Idea to improve Sentinel/Mara without making them OP

[chosonman]

As we all know Mara/Sentinels are a paper doll right now in PVP warzones. While I agree for the there are l2p issues with some players the fact remains they are a huge crutch in 8v8 warzones and need support to be viable. But making them as strong as Guardian/Jugs is not the answer. I think making them fit certain role (like Sin/Shadow, healer, tank) on the battlefield would server a greater purpose. Right now they are just DPS... what does that mean? They are supposed to put out high amounts of damage. Other classes do that too. Snipers are designed to put out damage from far away as damage dealing supporters. Same goes for Commandos who can fill the role of off healers as well. What Sentinel/Mara's need is a role that fits their style. They should have the ability to break through shielded and guarded players. Their role should be to break through the intricate defenses of the opposing side in order to kill the VIPs (ie healers, guarded players) As of now they merely do damage. That is all. No defined roll. By adding the ability to break through guard it will still keep their 1v1 damage level the same but give the the extra utility to be useful on the battle field. So don't give them Unstoppable, or ED. Just give us the ability to do something on the battlefield other classes can't do. The last thing we need is another Jug/Guardian clone class. Edited June 3, 2014 by chosonman

[Cretinus]

Sure.

[Zadtro]

I agree that mar/sent are a bit paper dollish at the moment. But with a healer they are great =] I never feel i am a crutch in a warzone, i am essential to killing healers or anyone who needs to be killed quickly. I play carnage (combat for sent) and even with guard in a wz i can distract a healer easy whilst my other team mates take out the rest of the opposition. But in all honesty i do swap to anni (watchman) now and again so i can survive a bit. I may be swapping back in 2.8 because of the buff who knows.

 

Carnage with 100%armor pierce is very good but maybe we need some sort of guard penetration? Because you are right in saying we don't bring a lot but we do bring predation (aoe speed increase to 30/50% and defense raise by 10%) and healing debuff (lowers healing recieved by 20% which lasts 15 secs and has a 12 sec CD so very useful in my book) which in carnage immobilizes for 3 secs. So we do have some useful talents. I agree that we need something to separate us from snipers/commando's in that sense.

 

Maybe we can have some form of guard penetration, not alot but say we can ignore 50% (that means guard would only transfer 25% overall to the tank) in all honesty i think that is overpowered but something that makes us more useful i agree with.

[General_Aldo]

They are fine. The problem lies within the individual player.

 

Let's be honest here. A majority (95%) of the actual good pvp players left for other games (Wildstar). So it's safe to assume that a majority (95%) of the players recommending buffing a class are actual bad players that have no idea how to properly use the class.

 

Since a majority of players nowadays are just post 2.0 people, they have no idea how the fundamental basics of classes work and therefore perform horribly. 95% of people complaining about class buffs need to learn their class better.

 

 

I don't need "that guy" who questions how I got 95% for my statistical analysis. I've been playing since beta and I know bad players when I see them.

 

[eerinbastile]

They are fine. The problem lies within the individual player.

 

Let's be honest here. A majority (95%) of the actual good pvp players left for other games (Wildstar). So it's safe to assume that a majority (95%) of the players recommending buffing a class are actual bad players that have no idea how to properly use the class.

 

Since a majority of players nowadays are just post 2.0 people, they have no idea how the fundamental basics of classes work and therefore perform horribly. 95% of people complaining about class buffs need to learn their class better.

 

 

I don't need "that guy" who questions how I got 95% for my statistical analysis. I've been playing since beta and I know bad players when I see them.

 

qft

 

/5char

[undies]

They are fine. The problem lies within the individual player.

 

Let's be honest here. A majority (95%) of the actual good pvp players left for other games (Wildstar). So it's safe to assume that a majority (95%) of the players recommending buffing a class are actual bad players that have no idea how to properly use the class.

 

Since a majority of players nowadays are just post 2.0 people, they have no idea how the fundamental basics of classes work and therefore perform horribly. 95% of people complaining about class buffs need to learn their class better.

 

 

I don't need "that guy" who questions how I got 95% for my statistical analysis. I've been playing since beta and I know bad players when I see them.

 

Haha, you're a funny guy. It's not like there haven't been adjustments post 2.0 that effect classes negatively, calling for a buff. "All the actual good PvP'ers left for other games before Wildstar" would have been a more correct statement, while still irrelevant.

Edited June 4, 2014 by undies

[Dawginole]

They are fine. The problem lies within the individual player.

 

Let's be honest here. A majority (95%) of the actual good pvp players left for other games (Wildstar). So it's safe to assume that a majority (95%) of the players recommending buffing a class are actual bad players that have no idea how to properly use the class.

 

Since a majority of players nowadays are just post 2.0 people, they have no idea how the fundamental basics of classes work and therefore perform horribly. 95% of people complaining about class buffs need to learn their class better.

 

 

I don't need "that guy" who questions how I got 95% for my statistical analysis. I've been playing since beta and I know bad players when I see them.

 

This was a great post to prove that you have been here since beta and still don't understand what you're talking about.

 

And before you say l2p play to me since I know this is how players who actually don't know what they're talking about respond.

 

http://photos.napalm.net/clubsi/Roofus_pvp_821k.jpg

 

And that's not on some slap happy derp zerg map either btw...

[General_Aldo]

This was a great post to prove that you have been here since beta and still don't understand what you're talking about.

 

And before you say l2p play to me since I know this is how players who actually don't know what they're talking about respond.

 

http://photos.napalm.net/clubsi/Roofus_pvp_821k.jpg

 

And that's not on some slap happy derp zerg map either btw...

 

First of all, I can't believe that you are gloating about a 800k damage warzone (you didn't even show your dps). No good player looks at total damage/healing. Good players look at dps/hps.

 

I know bad players when I see them and I can see you clearly falling into that category.

Edited June 4, 2014 by General_Aldo

[Dawginole]

First of all, I can't believe that you are gloating about a 800k damage warzone (you didn't even show your dps). No good player looks at total damage/healing. Good players look at dps/hps.

 

I know bad players when I see them and I can see you clearly falling into that category.

 

Can't mouse over dps with overwolf screenies. Obvious. l2p

[AngusFTW]

sent/mara is fine

Yes jug/guardian have an op cd atm

but these threads about sentinels/marauders are getting tiresome. They are fine, they will be even better when anni gets buffed.

*yawn* l2p

Edited June 4, 2014 by AngusFTW

[Cordorian]

sent/mara is fine

Yes jug/guardian have an op cd atm

but these threads about sentinels/marauders are getting tiresome. They are fine, they will be even better when anni gets buffed.

*yawn* l2p

 

I really don't know what is going on with people right now about mara sents. Yes the days of faceroll superduper ez Smash are gone, but the tree still does good damage and still can be played while being ********d without a performance loss.

 

Carnage always was harder to play good then other tree is the game, and that is totally fine. If people would watch what you sometimes do on your stream i doubt anybody will see a terribly underpowered class. I am pretty sure there used to be quite a bunch of people pull this off.

 

Well yeah anni will probably be the epic after 2.8.

 

Heck Mara, isnt the easiest advanced class in the game, and it is fine like that.

[JustinJK]

they need to fix the focus/rage spec, lol i cant play the spec purely because its feels too dumb and boring. the combat spec is good its fun and exciting but FOR the combat spec to be VIABLE IN WARZONES they need alot of support from team mates, heals, placing a guard on the sentinel, tag team sentinel cooperation lol, stasis while the other master strikes lol then vis versa.

 

one of the worst things about the sent's/mara class is getting stuned and stuned then focused shot at, and dead, while your pug team is just casually lets you die. lol the sent got all the aggro while your team mates hide and dps, but if there was no sentinel they would of got the aggro, lol and while your'e pug team is busy point scoring to make themselfs look good on the scoreboard lol, your the one deep in enemy lines trying to kill the healer that is cowardly hiding and healing = smart healer, lol

true saying lol: probably 90% of the time a sent/mara will die from NOT being beaten one on one, but by being beaten by 2,3,4 opponents that either had a hand in stunning, shooting, range abillites, you name it lol. and the class isnt designed to be able to survive with that many people focusing on you lol. your basically going in there and committing suicide.

 

basically if your planing on playing by youself lol, i wouldnt recomend playing the sent/mara class becasue youi'll be an easy target for the other team lol, i dont mean youill be an easy kill lol a good sent can last 20 + sec's being focued on by 4 or 5 opponents.

 

 

if i could add something to the sent/mara class is would be a short duration immunity cooldown from stuns/roots when your at low health, or give the sent's an way of escaping the battle lol, so that they can heal themselfs or get a health pickup,

[Petnil]

one of the worst Things for "insert random AC" is getting stunned and fokused. Not a single AC can survive getting stunned and fokused unless they get pockethealer and guard.

[Cordorian]

one of the worst Things for "insert random AC" is getting stunned and fokused. Not a single AC can survive getting stunned and fokused unless they get pockethealer and guard.

well actually jugg can pull that off atm, at least to a degree.

[chosonman]

I guess part of the point of this thread is not just to say mara/sents are a little on the squishy side (which they are) but one point is, if they are going to be as squish as they are it should serve a purpose. Other classes have similiar dps and burst as Sent/Mara (Sin/Shadow have a seriously powerful starting burst, Jug/Guard has almost the same sustained damage, Sniper/Slinger can put out almost as much dps but from a far greater range, the same with Mer/Commando, Sage/Sorc can DPS at range and off heal) So the question is where does Sent/Mara fit in the realm of PVP? Part of the reason I think you're seeing fewer and fewer of them is because there are better options for DPS than Sent/Mara they don't really bring that much more to the table than the others that were mentioned. And they are certainly not good at infiltrating enemy nodes or guarding them, so why bother having them in warzone especially when they're so reliant on healers to be effective?

 

The other issue is the OP of Guard Healing in some warzones. So why not have Sent/mara fit the role of Guard smashing and kill 2 birds with one stone? This would certainly give them new life without giving them OP abilities over other classes. It would give them utility. It would also make node capping a lot less painful when you have a room full of healers and tanks guarding a node. And most of all it wouldn't create another Jug/Guardian clone class. It would make them unique and useful as they should be.

[ToMyMa]

I guess part of the point of this thread is not just to say mara/sents are a little on the squishy side (which they are) but one point is, if they are going to be as squish as they are it should serve a purpose. Other classes have similiar dps and burst as Sent/Mara (Sin/Shadow have a seriously powerful starting burst, Jug/Guard has almost the same sustained damage, Sniper/Slinger can put out almost as much dps but from a far greater range, the same with Mer/Commando, Sage/Sorc can DPS at range and off heal) So the question is where does Sent/Mara fit in the realm of PVP? Part of the reason I think you're seeing fewer and fewer of them is because there are better options for DPS than Sent/Mara they don't really bring that much more to the table than the others that were mentioned. And they are certainly not good at infiltrating enemy nodes or guarding them, so why bother having them in warzone especially when they're so reliant on healers to be effective?

 

The other issue is the OP of Guard Healing in some warzones. So why not have Sent/mara fit the role of Guard smashing and kill 2 birds with one stone? This would certainly give them new life without giving them OP abilities over other classes. It would give them utility. It would also make node capping a lot less painful when you have a room full of healers and tanks guarding a node. And most of all it wouldn't create another Jug/Guardian clone class. It would make them unique and useful as they should be.

 

Dude, stop it. You didn't take the hint when almost all the people (spare a few) said that marauder was fine in your last thread. You need to learn to play. Marauder is beyond fine, people just stopped playing them due to derpsmash being nerfed.

[shyroman]

This was a great post to prove that you have been here since beta and still don't understand what you're talking about.

 

And before you say l2p play to me since I know this is how players who actually don't know what they're talking about respond.

 

http://photos.napalm.net/clubsi/Roofus_pvp_821k.jpg

 

And that's not on some slap happy derp zerg map either btw...

 

You can do top damage in focus spec? That really isn't too big of an accomplishment even with the recent nerf and doesn't show that you can play really well. Try doing that in combat spec now which is what this thread is mainly about.

 

Note: I think carnage is fine and doesn't need a buff besides a QoL change. Just needed to point out that the screenshot doesn't prove anything.

[Baalzamon]

All they need to do is reverse the changes to Guarded by the Force and Undying Rage that would not be over the top like most other changes they make.

[Cordorian]

Dude, stop it. You didn't take the hint when almost all the people (spare a few) said that marauder was fine in your last thread. You need to learn to play. Marauder is beyond fine, people just stopped playing them due to derpsmash being nerfed.

 

I know it is completely unrelated, but i pre 2.5 and those that heard me on TS couldnt stop laughing. I mean i didnt even had my keybinds set up for that and only knew jugg smash before, so i was really only hitting random button, only to find out i am still not dead... ok another smash then. I ended up yelling" Bloody hell this is way too easy" the whole evening, (OK my exact words were "bloody hell this is even easier than operative healing")

 

And yeah smash is even still good and easy, it is just not ridiculous anymore. I main the sentinel now for quite a while there are surely tons out there (or were) that are way better with it, but one thing I would never do is call it underpowered in both combat and focus. I usually blame myself first and try find out what mistakes i have made when it didn't work out as i wanted. A lot of time, i see my target picking was wrong, or didn't pay attention to the CDs my target has already used.

I wont deny that the spec and class is more team dependent than others, but still even in unfavorable situation you can optimize your play style. Well if you are against 4 madness sorcs, there is nothing you can do. But it is same for the madness sorc if he is against 4 combat sents.

 

 

And I dare say combat actually brings more to the table than its actual dps. Transcendence alone is pure gold in both objective based and arena pvp, not to mention inspiration at the right moment. The root alone can drive ball carriers in huttball mad (and roots dont fill resolve). Even if you might not always be able to burst down operative healers quickly you can harrass them so much that it is no fun for them (yes i have been on receiving end of this as well, those bloody roots).

Not to mention that combat is almost a must have for team ranked if you wanna go hard switches.

 

In yolo ranked you can still go smash and be less team dependent, if you feel combat doesnt work there. But sents/maras really arent the only class that has problems in arenas without support, ask sorc healers for example, or mando dps. (even scoundrel healing can be annoying without a tank)

 

Combat can have an incredible burst when the stars align. Just from doing some PvE i can tell you from experience tanks usually have to retaunt after your opener and you better high camo as quickly as possible, because you regularly grab aggro. And sometimes it is possible to get that insane opening burst of even in normal wzs. I dont say it 4s kill, but it pretty much isnt much more. It is only fair that this can be countered.

[foxmob]

I really don't know what is going on with people right now about mara sents. Yes the days of faceroll superduper ez Smash are gone, but the tree still does good damage and still can be played while being ********d without a performance loss.

 

Carnage always was harder to play good then other tree is the game, and that is totally fine. If people would watch what you sometimes do on your stream i doubt anybody will see a terribly underpowered class. I am pretty sure there used to be quite a bunch of people pull this off.

 

Well yeah anni will probably be the epic after 2.8.

 

Heck Mara, isnt the easiest advanced class in the game, and it is fine like that.

agree with pretty much everything here. but...I've read this thread up to the 2nd page, and not a single person has commented on the fact that the OP says his mara is useless in warzones. if you cannot do meaningful dps on a carnage/smash mara in a WZ, then it really is you. WZs include a lot more CC (whitebar = full ravage), more healers (longer life for you by receiving heals and not being focused), more areas (you can dictate the fight), much worse competition. you can succeed in WZs by dpsing (not for utility) on a concealment op and madness sin, and carnage/smash maras are considerably more viable than either of those as dpsers. there's no "my class sucks" excuse for WZs...ever.

Edited June 4, 2014 by foxmob

[chosonman]

agree with pretty much everything here. but...I've read this thread up to the 2nd page, and not a single person has commented on the fact that the OP says his mara is useless in warzones. if you cannot do meaningful dps on a carnage/smash mara in a WZ, then it really is you. WZs include a lot more CC (whitebar = full ravage), more healers (longer life for you by receiving heals and not being focused), more areas (you can dictate the fight), much worse competition. you can succeed in WZs by dpsing (not for utility) on a concealment op and madness sin, and carnage/smash maras are considerably more viable than either of those as dpsers. there's no "my class sucks" excuse for WZs...ever.

 

So the question I'll ask you is what's the benefit of doing dps as a Mara/Sent vs any other dps class aside from the fact you're more prone to get CC lock down as soon as you engage, you don't have H2F, and you can't DPS from distance so the target doesn't even know they are getting hit? You can't guard nodes you can infiltrate.... So basically what I'm saying is there is not benefit to choosing Mara/Sent vs another DPS class. None.

 

...and who do you think is easier to heal over time Mara or a Jug, Sniper, Sin, Op, Pyro, or Merc? As a healer I have to constantly be on top of my Sentinels. Jugs have h2f, Snipers have balistic dampers and DR in cover, Op and sin have stealth, Pyro and Merc have heavy armor and off heals.

Edited June 4, 2014 by chosonman

[scylence]

So the question I'll ask you is what's the benefit of doing dps as a Mara/Sent vs any other dps class aside from the fact you're more prone to get CC lock down as soon as you engage, you don't have H2F, and you can't DPS from distance so the target doesn't even know they are getting hit? You can't guard nodes you can infiltrate.... So basically what I'm saying is there is not benefit to choosing Mara/Sent vs another DPS class. None.

 

...and who do you think is easier to heal over time Mara or a Jug, Sniper, Sin, Op, Pyro, or Merc? As a healer I have to constantly be on top of my Sentinels. Jugs have h2f, Snipers have balistic dampers and DR in cover, Op and sin have stealth, Pyro and Merc have heavy armor and off heals.

 

I dont think they need more direct survivability increasing tools per say. A simple weaker/partial version of unstoppable would do the trick.

 

Force grip like talent would be nice as well (in honesty I think Choke/Stasis should by default perform like they do with Force Grip/Stasis mastery talents on)

[chosonman]

I dont think they need more direct survivability increasing tools per say. A simple weaker/partial version of unstoppable would do the trick.

 

Force grip like talent would be nice as well (in honesty I think Choke/Stasis should by default perform like they do with Force Grip/Stasis mastery talents on)

 

Actually what I was saying isn't that they need unstoppable, just a talent(s) to make them more useful in warzones like maybe a skill to break Guard so they can do something other than just DPS. As I mentioned before other classes can to comparable DPS and bring more utility to the battlefield. Sins and Ops have similar burst but can also stealth to guard to cap nodes. Jugs have similiar sustained DPS but can tank. Snipers also have similiar sustained but can shoot from far away.... so the point is Sent/Mara's don't bring very much to the table that the other classes can't and on top of that they are squishier than most of the other classes.

[scylence]

Actually what I was saying isn't that they need unstoppable, just a talent(s) to make them more useful in warzones like maybe a skill to break Guard so they can do something other than just DPS. As I mentioned before other classes can to comparable DPS and bring more utility to the battlefield. Sins and Ops have similar burst but can also stealth to guard to cap nodes. Jugs have similiar sustained DPS but can tank. Snipers also have similiar sustained but can shoot from far away.... so the point is Sent/Mara's don't bring very much to the table that the other classes can't and on top of that they are squishier than most of the other classes.

 

problem is In it's current form Sent/Mara is built like a stealth class without access to full stealth.

(Leap doesnt make up for it)

Some sort of shot duration partial CC immunity tied to leap would make up for it.

 

I like the idea of a guard break but I think it would make more sense on a class that doesn't have a healing debuff. I I think it would be better tied to Lethality Ops (not sniper), conceal Op, or even add it to the effect of Net for mando/merc.

 

I'd much rather see the healing debuff of crippling throw get upped to something like 50% even if it was high tier talent based, then get a guard break

[foxmob]

So the question I'll ask you is what's the benefit of doing dps as a Mara/Sent vs any other dps class aside from the fact you're more prone to get CC lock down as soon as you engage, you don't have H2F, and you can't DPS from distance so the target doesn't even know they are getting hit? You can't guard nodes you can infiltrate.... So basically what I'm saying is there is not benefit to choosing Mara/Sent vs another DPS class. None.

 

...and who do you think is easier to heal over time Mara or a Jug, Sniper, Sin, Op, Pyro, or Merc? As a healer I have to constantly be on top of my Sentinels. Jugs have h2f, Snipers have balistic dampers and DR in cover, Op and sin have stealth, Pyro and Merc have heavy armor and off heals.

 

you're doing it wrong. really. that's the best I can tell you if you have constant difficulty in a WZ. You have plenty of escapes and a powerful dcd. but even that is beside the point. it's a WZ. there's a lot of **** going on. believe me, that one mara is not the focus of the other team's dps (unless you act stupid and leap ahead of your team in something like AHG). you need to let the juggs go in first. and the tanks. don't be the first person to hit a target. let him waste his CC on the other guy. roll with a healer and a tank. look: the same basic tenants that apply to every class's success in a WZ apply to mara. stop trying to pursue a merc who only has you to worry about and just threw a net on you. 90% of mara problems in WZs can be solved by one little piece of advice: don't overextend.

 

to answer your first question, you play the mara because it's your toon, and you want to play him. if you don't like what he does, go play something else. really. it's a WZ. every spec is viable in a WZ. mara utility is very welcome in a WZ, and anyone who groans because a carnage/smash mara is on his team (simply because he's a mara) is a complete buffoon.