Ops and the Holy Trinity

[Drockter]

That's kind of my point. Even if you don't have a "tank" or a "healer", those roles still exist, they just won't be called "tanks" or "healers". The reason that tactical flashpoints work without a real tank or healer is that they've been made so easy that even a DPS can act as a tank, or a healer.

 

Clicking a kolto station does not make one a healer. Personally, I prefer the different skill trees and "roles" for Tanks, Healers, and DPS... I would not like to see any game do away with them, I've tried a few that did, and well... I am not playing them in favor of one who respects that style of game play to a large extent.

[MillionsKNives]

Clicking a kolto station does not make one a healer.

 

It doesn't make you a dedicated healer, but you just healed the group. Does it matter whether you did it with an ability or a clickable object? The outcome is the same.

[Kryand]

That's kind of my point. Even if you don't have a "tank" or a "healer", those roles still exist, they just won't be called "tanks" or "healers". The reason that tactical flashpoints work without a real tank or healer is that they've been made so easy that even a DPS can act as a tank, or a healer.

 

That doesn't seem all that different, you're just diffusing the same role across more people and making it simple enough that any of them can act in that role. In just about any scenario where anyone can end up being the tank and anyone can end up being the healer, a dedicated tank or healer would be significantly better at the role.

 

The "trinity" as you know it is an extreme representation of the three roles that encompass it, where everyone only has one role. There's the person taking the brunt of the attack (tank), the person doing damage (dps), and the person keeping everyone alive (healer). My question to you is this: when you say that you want to move away from the trinity are you saying that you want to get rid of roles altogether, or do you just want to move away from players having dedicated roles?

 

If you want to remove the healing role altogether (removing the tanking role completely is conceptually much more difficult and means that no one person could have a boss's attention) then the answer to your question about what mechanics are removed is the mechanics that require you to outheal the incoming damage. You specified that you wanted examples other than that, but that's what the healer's job is. So if you want to remove the healer's job then you also remove the things that the healer does.

 

If you just want to get rid of players having dedicated roles then obviously there are no mechanical differences, because all of the jobs are still there, just spread across all the players. While this can be appealing to some, I think it fails in that you just have a collection of jacks-of-all-trades-masters-of-none.

 

I dunno, defining the trinity like that makes it applicable to virtually any game with health bars, even across totally different genres. Resident Evil 5 is now a trinity game, because you can heal each other and draw the enemies' attention. At that point, the word starts to lose it's meaning, because you can apply it to almost anything. That's why I disagree with that interpretation. Given that this whole argument gets turned on its head when there's a fundamental difference of opinion as to what constitutes the trinity system, there's not much point in continuing. You would still call a lot of my solutions to the mechanics question part of a trinity system, if all you require is that a boss focuses on someone for any length of time. As for the healer stuff, everything you mentioned falls under "heal check" to me, which I already admitted would be lost.

 

As for your question of which I would prefer, both could be interesting. Complete removal of the heal and tank roles would lend itself to what I was talking about before - an entirely new type of game (MMORTS being one example). Letting everyone fill every role at once would be like Champions Online, which was an extraordinarily fun game. I'd never have started playing SWTOR if Cryptic/PWE didn't utterly destroy everything that made CO good. The end-game needed improvement to provide any sort of challenge, but it could have gotten there if they decided to work on it instead of gut the entire game. Even the ridiculous characters that my team designed, which could self-heal through any boss' damage in the game while putting out 5 times the DPS necessary to clear the content, had to pause to deal with some of the mechanics in the final raid. Anyway, reminiscing about that isn't too useful. But regardless, my point is that it can work. Maybe some people wouldn't like it as much as the trinity, but I know plenty who would.

[Khevar]

As I think more about this topic, I realized it's less about wanting the classic "trinity" of Tank, Heal, DPS and more about having "combat specialization"

 

As with many people, my first foray into this game was as a dps. When I hit 50 I started running flashpoints (and eventually operations), as a dps. At some point along this line, I created a healer alt, got to 50, and tried running the same content. The experience was different. Even later, I created a tank alt and went through the same thing.

 

My own guild would have abandoned raiding an awful long time ago if it weren't for the fact that we could musical-chair roles when we got bored. The experience of running group content is different under these different specializations.

 

A game that got rid of the trinity, but didn't replace it with some other sort of "role specialization" would seem to have a more bland experience (in the long run).

[Projawa]

SWTOR tanking is fine, healing and DPS is not, there are very few skill for DPS that you can use to buff other members of the team and even to tag mobs. The few skills we have many of them cause or have the same effects, we need more variety of skills for DPS, AOE, healing, specially when healing groups.

 

Tanking in this game is outpaced by dps and hps aggro. Requiring taunts in the tps rotation seems like poor design, intended or not. The assassin hybrid tank build for aoe dmg reduction substantially reduces or removes the healing challenge in many nightmare encounters.

 

Back on topic: yes the trinity has been around awhile and isn't perfect. But until someone creates a system that is better and not merely 'different', it's the best system we have. Try GW2 to see a non trinity system.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Projawa

[Khevar]

Tanking in this game is outpaced by dps and hps aggro.

Tanking in this game is not remotely outpaced by hps aggro.

[mokkh]

So if Robin from the '60s Batman TV show uttered, upon meeting Trinity from the Matrix movies, "Holy Trinity!" that would be a religious expression?

 

I don't think so.

 

On topic, less specialization, more good. Specialization leads to cookie builds. More fun to play around with different skills, specs, etc.

 

If it was capitalized, yes.

The truth doesn't need your belief to make it so.

[EllieAnne]

I was just looking for my next MMO and was interested in Black Desert. No Healer Class! I don't like dem apples.

[TheWookiee]

My two cents on the standard MMO Trinity is not necessarily remove it form the game but to rethink it on a player character class level. The Tank - Heal - DPS standard, IMO leads to more interesting and difficult fights where specialization is required in certain roles, where in contrast, a group with no real specialization just seems flat and boring (i.e. tactical flashpoints)

 

With that said, I think character/classes need much more flexibility and diversity on individual characters where they can at least have the ability to fill in 2 if not all 3 of the roles if needed. I will use this game as an example of what I mean. Take the Sith Warrier class. There is no need to have two separate advanced classes. The ability to DPS or tank and in contrast to use one or two sabers should have been ties to lightsaber forms. Each form should have had a tree similar ot the advance classes to customize it, but all trees should have been filled out during leveling allowing for stance/form changes on the fly as needed for the raid. Having this ability I believe could lead to the development of more unique boss fights and mechanics. The only other issue to deal with is secondary stat specialization. Perhaps accuracy, critical and power stats could affect both dps and replace shield, defense and absorb so gear swapping would not be an issue.

 

Of course, this would have a large impact on the gear/loot system. But I would rather have a more simplistic gear/class system that allowed for truly epic and interesting gameplay rather than the boring tank and spank that the majority are with the occasional colored target on the ground.

[AlixMV]

By that logic, Tacticals are still 100% trinity, as someone always has aggro, and someone presses the heal object. If your definition of a trinity fight is that broad, then literally any fight where health meters can go up or a boss looks at any player on the team is a trinity fight, despite the fact that there is no actual tank and no actual healer.

 

Yep.

 

All the worst Kuat Drive Yards experiences I've had has been while leveling and going in with all DPS or one DPS and a pseudo "tank" who acts like a DPS. No one wants to hit the heal stations during the boss fights, the people who generate enough DPS threat to have the aggro don't know how to tank, and people die like flies. "Because we're DPS, not tanks or healers."

 

Basically, I agree with MillionKnives. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck. If you're the one in the boss's face grabbing aggro, you're the tank for that encounter, even if you're a Marauder. If you're the one who volunteers to hit the heal station, you're the healer, even if you're a Gunslinger. (And I've successfully filled both trinity roles in KDY as those classes).

 

The Advanced Class specializations simply make it easier to do one role or the other.

Edited September 26, 2014 by AlixMV

[Lord_of_Mu]

Tanking in this game is not remotely outpaced by hps aggro.

 

For some reason the image of a morbidly obese endurance stacking force user tank with armor made entirely of tinfoil and a box of jelly doughnuts in his off hand came to mind. And we shall call him, Darth Butterfingers.

 

His hands are so greasy he can't even hit his primary target! And all those mobs, too many distractions from the doughnuts. So he has to keep taunting his opponents to keep them focused on him.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Lord_of_Mu

[EllieAnne]

Huge shift? Where is it? I dont see it.

 

Oh you mean Guild Wars 2? This now irrelevant game, that was supposed to kill all the "generic" MMOs?

 

Mhm.

Black Desert - No healer class.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I think it was Sunday when I had to be the Healer in KDY (won my very, very first KDY-thing, yay ! ) , although I was playing an damage-oriented Sage.

 

Regarding the term "Holy Trinity" : I sometimes use it ironically, because some people take the "trinity" concept in MMOs imho FAR too serious - as if it was some kind of holy thing.

 

And it isn't.

 

What I'll *never* understand, though, is, why the "Trinity" never made its jump into offline RPGs ?

[RaiderMid]

The sooner the trinity system dies the better.

[Elfa]

They should retool the classes completely and remove dedicated healer and tank classes, just make it all tactical.

[TheWookiee]

 

What I'll *never* understand, though, is, why the "Trinity" never made its jump into offline RPGs ?

 

Actually, disagree. The basic Trinity is in the newer single player RPGs. A lot of them are using team composition these days. Skyrim for example, I almost always used a companion melee tank class on my assassin so I could sit back and range everything. A lot of times in Mass Effect as a biotic, I would do healing on my team with higher difficulty settings. The trinity is there, just in a basic form.

 

Single player RPGs with NPC companions seem to be the norm these days. And they seem to have a close conneciton with tanks, heals and DPS.

[TheWookiee]

They should retool the classes completely and remove dedicated healer and tank classes, just make it all tactical.

 

This game would be incredibly boring with only tactical endgame.

[Elfa]

This game would be incredibly boring with only tactical endgame.

 

Proof?

[lpope]

Proof?

You can't really provide proof to a statement of opinion, which is what I believe TheWookkiee was doing. I'm mostly of the same opinion. I find most of the tacticals save Manaan boring even compared to the lvl 50 HM FPs which are a complete faceroll at 55.

 

If the game was retooled to be tactical only PVE endgame, I would most likely quit. I don't think the rest of the content (PvP, conquests, GSH, etc) would be enough to entertain me. Just my opinion though.

[TheWookiee]

Proof?

 

The proof is that boss dynamics would have to be simplified to accommodate 4/8/16 DPS only. You could not have excessive raid damage mechanics due to possibility of no healer. No heavy hitting or specific positioning on bosses due to no tank to control agro. All boss fights would become the same "burn and don't step in colored ****" mechanics for everything. That sounds like a game I would not play. There is little to no progression with tacticals. No progression means shallow content and lack of content means smaller player base.

[bdatt]

So to summarize this thread:

 

Post 1: Shouldn't people be able to specialize as tank or healer in this game?

Post 2: You already can in the skill trees

Post 3-95: derailed discussion on removing the trinity.

 

To continue, imagine Tyrans and his thundering blast replacing the rancor fight in KP. Right now it's punishing for the tank to aim Tyrans wrong or for a dps to pull threat. With out a tank his damage would have to be lowered so any dps can take it. Make that change and add a dps check and I'm no longer welcome in the fight as a tank.

 

So while it's quite possible to create interesting and challenging non-trinity content, I don't see how removing the trinity all of a sudden opens up a lot of design options that can't also fit in the trinity. Interrupts and telegraph dodges? Check out wildstar which has that and is also a trinity, as well as a few fights here (Draxus, and many with red cires).

Edited September 29, 2014 by bdatt

[eartharioch]

What I'll *never* understand, though, is, why the "Trinity" never made its jump into offline RPGs ?

 

??? Explain, please. I'm pretty sure ("Dungeons and Dragons" pretty sure) that the "Trinity" was around well before "modern" MMO*s. At least the standard swtor Flashpoint party of Fighter (Tank), Cleric (Heals), Mage (DPS), and Thief (DPS) was.

[robertthebard]

Proof?

 

Have your read this thread, and the discussion of tactical FPs? If you've read it, and haven't seen the people claiming they're boring, then there is no proof, since you believe they're all wrong. Which, I suppose, means you really need to look at how your toons are put together, because frankly, I ran KDY on lowbies in green drop gear, and with the bolster, it was gravy. The new FPs aren't hard either. I kited the boss at the end of Manaan, on my Assassin, and let 3 DPS sorcs wear his *** out. So designing the whole game that way? Yeah, it would suck.

[EllieAnne]

So to summarize this thread:

 

Post 1: Shouldn't people be able to specialize as tank or healer in this game?

 

Actually it was more of Shouldn't we have dedicated healers and tanks as opposed to DPS who can heal or tank viz. everyone can solo.

[AlrikFassbauer]

This game would be incredibly boring with only tactical endgame.

 

Never played Divinity : Original Sin ?

 

Actually, disagree. The basic Trinity is in the newer single player RPGs.

 

I can't judge, because I don't play newer RPGs. I'm an "old school" player to a great part - and that's why I enjoyed Drakensang 1 & 2 and Divinity : Original Sin so much.

 

I still need to buy myself MMX, though.

 

??? Explain, please. I'm pretty sure ("Dungeons and Dragons" pretty sure) that the "Trinity" was around well before "modern" MMO*s. At least the standard swtor Flashpoint party of Fighter (Tank), Cleric (Heals), Mage (DPS), and Thief (DPS) was.

 

Okay, but I didn't play offline (A)D&D games back then. My first one was BG.

 

 

Besides, all "Divinity" games are completely classless.

Edited September 30, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer