't for Apple products and game consoles since such sales are removed when reported or found) because there can be valid situations, however even at that if they are not 100% clear on what the sale is then it is at least covered under eBay's "Money Back Guarantee". Shouldn't use eBay for your example since eBay goes out of its way to try and prevent scams. BioWare removing a decimal when there are not even fractions of credits in game is the least they could do.

 

Do I think this is shady? Yeah, but most of the dynamics of a market economy are shady. Shady however does not = scam/actionable behavior.

Actually as you are using shady that is exactly what it means. What is happening is a scam. Trying to use some other descriptor to make it sound less so doesn't change that. Edited July 1, 2015 by Sorwen

[TUXs]

But yet again the GTN is fair game

Meaning what? That you defend the practice of scamming others? Is that what I should understand your statement to mean?

[TUXs]

Do I think this is shady? Yeah, but most of the dynamics of a market economy are shady. Shady however does not = scam/actionable behavior.

Why? Would you rather have Bioware protect the guilty? Is that what you enjoy? You'd rather play with people who are out to **** over others than to play with decent players who abide by the rules? And who are you to say it's not "actionable"? Unless you work for Bioware, I don't believe you have the authority to make that claim.

[Jadescythe]

Why? Would you rather have Bioware protect the guilty? Is that what you enjoy? You'd rather play with people who are out to **** over others than to play with decent players who abide by the rules? And who are you to say it's not "actionable"? Unless you work for Bioware, I don't believe you have the authority to make that claim.

 

Read the only BW post in this thread and you'll see they noted they can't determine if you are intentionally scamming or simply listing something for a high price. They advise paying close attention to what you are purchasing.

[Infernixx]

Why? Would you rather have Bioware protect the guilty? Is that what you enjoy? You'd rather play with people who are out to **** over others than to play with decent players who abide by the rules? And who are you to say it's not "actionable"? Unless you work for Bioware, I don't believe you have the authority to make that claim.

 

What exactly are they guilty of? Listing things at obscenely high prices in the hopes of someone absentmindedly mistaking their high price for a bargain price, thanks to decimal placement and an inattentive eye?

 

If people paid attention to what they're doing, none of this would be a concern.

[Ghisallo]

Apples and oranges since the examples you're trying to give are not the same thing as what is happening. And while buying something for more isn't against eBay's rules trying to scam someone into doing so is.

 

For instance after the many selling boxes fiasco eBay did make rules on that. For the most part it is against the rules now to sell empty boxes on eBay. While some sales are allowed(you can't for Apple products and game consoles since such sales are removed when reported or found) because there can be valid situations, however even at that if they are not 100% clear on what the sale is then it is at least covered under eBay's "Money Back Guarantee". Shouldn't use eBay for your example since eBay goes out of its way to try and prevent scams. BioWare removing a decimal when there are not even fractions of credits in game is the least they could do.

 

Actually as you are using shady that is exactly what it means. What is happening is a scam. Trying to use some other descriptor to make it sound less so doesn't change that.

 

Are the analogies 100% on point? No...but, while you did not quote them please show me where this, or similar, incidents meet the definitions I provided for what is a " scam" meaning something that is actionable. Shady does not and never has meant that it is actionable. Simply because you or I may find it morally distasteful does not make it actionable. I think Rent-a-centers in poor areas are shady, hell I think they are predatory. They put up these adds that say "only $49.99 a month" for something, a sucker who doesn't know better walks in and signs the paper and has spent enough money to own the dang thing 6 months later bit Rent-a-Center still owns it. That isn't a scam.

 

I get it...we all want our games to be these little islands that are isolated from this kinda rl stuff. We want it to be all kumbia sitting around and holding hands. MMORPGs however are really just digital communities that have all the stuff, both good and bad, of rl. Some of that is actionable some not...this, as distasteful as it is, is NOT actionable. There was no active deception, no actions taken to conceal etc. What made this possible was a player not paying attention. This is not me saying "the player is an idiot.". I have paid more than I should have on more than one occasion myself. White aggro? Too much beer? In a rush? All of the above? It happens. In the end it was MY fault for not paying attention when I was on the GTN

Edited July 1, 2015 by Ghisallo

[tmwfte]

When I pay $150 for a box of cigars, I just hand them my credit card and don't bother to check the receipt. When I learn that the cigar store rooked me through "creative" unit pricing of the cigars and that box actually cost me $150,000?

 

I would be impressed with your credit score that a lending institution gave you a limit of $150k+.