The Scam/Not a Scam debate storyline

[_NovaBlast_]

Your entitled to your opinion, but your going a bit overboard with the inflated outrage.

 

I think we will go ahead and continue judging the suggestions on their merits and ignore your judgements and advice however.

 

Thanks for participating. Back to the discussion in progress.

 

On a side note, neither buyers NOR SELLERS are wililng to take responsibility for their actions, so arguing the point back and forth couldn't possibly be less contructive, unless of course your keyboard keys flew off as a result.

 

Or melted.

 

At any rate, I think people need to avoid the temptation to engage in hyperbole and stick to discussing the suggestions instead.

 

Thanks to everyone that is remaining faithfully on that point.

 

 

You know your continual " lets just solve this problem and just talk about solutions " is exactly the same as the who is to blame statements right ?

 

you want my input.. Fine i disagree with any qol suggestion regarding the gtn.

 

I have played through 5 times now and have always found it an efficient ...yet completely over priced in every way possible most ofthe time .....but efficient system system and i don't feel that any changes are necessary due to not ever having an issues even once over my 5x times going through this game.

 

The only people who would benefit from such suggestion are the ones who are careless and a qol suggestion to simply stop someone from being carless is a waste of devs time.

Edited November 12, 2014 by _NovaBlast_

[LordArtemis]

You know your continual " lets just solve this problem and just talk about solutions " is exactly the same as the who is to blame statements right ?

 

No, I am not sure what you mean.

 

If your claiming my comments are not constructive I would disagree. But I would concede that pointing out the fact that many of the buyers and sellers in this thread refuse to take responsibility for themselves is probably not constructive.

[_NovaBlast_]

No, I am not sure what you mean.

 

If your claiming my comments are not constructive I would disagree. But I would concede that pointing out the fact that many of the buyers and sellers in this thread refuse to take responsibility for themselves is probably not constructive.

 

 

I added more to that post hopefully it leads to better understanding regarding why i think it sounds the same .

 

I take this as purely a 100% buyers responsibility issue .

 

Not becase i support what the sellers are doing but becase if the buyer take care and responsibly and attention to detail the sellers won't have any power .

 

There is no way with the tools available you can make a mispurchase if you follow Eric's advice.

 

Hey folks,

 

When purchasing items on the GTN, aside from the initial sorting and purchase we also have a secondary window pop-up as confirmation of sale. If you feel you are at risk of buying something off of the GTN at an intended value, take your time! Make sure to read over exactly what they are selling it for and then double check that number when you receive the pop-up. Also, we highly recommend using the sorting functions for both total and unit prices to make sure you are paying what you want.

 

-eric

Edited November 12, 2014 by _NovaBlast_

[LordArtemis]

I added more to that post hopefully it leads to better understanding .

 

I think the bold is where we hit an impasse.

 

I take this as purely a 100% buyers responsibility issue .

 

Not becase i support what the sellers are doing but becase if the buyer take care and responsibly and attention to detail the sellers won't have any power .

 

There is no way with the tools available you can make a mispurchase if you follow Eric's advice.

 

Ah, of course.

 

Well I take issue in the sellers that either hide behind arguing or berating buyers to prevent changes, because they wish to keep their "protections" in place, or those that will not own up the to the FACT that putting items up for sale using funky numbers to try and trick someone IS underhanded behavior no matter how you slice it.

 

Hence, a lack of responsibility on both sides.

 

So this is NOT a 100 percent buyers issue. This is a buyers and sellers issue. Buyers that want to be protected from themselves, and sellers that want to protect dishonorable sales practices.

 

Both are foolish and useless efforts. Changes can and likely will occur, despite the noise from either side.

 

I am also not sure why you would post Erics comment snippet in a response to me.

 

First of all, your interpretation of his words is not entirely accurate. You are twisting some of it to mean what you want it to mean, as most have.

 

Second, if anyone is painfully familiar with what he said, it would be me. I was the second post in his thread.

 

Please don't do that again. Not to me anyway Nova. There is no reason to do so.

 

By the way Nova....this....

The only people who would benefit from such suggestion are the ones who are careless and a qol suggestion to simply stop someone from being carless is a waste of devs time.

 

...is one of the silliest things I have heard in a while. Not only is it obvious that most of the suggestions would benefit everyone, you of all people know there is NOTHING that can be done to protect buyers.

The contention that the suggestions are not QoL improvements and only help buyers or those seeking protection is ludicrous and self serving IMO.

 

So, you can certainly choose to continue to engage in silly hyperbole if you choose., I will continue to try and move forward.

Edited November 12, 2014 by LordArtemis

[LyraineAlei]

It's not a question of what's convenient for perfect shoppers, it's a question of what's going to boost buyer protection levels for all buyers.

 

Have you tried counting out 5 seconds and imagining waiting to finalize your purchase? You don't end up completely steamed, but you get bored enough that you realize you might as well double-check the price that's displayed right in front of you. I think this alone is the most effective portion of my suggestion.

 

Five seconds is long enough to make me go "Eff this." [Cancel] [x] [n] and select the crew skill myself.

 

Yes, we could sit and look at the price again, but more honestly, it'll be just as ignored as the current pop up.

 

Yes, we could sit and reread the price again, but those who use the tools available right now, it is redundant, and not worth checking the price again for the third, fourth, or seventh time.

 

In the protection, you also have to balance it with convenience. Shopping is convenient. We could go and grow our own food, kill or harvest it, cook it. Survive without shopping. But it is inconvenient to today's world.

[LordArtemis]

I would not support a purchase confirmation pause. I do not think that would be an improvement that would helpful or welcome to the playerbase.

 

Instead, I think the list presented has the most sensible QoL improvements so far.

 

Buyers and sellers will not get any protection from any changes made to the GTN. This is a fantasy. The only way to be protected is to not participate in the GTN.

Edited November 12, 2014 by LordArtemis

[_NovaBlast_]

 

First of all, your interpretation of his words is not entirely accurate. You are twisting some of it to mean what you want it to mean, as most have.

 

I have a fundamental disagreement with most of your post and it appears that there is no benefit in continuing the discussion with such fundamental difference of views.

 

I would like to know how i am twisting anything when all i did was bold and color a solution that will prevent anyone from ever having issues with the gtn.

[anonnn]

No i disagree its not what it means . what it means is they need to take Eric's and everyone that agrees with him advice and stop the careless behavior that you yourself have mentioned.

 

Its not about protecting people from themselves either if you take care and attention there is absolutely no way to get scammed on gtn ..

 

You're still hung up on looking for a way to blame someone. Meanwhile, just by pure statistical eventuality, more people are going to end up losing a painfully large amount of credits trying to make purchases on the GTN.

 

It's like someone's at a party, they find the assorted sandwich platter, grab a yummy-looking one and take a huge bite of it. But little did they know, that sandwich had a HUGE amount of horseradish sauce on it. Now their party experience is a complete disaster : horseradish sauce is disgusting and painful in large quantities. There you are telling them "you're such an idiot, it's all your own fault because there's a sandwich legend on the table right there that would've told you which sandwich is which!". . . And there I am saying "you know, it'd be perhaps a good idea to warn people about the horseradish sandwiches by putting them on a separate platter on the side, with a clear note that says 'horseradish' ".

 

Which one of us is being reasonable, and which one of us cares about party-goers?

.

[LordArtemis]

I have a fundamental disagreement with most of your post and it appears that there is no benefit in continuing the discussion with such fundamental difference of views.

 

I would like to know how i am twisting anything when all i did was bold and color a solution that will prevent anyone from ever having issues with the gtn.

 

Your comments speaking to Erics intent is what I am referring to Nova. Only EM knows his intent, and it MOST LIKELY his intent was NOT to take sides or stand as evidence for EITHER side of the argument.

 

His words are self evident.

 

By the way, the entirety of his statement does not mitigate MY ISSUES with the GTN. In fact, i would speculate that his comments do not mitigate MOST players issues with the GTN....since it is most likely most players only have QoL issues with the GTN.

 

Like the desire to have a more orderly price display. Or the ability to rate sellers. Post sales by price per item instead of buyout price. Those kind of things.

 

I would agree that you and I do not see eye to eye on this issue and probably will not ever agree. So we should simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

I will now move on to moving forward if you dont mind.

Edited November 12, 2014 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

You're still hung up on looking for a way to blame someone. Meanwhile, just by pure statistical eventuality, more people are going to end up losing a painfully large amount of credits trying to make purchases on the GTN.

 

It's like someone's at a party, they find the assorted sandwich platter, grab a yummy-looking one and take a huge bite of it. But little did they know, that sandwich had a HUGE amount of horseradish sauce on it. Now their party experience is a complete disaster : horseradish sauce is disgusting and painful in large quantities. There you are telling them "you're such an idiot, it's all your own fault because there's a sandwich legend on the table right there that would've told you which sandwich is which!". . . And there I am saying "you know, it'd be perhaps a good idea to warn people about the horseradish sandwiches by putting them on a separate platter on the side, with a clear note that says 'horseradish' ".

 

Which one of us is being reasonable, and which one of us cares about party-goers?

.

 

Annon, I don't think either of you is being reasonable.

Edited November 12, 2014 by LordArtemis

[mokkh]

OK people I just went and did some actual GTN searching and... this "debate" is really, really, ridiculous.

 

A screen of prices without decimal places, this is for items that are both stacked and not stacked. No decimal places, like people have suggested in this thread. Just so happens that the stacks are common multiples of each other.

 

A screen for items that are both not stacked and stacked. Huge difference between 10,000 and 101.01. Just gonna throw that out there. Moreover, this person is clearly not a "scammer", they just want 10k per stack of silica.

 

And a screen for the "scammers", note how ridiculous the amount is to the quantity, they are stacks of ONE. 18 aluminum for 55,555.56? Even if you were ignorant of the number system that would be dramatically more expensive than 1,000,000. Both figures have 7 digits after all.

 

The whole decimal place argument is lost because there are two clearly demarcated columns that separate price per unit and total price. QoL talk or not, anyone that is attempting to legitimize the argument that there aren't proper safeguards in place to protect people from their own inattentiveness is intentionally delusional.

 

Can there be auto sorting QoL improvements made? Sure.

Is there any way to safeguard against every type of error ever ever? No.

This topic needs to be flushed. Period.

[LordArtemis]

QoL talk or not, anyone that is attempting to legitimize the argument that there aren't proper safeguards in place to protect people from their own inattentiveness is intentionally delusional.

 

I generally agree.

 

Can there be auto sorting QoL improvements made? Sure.

 

Agree

 

Is there any way to safeguard against every type of error ever ever? No.

 

Absolutely agree.

 

This topic needs to be flushed. Period.

 

No reason to flush it. There is a conversation about QoL improvements for the GTN. The rest can be flushed. So...I do not agree.

 

3 out of 4...not too shabby.

Edited November 12, 2014 by LordArtemis

[mokkh]

No reason to flush it. There is a conversation about QoL improvements for the GTN. The rest can be flushed. So...I do not agree.

 

3 out of 4...not too shabby.

 

Problem: the "debate" (afaik) is about scamming. It's not a scam and the GTN system is robust enough to display several types of costs per item no matter how funky the numbers may look. The way it displays it by default is not the issue, it's the way it's being interpreted by players that has spurred the "debate". I'd rather a new topic on QoL than the non-stop re-hash of self-victimization that "everyone's scamming me because I don't know how to interpret numbers" or the pseudo-white knights that declare "we need to protect people who don't know how to interpret numbers" because they don't want to admit to falling prey to their own inattentiveness.

 

Hell, I've screwed the pooch with the GTN before, but I am man enough to admit it was my own drunken stupidity.

 

I like you Arty, we've had our scrapes before and I respect you but you've got to admit this "debate" has no cogent argument or worthwhile rebuttal. The system "as is" has no serious defects. The players "as is" do.

 

If you wanna push for QoL (and I know from reading previous posts you have) then do so. But this "cry for help" type of thread needs to be put down. Auto sort by lowest price is very convenient, is it necessary? Nope.

Edited November 12, 2014 by mokkh

[EvenHardNiner]

I have a fundamental disagreement with most of your post and it appears that there is no benefit in continuing the discussion with such fundamental difference of views.

 

I would like to know how i am twisting anything when all i did was bold and color a solution that will prevent anyone from ever having issues with the gtn.

 

I honestly don't think you're reading anything he's saying. He's given a perfectly clear explanation on the issue and still you disagree with him. You're victim blaming here when in fact it's a mix of both sides to blame.

[LordArtemis]

Problem: the "debate" (afaik) is about scamming. It's not a scam and the GTN system is robust enough to display several types of costs per item no matter how funky the numbers may look. The way it displays it by default is not the issue, it's the way it's being interpreted by players that has spurred the "debate". I'd rather a new topic on QoL than the non-stop re-hash of self-victimization that "everyone's scamming me because I don't know how to interpret numbers" or the pseudo-white knights that declare "we need to protect people who don't know how to interpret numbers" because they don't want to admit to falling prey to their own inattentiveness.

 

Hell, I've screwed the pooch with the GTN before, but I am man enough to admit it was my own drunken stupidity.

 

I like you Arty, we've had our scrapes before and I respect you but you've got to admit this "debate" has no cogent argument or worthwhile rebuttal. The system "as is" has no serious defects. The players "as is" do.

 

If you wanna push for QoL (and I know from reading previous posts you have) then do so. But this "cry for help" type of thread needs to be put down. Auto sort by lowest price is very convenient, is it necessary? Nope.

 

None of the changes are necessary of course, much like the "price per item" change certainly wasn't necessary. I think most would agree with that.

 

It was a nice convenient change. And I personally liked the sound of some of the proposed changes that came from this thread....not all of them.

 

I simply chose to rise above the hyperbole from both sides of the argument and look at the suggested changes for their QoL merits.

 

I think that adding the ability to post items with a per item price instead of a buyout price would be very convenient. So would a toggle to remove fractional currency display, lowest first by default, or a flag so I could personally mark my least and most favorite sellers. Like the suggestion to change to right justification as well.

 

Those suggestions would clean up the price list, remove the need to use a calculator to determine the proper buyout price by price per item and just make finding the cheapest item that much easier.

 

NONE of the suggested changes would protect buyers or sellers, because no change could be made that would do so. People will still make mistakes, and sellers will still game the market. Any effort to change either truth is likely futile.

 

So it is best to simply look at the proposed changes and see if they have any merit as QoL additions to the GTN.

[LordArtemis]

You're victim blaming here when in fact it's a mix of both sides to blame.

 

You sir win the prize for the evening.

 

The simple truth of the matter is that if more folks took personal responsibility on BOTH sides of the issue this would be a very different conversation.

[Deewe]

OK people I just went and did some actual GTN searching and... this "debate" is really, really, ridiculous.

 

A screen of prices without decimal places, this is for items that are both stacked and not stacked. No decimal places, like people have suggested in this thread. Just so happens that the stacks are common multiples of each other.

 

A screen for items that are both not stacked and stacked. Huge difference between 10,000 and 101.01. Just gonna throw that out there. Moreover, this person is clearly not a "scammer", they just want 10k per stack of silica.

 

And a screen for the "scammers", note how ridiculous the amount is to the quantity, they are stacks of ONE. 18 aluminum for 55,555.56? Even if you were ignorant of the number system that would be dramatically more expensive than 1,000,000. Both figures have 7 digits after all.

 

The whole decimal place argument is lost because there are two clearly demarcated columns that separate price per unit and total price. QoL talk or not, anyone that is attempting to legitimize the argument that there aren't proper safeguards in place to protect people from their own inattentiveness is intentionally delusional.

 

Can there be auto sorting QoL improvements made? Sure.

Is there any way to safeguard against every type of error ever ever? No.

This topic needs to be flushed. Period.

For the little story I do have to look twice to compare 1,000,000.00 to 55,555.56 because while I play on US servers, I've been trained for years at school and at work with numbers written like this 1 000 000 and 55 555,56.

 

So decimals can be really confusing for some.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Deewe

[LordArtemis]

I liked your suggestion list Deewe.

[anonnn]

No i disagree its not what it means . what it means is they need to take Eric's and everyone that agrees with him advice and stop the careless behavior that you yourself have mentioned.

...

 

By your logic (that's been repeated by far too many people) you would have automobile computers reprogrammed to de-activate the airbags in vehicles that are determined to be driven in any way recklessly. Going over the speed limit? CLICK. The airbags shut off. Changed lanes too quickly or too often? CLICK. The airbags shut off.

 

That's the character of the solution you're proposing. Not very astute. Not very graceful. Amazingly negligent.

 

BTW I agree with absolutely everything that was said by Eric. You chose to read into it and grossly mis-interpret it rather than paying attention to exactly what he did and didn't say. Eric's posting has literally nothing in it that makes a point against my opinion nor my proposed solution, in fact quite the opposite as I've already illustrated. His message outlines the Purchase Confirmation popup as the only automatic buyer protection, and FLAT OUT PRESCRIBES a search for any possible fixes to improve the buyer protection on the GTN.

 

How much more in my favor do you think his message could have been? My solution fits LITERALLY perfectly into his characterization of the issue. They really should just yank my solution out of this thread, fine-tune the trigger numbers to give it the characteristics they think is best, and call it good.

Edited November 12, 2014 by anonnn

[Anniahilus]

I'm going to need a bigger hole to bury this thread in ... it just will not die

[Heal-To-Full]

but becase if the buyer take care and responsibly and attention to detail the sellers won't have any power.

Checked another server, and again more evidence to indicate there are no "sellers". Exact M.O. and timing indicates it's just one bot operator running about 90% of these across all the servers.

 

There is no way with the tools available you can make a mispurchase if you follow Eric's advice.

Well duh.

Just like every scam, this doesn't work once you know about it - it doesn't work on people reading this thread - it doesn't work on people who figured it out - it works on people who don't know about it and are caught unaware.

[ScarletBlaze]

Hey thanks, I'm immediately going to uncheck that box, the confirmations windows annoys me more than anything else!

 

You are Welcome.

[anonnn]

Five seconds is long enough to make me go "Eff this." [Cancel] [x] [n] and select the crew skill myself.

...

 

You're forgetting the detail that the Purchase Confirmation would only be forced to popup when the purchase is 1M credits or more. Though, 1M credits is probably a bit high of a trigger, maybe 500K is a better trigger level. I don't know about you, but I rarely buy anything for more than 500K.

 

And I didn't spell out the details completely, but I think it would make sense for purchases below the lowest 100K trigger point (the yellow-highlighted price) to not have the 5-second delay.

[LadyVix]

Problem: the "debate" (afaik) is about scamming. It's not a scam and the GTN system is robust enough to display several types of costs per item no matter how funky the numbers may look. The way it displays it by default is not the issue, it's the way it's being interpreted by players that has spurred the "debate". I'd rather a new topic on QoL than the non-stop re-hash of self-victimization that "everyone's scamming me because I don't know how to interpret numbers" or the pseudo-white knights that declare "we need to protect people who don't know how to interpret numbers" because they don't want to admit to falling prey to their own inattentiveness.

 

Hell, I've screwed the pooch with the GTN before, but I am man enough to admit it was my own drunken stupidity.

 

I like you Arty, we've had our scrapes before and I respect you but you've got to admit this "debate" has no cogent argument or worthwhile rebuttal. The system "as is" has no serious defects. The players "as is" do.

 

If you wanna push for QoL (and I know from reading previous posts you have) then do so. But this "cry for help" type of thread needs to be put down. Auto sort by lowest price is very convenient, is it necessary? Nope.

 

If this doesn't qualify as an in-game scam, what exactly does? A scam is simply using deceit or confusion to take advantage of others. In this case some players are manipulating their listing price per item in order to confuse others. In my opinion, that absolutely meets the scam definition.

 

Do you think that it's good that some players are trying to take advange of the less attentive players? Should stupid people not have any protections? Where do you draw the line? Regardless of how stupid some may be, they are still PAYING CUSTOMERS, (F2P and Preferred players have credit caps that prevent them from losing large amounts of credits) and as such, Bioware should consider their welfare in addressing this issue.

 

Personally speaking, I find it offensive that so many people defend the "they're stupid, and thus shouldn't be protected" argument. It's very probable that people who get scammed will leave and not come back. People that don't come back are a permanent loss of revenue that would otherwise go towards keeping the servers operating. People that get scammed will tell all their friends about how SWTOR caters to scammers, and they will cause more revenue loss. Do you find those repercussions acceptable? Sorry, but I don't.

 

Beyond that, I'm annoyed when I look for things on the GTN, and have to weed out the idiots who price Plasteel at 330,333 credits ea, phobium at 350,333 credits ea, and bondite at 800,333 ea. Do they really think that a single bondite is worth 800k credits? Of course not. Their only motivation is, of course, to trick others into paying their hyper inflated prices. If I were able to pick the people that I want to spend time with in-game, I'll take the friendly moron over the scammer EVERY TIME.

[Reno_Tarshil]

By your logic (that's been repeated by far too many people) you would have automobile computers reprogrammed to de-activate the airbags in vehicles that are determined to be driven in any way recklessly. Going over the speed limit? CLICK. The airbags shut off. Changed lanes too quickly or too often? CLICK. The airbags shut off.

 

That's the character of the solution you're proposing. Not very astute. Not very graceful. Amazingly negligent.

 

BTW I agree with absolutely everything that was said by Eric. You chose to read into it and grossly mis-interpret it rather than paying attention to exactly what he did and didn't say. Eric's posting has literally nothing in it that makes a point against my opinion nor my proposed solution, in fact quite the opposite as I've already illustrated. His message outlines the Purchase Confirmation popup as the only automatic buyer protection, and FLAT OUT PRESCRIBES a search for any possible fixes to improve the buyer protection on the GTN.

 

How much more in my favor do you think his message could have been? My solution fits LITERALLY perfectly into his characterization of the issue. They really should just yank my solution out of this thread, fine-tune the trigger numbers to give it the characteristics they think is best, and call it good.

 

Why should they bother when people don't pay attention to what they're clicking anyways? No giant flashing colored sign is going to fix stupidity.