Planetary Conquest is Dominated by LARGE Allied guilds

[Bluejayoo]

First, I am not in a mega-guild. My guild will probably never control a planet.

 

But I am perfectly ok with this content being dominated by a few large guilds. Running large guilds is a massive effort. There should be some kind of reward for that investment of time. Until this patch there was NOTHING in the game for large guilds to do. The game was very much slanted in favor of tiny 5-10 person friends and family guilds, and there is already plenty of content for solo players and smaller guilds. Even the conquest system has rewards for solo players and smaller guilds.

 

And your concept of large guilds dominating the expansion content is completely flawed. The top 10 guilds on each planet can win the guild rewards. With 3 planets that means 30 guilds have a shot each week of getting the guild level rewards. Even if there are one or two mega guilds dominating a tiny slice of the conquest content, 28 normal sized guilds can still participate and benefit.

 

Not every bit of content in the game has to be or even should be accessible to every player.

[Tsillah]

The problem is that the conquest stuff rewards too few guilds because the top 10 will be dominated by the same guilds.

 

For a yearly competition that would be ok but for a weekly competition that should get as many players involved as possible this is not a great situation.

 

Just throwing something out there but why restrict the guild reward to the top 10? Why not a top 20 or 25? In the end the rewards only adds to the issues that the same guilds will have the best resources. I think the simplest quick fix is this: just reward more guilds. Also some servers are sort of superservers as far as I understand it and have a lot higher population. Especially there it's necessary that the rewards extend to more guilds than just the top 10.

 

I mean we put in a lot of effort ourselves the last few days and on the first two days we were in the top 10 and then just out of it. Now, we don't have even half of the 10th spot currently. BW will have to decide what to do but this doesn't encourage people to continue to participate.

 

Sure the biggest guilds that are organised the best will win. BW should've known this also. So who was this content for exactly. Just the top few guilds on the server or should it be for a majority of players on each server?

[Failtima]

The problem is that the conquest stuff rewards too few guilds because the top 10 will be dominated by the same guilds.

 

For a yearly competition that would be ok but for a weekly competition that should get as many players involved as possible this is not a great situation.

 

Just throwing something out there but why restrict the guild reward to the top 10? Why not a top 20 or 25? In the end the rewards only adds to the issues that the same guilds will have the best resources. I think the simplest quick fix is this: just reward more guilds. Also some servers are sort of superservers as far as I understand it and have a lot higher population. Especially there it's necessary that the rewards extend to more guilds than just the top 10.

 

I mean we put in a lot of effort ourselves the last few days and on the first two days we were in the top 10 and then just out of it. Now, we don't have even half of the 10th spot currently. BW will have to decide what to do but this doesn't encourage people to continue to participate.

 

Sure the biggest guilds that are organised the best will win. BW should've known this also. So who was this content for exactly. Just the top few guilds on the server or should it be for a majority of players on each server?

 

Ayep, remember, there should be no rewards for winning, just a pretty ribbon to everyone for "participating". Anything else just wouldn't be "fair". Remember, everyone is a winner!

 

If we can consistently be in the top ten so far with a guild our size then any medium sized guild can.

[Toweleeeie]

Meh conquest at this point is meaningless. You get your guild name on a list... Edited September 4, 2014 by Toweleeeie

[Alec_Fortescue]

Why is there so much hate and crying? Conquests only drain credits (50 mil+ for ships!) without even rewarding you properly with something of value or to show off.

 

Like Toweliee said... Meaningless.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Alec_Fortescue

[Grayseven]

Setting aside all the alleged sins of Conquest presented by the OP.....it remains to be seen if there is really any core problem at work here. Sure some guilds are dominating right now, but a lot of that is about them doing advance preparation, planning, and commitment (what a novel concept in warfare ). But it is not clear that that is sustainable over the long term as there are simply too many resources being consumed, and keep in mind the short attention span of players (and guilds) toward content.

 

If it's not broken, don't fix it. The system as-is appears to be working as intended. And as Rafaman noted earlier... like all content in MMOs.. it is what you make of it (though the free candy dispenser mentality in MMO players continues to lay a tearful siege on the concept).

 

Conquest was meant to bring guild members together in a common cause and in a PvP environment. That has been much asked for and sorely needed in this game and we now have some of that. Hopefully, they expand Conquests over time or add other content that encourages similar cooperation-for-a-cause.

 

I don't think the idea behind the Conquest system was to have the system dominated by the same guilds every week.

 

Even if resources are going away, they are going away for everyone which means the status quo won't change. We see the same guilds on the leader board every week and eventually people who can't break the top ten will just stop trying.

 

I also deny your "PvP environment" stance. Aside from commanders, this isn't a PvP event. There are far more points available for PvE in these events.

 

The simple fact is that any system that rewards only a few will quickly become a system ignored by the many. If there are instances of guilds cooperating cross-faction to deny other guilds opportunity it stifles competition and the resultant frustration will cause people to being to ignore the content.

 

Does EA/BW want to take the chance that all of their work with the Conquest system will quickly become something only used by a few guilds while being ignored by the majority who will then start clamoring for "something new to do"?

 

This isn't about guilds "commitment and preparation", it is about a system that fails because it doesn't take into account the few mega-guilds ability to continuously dominate week after week. The system should have taken this into account and encouraged these mega guilds to conquest until they won a planet and then set up a system where they could benefit from that conquest weekly until that planet once again came up for conquest. With the number of planets available and with Conquering guilds being able to reap a continuous benefit from their conquest, more guilds could be competitive.

 

Common sense should tell you that opening up a system to be enjoy and won by more than just the same group week after week is better than the current system.

[TUXs]

I don't think the idea behind the Conquest system was to have the system dominated by the same guilds every week.

 

Even if resources are going away, they are going away for everyone which means the status quo won't change. We see the same guilds on the leader board every week and eventually people who can't break the top ten will just stop trying.

 

I also deny your "PvP environment" stance. Aside from commanders, this isn't a PvP event. There are far more points available for PvE in these events.

 

The simple fact is that any system that rewards only a few will quickly become a system ignored by the many. If there are instances of guilds cooperating cross-faction to deny other guilds opportunity it stifles competition and the resultant frustration will cause people to being to ignore the content.

 

Does EA/BW want to take the chance that all of their work with the Conquest system will quickly become something only used by a few guilds while being ignored by the majority who will then start clamoring for "something new to do"?

 

This isn't about guilds "commitment and preparation", it is about a system that fails because it doesn't take into account the few mega-guilds ability to continuously dominate week after week. The system should have taken this into account and encouraged these mega guilds to conquest until they won a planet and then set up a system where they could benefit from that conquest weekly until that planet once again came up for conquest. With the number of planets available and with Conquering guilds being able to reap a continuous benefit from their conquest, more guilds could be competitive.

 

Common sense should tell you that opening up a system to be enjoy and won by more than just the same group week after week is better than the current system.

Great post. I love the system, but you've outlined the issues with it perfectly.

[Psychopyro]

My guild has had other guilds swoop in and "steal" commanders from us... From getting there first, or healing the commander, or pulling before the shield was down and holding until it drops off. But are they really "stealing" ??? Did the commander have MY GUILD'S NAME on it? Or did another guild come in, and out-maneuver/out-think us and take it? It's all part of the game. If what you are doing isn't working, find another way. Outsmart the competition, overpower them, or give up.

 

2 guilds on the same side fighting for control of the Commanders is one thing. Blatantly using a guild from the other faction to protect the commander for you, I personally think that one is crossing a line....

 

The 2 guilds in question are of the biggest on the server. For them to not only be the biggest and win every time, they somehow feel that is not enough and feel the need to grief other guilds. Personally I want to get a healing party together and anytime one of these guilds shows up for a commander, I just want to heal the hell out of it just so they can't take it...

 

I have no problem with the opposing side coming to protect the commander and I think that point is a good thing. But when a guild shows up to protect it for an opposing faction guild to take it, it crosses a line. If this is really supposed to be a "war", the biggest on each side should not be helping each other...

[Ocho-Quatro]

Personally I want to get a healing party together and anytime one of these guilds shows up for a commander, I just want to heal the hell out of it just so they can't take it...

 

All sarcasm, snarkyness and joking aside.... THAT right there? Is getting in the spirit of CONQUEST.

 

Conquest is war, you do whatever it takes to win. Whether that means you make a "deal with the devil" and have an alliance with an opposing faction, or you sheer brute force, or you find a way (like healing commanders) to simply thwart the goals of a competing conquesting guild?

[azudelphi]

All sarcasm, snarkyness and joking aside.... THAT right there? Is getting in the spirit of CONQUEST.

 

Conquest is war, you do whatever it takes to win. Whether that means you make a "deal with the devil" and have an alliance with an opposing faction, or you sheer brute force, or you find a way (like healing commanders) to simply thwart the goals of a competing conquesting guild?

 

I can honestly say, one of the most fun moments I have ever had in this game is watching my pvp flagged guildies (we had just killed a commander ourselves) intercept a group killing our faction's named commander while myself and another guildie who managed to remain unflagged, healed the named commander...

 

Seeing the attrition of their dps and watching the commander gain 7% health from when we got there... priceless.

Edited September 4, 2014 by azudelphi

[Failtima]

I don't think the idea behind the Conquest system was to have the system dominated by the same guilds every week.

 

Even if resources are going away, they are going away for everyone which means the status quo won't change. We see the same guilds on the leader board every week and eventually people who can't break the top ten will just stop trying.

 

I also deny your "PvP environment" stance. Aside from commanders, this isn't a PvP event. There are far more points available for PvE in these events.

 

The simple fact is that any system that rewards only a few will quickly become a system ignored by the many. If there are instances of guilds cooperating cross-faction to deny other guilds opportunity it stifles competition and the resultant frustration will cause people to being to ignore the content.

 

Does EA/BW want to take the chance that all of their work with the Conquest system will quickly become something only used by a few guilds while being ignored by the majority who will then start clamoring for "something new to do"?

 

This isn't about guilds "commitment and preparation", it is about a system that fails because it doesn't take into account the few mega-guilds ability to continuously dominate week after week. The system should have taken this into account and encouraged these mega guilds to conquest until they won a planet and then set up a system where they could benefit from that conquest weekly until that planet once again came up for conquest. With the number of planets available and with Conquering guilds being able to reap a continuous benefit from their conquest, more guilds could be competitive.

 

Common sense should tell you that opening up a system to be enjoy and won by more than just the same group week after week is better than the current system.

 

Common sense should tell you that in any competition, and conquest is a competition, that some will win and some will loose. Some will do well and some will not. Some will try their hardest and others barely try at all.

 

Any medium sized or larger guild can make the top ten and earn rewards. All it takes is some time, effort, and paying attention to the conquest missions. If a guild isn't in contention then it's their own choice by not putting anything into it. Will the top one or two spots be held by large or mega guilds regularly? Yes, but the whole rest of the top ten is up for grabs by any guild willing to put in the time & effort.

 

Everyone deserves a CHANCE to make top ten and get those rewards. But that's all they deserve, the opportunity, which already exists.

 

I earned around 150k week one, 250k week two, and am at around 300k right now in week three and I do NOT pvp, ever...just don't care for it(and GSF) as a personal preference. That's 4 non-active toons going for the personal bonus and 1 active toon. So no, it is NOT geared to pvp.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Failtima

[Heezdedjim]

If you don't fix this, it will be 3 guilds running this server, hand in hand, and the rest of us locked out. And that doesn't even begin to consider all the guilds who can't afford ships or don't have 500 people.

It's not like nobody saw this coming. People have been pointing out since day 1 that this would inevitably happen, and it would not take long.

 

You're wrong about it being "broken" though. In fact it's working exactly the way it was designed to work. That design might make conquest seem like not much fun for people who think it would be fun to win conquest, but who now see that they have exactly zero chance of ever doing that, unless they're in one of these handful of dominant guilds. But as far as how conquest works, it's doing exactly what they built it to do. That is not going to change.

 

The reason the system won't change is because it was designed to attract and retain those players who are in this handful of huge guilds that you're talking about. The system was designed to cater to them and to give them something worth staying in the game for. That's why it was built; because the game wasn't offering much to those folks before. It wasn't designed for you. Other parts of the game were made for you. This was not.

 

Even if they "fix" any one particular mechanic relating to conquest, it is not going to matter. No matter how "level" the field is, and no matter what your small or "casual" guild does, a large and hardcore guild can always do the exact same thing more obsessively and with 10x as many people. You are not going to "win" this, unless they make it so that everyone "wins" who shows up, which is how everything else in the PvE game works. They won't do that, because it would amount to basically taking conquest out of the game.

 

And if your small or "casual" conquest guild won a planet in the early rounds we've had so far, then that was because the hardcore conquest guilds on your server did not have their **** together yet. Once they do, you will be shut out like everyone else.

 

Conquest simply divides players into two bins: (1) those who really, really want to win conquest; and (2) everyone else. If you only sort of want to win, or wish you could win, then you're not in that first group.

 

If you really, really want to win conquest, then your choices are simple: either get in one of the handful of guilds that win every week; or turn your guild into one of those guilds by doing the same things that they do.

 

If you only sort of want to win or just wish you could win, but you're not willing to do whatever it takes to win, then you're just like the other 95% of people who aren't in one of these handful of hardcore conquest guilds. In that case your choice also is simple: either change yourself into someone who really, really wants to win conquest; or forget that it exists and go do something else.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Heezdedjim

[scottythebod]

2 guilds on the same side fighting for control of the Commanders is one thing. Blatantly using a guild from the other faction to protect the commander for you, I personally think that one is crossing a line....

 

The 2 guilds in question are of the biggest on the server. For them to not only be the biggest and win every time, they somehow feel that is not enough and feel the need to grief other guilds. Personally I want to get a healing party together and anytime one of these guilds shows up for a commander, I just want to heal the hell out of it just so they can't take it...

 

I have no problem with the opposing side coming to protect the commander and I think that point is a good thing. But when a guild shows up to protect it for an opposing faction guild to take it, it crosses a line. If this is really supposed to be a "war", the biggest on each side should not be helping each other...

What if it's a cross faction guild? Can they not organize their sister guild to help them out?

 

And really it's not set up as a faction war (pubs vs. imps) it's a war between guilds some of which are on the same faction. So if I'm trying to beat someone else of my own faction I want to stop them from getting the commander. Now granted I don't know a lot about the OWPVP areas but I'm assuming I can't attack them directly since we're on the same faction so the next obvious choice would be to log on to alt's on the other side (which usually are also in a sister guild) and attempt to stop you. I don't really see that as a problem, a guild should be able to use everything at their disposal, if that includes a "sister guild" in the opposite faction I don't have a problem with that.

 

I honestly don't have a problem with them brokering alliances either, but I'm not sure I get the motivation. I mean if a completely separate guild wants to do all the work of clearing players from the commander wouldn't they want to take those conquest points for their guild? I just don't see the justification for dedicating your guilds resources to help another guild get conquest points instead of using those resources to get your own guild points. But maybe I'm missing something.

[Psychopyro]

What if it's a cross faction guild? Can they not organize their sister guild to help them out?

 

And really it's not set up as a faction war (pubs vs. imps) it's a war between guilds some of which are on the same faction. So if I'm trying to beat someone else of my own faction I want to stop them from getting the commander. Now granted I don't know a lot about the OWPVP areas but I'm assuming I can't attack them directly since we're on the same faction so the next obvious choice would be to log on to alt's on the other side (which usually are also in a sister guild) and attempt to stop you. I don't really see that as a problem, a guild should be able to use everything at their disposal, if that includes a "sister guild" in the opposite faction I don't have a problem with that.

 

I honestly don't have a problem with them brokering alliances either, but I'm not sure I get the motivation. I mean if a completely separate guild wants to do all the work of clearing players from the commander wouldn't they want to take those conquest points for their guild? I just don't see the justification for dedicating your guilds resources to help another guild get conquest points instead of using those resources to get your own guild points. But maybe I'm missing something.

What in all honesty I think will fix this is if once you attack the commander, you are flagged open PVP to everyone not in your group (like Outlaw's Den on Tat). If this really supposed to be guild vs guild regardless of faction, then that is what should happen.

 

Keep in mind that these guild are also "trading" commanders. Basically they protect their same faction commanders from other guild till their buddies come and attack it.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Psychopyro

[Quinnt]

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible; and when you strike and overcome him, never let up in the pursuit so long as your men have strength to follow; for an army routed, if hotly pursued, becomes panic-stricken, and can then be destroyed by half their number." - General T.J. "Stonewall" Jackson

[scottythebod]

What in all honesty I think will fix this is if once you attack the commander, you are flagged open PVP to everyone not in your group (like Outlaw's Den on Tat). If this really supposed to be guild vs guild regardless of faction, then that is what should happen.

 

Keep in mind that these guild are also "trading" commanders. Basically they protect their same faction commanders from other guild till their buddies come and attack it.

Ahhh OK, so there's 2 commanders in the same area, one for each side. That makes more sense then, I haven't done the commanders yet because I'm not lvl 55 so I don't know a whole lot about the commanders or how they work.

 

As far as you thoughts about flagging everyone not in your group, the only problem I see with that is the relatively small group sizes available. Again I'm somewhat new to the game so I don't have a ton of experience but isn't the biggest group 16 people? If so that somewhat limits how many people from a guild could effectively participate as we'd be friendly firing our guildmates down if we had to form more than one group.

[GrovesK]

The one thing I don't get OP is if you hate conquests so much then just don't do it. You liked the game up until now but this one voluntary part of the game that doesn't even give that great of rewards makes you so mad that you are going to quit the game?

 

What is Conquests preventing you from doing that you did prior to 2.9?

[Psychopyro]

Ahhh OK, so there's 2 commanders in the same area, one for each side. That makes more sense then, I haven't done the commanders yet because I'm not lvl 55 so I don't know a whole lot about the commanders or how they work.

 

As far as you thoughts about flagging everyone not in your group, the only problem I see with that is the relatively small group sizes available. Again I'm somewhat new to the game so I don't have a ton of experience but isn't the biggest group 16 people? If so that somewhat limits how many people from a guild could effectively participate as we'd be friendly firing our guildmates down if we had to form more than one group.

Yea, 16 is the biggest, but you only need 8 or so to take down even a named commander. Friendly fire is always a concern in any war, it just adds another layer to it.

[Ocho-Quatro]

Commanders aren't instanced... So you CAN bring as many people as can fit in an Ops group.

[MidichIorian]

I don't see a feasible solution. One approach would be to add an active players/guild coefficient but it has a big con; Guilds would become reluctant to keep those who are active but not contributing much, in terms of conquest points. Then again, most guilds probably have players like that so it might have balanced out.

 

And what I mean by coefficient is that the guild with the most active players would get 1.0. So if this guild has 500 active players and another guild only has 400 players the smaller guild would get a score of (their conquest points) x (500/400). It would require that the system updates at all times or in a worst scenario used mondays, since they're not included in the conquest week anyway, to calculate the results.

 

Or simply have it revolve around the average score of players who gain more than 10K points.

[Grayseven]

Common sense should tell you that in any competition, and conquest is a competition, that some will win and some will loose. Some will do well and some will not. Some will try their hardest and others barely try at all.

 

Any medium sized or larger guild can make the top ten and earn rewards. All it takes is some time, effort, and paying attention to the conquest missions. If a guild isn't in contention then it's their own choice by not putting anything into it. Will the top one or two spots be held by large or mega guilds regularly? Yes, but the whole rest of the top ten is up for grabs by any guild willing to put in the time & effort.

 

Everyone deserves a CHANCE to make top ten and get those rewards. But that's all they deserve, the opportunity, which already exists.

 

I earned around 150k week one, 250k week two, and am at around 300k right now in week three and I do NOT pvp, ever...just don't care for it(and GSF) as a personal preference. That's 4 non-active toons going for the personal bonus and 1 active toon. So no, it is NOT geared to pvp.

 

What you, and others, fail to understand is that most of us understand the nature of competition. We understand that the event is a competition and that the standard rules of competition apply.

 

Unfortunately, you also fail to understand that players will cease to compete if they are pushed out of the competition because of a built in bias towards certain competitors. In this case, mega-guilds.

 

Games can only support so many mega-guilds, and SWTOR is no exception. While their are a number of large guilds, there are only a few mega-guilds and it is these guilds that are seen at the top of the leader board every week.

 

The system needs to encourage all guilds to compete, but to also encourage winners to hold what they have. The current system lets mega guilds dominate every single week when a more competitive system would allow more guilds to compete over time. While mega-guilds would win the initial weeks, the large guilds would then be competitive in later weeks.

 

The current system is akin to a football league composed of 3 NFL teams, 6 College teams and 21 High School teams. The 3 NFL teams compete for the top 3 spots among themselves, the 6 College teams compete for the remaining spots and the High School teams beat each other up for the last spot in the top ten.

 

How long before the High Schoolers give up because they have to keep struggling but receive no return on their struggle because the system is unbalanced?

[Psychopyro]

What you, and others, fail to understand is that most of us understand the nature of competition. We understand that the event is a competition and that the standard rules of competition apply.

 

Unfortunately, you also fail to understand that players will cease to compete if they are pushed out of the competition because of a built in bias towards certain competitors. In this case, mega-guilds.

 

Games can only support so many mega-guilds, and SWTOR is no exception. While their are a number of large guilds, there are only a few mega-guilds and it is these guilds that are seen at the top of the leader board every week.

 

The system needs to encourage all guilds to compete, but to also encourage winners to hold what they have. The current system lets mega guilds dominate every single week when a more competitive system would allow more guilds to compete over time. While mega-guilds would win the initial weeks, the large guilds would then be competitive in later weeks.

 

The current system is akin to a football league composed of 3 NFL teams, 6 College teams and 21 High School teams. The 3 NFL teams compete for the top 3 spots among themselves, the 6 College teams compete for the remaining spots and the High School teams beat each other up for the last spot in the top ten.

 

How long before the High Schoolers give up because they have to keep struggling but receive no return on their struggle because the system is unbalanced?

 

IDK, I think Bishop Gorman (LV) could take SW Missouri St.... LOL

[Mahrdol]

Any guild that actively helps an opposing faction guild kill their factions commander should be immediately banned from the conquests. That is treason.

 

My Solution.

 

Make the conquest faction based. Take the total points from the top 10 in each faction. Whichever faction has the most points all guilds in the top 10 from that faction get control of the planet. They are from the same faction and they all contributed to capturing the planet.

[ikinai]

I think there should be two types of conquests, one for fighting and one for logistics and intel. After all, a good army doesn't win a war simply by fighting. sure, you may win a battle or two, but without logistics your army goes nowhere and has nothing to fight with. So I would say, choose which you want to do that week, fight or provide materials for the war machine. That way, guilds that don't have flagships can still feel like they are contributing and have a chance at a type of conquest victory. It doesn't have to reward the same things as the fighting guilds, but it could grant something for helping out and being a top contributor.

[yetzor]

It is absolutely dominated by larger guilds you are right. I also believe something must be done. 2,524,000 points? cmon... I'm all for competition but if there is something that is exploitable in there get rid of it

 

And also to notes, I don't do conquests or any of that stuff for my guild. I am mainly role-play and that's it. But it's just ridiculous some of these points in a short amount of time. The larger guilds should have the most points but the numbers are just so high that something must be getting exploited. .

 

Just to say, my guild isn't mega, it is somewhat large, but 2.5 mil is nothing, the first week we pulled in 9,000,000 conquest points cause we have people who like playing the game and don't mind doing content on multiple characters, we only have like 50-60 active accounts.