OK this is getting rather silly regarding hard mode Flashpoint GF

[Lord_of_Mu]

You're doing it wrong. The First rule of tanking is "You pull it, you tank it". If they can pull it, they can tank it. I only bother with AoE taunt if the jump monkey gets killed. He got what he was asking for but then it's my duty as tank to cover the rest of the team.

 

Recently I've started ignoring my kill order too. I mean, when I see the dps unleash on the strongest mob leaving the five trash ranged guys to aggro the healer, I'm going for those weak dudes and leaving the dps to fend for themselves. My priority is keeping the healer alive and since the dps are doing my job of tanking the strongest mob, I have to do theirs and clear the trash and stragglers.

 

No explanations, no "please follow kill order", no nothin'. They'll either learn by themselves or get killed in the process. Which is also a learning experience.

 

It's starting to happen. The bitterness is sinking in. Soon you'll be finding creative ways to kill the dps for no reason other than because you can.

[Jandi]

It's starting to happen. The bitterness is sinking in. Soon you'll be finding creative ways to kill the dps for no reason other than because you can.

 

Assassin/Shadow tank is the best for this. Can just cloak mid-fight and laugh.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Jandi

[AshlaBoga]

Assassin/Shadow tank is the best for this. Can just cloak mid-fight and laugh.

 

Oh man, I remember a run where I was tanking where the healer (who really prefers to dps) decided to refuse to heal our Mara dps just because he'd said he was 40 instead of 39. So throughout the entire HM FE the Mara had to try and take no damage during boss fights. They're good friends irl so it was more buddies being silly than anything else, but it was funny.

Edited July 16, 2014 by AshlaBoga

[Lord_of_Mu]

Assassin/Shadow tank is the best for this. Can just cloak mid-fight and laugh.

 

Once saw a shadow try something like that. Didn't work out so well for him either.

 

Anyway, I think we've seen quite a few posts that point towards to root of the issue. Some tanks don't like the gear challenges, others don't find their class to be as fun because of a lack of huge numbers. But largely it's because of the attitudes and behavior of so many players in the community.

 

A successful team isn't based on the size of your ego. It's based on your ability to work with a complete stranger for 20 to 30 minutes. Any action that makes their job easier will make the run far more smoother.

 

Initiating combat before the tank, breaking CC and not using your own threat reduction abilities aren't going to win you any friends. So, if you want to reduce queue times. Put your ego away, cool your attitude and use your brain.

[slafko]

It's starting to happen. The bitterness is sinking in. Soon you'll be finding creative ways to kill the dps for no reason other than because you can.

Oh, I'm *way* ahead of you there. I wiped a group of three guildies that were annoying me through entire Cademimu HM. It's usually a bad idea to annoy me and this is especially true when I'm tanking.

 

Ortol at 10%, three rockets firing and we have to move diagonally to the empty one. Force Speed ahead, single taunt for good measure, stop at middle with my back to the empty rocket. The team is catching up and they're behind Ortol. BAM! Ortol uses his AoE pushback. I end up safely where I need to be, annoying *****s are pushed back into the rocket and get burned alive by the flames.

 

Finished Ortol by myself, got my comms, added all three of them on ignore and left them dead. gg

[Darth_Wicked]

You're doing it wrong. The First rule of tanking is "You pull it, you tank it". If they can pull it, they can tank it. I only bother with AoE taunt if the jump monkey gets killed. He got what he was asking for but then it's my duty as tank to cover the rest of the team.

 

Recently I've started ignoring my kill order too. I mean, when I see the dps unleash on the strongest mob leaving the five trash ranged guys to aggro the healer, I'm going for those weak dudes and leaving the dps to fend for themselves. My priority is keeping the healer alive and since the dps are doing my job of tanking the strongest mob, I have to do theirs and clear the trash and stragglers.

 

No explanations, no "please follow kill order", no nothin'. They'll either learn by themselves or get killed in the process. Which is also a learning experience.

 

I have my own method.

 

First time around, I can be forgiving. I jump in afterwards, waste a AoE taunt but I am forgiving. I then urge, politely, the über awesome DPS to cool down and to allow me, the tank, to jump ahead first. If he doesn't oblige, I start /clubdance and watch as the healer tries to heal him, before he dies. Once he is dead, I jump in and with the help of the other DPS and healer, we take twice as long(!) - most likely - to kill whatever group we're fighting.

 

Three scenarios usually occur after that.

 

He gets the hint and stops doing that which is annoying.

He abandons the group even before we finish killing the group of enemies he decided to attack first.

He doesn't get at all and does it again, which by then he dies - AGAIN(!!!) - before being kicked from the group, since 9/10 people understand why a Vote Kick is being made and they happily oblige.

 

In the last two scenarios, the use of vulgarity by the über DPS is a common recurrence. Can't be avoided. Too sad.

[chillshock]

So why don't I tank (anymore/in this game)?

• I don't know anything about the instances. I'm a 'Founder' but have always been a PvP+solo PvE player. Beyond Black Talon / Esseless my experience is limited to "I think I've been there... once... in 2012".
  
• I have no idea about the gear and the stats and it's not really explained in game. If itemization is as bad as the dps one (after you get the gear you need to replace 50% of all mods and enhancements -.-) I'd totally fail.
  
• I hardly have reliably "predictable 60 minutes at a time" (that's why I solo and solo-queue) anymore and I HATE letting a group down.
  
• I'm on the countryside in #Neuland germany... Internet sucks. Disconnects are frequent and lagspikes up to 10k (due to massive loss on the long-range-wireless) that can last for hours are quite regular at times when people like me are at home and not at work. So I'm really happy if playtime and working internet meet. And can't trust it to remain that way for any extended amount of time.
  

 

I actually liked doing PUG in world of warcraft. Before x-server and groupfinder turned it into a cesspool of d*ckheads and egomaniacs. I tanked pugs for rewards afterwards ... but never with the same engagement. x-Server turned the groupmembers into 'mostly really dumb and/orarrogant bots' for me.

I love that there is no such thing as cross-server-queue in swtor and you actually get to meet the good people you found via random finder again -be it pvp or pve. So the above are really the only reasons I don't tank. And at least the "no guaranteed time or net " is not going away. And I know how much it sucks if a teammember - especially the tank - has to leave/lags out.

 

Most people I know don't tank due to reasons similar to mine or because they simply don't like it. (as in "don't like being the driver / the center of attention / the one who is watched so closely by everyone")

 

Why don't you tank? Or do you?

[Halinalle]

If they can pull it, they can tank it.

 

Even if I could tank it, I don't do it as DPS. For one simple reason: I like to focus on killing stuff without need to survive (avoiding mechanics lowers my dps already too much).

Edited July 16, 2014 by Halinalle

[Transcendent]

I THINK what might be interesting is something beyond gear. Like... well, yes a bit like the reward-bags wow introduced just not as... useless.

 

The least available class in solo-queue gets [big Bag Thankyou] and the second least available class gets [bag of Thankyou]:

 

• <level*1k> credits
  
• 1x Random [Dye module (binds on equip)]/[Dye module (binds on equip)]
  

The epic one additionally:

• 1x [Cost free Augmentation slot component mk-<level_adjusted> (Bound to legacy)]
  

 

Deserter Consequences: Abandoning a FP before it is finished locks you from these rewards for the rest of the day. You can still play and still get all the regular loot and comms, but the bonus is gone.

 

So at 55, if you complete an HM fp as a rare-class you get 55k credits, a free aug kit-9 and a chance for a dye module (*from the cartel packs). Might be enough to keep some tanks going for a while.

 

That's not a bad idea, the comms cap is most likely a reason why tanks quite simply do not need to do HM FP on a regular basis. A few OPS and you're there, so why bother with HM FP when you are;

 

1 - Comm capped (both Elite comms and Ultimate comms). It isn't exactly hard to reach the cap on either.

2 - Are geared enough to not need the gear that drops in HM Flashpoints.

 

Aside from that I hate tanking pug hm flashpoints purely because most DPS are complete and utter idiots. I rolled a tank and healer purely for the learning experience on how to improve my primary role as a DPS player.

 

Flip side, I've got a lot of players on my friend list who primarily tank or primarily heal, because they know the value in having a good DPS player who doesn't make their role completely suck. I always let the tank lead the fights, I don't question if we wait for a moment to carry on (knowing they have cooldowns they may need in a fight), my aggro drop is in constant use during fights. Basically as a DPS player, I don't pull aggro making the tank and healers job easier.

 

Yet I see so many DPS players who simply don't follow the hierarchy, yes they can do some amazing damage, not much use if everyone dies though

[BlackflameSeven]

This wouldn't really make more people queue for pug groups. People will just queue in guild/friend GF groups and get the same rewards. It really makes the whole "Give better rewards to tanks and healers" suggestions pointless if you can bypass pug's all together in GF by having a group already before queuing.

 

There's a way around that. WoW had a small incentive which could be expanded on. Once you had grouped with enough pugs - i.e. people that the GF assigned to you rather than were already grouped with, you got a pet. A pug

 

So it should be possible to actually give rewards to those who queue for a needed role alone, rather than cheating the concept. Still not convinced it would help though...

[chillshock]

A one time reward for doing it x times will just get done and you're back to now.

 

That's why I suggested something like the BoL-Free-Augment-Kit + some money - so a tank player gets stuff out of it, even if it's just for his style-gear and/or his alts and their style. I doubt that many dedicated players would ever run out of something to change.

[undiess]

It doesn't take a mind reader to know TANK GOES IN FIRST. Dummy.

 

That's 100% true on the boss, Genius, but not 100% true on the adds. IF the healer is supporting strong DPS, there should be no issue with the DPS taking out the trash. But Tanks get so pissy now that they won't even bother to say they had an issue. No one was struggling.

 

Had he said something, yes I would have held back. I was trying to get things done faster, knowing my class well. When that Tank left, NO ONE in the group had any issue with anything that happened because none of us even knew there was an issue. Tank wasn't pulling anything, simple trash mobs infront of us, we'll clear them out of the way.

 

The fact that more tanks are upset about this just shows how pissy you all are getting. I'd rather you not que as tank anymore because your experiences now magnify anything someone does to be the worst thing possible without seeing any reason.

 

I'll just que hybrid dps/tank and not have to worry about the majority of tanks in this thread that are so up in arms over Flashpoints.

Edited July 16, 2014 by undiess

[DarthTHC]

The lack of learning demonstrated by threads like this is astounding.

 

Every time a damage dealer posts a complaint about how long it takes to find groups or the lack of tanks, even if that's veiled as a "suggestion" to bribe tanks to queue, they always get the same answers:

 

1) Stop sucking as a damage dealer so you can get on the friend lists of good tanks and healers... or

 

2) Roll a tank and solve the problem for yourself because it really isn't that hard but bad players definitely make it that frustrating

 

But they still come right back around to bribes, even after however many pages this thread has gotten to (depends on your forum settings).

 

The cold, harsh reality is that good tanks don't need to queue for randoms, ever. Good tanks are in good guilds filled with good healers and good damage dealers. Good tanks can log in, type, "/g Anyone up for a hard mode?" and instantly fill a group. During the odd times they don't have enough guild mates on, they can easily go to their friend lists - people who have established a pattern of excellent behavior and competent performance - and draw from that.

 

Only as a last resort would a good tank ever need to queue for a random.

 

Good tanks don't need bribes. Good tanks do what they do because they enjoy it. The enjoyment is reward enough. They queue plenty with their guild mates or circle of friends, just not for randoms.

 

The reason they don't queue for randoms is because players they get grouped with make the experience unfun... fun... you know, that thing we're all supposed to be having in a game.

 

This brings us right back around to the answers above. If you don't want to play a tank, but you want to play parts of the game that require a tank, stop making those parts of the game unfun for the tank. If you impress a tank enough with your behavior and capability as a damage dealer, you will wind up on that tank's friend list... his go-to list of people to queue with when he gets sick of the garbage he finds in randoms.

 

Or, alternatively, if somehow the majority of really horribad damage dealers get this memo and improve to the point that randoms are fun rather than frustrating for tanks, maybe... just maybe... tanks will queue for them more.

 

You may now return to your normally scheduled session of trying to figure out what bribe it will take to get tanks to queue for randoms aside from players not sucking. I don't think a deformed womp rat pet is going to do it. I don't think extra commendations are going to do it. I don't think credits are going to do it (they could, but BioWare wouldn't set the price high enough to make it worth it). Good luck.

[chillshock]

Guild tanks aren't really the topic here. Yes they have a made life and it's fun and really rewarding in itself to run with guildies.

 

However the PUGs want tanks too. And even 'average' tanks or dedicated solo players who level as tank are often better than no tanks at all. However, there is currently nothing in place to reward them for being as tough as they are.

[lpope]

That's 100% true on the boss, Genius, but not 100% true on the adds. IF the healer is supporting strong DPS, there should be no issue with the DPS taking out the trash. But Tanks get so pissy now that they won't even bother to say they had an issue. No one was struggling.

 

Had he said something, yes I would have held back. I was trying to get things done faster, knowing my class well. When that Tank left, NO ONE in the group had any issue with anything that happened because none of us even knew there was an issue. Tank wasn't pulling anything, simple trash mobs infront of us, we'll clear them out of the way.

 

The fact that more tanks are upset about this just shows how pissy you all are getting. I'd rather you not que as tank anymore because your experiences now magnify anything someone does to be the worst thing possible without seeing any reason.

 

I'll just que hybrid dps/tank and not have to worry about the majority of tanks in this thread that are so up in arms over Flashpoints.

 

This attitude right here is what tanks get ticked off about. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean that you should even if it makes it marginally faster.

 

By jumping in first, you are basically saying "I only needed you for the pop, noob". It's disrespectful. Also, since it is a PUG GF, you can't guarantee the gear / ability of the tank and he may still be learning his class. By jumping in first you are essentially robbing the tank of an opportunity to learn how to grab aggro without using an AOE taunt.

 

If the tank constantly stares at the mobs for 20s before pulling, you might have a point but then you should say something in chat and / or initiate a vote kick.

[chillshock]

This attitude right here is what tanks get ticked off about. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean that you should even if it makes it marginally faster.

 

By jumping in first, you are basically saying "I only needed you for the pop, noob". It's disrespectful.

 

This. The tank wants to have fun. And your way of doing it faster actually does sound like "no fun for a tank". Why should the tank argue, when you KNOW you're making it less enjoyable for him? Why not do "Hey... <name of tank> and <name of heal>, is it ok for you if I go after the weak trash, or should I just wait for your pull?" *wait for answer* *if none given expect that default best-behaviour is hoped for else say* "Cool beans! I'll watch your ressources <name of heal>, promise! ;)" You'd be amazed how many tanks will say "meh, if the healers fine with it" and not throw a fit. Or go "No" or "-" - wich translates to "Oh god no, dont let this be one of those...".

 

Also: Instances runs fastes when a Tank who knows what he does and what the dds can do does the pulling and doesn't wait until the last weak is dead to pull the next group as long as the heal has ressources. Wich should be the case for most trash if the tank is the one with the aggro.I find those runs smooth and fast. As heal, as tank and as dps.

 

I bet no tank really does the whole "please behave begging" thing anymore. It's even more degrading than a dps pretending or showing off how he doesn't need a tank to get things done. No matter how true that is for weak trash, what do you expect the tank to do then? stand and wait? Or are you thinking he should work is a... off to get the mobs? Or maybe assist via his leet dps? Yep. I'd not argue with someone acting like you: votekick, if fails: quit. Or maybe I'd even just quit and requeue and be happy I realized that early that the group might be good, but ***** to be in as a tank.

[Halinalle]

However the PUGs want tanks too. And even 'average' tanks or dedicated solo players who level as tank are often better than no tanks at all. However, there is currently nothing in place to reward them for being as tough as they are.

 

You got that wrong.

Tanks are normal players who will react to bad behaviour, usually in not so good way.

 

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Remember that next time when you're about to say something bad to other group member.

 

So what you should have said is

"However, there is currently nothing in place to reward them for PUGing."

Edited July 16, 2014 by Halinalle

[chillshock]

Hehe. True. But I have some deep respect for tanks with the guts to queue solo.

 

However the laws of physics do not apply to human interaction. Don't believe me? Try argueing with my wife!

[DarthTHC]

Guild tanks aren't really the topic here. Yes they have a made life and it's fun and really rewarding in itself to run with guildies.

 

However the PUGs want tanks too. And even 'average' tanks or dedicated solo players who level as tank are often better than no tanks at all. However, there is currently nothing in place to reward them for being as tough as they are.

 

The reward for them is the same as the reward for every player: FUN.

 

I agree with you that that reward is currently not in place. The way to put that reward in place is for the rest of the players in the group to behave civilly and perform adequately. Not by giving tanks more commendations or credits or whatever. That's getting paid... compensated. Compensation is how your employer encourages you to work for them. Fun is how a game encourages you to play it.

 

Make flash points fun and tanks will come. Make them hell and, well, you'll keep getting these threads that keep telling you how to fix the problem that apparently you don't want to listen to, but that's not BioWare's problem to solve.

Edited July 16, 2014 by DarthTHC

[Kintosi]

The problem is tanks. No one wants to play them.

 

Actually, I LOVE tanking, to the point of where i think DPS classes are boring. I've been a tank since day -7 (pre-order release) and dont intend to change main classes. The problem is this game give tanks a relatively thankless job. No one lets them pull in HMs, instead the DPS rush in and die, resulting in wipes that are then blamed on the tank. in pvp, tanks rack up 200k+ protection and get laughed at for low dps after they saved the game multiple times guarding against half the opposing team solo for 45 seconds while backup arrives.

 

So, try thanking the tanks you do see. maybe add the good ones to your friends list and invite them into groups before you que. My medic friend and I get insta-queues all day long for whatever we decide to play. Give your local tanks some love, and you'll get some love back.

[Kantaso]

I am usually playing as DPS (scoundrel) so I like to surprise the healer when he is healing and suddenly his life is going South, I drop couple of heals on him and most of the time I also drop on the tank, so they go like oh thanks man. I keep my DPSing but always watch for the health of the rest of the crew, may take some more time but it is fun as heck.

[Halinalle]

Hehe. True. But I have some deep respect for tanks with the guts to queue solo.

 

Oh, you meant that toughness.

 

However the laws of physics do not apply to human interaction.

 

True but that one does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

Edited July 16, 2014 by Halinalle

[BuriDogshin]

By jumping in first, [DPS] are basically saying "I only needed you for the pop, noob". It's disrespectful.

I disagree. By jumping first, they may instead be saying "It's just two silvers and three weaks, I can solo this so let me save everyone some time." And for a 180-geared DPS in a HM FP, that's often true.

 

A lot of people want to "put the FLASH into FlashPoints" because they have other things to do or just enjoy rushing through it. So presuming they do not respect the tank is going a bit far. And besides, they are lowering the tank's repair bill ...

 

Unless the healer objects to it, even when tanking, I don't think who pulls the trash is an issue if no one dies.

 

Tanked my Vanguard in HM FPs for the first time yesterday, and it went well, even with that crazy-good DPS we drew who started half the trash fights. I really prefer my PT's Jet Leap to the Vanguard Charge, it is amazing how much difference the different animations make. And Rocket Punch is way cooler than the VG equivalent.

[BuriDogshin]

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Remember that next time when you're about to say something bad to other group member.

^^This. If there were fewer no-life adolescents (of whatever age) getting that cheap thrill of false superiority by yelling "you SUXXXXS" at every noob tank, and more people helping newbies of any role learn their role, their gear, and the op, we'd all be better off. But unfortunately, helping people takes more time and effort than being a jerk.

[Halinalle]

Unless the healer objects to it, even when tanking, I don't think who pulls the trash is an issue if no one dies.

 

They only learn that it is great way to force tank to move. And that's something we don't want them to learn.

 

They still have to learn.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Halinalle