Madness Sins /Balance Shadows

[sithBracer]

This right here. Thread over. He played against some of the better/best players on the server with his average team and they happened to have madness sins. But then the madness sins switched to Leth ops and his team still lost and then quit queing. Has nothing to do with madness sins.

 

He played against wakalord, gudarzz and midian or something probably.

[AxeDragoneth]

^ Correct.

 

Hasn't anyone on this forum discovered that ZoomZy is a master RP'er who can't be beaten in a forum war?

He'll counter everything you have to say with the same circular logic and "no you're wrong."

 

Not agreeing with anything anyone said, just pointing that out.

Everyone needs to L2P.

/thread

[Aetideus]

You think marauders are squishier than sins, that's interesting let's do a comparison:

 

Cloak vs camo: about the same. In madness spec, your dots will keep you in combat so no sap seething. Camo is probably better than madness cloak.

Undying vs shroud: a fair contest after the nerf, both prevent major damage and both have big drawbacks.

Deflection vs saber ward: no contest, saber ward is superior.

Self regen: both classes have several sources, sins probably a bit better here though.

Armor: maras have way more armor.

Range: same range essentially

Utility/cc: maras have an aoe mezz, which is superior to having a lot of single target cc IMO. You could argue sins are close or have a minor advantage even though. Maras definitely have more team utility though, while sins have phase walk.

 

Looks about even to me if not sins being worse off in survivability. Honestly if anything all the maras are finally getting a taste of what sins have been dealing with since release.

 

lol. 600k dmg and 450k protection with Infiltration Shadow with DPS gear and Combat stance. Maras are way squishier.

[sithBracer]

lol. 600k dmg and 450k protection with Infiltration Shadow with DPS gear and Combat stance. Maras are way squishier.

 

If you are in combat stance with a shield then you are not a dps, you are a tank/hybrid. You will be tankier but your damage will also be lower, plus you will be barred from certain moves that require shadow stance. Your dps should be much higher than your protection though, unless you were a tank healer combo where the healer kept being focused by undergeared players. I usually get 2:1 at least when I use a 22/21/1 spec.

 

Either way both are very good classes and fun to play, both are viable in group ranked and the toilet that is solo ranked. Peopled stopped being good at playing sentinel as soon as smash was nerfed because they are not good players. I played with many amazing carnage marauders pre and post nerf. Those amazing players stayed amazing, the smash monkeys are the ones who suffered from the nerf and immediately rerolled juggernaut.

[foxmob]

the highest damaging moves require the sin to be in 4m range (the setup of CrD and assassinate) and his armor is the weakest in the game. It's not the sin's fault that people ignore him and let him free cast even though he is 4m away.

 

dunno what matches were like for you over s1 and s2, but in my experience, the first burn target was the easiest to drop. if their strongest player happens to be a burnable class, then we'd start with him but...yeah. the only saving grace any sin has had in my memory is that there's about 4 other specs you could drop first. (any unguarded healer, unguarded merc, sniper, op...and sin )

 

game is stupid w/o all three roles atm. too many easy kills just by class.

Edited June 16, 2014 by foxmob

[JP_Legatus]

dunno what matches were like for you over s1 and s2, but in my experience, the first burn target was the easiest to drop. if their strongest player happens to be a burnable class, then we'd start with him but...yeah. the only saving grace any sin has had in my memory is that there's about 4 other specs you could drop first. (any unguarded healer, unguarded merc, sniper, op...and sin )

 

game is stupid w/o all three roles atm. too many easy kills just by class.

 

Well in the case of deception sins their dps is so low you never needed to target them anyways. You could easily survive the opener with a hard stun or a single taunt and ignore him for the rest of the game. If the dps were noteworthy at all they'd focus the deception sin to shut him down, it just wasn't ever necessary. The "sick burst" isn't all that spectacular and comes up to 3 times in a full game.

Edited June 16, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[sithBracer]

Well in the case of deception sins their dps is so low you never needed to target them anyways. You could easily survive the opener with a hard stun or a single taunt and ignore him for the rest of the game. If the dps were noteworthy at all they'd focus the deception sin to shut him down, it just wasn't ever necessary. The "sick burst" isn't all that spectacular and comes up to 3 times in a full game.

 

Deception is an ok spec for hard switching, but horrible for tank tunnel (or anything tunnel). Although they only have a finite set semi-auto crits they can still burst with their regular crit percentage (which should be at 25). 1/4 mauls will take 7-10k, 1/4 shocks will take a decent amount of damage + any extra damage from the secondary shock, so it won't happen only 3 times in one game. I had an arena (a reg) where I was against 3 healers and I was able to burst them down due to simply RNG (first maul took 10k against a sorc, second took 8k against an op). The recklessness bursts should be timed carefully on a hard switch and not blown on a guarded target. This class/spec is viable for group ranked, but very overrated. Needs to be coordinated very carefully otherwise you waste what could've been an opportunity for a kill.

[JP_Legatus]

Deception is an ok spec for hard switching, but horrible for tank tunnel (or anything tunnel). Although they only have a finite set semi-auto crits they can still burst with their regular crit percentage (which should be at 25). 1/4 mauls will take 7-10k, 1/4 shocks will take a decent amount of damage + any extra damage from the secondary shock, so it won't happen only 3 times in one game. I had an arena (a reg) where I was against 3 healers and I was able to burst them down due to simply RNG (first maul took 10k against a sorc, second took 8k against an op). The recklessness bursts should be timed carefully on a hard switch and not blown on a guarded target. This class/spec is viable for group ranked, but very overrated. Needs to be coordinated very carefully otherwise you waste what could've been an opportunity for a kill.

 

We are not going to agree on this issue. I've seen decception sins try and played it myself for a long damn time. It doesn't work. Maybe in solo, idk, definitely not in group.

Edited June 16, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[aq_swagga]

if you guys would have run some team ranked and seeing them do 1800dps-2500dps you would know what I'm talking about........

 

The sustained damage is really high, but there is no real burst, unless you can time a death field and assassinate back to back (assuming they both crit). Healing through a madness sin's DPS is not very hard, al though I do admit double madness sins would definitely give the healer a hard time, but not nearly as much as burst comps. I wouldn't say it's OP considering the current meta is burst, and operative heals are designed to do well against dot classes anyways, as long as you play it right.

[JP_Legatus]

Lol, this thread is a joke. Edited June 17, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[Aetideus]

If you are in combat stance with a shield then you are not a dps, you are a tank/hybrid. You will be tankier but your damage will also be lower, plus you will be barred from certain moves that require shadow stance. Your dps should be much higher than your protection though, unless you were a tank healer combo where the healer kept being focused by undergeared players. I usually get 2:1 at least when I use a 22/21/1 spec.

 

Either way both are very good classes and fun to play, both are viable in group ranked and the toilet that is solo ranked. Peopled stopped being good at playing sentinel as soon as smash was nerfed because they are not good players. I played with many amazing carnage marauders pre and post nerf. Those amazing players stayed amazing, the smash monkeys are the ones who suffered from the nerf and immediately rerolled juggernaut.

 

Well, 2-31-13 with full dps gear is dps spec even with shield imo. Yet the dcds/ interupts of infiltration and fade are great for tanking. Cannot support high competitive tanking on RWZ though.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Aetideus

[AxeDragoneth]

Lol, this thread is a joke.

/5char

[foxmob]

Well in the case of deception sins their dps is so low you never needed to target them anyways. You could easily survive the opener with a hard stun or a single taunt and ignore him for the rest of the game. If the dps were noteworthy at all they'd focus the deception sin to shut him down, it just wasn't ever necessary. The "sick burst" isn't all that spectacular and comes up to 3 times in a full game.

 

as my guild left when 8v8's were trashcan'd and I had no desire to queue against the same 2 arena teams every night, I wouldn't know about 4m, but I theoretically agree that the existence of a guard and healer would render a deception fairly useless outside of opening burst or maybe something on a restealth.

 

in solo, they're everywhere. they wreck havoc on ranged. you'll often find matches where two of them open together on an unguarded merc/sniper and global him.

 

I'd argue it's best to clear any opponent's piece off the board as quickly as possible no matter how bad he is or how gimped his spec is. just as a general rule. there are obvious exceptions such as a very good VG or Mara or something...even though they may have a scrapper or madsin. honestly, the only matches that don't go the way of the team who strikes first blood are when the other team has juggs healing to full or if a stealth escapes in the heat of battle and is allowed to heal to full. :2cents:

[nitroyoshi]

i wanted this 2 yrs ago but now wildstar is out qq

[DarrelK]

The SWTOR pvp world has already forgotten Roudy?

 

I just can't help but fall in hysterical laughter when I read this bull**** about deception being bad for team ranked. If it doesn't work, then you don't know how to make it work.

[sithBracer]

The SWTOR pvp world has already forgotten Roudy?

 

I just can't help but fall in hysterical laughter when I read this bull**** about deception being bad for team ranked. If it doesn't work, then you don't know how to make it work.

 

We remember him and DRAMA. But he was honestly able to make almost any spec work. The only 2 specs he deemed as unviable for team ranked was pyro merc and madness sin (pre-2.8). I was surprised he included marksmanship sniper in there, but he specifically answered me saying that it was very viable.

 

Anyway, I think this spec is viable in team ranked, just requires a lot more coordination, as the penalty for screwing up is losing your semi-auto-crits for a minute as well as losing your opening defensive buff.

[JP_Legatus]

We remember him and DRAMA. But he was honestly able to make almost any spec work. The only 2 specs he deemed as unviable for team ranked was pyro merc and madness sin (pre-2.8). I was surprised he included marksmanship sniper in there, but he specifically answered me saying that it was very viable.

 

Anyway, I think this spec is viable in team ranked, just requires a lot more coordination, as the penalty for screwing up is losing your semi-auto-crits for a minute as well as losing your opening defensive buff.

 

Deception is definitely not viable in team rated. It's a fact of life. I have put together a video demonstrating why this is, hope this clears things up for everyone.

 

Edited June 17, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[AlrikFassbauer]

We remember him and DRAMA. But he was honestly able to make almost any spec work. The only 2 specs he deemed as unviable for team ranked was pyro merc and madness sin (pre-2.8). I was surprised he included marksmanship sniper in there, but he specifically answered me saying that it was very viable.

 

In Ranked this might be true, but I don't believe that he is a good role model for all of the other thousands of casuals because they will NEVER be able to reach SUCH a shigh skill - even if they tried. Bads will remain bads and they can never improve because they just can't.

 

For Ranked with all of its illustrious figures, he might well be a good role model. But Ranked is 0,1 or so % of the WHOLE SWTOR player base ...

 

So, I don't care what people say who have an IQ of 140 on how to cook potatos.. I rather listen to people with an IQ of half of that.

Edited June 17, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[cycao]

In Ranked this might be true, but I don't believe that he is a good role model for all of the other thousands of casuals because they will NEVER be able to reach SUCH a shigh skill - even if they tried. Bads will remain bads and they can never improve because they just can't.

 

For Ranked with all of its illustrious figures, he might well be a good role model. But Ranked is 0,1 or so % of the WHOLE SWTOR player base ...

 

So, I don't care what people say who have an IQ of 140 on how to cook potatos.. I rather listen to people with an IQ of half of that.

 

It's early but this might well be the post of the week...Possibly the month.

[foxmob]

I think english is his 2nd language. go easy.

[Icykill_]

Deception is definitely not viable in team rated. It's a fact of life. I have put together a video demonstrating why this is, hope this clears things up for everyone.

 

 

Lol... That just means you don't know how to play that build

[JP_Legatus]

Lol... That just means you don't know how to play that build

 

I'm not sure how you reached this conclusion after watching the video where I clearly demonstrate deception is not viable for ranked. Maybe you could elaborate on why you think that is. Did you see the flowcharts in the video? There is clearly an issue with mass awareness is what it looks like.

Edited June 18, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[TheCourier-]

I've seen two players use deception spec in ranked (Shinarika and Roudy), and both of them did well with the spec. It is ranked viable, but it's not the best ranked spec.

[sithBracer]

I'm not sure how you reached this conclusion after watching the video where I clearly demonstrate deception is not viable for ranked. Maybe you could elaborate on why you think that is. Did you see the flowcharts in the video? There is clearly an issue with mass awareness is what it looks like.

 

I question the flowcharts that you put up, because according to them only 70% of the people know that the bird is actually the word, while there has been no control group study about whether or not the bird is actually the word.

[MidichIorian]

Roudy's opinion was based on team ranked with one of the best healers and possibly the best tank. I can assure you that his "viable" list would have been much shorter if he had queued solo or against a team of his own caliber. Edited June 18, 2014 by MidichIorian