Scammed on the GTN

[MillionsKNives]

I can be thrown in a PvP match against a Commando using a Vibrosword and wearing Smuggler armor and using Force Lightning. It's a possibility - it could happen. Let's ignore the fact that the game rules strictly make that scenario impossible - that's what you keep claiming when you fall back on the number of decimal places argument. Could a character in Star Wars use such a combination of things? I'm sure someone at some point has - but not in this game, which is where all this data is pertinent. 123.456 cannot happen. Is 123.456 a real number? Sure. Is 123.456 a valid number of credits and could be seen in this game? No.

 

Since you seem to be incapable of grasping my point I'll simplify for you. It's possible for someone to mistake 333,333 for 333-ish credits. There's no hypotheticals here because it's already happened. Good, now you don't have to worry about perception and whether something is possible in game and all that, you can safely ignore it.

 

And going back to the intent thing - you are assuming what the intent of the seller was. Perhaps he hit too many zeroes - is it still a scam then? Perhaps he thought he had 50 and not 5 - was his posting still an attempt at deceit? If you're going to talk about hypothetical situations, then cover every single hypothetical situation. And since every hypothetical situation can result in either party being at fault due to the sheer number of variables in said hypothetical situations, use the plain-and-simple facts of the situation to make your determination. The buyer misread the amount. He stated as much - that's an indisputable fact. He bought a listing on the GTN - he stated as much. He spent more than he had planned on - he stated as much. He is making a claim to being scammed when there is no claim to being scammed as he himself stated that he made a mistake.

 

Sigh...I have stated multiple times that I do not presume to know 100% the seller's intent. But your and others' insistence that one can not be scammed on the GTN, and that this could not possibly be a scam is 100% false.

 

From what we know from the OP, or if you don't trust the OP then from the photo evidence another poster included, people are listing multiple listings of the same item in small stacks for the same prices, all of them closely matching the going rate of the items they're selling but marked up by 100x. If they accidentally added an extra zero then why would there be multiple of them, and why would they continue to list them week after week? And why would they consistently have the right amount of zeros to make the number "easily" mistaken for the going rate? If he was trying to save bank space then why are they in small stacks? The most plausible answer to all of these is that he is a scammer. And since we're not in a court of law then no more evidence is really necessary.

[azudelphi]

State of the thread.

[Darth_Wicked]

State of the thread.

 

Some nice real-world physics in there.

[AlienEyeTX]

State of the thread.

 

*Gold Star*

[Calsetes]

Since you seem to be incapable of grasping my point I'll simplify for you. It's possible for someone to mistake 333,333 for 333-ish credits. There's no hypotheticals here because it's already happened. Good, now you don't have to worry about perception and whether something is possible in game and all that, you can safely ignore it.

 

 

 

Sigh...I have stated multiple times that I do not presume to know 100% the seller's intent. But your and others' insistence that one can not be scammed on the GTN, and that this could not possibly be a scam is 100% false.

 

From what we know from the OP, or if you don't trust the OP then from the photo evidence another poster included, people are listing multiple listings of the same item in small stacks for the same prices, all of them closely matching the going rate of the items they're selling but marked up by 100x. If they accidentally added an extra zero then why would there be multiple of them, and why would they continue to list them week after week? And why would they consistently have the right amount of zeros to make the number "easily" mistaken for the going rate? If he was trying to save bank space then why are they in small stacks? The most plausible answer to all of these is that he is a scammer. And since we're not in a court of law then no more evidence is really necessary.

 

So failing to use the tools provided for an undesirable outcome means the person who didn't use those tools is not at fault? Why not declare me the PvP victor because I don't care to play PvP nor want to learn how to play, but want all the rewards from being the champion of the next season of ranked PvP matches.

 

That is how a scam is not possible in this game. Regardless of whatever someone was trying to do, there's at least five things he could have done to prevent this from happening.

[MillionsKNives]

No, a scam is deceptive. It represents something as something that it is not. In this case, the shady seller simply hoped that someone inattentive would come along, scan and not read closely and impatiently click all the 'yes' buttons.

 

'Scam' means something in particular. The term you're looking for is 'unethical.'

 

To wit: A used car dealer lies about the condition of a car that he's selling. That's a scam.

 

A used car dealer doesn't talk about the problems that the car has and the buyer doesn't bother asking. That's unethical. He's taking advantage of the buyer's gullibility and inattention to details.

 

And when you price it specifically so that an inattentive buyer would come along and mistake the price, that's deception. You can deceive in plain sight, the key is taking advantage of how people perceive things.

 

And has been pointed many, many times.... He may have thought that 333,333 was 333.333. But, the GTN would list such a price (per unit) as 333.33. So, it's really just carelessness on the buyer's part.

 

Most scams rely on people being careless.

 

Think of it like this: I'm playing in a baseball game. I'm the second baseman and "Bob" hits a double. I make a trowing motion toward the pitcher when the play is over (but keep the ball). "Bob" decides to lead-off and I walk over and tag him out. Did I scam him, or was he careless?

 

That's deception, but he didn't rid the player of money or possessions. So it's not a scam.

 

You fooled him, but he was also careless. Remember, scam and carelessness are not mutually exclusive. In fact they go together quite well.

 

Not a great example, but I hope you get the point. People gotta pay attention. "Bob" cannot argue to the umpire that it was an unfair play and go back to second. He's out and next time he has to pay better attention.

 

Of course people have to pay attention, that's how you avoid being scammed. Most of the time people get scammed because they weren't.

 

-snip-

 

Some really good points and that does clear things up.

[MillionsKNives]

So failing to use the tools provided for an undesirable outcome means the person who didn't use those tools is not at fault? Why not declare me the PvP victor because I don't care to play PvP nor want to learn how to play, but want all the rewards from being the champion of the next season of ranked PvP matches.

 

That is how a scam is not possible in this game. Regardless of whatever someone was trying to do, there's at least five things he could have done to prevent this from happening.

 

Just because the scam requires the person being scammed to be careless does not mean it's not a scam. I don't know how many times I've typed that in this thread.

[AlienEyeTX]

Most scams rely on people being careless.

 

True. Not denying that at all. And I might be willing to concede the point if 333.333 were a valid denomination in this game. But it isn't. Therefore, it's the buyer's mistake, not the seller's intent that is relevant here.

[Darth_Wicked]

True. Not denying that at all. And I might be willing to concede the point if 333.333 were a valid denomination in this game. But it isn't. Therefore, it's the buyer's mistake, not the seller's intent that is relevant here.

 

It's pointless.

 

The listing, for all its information - which was both accurate and correct - is absolutely irrelevant it would seem, while the intent of the seller - being unknowable by any of us - is all that matters.

 

Go figure.

[Calsetes]

It's pointless.

 

The listing, for all its information - which was both accurate and correct - is absolutely irrelevant it would seem, while the intent of the seller - being unknowable by any of us - is all that matters.

 

Go figure.

 

Yeah, I've pretty much reached the limit of what my sanity would allow response-wise, which is why I'm pretty much writing this thread off. 'Tis a sad day, indeed, whence a man who stubs his toe on a log blames the log, and people agree with him that 'twas the log's fault for being a road-blocking douche.

[scottythebod]

So failing to use the tools provided for an undesirable outcome means the person who didn't use those tools is not at fault? Why not declare me the PvP victor because I don't care to play PvP nor want to learn how to play, but want all the rewards from being the champion of the next season of ranked PvP matches.

 

That is how a scam is not possible in this game. Regardless of whatever someone was trying to do, there's at least five things he could have done to prevent this from happening.

Show me where the poster you quoted (or honestly anyone in the almost 60 page thread) said it wasn't the OP's fault.

 

You see you still aren't getting the point. BW/EA could put 5,000,000 ways to prevent the action from happening, that dopesn't mean you can't scam. It means it's going to be very difficult & you'll have to find someone incredibly gullible, but it can still happen. No system is ever scam proof as long as stupid people are out there.

 

The fact is if I attempt to trick you out of money, it's a scam. How many barriers BW/EA put up are inconsequential. If I list an item in a way that might make you think it's cheaper solely for the purpose of getting you to pay more for something than you normally would it's an attempted scam, regardless of anything the developers do.

 

You see there seem to be 2 discussions going on here. Myself & several others are pointing out that we believe the seller in this case is running a scam. You & several others seem to be arguing that it's the OP's own fault he lost his money. We all agree it's his fault, that doesn't mean the seller isn't scamming. This isn't a difficult concept, it is entirely possible (and honestly likely) that someone can be scammed & it also be their fault for falling it.

[Knorlac]

True. Not denying that at all. And I might be willing to concede the point if 333.333 were a valid denomination in this game. But it isn't. Therefore, it's the buyer's mistake, not the seller's intent that is relevant here.

 

But people are not always conscious of the fact that 333.333 is not possible. If you, before this thread, had shown me a photoshopped image of a GTN page with prices looking like that, I wouldn't have found that strange a bit in all likelihood.

[MillionsKNives]

True. Not denying that at all. And I might be willing to concede the point if 333.333 were a valid denomination in this game. But it isn't. Therefore, it's the buyer's mistake, not the seller's intent that is relevant here.

 

But again, we come back to what a player could reasonably believe the game would display and how that factors into the deception, not how the game necessarily will display. If all players knew at a subconscious level that the GTN will only display 333.33 as the unit price and that they were cautious enough to check that fact before purchasing there would be no scam. But there are people who don't know that and there are those who aren't cautious enough, which is why there are scammers who take advantage of that.

 

It's pointless.

 

The listing, for all its information - which was both accurate and correct - is absolutely irrelevant it would seem, while the intent of the seller - being unknowable by any of us - is all that matters.

 

Go figure.

 

It is irrelevant due to the fact that a person can still be tricked even if they are given all of the information, just because of the way it was given. The price on the GTN is being listed in such a way that a careless player could mistake it for a cheaper number.

 

So given that the deceit is possible and exists, all that is left to determine is whether it was intentional. No one here can say for sure, so all I have been trying to say is that I am willing to acknowledge that it was possible that the OP was scammed, and that I believe he was.

[Darth_Wicked]

It is irrelevant due to the fact that a person can still be tricked even if they are given all of the information, just because of the way it was given. The price on the GTN is being listed in such a way that a careless player could mistake it for a cheaper number.

 

No one was tricked.

 

The OP received via-mail EXACTLY what was listed on the GTN. He didn't bought five pieces of Turadium for 1.9m and received 5 pieces of Chanlon, did he?

 

No, he did not. That would be a scam, not this.

 

Again, absolutely no one was tricked. The OP can only blame himself for misreading / misinterpreting a listing.

 

Period.

 

Being clueless does NOT give anyone a free-pass to cry foul and claim he was scammed.

 

So given that the deceit is possible and exists, all that is left to determine is whether it was intentional. No one here can say for sure, so all I have been trying to say is that I am willing to acknowledge that it was possible that the OP was scammed, and that I believe he was.

 

There was no deceit.

 

Every single bit of info was listed on the GTN, from the price per unit, the material being sold to the total price. It comes down to the OP not paying enough attention to what he was buying, NOT that he was scammed.

 

You can't possibly accuse someone of scamming people when the buyer makes an educated purchase based on a listing which is 100% accurate, NOT to mention the FACT(!) that the buyer received EXACTLY what he payed for.

 

Again, your definition of "scam" is lacking.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[MillionsKNives]

No one was tricked.

 

The OP received via-mail EXACTLY what was listed on the GTN. He didn't bought five pieces of Turadium for 1.9m and received 5 pieces of Chanlon, did he?

 

No, he did not. That would be a scam, not this.

 

Again, absolutely no one was tricked. The OP can only blame himself for misreading / misinterpreting a listing.

 

Period.

 

Being clueless does NOT give anyone a free-pass to cry foul and claim he was scammed.

 

 

 

There was no deceit.

 

Every single bit of info was listed on the GTN, from the price per unit, the material being sold to the total price. It comes down to the OP not paying enough attention to what he was buying, NOT that he was scammed.

 

You can't possibly accuse someone of scamming people when the buyer makes an educated purchase based on a listing which is 100% accurate, NOT to mention the FACT(!) that the buyer received EXACTLY what he payed for.

 

Again, your definition of "scam" is lacking.

 

You keep saying that people can't be tricked if they're given all of the information, and yet you continue to be wrong. You can still scam people even if all of the information is available to them.

[Darth_Wicked]

You keep saying that people can't be tricked if they're given all of the information, and yet you continue to be wrong. You can still scam people even if all of the information is available to them.

 

This was no long-con. No Pyramid scheme as some people - foolishly one might add - claimed or brought up earlier.

 

This was just the OP not paying attention to what he was doing. Period.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[scottythebod]

It's pointless.

 

The listing, for all its information - which was both accurate and correct - is absolutely irrelevant it would seem, while the intent of the seller - being unknowable by any of us - is all that matters.

 

Go figure.

Yeah I really can't believe you have a hard time with this concept. Intent is all that matters. If I list something at a high price by accident that is clearly not a scam because my intent was to list at a lower price but I screwed up. If I accidentally list something to low & someone scoops it up it also isn't a scam as I the seller didn't intend to sell it that low & the buyer didn't intend to trick me into listing it for that price. If I intentionally list an item waaaay above going rate that is also not a scam. As my intent was not to fool you into buying it but to hope all the cheap options would dry up & you'd be forced to wait it out or buy my overpriced option.

 

However if I list something at a certain price solely for the reason of hoping someone would be careless enough to buy it without realizing what it actually costs it is a scam. Because my intent was to trick someone into buying it for more than they thought. It doesn't matter if the game makes it next to impossible to make the mistake, as long as the mistake is possible & I use that possibility to try to fool someone its a scam.

 

And as has already been pointed out to you anyone accused of anything can hide behind intent. If I shoot someone I can say it was an accident. Is it possible to 100% prove it wasn't an accident, no. So by your theory everyone should just get off because we can't prove what their intention was.

 

Again this isn't a difficult concept. If I'm trying to trick you it's a scam, if I make a mistake or just list something as high as possible with no attempt to deceive it isn't. I'm not getting why this is so difficult to grasp.

[Knorlac]

This was no long-con. No Pyramid scheme as some people - foolishly one might add - claimed or brought up earlier.

 

This was just the OP not paying attention to what he was doing. Period.

No one claimed that it was a pyramid scheme. The Pyramid scheme was only brought into the discussion to show that a scam can work even if all the information was given.

[MillionsKNives]

This was no long-con. No Pyramid scheme as some people - foolishly one might add - claimed or brought up earlier.

 

So those are the only qualifying types of scams that can work with the information available? Also, the person who brought up Pyramid schemes was responding to your incessant claim that someone can't be scammed if all of the information is available to them. They did not say that this was a Pyramid scheme, they said that Pyramid schemes are scams where you can still be scammed when you have all of the information available to you. Just another example of you having a hard time keeping up with the people you're responding to.

 

This was just the OP not paying attention to what he was doing. Period.

 

You are correct, he wasn't paying attention to what he was doing. That's why the scam worked.

[Beltane]

This thread is actually impressive. I have never seen people THIS determined to convince the other 'side' over something so petty.

 

People would rather personally insult other people's intelligence levels than admit trying to rip off other players is a really crappy thing to do anywhere in life, including in games. But hey, whatever makes you feel good.

 

My favorite part is how everyone who has fallen for this has admitted it is their fault, but nobody on the "opposing side" cares! They just keep telling the people who already said it was their fault, that it is their fault! So helpful!

 

It's more important to call people who just want to enjoy a video game stupid and defend dishonest players than to be decent to each other, I guess.

[Heat-Wave]

You see there seem to be 2 discussions going on here. Myself & several others are pointing out that we believe the seller in this case is running a scam. You & several others seem to be arguing that it's the OP's own fault he lost his money. We all agree it's his fault, that doesn't mean the seller isn't scamming. This isn't a difficult concept, it is entirely possible (and honestly likely) that someone can be scammed & it also be their fault for falling it.

 

^ This...

 

The person scammed by the Nigerians is at fault for falling for it, but that doesn't remove the responsibility of the scammers in the process.

 

Paying a higher price than one would like for something because someone listed it for 1m instead of 500k isn't a scam, that is buyers remorse.

 

But when the seller lists 4 of an item at millions of credits to make the per unit price look almost exactly like the actual lowest priced item and has it priced that way only to deceive, then that is wrong and at the very least, trickery.

 

I hold that if it happened in the real world and it ended up before a Judge, the seller would have some fault there and would be held accountable.

 

You can't just do whatever you want, as much as many people like to believe. There are rule and laws and of course at the end of the day, a Judge who has to issue a ruling, that you don't have to agree with, but you do have to abide.

[Heat-Wave]

No one was tricked.

 

I don't think the OP would agree with you. I don't think a Judge would either.

 

The OP received via-mail EXACTLY what was listed on the GTN. He didn't bought five pieces of Turadium for 1.9m and received 5 pieces of Chanlon, did he?

 

He did not receive the item he expected for the price he expected to pay. The seller specifically picked that price with the intent to trick the buyer.

 

In the real world, that is a scam all day long and wouldn't last 5 minutes in front of a competent Judge.

 

Being clueless does NOT give anyone a free-pass to cry foul and claim he was scammed.

 

You might be shocked to discover that it doesn't really work that way in real life. You cannot act in bad faith (as the seller did) and expect to get away with anything in life.

 

You'll be held to account when someone decides to call you on it.

[Darth_Wicked]

You are correct, he wasn't paying attention to what he was doing. That's why the scam worked.

 

Ohhhhh... This one is priceless. This one is truly priceless.

 

So if I see this chest on the GTN for 430k, while there are a dozen(!) more of them for 43k. Regardless, I still go for the most expensive one, most likely because I'm clueless and / or can't read a simple listing...

 

Does the above qualify to claim that I was scammed...?! Really...?!

Edited August 29, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Calsetes]

You see there seem to be 2 discussions going on here. Myself & several others are pointing out that we believe the seller in this case is running a scam. You & several others seem to be arguing that it's the OP's own fault he lost his money. We all agree it's his fault, that doesn't mean the seller isn't scamming. This isn't a difficult concept, it is entirely possible (and honestly likely) that someone can be scammed & it also be their fault for falling it.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that this is not a scam because:

 

-Everything was detailed in the listing

-It was not done in any sort of illegitimate manner (all prices were as marked and the math added up correctly)

-The buyer received exactly what was promised in the listing for the amount he had spent

 

Where the confusion is popping up is people saying it was the seller's intent to "scam" someone (which we can't determine with the data present) and that being the point of contention. Some people say it depends entirely on the seller's intent. Other people say the intent doesn't play a factor because of the process used to execute the transaction and the tools available to all people using the method of transaction on both ends.

 

It's mostly coming down to people assuming the seller was dishonest or had an ulterior motive and thus it being a "scam," and other people disputing that information either because we have no actual knowledge or evidence of his intent, or because the tools exist to prevent anything like this happening in the first place.

 

Without knowledge of intent, there is nothing else to support the claim of a scam. And while one can say that this one posting could be an indicator of intent, without other listings by said person in question showing that trend, it could easily be a mistyped number on the seller's part and not any sort of ulterior motive.

 

There is no evidence showing he had malicious intent with what's provided. Thus, not evidence of a scam taking place. Period.

[Darth_Wicked]

You might be shocked to discover that it doesn't really work that way in real life. You cannot act in bad faith (as the seller did) and expect to get away with anything in life.

 

You'll be held to account when someone decides to call you on it.

 

The intent does not matter.

 

There was no contact between the seller and the buyer. The former did NOT try to mislead or influence the buyer in any way prior the purchase by the buyer.

 

All that links the two of them is a listing that the OP ultimately FAILED to pay attention to.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Darth_Wicked