Operative / Scoundrel Top 3 Answers

[Adovir]

Hardly. 2 free rolls every 10 secs >>> energy cost roll with no CD in arenas. Emergency medpac change may have prevented bad healers from prolonging a death via medpac spam, but buffed their hps above execute range.

 

Mercs may have gotten some nice buffs, but they're still significantly behind ops. No decent teams run a merc heals. Honestly, I think op heals should be nerfed to merc heal level, and sorc heals buffed up to that level.

 

Your thoughts not the entire game community and apparently not the devs either

[JediMasterSLC]

Your thoughts not the entire game community and apparently not the devs either

 

Be more specific please.

[Adovir]

Be more specific please.

 

If the devs really felt that way then why would it be this way since launch as you say? Also I know for a fact that not everyone think that the operatives should be nerfed to merc level or lower, these people aren't really forum posters but they do play the game and share the opinion that operatives are fine where they are healing wise.

[JediMasterSLC]

If the devs really felt that way then why would it be this way since launch as you say? Also I know for a fact that not everyone think that the operatives should be nerfed to merc level or lower, these people aren't really forum posters but they do play the game and share the opinion that operatives are fine where they are healing wise.

 

That doesn't make any sense. What would what be this way since launch? Op heaing OPness? That's not since launch: that's since 2.0. They've been the best healers since 1.2, but by a narrower margin than after 2.0, when they buffed it to high hell with the evasion CD talent and HoT cost reduction talent, among others. You do realize that just because op healing has been the best for so long, it doesn't mean that the devs are ok with that right? Can a dev confirm that their hypothetical goal is have all specs balanced? I mean it's common sense of course, but this guy.... I don't even.

[Adovir]

Now that you bring that up why hasn't any dev posted on this after the OP?

[JediMasterSLC]

Now that you bring that up why hasn't any dev posted on this after the OP?

 

Because they cba to do their job? I guess I'm just used to it by now.

[Adovir]

Sigh I was slightly hopeful

[BobaFaceroll]

It's not about being able to kill one..... how are you not getting this? It's about no serious team being able to consider any other class as a healer. Do you even ranked?

 

Everyone gets it. So what? Post it in...

 

- One of the eleventy billion threads in the PvP forums

- One of the threads where we suggested ways to increase defenses for Ops to try and make them viable. Removing Evasive Imperative from the healing tree has been suggested numerous time, by Ops and non-Ops. You are not breaking new ground...Bioware just hasn't wanted to do it.

- Your own thread, wherever you want to post it.

 

The 'Top 3 Answers' thread is simply the wrong thread for your thoughts to be discussed.

[Adovir]

So again let's all get back on the more important and actual reason for this thread and start posting ideas how to help make dps operatives more viable. I've already posted defensive ideas but here is a QoL that would be much appreciated, unbinding explosive probe for operatives. Since they have said time and time again that we are not supposed to use cover I don't think it's unreasonable to get one of our hardest hitting abilities unbound from cover

[snave]

So again let's all get back on the more important and actual reason for this thread and start posting ideas how to help make dps operatives more viable. I've already posted defensive ideas but here is a QoL that would be much appreciated, unbinding explosive probe for operatives. Since they have said time and time again that we are not supposed to use cover I don't think it's unreasonable to get one of our hardest hitting abilities unbound from cover

 

All of the collective ideas to make DPS operatives viable were laid out in the original questions along with all of the reasons why they needed to be looked in to. Seeing as that made the questions too complicated you'll have to excuse me for not having much faith that they're going to be looked in to now.

[Adovir]

I guess I'm a Gluten for punishment, why do we still try?

[Haystak]

Bout time you guys realize this.

 

Do the next rep a favor and make sure he doesnt spend his time writing a college thesis for the next Q&A.

 

Your Questions were awesome, as were the attachments that supported them, but....... the devs dont got time for "forum dwellers". Your questions that probably took you 10 plus combined hours to write were probably looked at for a total of 15 minutes before they generated the most ambiguous responses ever created.

 

They might as well have said,

"our programmers are slightly busy programming, and the developers, are sometimes caught developing stuff, expect more developing, and programming from our developers and programmers in the future".....maybe.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Haystak

[Lemmeron]

I think part of the problem we have is that so few people play DPS operatives, and even fewer post on the forums. Looking at the shadow 3 questions thread, they have 103 pages of posts, 40,000+ views and almost 250 replies. From a time/cost point of view, why would they bother with us ? The devs also seem much more involved communication wise with assassin/shadows too. Perhaps we can hope for some communication once we get similar posts and views on our class ? who knows

[Altheran]

I think part of the problem we have is that so few people play DPS operatives, and even fewer post on the forums. Looking at the shadow 3 questions thread, they have 103 pages of posts, 40,000+ views and almost 250 replies. From a time/cost point of view, why would they bother with us ? The devs also seem much more involved communication wise with assassin/shadows too. Perhaps we can hope for some communication once we get similar posts and views on our class ? who knows

 

Erm, what if you'd not compare a 8-month old sticked thread with a less than 4-day (normal) thread ?

 

As I am writing, this thread has 87 replies and 5 850 views for an approximate total of 3 days and 20h life span.

 

The last Shadow 3-answer thread, dating from May the 14th, has 92 replies and 7 475 views for an approximate total of 36 days and 19h life span.

The first reply after a full 4 days, the number of replies was the 72nd.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Altheran

[deanth]

Was talking with guild mates over our Q&A, we eventually all agreed that both the Questions and Answers were fine (we didn't get any crap such as H2F), as to being satisfied with the answers, well that's another story. The problem with our class Q&A was the timing, it came out just right in between 2.8 with Concealment/Scrapper buff, so any DPS questions, they will reiterate the buffs and look at the metrics, changes in the next few updates are too far ahead to talk about. In some sense, they seem to be dodging the questions, especially with Lethality/Dirty Fighting.

 

There is also a huge gap between these Q&As, the last Top 3 Answers for our class were 9 months ago, back in Sept 2013. I feel these Q&As are more or less pointless. The devs probably do browse through and take in suggestions, but the lack of communication is disappointing.

 

Looks like we're going to have to wait for 3.0 to see for any substantial changes, which is probably going to be the end of this year/beginning of next.

Edited June 20, 2014 by deanth

[Cordorian]

Was talking with guild mates over our Q&A, we eventually all agreed that both the Questions and Answers were fine (we didn't get any crap such as H2F), as to being satisfied with the answers, well that's another story. The problem with our class Q&A was the timing, it came out just right in between 2.8 with Concealment/Scrapper buff, so any DPS questions, they will reiterate the buffs and look at the metrics, changes in the next few updates are too far ahead to talk about. In some sense, they seem to be dodging the questions, especially with Lethality/Dirty Fighting.

 

There is also a huge gap between these Q&As, the last Top 3 Answers for our class were 9 months ago, back in Sept 2013. I feel these Q&As are more or less pointless. The devs probably do browse through and take in suggestions, but the lack of communication is disappointing.

 

Looks like we're going to have to wait for 3.0 to see for any substantial changes, which is probably going to be the end of this year/beginning of next.

 

They Q&A for sure are pointless, I think you can see that with marauder questions beautifully (with Snaves as well, i just take marauder because some of the stuff was just ridiculous). Apparently marauders arent in such a bad place, but there are some quality of life issue in carnage when it comes to pvp and the gudarz made a good suggestion how that could be remedied without being overpowered (gore a stacking debuff, to not be consistently be stunned out of your damage). Completely ignored. Also it was mentioned question what to do with Undying rage since nerf considering that their argument that it synergizes well with healing, did back then apply to snipers evasion (which fortunately never went live) and now Juggs Enraged defense (it is basically heal2full without a healer) as well, but they just reiterated.

With regards to Anni, marauders wanted the ramp up to be shortend or better means to stay no target but instead go the damage buff (sense?) I dont remember anyone asking for dot protection but that seems there answer for any dotspec in this game (lethality with dot protection would actually be OP )

 

Similarly assassins proposed a change that would increase deception sustain, but min maxed so that they burst would stay roughly the same, making them pve viable (i dont remember exactly what was proposed, but there was good theory crafting behind it, some solid numbers and i would screw over pvp balance)... completely ignored.

Well I can kind of see why they removed the hidden strike knockdown (although i dont agree with the change), but i will never really understand why spike was turned from a knockdown into stun.....it makes no sense because it doesnt really change anything (and just like hidden strike now it just looks retarded)

 

And lastly back to operatives... we always asked for me defense for the dps tree, but they buff the damage instead.

 

They just do what they want ignoring most of the feedback, and usually they take a pretty lazy approach (DoT Protection)

[Heal-To-Full]

Really? Take a look at Torparse: 4 out of the 8 top parses on a dummy come from Ops / Scoundrels. (And most of the others are Gunslinges / Snipers using Scatter Bombs

Exactly - all DPS figures that can never be reproduced in any environment whatsoever other than dummy parsing.

Scatter roll parsing relies on a wall to bang against and a harmless dummy that won't kill you in one hit.

Operative parsing requires wasting your cloak to keep up damage, something you would never, ever do in PvE or in PvP.

[Cordorian]

Exactly - all DPS figures that can never be reproduced in any environment whatsoever other than dummy parsing.

Scatter roll parsing relies on a wall to bang against and a harmless dummy that won't kill you in one hit.

Operative parsing requires wasting your cloak to keep up damage, something you would never, ever do in PvE or in PvP.

 

well, yes and no, i mean if it is a 1v1 at an off node and you are within finish range it might be worth it... and in PvE in group content you can do it as well, if you roughly can be sure stealth rez isnt needed you are not dotted up and massive AoE flying about.

[Adovir]

well, yes and no, i mean if it is a 1v1 at an off node and you are within finish range it might be worth it... and in PvE in group content you can do it as well, if you roughly can be sure stealth rez isnt needed you are not dotted up and massive AoE flying about.

 

Well also you don't have any movement an you have no mechanics that you need to worry about you're given free reign to just beat away getting flawless attack routines and not having to worry about positional requirements and any other things that you need to worry about in a real situation. For PVP you have to worry about stuns kiting terrible positional requirements roots slows ect so take your dummy parses with a grain of salt.

[Heal-To-Full]

well, yes and no, i mean if it is a 1v1 at an off node and you are within finish range it might be worth it... and in PvE in group content you can do it as well, if you roughly can be sure stealth rez isnt needed you are not dotted up and massive AoE flying about.

If you are within execute range, to save yourself from getting killed.

Otherwise, cloak screen is too valuable to spend. As a node defender it's a guaranteed 15 seconds of stalling.

 

In PvE it's only usable in the easiest of content, anywhere else the extra 3,000 damage you'll do is worth nothing against even a small chance that you'll need to stealth rez a DPS who will do extra 3,000 per second for 2 minutes, for 300,000 total. Plus, in PvE you have to do a lot of positioning to be able to do these backstabs.

 

It's why Deception Assassin manages to be simultaneously a top dog in PvP and a total joke in PvE. Their best dummy damage is just 3% below the mean, it's not much, it's nothing, better gear or better skill will take care of it no problem. But the thing is... you can't do that dummy damage in a real boss fight. So a deception sin will be 30% behind, and an average one even worse, though in no small part because a good player won't even try to bring one to PvE, they'll have an alt for it*.

 

Operatives have the same problem. While they aren't quite as low on real damage, the difference is that everyone who runs deception sins runs them for PvP, where they dominate; operatives don't get to even be competitive.

 

 

 

* There was one clicker who was allowed, thanks to the rest being good enough, to bring a deception sin to top PvE content, in which he proceeded to badmouth others every time he died. But then I said "good players".

Edited June 21, 2014 by Heal-To-Full

[Tamanous]

Exactly - all DPS figures that can never be reproduced in any environment whatsoever other than dummy parsing.

Scatter roll parsing relies on a wall to bang against and a harmless dummy that won't kill you in one hit.

Operative parsing requires wasting your cloak to keep up damage, something you would never, ever do in PvE or in PvP.

 

Eng snipers can easily maximize scatter bombs on large target bosses. No wall needed. Of course one can simply roll bang in place if the player knows how to do it on any size target. I just returned to game and haven't tested if it was nerfed or not though.

 

I always use cloak for dps purposes on raid bosses. What else would you use it for? Watch your aggro.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Tamanous

[Heal-To-Full]

Of course one can simply roll bang in place if the player knows how to do it on any size target. I just returned to game and haven't tested if it was nerfed or not though.

It works. I can do it. But it's difficult to do (barring macros, and even with them you're far from a 100% success rate), and it still sacrifices range and mobility that snipers otherwise have.

 

Glitch parses just aren't representative of actual class performance. They come, for every class, at the expense of the key advantages of that class, at the expense of what everyone perceives as something that class is supposed to have.

 

Is Sniper a high utility, fast target switching, medium mobility, long range, AOE resistant class?

Yes.

It is balanced this way, seeing how Bioware now admits that utility is traded for DPS and vice versa.

 

Is a Scatter Bomb Sniper a high utility, medium mobility, long range, AOE resistant character?

No.

He has half the utility, is locked on one target, minimally mobile, stuck in melee range, has to eat AOE and has no reduction for it. It's a playable spec, but it's a fragile low utility spec.

 

Sadly, sniper damage seems to be balanced based on an average of scatter spec and raid specs, rather than separately for scatter (glass cannon stuck in melee range) and raid specs.

[Adovir]

From the class question brainstorm

 

 

Weakening Blast now generates a Tactical Advantage to allow lethality to periodically generate a TA from distance

 

10% stacking damage reduction based on damage received for Lethality

 

Evasive Imperative / Chem-resistant Inlays to be moved from the Medicine tree in to Lethality / Concealment

 

The free Kolto Infusion for lethality to be used without triggering the GCD

 

Incorporate the 20% damage reduction in to the “Ghost” talent (6 second duration)

 

Infiltrate is virtually useless in a PvE environment, by adding something else to the field such as +X% crit / damage / healing it would instantly provide us with some real raid utility and also make this ability relevant (this also applies somewhat to PvP)

 

Cloaking screen cooldown to decrease as damage is taken

 

Evasive Imperative / Chem-resistant Inlays to be moved from the Medicine tree in to Lethality / Concealment

 

Countermeasures (or other ability) now also decreases stun duration by 50%, can be used whilst stunned

 

Revitalizers able to be used during stuns

 

It was stated that operatives were never intended to use cover as a mechanic, if this is the case why do we still have abilities tied in to using cover? It seems to make no sense and removing explosive probe's crouch requirement would certainly make gameplay "smoother".

 

The removal of roll cleansing DOTs now means in order to successful use cloaking screen we have to also use evasion, would it be possible to build a cleanse in to cloaking screen; once again only available to the DPS trees, or do you feel the need to use both cool downs is appropriate?

 

Poor hit box detection in PvP and mobs auto facing us in PvE means backstab is very difficult to pull off, especially while levelling. It seems you've acknowledged this to some extent with recent changes but would it be possible to either remove the positional requirement via talents or fix your game engine to properly reflect positions of players during PvP combat?

 

Lethality is still suffering from the same RNG that you removed from Concealment with the changes to Laceration. This could be addressed by giving weakening blast 100% proc rate and / or allowing TA’s to be generated via Sever Tendon / Overload shot (with an internal cool down).

 

This was also asked previously but seemingly ignored. Our set bonuses are virtually useless. You previously stated that set bonuses were only meant to provide a small damage increase but our set bonuses do not even provide this.

[Liquor]

Yeah, it's quite obvious that these questions and answers did nothing but create a rift between the players and devs. Or at least it has expanded this rift in how we see Operative gameplay and the future.

 

A few of us saw this ahead of time but were pushed to the side.

 

Most DPS spec Operatives have rolled a different class while a few stayed and are healers now for PvP and PvE.

Those that stayed concealment work hard at being effective in PvP and PvE. Still very few are effective. There are less DPS spec operatives around. Too many Sorc, sin, snipers and mercs. It's an AOE and dot race. Zero tactical precision.

 

So what's the point anymore? Only you can answer that.

[diadox]

These class rep questions really are pointless when there is no follow-up back-and-forth between players and devs. Dunno what I was expecting though.