If Sandbox MMO gaming is so bad, why does Minecraft have 10x the people SWTOR does?

[Deewe]

You crack me up.

 

There was an open world sandbox Star Wars MMORPG. It failed and is no more. I think the right lesson was learned there.

You mean the one with so many bugs and a suits that had no clue at all of what to do to make it successful?

 

No thank you, even if that game had more features at launch than this one now.

[TheBBP]

The true next MMO winner will be themed park sand box.

 

Because first you need to guide people into your game, especially the first hundreds hours, then you have to let them more with your game.

 

I am holding out hope that in the next few years that Disney will want an MMO set in their shiny new universe.

[MSchuyler]

OP claims Minecraft has 10X the people SWTOR does.

 

Please state the source of your Minecraft stats. Where did you get this information? Please provide a link to the reference.

 

Please state the source of your SWTOR stats. Where did you get this information? Please provide a link to the reference.

 

Until you can provide reliable and verifiable sources for your claims, you are talking about your tailpipe and are not credible.

[robertthebard]

Technically it failed after adding themepark elements, perhaps one could argue that change is what killed it. And Eve stands as an example of a game that was mostly sandbox and not only does it survive...it thrives.

 

The lesson I think is to learn here is there needs to be a mix. If you do sandbox you should have some themepark elements from launch, not as added elements later.

 

This game could have benefited from more sandbox-like features in before launch IMO.

 

...and if SWG was really all that good, it would have survived to. It didn't. In fact, even though I spent a lot of time looking for games to play while it was up and running, it never came up in any of my searches for popular games. So it was a niche game, with a moderate following that died out when it met any real "competition". Spin aside, the game is gone. That says more about it than anything anyone that actually knew anything about it/liked it can say. I played a Korean Grinder game that has outlived it, and really, suffers from worse management than most games I've played.

 

So the only real sandbox MMO that's still running is Eve, and while I've never actually played it, I had heard about before coming to these forums, unlike SWG, which I had never heard of until I came here, and then, it was too late, since it was closed down.

[LordArtemis]

OP claims Minecraft has 10X the people SWTOR does.

 

Please state the source of your Minecraft stats. Where did you get this information? Please provide a link to the reference.

 

Please state the source of your SWTOR stats. Where did you get this information? Please provide a link to the reference.

 

Until you can provide reliable and verifiable sources for your claims, you are talking about your tailpipe and are not credible.

 

Minecraft.net presents the most current game purchases and user data. This is pretty common knowledge. It appears that Eric Musco may have indicated this game now has 10 million registered users and 1 million regular players, 370k of which are subs.

 

That is a substantial increase in casual players, but a strong drop in regular players and subs if that is actually true...I can not confirm that statement supposedly made at one of the cantina events. Last solid report was over 2 million F2P players, just short of 500k subs.

 

I think GSF actually hurt the game in a substantial way. I expect it fell far short of expectations.

 

To my knowledge that is the best information available at the moment. Depending on how you read the current data, and if it is accurate, the OPs point could be seen as valid....though subjective naturally.

Edited June 20, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Sangrar]

Minecraft.net presents the most current game purchases and user data. This is pretty common knowledge. It appears that Eric Musco may have indicated this game now has 10 million registered users and 1 million regular players, 370k of which are subs.

 

That is a substantial increase in casual players, but a strong drop in regular players and subs if that is actually true...I can not confirm that statement supposedly made at one of the cantina events. Last solid report was over 2 million F2P players, just short of 500k subs.

 

I think GSF actually hurt the game in a substantial way. I expect it fell far short of expectations.

 

To my knowledge that is the best information available at the moment. Depending on how you read the current data, and if it is accurate, the OPs point could be seen as valid....though subjective naturally.

 

I don't know I personally still like gsf, and when I Am not running it some of my guildies are running it (they want to make credits). Either way though, while it wasn't all I hoped it was still pretty good in my opinion I like being a pilot in a squadron having a space battle

[Deewe]

I am holding out hope that in the next few years that Disney will want an MMO set in their shiny new universe.

Only thing | know is they teamed with EA to have an open world SW game in the making.

[LordArtemis]

...and if SWG was really all that good, it would have survived to. It didn't. In fact, even though I spent a lot of time looking for games to play while it was up and running, it never came up in any of my searches for popular games. So it was a niche game, with a moderate following that died out when it met any real "competition". Spin aside, the game is gone. That says more about it than anything anyone that actually knew anything about it/liked it can say. I played a Korean Grinder game that has outlived it, and really, suffers from worse management than most games I've played.

 

So the only real sandbox MMO that's still running is Eve, and while I've never actually played it, I had heard about before coming to these forums, unlike SWG, which I had never heard of until I came here, and then, it was too late, since it was closed down.

 

I understand what you are saying, and I am not saying I disagree, only that the actual events paint a different picture.

 

SWG was closed due to contract cancellation. Not due to lack of players to my knowledge. I believe it is generally accepted that the game had around 50k subs at close...not great, but not unlike many long running games like UO, AO, etc.

 

Also, with respect to sandboxes, your view is a common mistake IMO. Eve is not the only successful sandbox, depending on how you define sandbox and success.....

 

Eve Online, Second Life, Dragons Prophet, Darkfall, Archeage, Greed Monger, Pathfinder Online, Embers Of Caerus, EQ Next, Repopulation and Wurm Online to name some of them, with varying levels of success. Some are pure sandboxes, others are hybrids.

 

Also,

from some friends of ours that points out some information about the modern MMO sandbox market and upcoming sandbox games. Edited June 20, 2014 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

I don't know I personally still like gsf, and when I Am not running it some of my guildies are running it (they want to make credits). Either way though, while it wasn't all I hoped it was still pretty good in my opinion I like being a pilot in a squadron having a space battle

 

I agree it has it's merits, was reasonably well designed and is head and shoulders above the current PVE space combat feature. My point to say that perhaps it did not meet expectations is my assumption that many folks expected joystick support, a more skill based instead of gear based play system and on foot capital ship combat and point defense ala BF2.

 

The game did not deliver on these points and did not gain the kind of influx of players it could have had it met those expectations IMO.

[HelinCarnate]

Minecraft has so many people because of murder p o r n. .....ok not sure why **** is a bad word but whatever. Edited June 20, 2014 by HelinCarnate

[TheBBP]

Only thing | know is they teamed with EA to have an open world SW game in the making.

 

I hope that it is in the vein of Red Dead Redemption and Skyrim. Huge world. Many options.

[ghoul_drool]

I think GSF actually hurt the game in a substantial way. I expect it fell far short of expectations.

 

Partially, but I think what hurt the game more was the decision to release GSF three times over three patches.

[Halinalle]

Partially, but I think what hurt the game more was the decision to release GSF three times over three patches.

 

Are you saying they should remove all restrictions from Preferred and F2P?

Edited June 20, 2014 by Halinalle

[TUXs]

I think GSF actually hurt the game in a substantial way. I expect it fell far short of expectations.

Of course it did. It wasn't what people asked for. It wasn't what PvPers wanted and it sure as hell wasn't what PvEers wanted...it was, once again, what Bioware decided we wanted. I LOVE GSF...but queue times tell me I'm in a very tiny minority.

 

Add to that the fact that they rolled it out over 3 freaking "updates" and you can see where GSF hurt the game badly. I fear housing, which is also being rolled out in 3 stupid updates will do the same.

[Sangrar]

Pot5

 

/5char

 

yet oddly enough Bastion is the most populated pvp server right now (by a lot) with the best queues, so why would a representative come from a minority party on a lesser server

 

POT5 isn't even second most populated, Jung-ma and Darth Nihilus are beating you too

 

but hey at least you are better than TOFN and Jar'Kai Sword!

Edited June 20, 2014 by Sangrar

[TUXs]

yet oddly enough Bastion is the most populated pvp server right now (by a lot) with the best queues, so why would a representative come from a minority party on a lesser server

 

POT5 isn't even second most populated, Jung-ma and Darth Nihilus are beating you too

 

but hey at least you are better than TOFN and Jar'Kai Sword!

 

Thanks for the reminder of how dead our server is...rubbing it in helps how?

[Sangrar]

Thanks for the reminder of how dead our server is...rubbing it in helps how?

 

no, not trying to offend people from POT5, just saying that he should be mindful when he says a server which does not hold the majority of pvpers ingame anymore ( I will admit it once did, it used to get to heavy an hour or so before Bastion, but that was a bit of a while back) gives him representational authority over every pvper.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Sangrar

[Deewe]

yet oddly enough Bastion is the most populated pvp server right now (by a lot) with the best queues, so why would a representative come from a minority party on a lesser server

 

POT5 isn't even second most populated, Jung-ma and Darth Nihilus are beating you too

 

but hey at least you are better than TOFN and Jar'Kai Sword!

An yet both RP server have the biggest load, still there's no efforts at all to improve RPers life.

[Vandicus]

I am holding out hope that in the next few years that Disney will want an MMO set in their shiny new universe.

 

1. It will have to come from an EA studio(unless by few years you mean nearly a decade from now).

2. EA only has one MMO experienced studio now that Mythic has shut down.

 

Any Star Wars MMO made in this decade would consequently be something along the lines of SWTOR 2 made by Bioware. Under other circumstances, it'd probably take around 15 years for another Star Wars MMO to be made(most companies wouldn't develop a game prior to knowing that they'll be able to use an IP, and 5 years development time for an MMO wouldn't be unusual). If Bioware were to develop it, I still wouldn't expect it for another 8 years or so.

[Zoom_VI]

yet oddly enough Bastion is the most populated pvp server right now (by a lot) with the best queues, so why would a representative come from a minority party on a lesser server

 

POT5 isn't even second most populated, Jung-ma and Darth Nihilus are beating you too

 

but hey at least you are better than TOFN and Jar'Kai Sword!

 

uh, I hate to break it to you but Torstatus does not give accurate numbers for comparing populations. What it gives is a comparison between how often the servers are light, standard, heavy, etc. However since the threshold for when servers hit those is different for every sever. Torstatus's numbers are inaccurate for comparisons.

 

Also Jung-Ma is the least populated server in the game bar none. Its status on torstatus doesn't mean a thing.

[Kalfear]

I understand what you are saying, and I am not saying I disagree, only that the actual events paint a different picture.

 

SWG was closed due to contract cancellation. Not due to lack of players to my knowledge. I believe it is generally accepted that the game had around 50k subs at close...not great, but not unlike many long running games like UO, AO, etc.

 

Also, with respect to sandboxes, your view is a common mistake IMO. Eve is not the only successful sandbox, depending on how you define sandbox and success.....

 

.

 

But you skip facts to draw your anti theme park conclussions

 

Why were the theme park additions added?

 

Because SWG was suffering industry record subscriber loses and sony was willing to do anything, try anything to stop the bleeding.

 

The CU, Village, NGE all came about because the game was dieing and hemorrhaging subscriptions.

 

This was before F2P became a viable option so Sony was grasping at straws to stop the hemorrhaging of subscriptions.

 

And if we being factual the game was closed because Lucas Arts refused to renew the licence (they were invested in SW:TOR potential by that time).

 

The NGE had actually stopped the bleeding and recovered some of the previously lost accounts

Oh the sandbox fanatics will never admit that as it doesnt support their "version" of events.

But even though NGE stopped the bleeding its wasnt successful enough to turn SWG previous failures around.

 

The original sandbox design sold big at release but with in the first month was losing subs hand over feet at a percentage rate much higher then SW:TOR suffered (SW:TOR lost more because it had more, but Percentage wise SWG was the greater failure after first month)

 

We will see how Arch Age does,

I mean they just sent out a update bragging about Farming!

Sounds like a grand adventure!

 

Somehow I dont think Arch Age is going to change the market trend of dismissing sandbox MMORPGs.

 

Sandbox design will have its time but it will be when tech jumps forward a few steps and we into the VR stuff.

On a computer, sandbox just lacks focus and inspiration.

[LordArtemis]

But you skip facts to draw your anti theme park conclussions

 

Now that is just silly.

 

Why were the theme park additions added?

 

Because SWG was suffering industry record subscriber loses and sony was willing to do anything, try anything to stop the bleeding.

 

The CU, Village, NGE all came about because the game was dieing and hemorrhaging subscriptions.

 

This was before F2P became a viable option so Sony was grasping at straws to stop the hemorrhaging of subscriptions.

 

Well, you can certain postulate that if you wish, but instead I like to use facts....... And here they are.

Short version if you do not want to read this wall of text: Subs did not drop substantially until after the release of the CU, losses accelerated with the implementation of the NGE, and the changes were made hoping that the game would gain the kind of sub numbers that WoW had at the time.

 

Game peaked shortly after launch, mid 2003 at 300k subs.

Game lost 25k subs by early 2004, and hovered back and forth around 250k to 275k subs with the release of JTL late 2004. Not a sub hemorrhage by any definition of the word IMO.

The CU came in early 2005 and caused subs to plummet below 200k. Before then subs had stabilized around 250k.

Subs rebounded late 2005 to around 230k subs with the announcement of NGE, but then started a spiral to the bottom after a dismal reception.

By mid to late 2006 SWG had bled from 70k to 120k in subs, to just above 100k subs after the middle of the year. Losses slowed to a more stable population until late 2007, from where (it is assumed, since Sony stopped releasing sub numbers at this point) the losses continued at a steady rate until the game closed in 2012.

 

This information is irrefutable fact, released by SOE, at least up to late 2007. Now on to more facts.....

 

In June 2003, Star Wars Galaxies launched and attracted around 300,000 subscribers, a respectable showing back then.

A year later, World of Warcraft debuted and redefined "respectable." It is likely that both SOE and Lucasarts recognized this and wanted the same kind of numbers, based on comments made by actual developers. This is now confirmed by statements from John Smedley pertaining to reasons the CU was launched....NOT sub losses. At the time the game was stable.

 

Julio Torres is responsible for spreading the absolute myth that the game was hemorrhaging subs...This was completely false, and reported numbers prove that.

 

SWG's 2004 space expansion, Jump to Lightspeed, credits Torres as associate producer. "We tried a turn-based system but it was too slow. We had to change the engine to be more real-time," Torres told WarCry in December 2004. "Now we have to get the ground game to raise the bar. JtL should take us far, but if we don't raise the quality of the ground game, it won't carry us through into the future."

 

Players generally liked Jump to Lightspeed. But in April 2005 came the "Combat Upgrade," a major ground-game revamp - SOE called it a "rebalancing" - that emphasized fast action. Players considered it poorly implemented, buggy and slow. Sony Online CEO John Smedley addressed protesters in an official forum post that, significantly, talked in game design terms: "The Combat Upgrade was [crucial] for the long-term health of the game. In order to make the experience in SWG more diverse and to breathe new life into this game, we felt it was important for us to entirely overhaul the current system and to make sure that it's balanced properly. Are we finished? Not by a long shot ..."

 

Note, not to reverse losses, which did not exist in any appreciable amount at the time. Next came what most agree was the death blow, including John Smedley himself.

 

On November 3, 2005, SOE stunned players by announcing surprising "New Game Enhancements" that would go live on November 15. Why delay the announcement until two weeks before launch? "There were several other announcements related to the Star Wars franchise going on at the time," Torres told GameSpy, "so we wanted to make sure that something this big didn't get lost in the shuffle."

 

As WoW barreled toward 5 million subscribers, SOE launched SWG's Publish 25. The NGE replaced the combat system with a shooter-style twitch game, reduced the value of crafting and entertaining, and collapsed 34 professions into nine classes. Jedi Knight powers, once obtained only after torturous grinding, were now widely available. Creature Handlers and Bio-Engineers, previously stunted by the CU, vanished.

 

The player reaction was epic. It was a disaster unlike any seen at the time in an MMO.

 

At first, SOE's official line about the outcry was "Some gamers hate change"; then, later, "It's a small minority." Before long, though, the community's outrage drew unprecedented attention from The New York Times, The Washington Post, Wired and many others. The official line now sounded like, "We had to destroy the village to save it." John Blakely, SOE VP of Development, told the Post, "We knew we were going to sacrifice some players ... [but] as a Star Wars license, we should do a lot better than we have been doing." Smedley told GameSpot, "Straight sandbox games don't work. ... I think in the past, what we probably made was the Uncle Owen experience as opposed to the Luke experience. We needed to deliver more of the Star Wars heroic and epic feeling to the game."

 

There it is again: "fix the game." Torres told The New York Times, "Games should be fun." He told Gamespy, "We will continue to improve the game in areas wherever it is deemed needed to make the game fun and enjoyable for all players." It sounded like a threat.

 

In December 2005, in a damage-control interview on G4TV's "Attack of the Show," Torres dismissed subscriber losses as temporary: "We experienced that in the past when we made enhancements like these, and in general what's really interesting about that - a lot of [players] come back after they feel like, OK, they've vented their concerns."

 

And there are your actual facts, and the spin that created many of the myths that players believe to this day.

 

 

And if we being factual the game was closed because Lucas Arts refused to renew the licence (they were invested in SW:TOR potential by that time).

 

This is correct, but I would not go so far as to say they refused, since no official statement indicates that. But one could assume that much.

 

The NGE had actually stopped the bleeding and recovered some of the previously lost accounts

Oh the sandbox fanatics will never admit that as it doesnt support their "version" of events.

But even though NGE stopped the bleeding its wasnt successful enough to turn SWG previous failures around.

 

The above numbers and actual history proves otherwise. You are simply incorrect, as most folks are that continue to believe this fallacy. The game lost it's subs after the CU, not before. And the NGE caused a downward spiral to less than 1/3 the original subs.

 

The changes killed the game, changes brought about likely because SOE and Lucasarts wanted WoW like numbers.

 

SWG had multiple problems....part of those problems was in a pure sandbox design certainly. A hybrid would have been better IMO.

 

At any rate, I hope this was informative for you. You can confirm everything I have presented by executing a few cursory searches on the web.

 

I AM NOT anti-themepark. To state otherwise is just silly. Nor am I anti-sandbox. I like elements of both, which I have said MANY TIMES....but feel a mixture of both is best for any game.

 

I do not intentionally post information that is false and claim it is fact, nor do I post only those facts that support my view. I like to post the truth, even if it does not coincide with my view.

 

My post history stands in evidence.

Edited June 21, 2014 by LordArtemis

[ghoul_drool]

I think a hybrid would work best. The story and class missions provide fantastic leveling. Theme park elements provide repeatable entertainment along the way. Then at endgame, let players delve into sandbox features in earnest. This will take pressure from the content locusts off the dev team and provide everyone with an MMO where there's always something to do. Completely optional fluff shop on the side.

 

Of course this is really overly simplified but in essence, this sort of model will work.

Edited June 21, 2014 by ghoul_drool

[ThorgrimLutgen]

Speaking as someone who played the very 1st online roleplaying games when the internet was first available to the general public, I simply love, old style sandbox games.

 

Games with maybe 30 likeminded players only at any one time were good enough for me back then. Games like Neverwinter Nights (not to be confused with the garbage that is the current Neverwinter) offered players an amazing amount of customisation. Granted you needed to host a server yourself or play on someone elses, but those times were real fun.

 

Why? well because everyone who played those games did so for the same reasons. They grew up in the pre-computer age, generally playing the same games with pen and paper or lead soldiers. People had more imagination.

 

Game developers these days needs to cater for a wider audience and appeal to the lowest common denominator of gamer. They need to attract me, an old school RPG player at the same time as attract some school kid who is happy playing Grand Theft Auto.

 

Unfortunately, Sandbox styles that us oldies are all familiar with, will not work in the current market. People have no imagination these days. They want their content spoon fed to them in bite size pieces they can manage. Modern MMOs have to be designed to be so easy now it's actually quite pathetic to see. And in order to offer this style to the modern gamer, it has to be theme park.

 

Perhaps one day it will go full circle.

[OddballEasyEight]

Speaking as someone who played the very 1st online roleplaying games when the internet was first available to the general public, I simply love, old style sandbox games.

 

Games with maybe 30 likeminded players only at any one time were good enough for me back then. Games like Neverwinter Nights (not to be confused with the garbage that is the current Neverwinter) offered players an amazing amount of customisation. Granted you needed to host a server yourself or play on someone elses, but those times were real fun.

 

Why? well because everyone who played those games did so for the same reasons. They grew up in the pre-computer age, generally playing the same games with pen and paper or lead soldiers. People had more imagination.

 

Game developers these days needs to cater for a wider audience and appeal to the lowest common denominator of gamer. They need to attract me, an old school RPG player at the same time as attract some school kid who is happy playing Grand Theft Auto.

 

Unfortunately, Sandbox styles that us oldies are all familiar with, will not work in the current market. People have no imagination these days. They want their content spoon fed to them in bite size pieces they can manage. Modern MMOs have to be designed to be so easy now it's actually quite pathetic to see. And in order to offer this style to the modern gamer, it has to be theme park.

 

Perhaps one day it will go full circle.

 

I agree with all of that, me being of the "old generation" too (ah, the fond memories I have of playing neverwinter nights as my stone-dumb half-ogre following another adventurer group around saying "you purdy" to the only female in that group and valiantly charging into battle (and dying) to protect her... they ended up adopting me as their mascot despite me being alot lower level than them hehe)

 

That said, the OP is still wrong.

Edited June 21, 2014 by OddballEasyEight