The BattleZone! Demo Match: 4-way Brawl

[Aurbere]

Anakin would if it was..... and which "two bit" acolyte used it? TK is based on knowledge and understanding as well, yet everyone uses it just not to the same degree thats the whole point power scaling is ALWAYS bad in star wars.

 

Nox was a slave and he comes to Korriban and starts dishing out lightning right away. Again, he was a mere slave.

[Beniboybling]

here let me put it to you this way..... If Cihgal can lift a Rock... yet Corran Horn can NOT lift a rock, this does not mean that Chigal has greater Tutaminis abilities then Corran Horn......

 

 

Bassically just because character A > B in one aspect does not mean A > B in ALL aspects.

 

Power scaling is the idea that one character can do EVERYTHING a lesser character can do to the same extent or potency as that "lesser" character.

 

 

Edit: Sel and Beni are assuming that because Traya> Malgus in things such as drain Tk and Telepathy that Traya > Malgus in lightning as well. As my show with Cihgal and Corran Horn just now... I have proven that is not neccisarrily true as the force doesnt work that way.

I don't see how this is relevant at all, both Traya and Malgus can use Force Lightning proficiently, Force Lightning is based all most entirely on raw power. Traya displays near equal if not superior ability at unleashing raw Force energy in the form of attacks, therefore to assume that her lightining is equal if not more powerful than Malgus is logical.

 

You can't just use the fact that this is not necessarily the case to assume that it is not the case. You need some kind of evidence theoretical or otherwise to prove that Traya cannot wield this power, and you have none.

 

Calling people fanboys because there are trying to draw logical conclusions on matters that unfortunately we do not have a breadth of information on is not helping your argument either.

[tunewalker]

Next level powers have absolutely nothing to do with the base.

 

Literally nothing.

 

By this logic, Traya is better than every shatterpoint user who ever lived, because she managed to perceive it on Galactic scale. And by this logic, her skill in single point shatterpoint is better than Windu's.

 

By This logic, Nox > Tyranus in the skills of lightning. A foolish statement if ever there was one.

 

you are assuming galactic scale Shatter point is harder then localized Shatterpoint and not just different as i have already stated multiple times over. She doesnt really have Localized Shatter point. She has never shown the ability to use shatter point to discern what needs to be done in the local, only on the galactic.

 

Nox may very well have more powerful Lightning then Tyranus. It was the one thing as far as I know that Nox was known for, Tyranus was much more percise. If I remember tyranus Force abilities were like himself percise, crisp and clean and with perpose, but lacking in kenetic Force and substance. His lightning was well applied percise and able to break through tutaminis and barriers better then Nox, but didnt kill as quickly or hurt as badly. Its the variations on Force powers and Lightning is one of those powers with the most variations unique to each individual. Its why even more we CANT use power scaling with it.

 

 

As I said earlier.... TK is an ability that requires knowledge and understanding yet every one can use it. The more knowledge and understanding you have the more percise your TK abilities are, even to a degree the more you can lift. (Luke is a perfect example of this, he didnt get stronger in the force as he got older he got more knowledge and understanding)

 

And even if you want to pull the "Raw power" card you have to now prove that Traya has more "Raw Power" then Malgus and Nox rather then just knowledge and understanding. Which is pretty hard to do as Raw power is talking about connection to the force and potential more so then knowledge and understanding.

[tunewalker]

Nox was a slave and he comes to Korriban and starts dishing out lightning right away. Again, he was a mere slave.

 

what did he become? did Koon have training in lightning? Do you think this may be another case of affinity for an ability. A persons natural affinity for an ability will bypass knowledge as the force is something you feel, if you have the natural affinity for an ability you can feel it in your bones, your body knows how to do it even if your mind does not.

[Beniboybling]

Assuming he has no affinity for it or hasnt taken lightning to a further degree then traya.... OH WAIT.... he uses Force Maelstrom which is called the next stage of evolution in Force Lightning..... has Traya.... NO.... so clearly he HAS taken farther.... oh my imagine that.

This is irrelevant considering Malgus did not use the Force Maelstrom to kill any Jedi.

[tunewalker]

I don't see how this is relevant at all, both Traya and Malgus can use Force Lightning proficiently, Force Lightning is based all most entirely on raw power. Traya displays near equal if not superior ability at unleashing raw Force energy in the form of attacks, therefore to assume that her lightining is equal if not more powerful than Malgus is logical.

 

You can't just use the fact that this is not necessarily the case to assume that it is not the case. You need some kind of evidence theoretical or otherwise to prove that Traya cannot wield this power, and you have none.

 

Calling people fanboys because there are trying to draw logical conclusions on matters that unfortunately we do not have a breadth of information on is not helping your argument either.

 

I call it as i see it . And that was one example to explain my point. Do you really think the NJO isn't FILLED with these examples. Theorectical evidence..... you want evidence to say she cant... in fictional world a character not doing something is usually proof that they cant... She hasnt thus she cant that is theoretical. Your theory is she can based solely on power scaling..... but as I have shown you cant rely on power scaling YOU NEED PROOF that some one can do something and POWER SCALING IS NOT PROOF.

[Aurbere]

what did he become?

 

Doesn't matter what he became. What matters is what he was at the time. He was a

. A slave with little to no knowledge of the Force, only great potential.

 

Plo Koon is a special case.

[tunewalker]

Doesn't matter what he became. What matters is what he was at the time. He was a

. A slave with little to no knowledge of the Force, only great potential.

 

Plo Koon is a special case.

 

ALL JEDI ARE SPECIAL CASES. That's the point.... Streen used Alter enviroment with no jedi training what so ever. Would we call Alter enviroment based on raw power... no He had a special affinity for the ability. As I went on to say in that same post some one with the affinity for an ability doesnt usually need the knowledge. The Force is feeling when some one has the affinity for an ability they feel it and can do it with out having the mental knowledge because their bodies know how to do it even if their mind does not. Corran Horn tried to lift a rock, but unconciously used force illusions instead, because of an affinity for it. No one told him how. So on and so forth. Every single force user ever is a special case. They all have different skill sets and different affinities for different abilities. The lore is LITTERED with proof of this. Nox is just one more proof of this case.

 

jaina and Jacen using TK as kids, Gantoris having an affinity for Foresight. Anakins Affinity and unrefined nature with Foresight. Windu and Shatter point. Obi-wan and Force Push/ Force waves/repels, he was nothing special with levitating objects but was one of the strongest with wave based TK abilities.

 

 

THE LIST GOES ON AND ON AND ON... including nearly every force user ever explored in the star wars mythos.

Edited April 20, 2014 by tunewalker

[Wolfninjajedi]

Abit according to the Kotor game guide, Kreia does know Force Lighting/Storm.

 

In addition, she commands an array of potent dark side powers like Drain Life and Force Storm.

 

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

 

 

Which is fine, but the problem being here is that....we don't know how powerful she was with said Force Lighting/Storm. I mean was she powerful enough to make someone charred or just cause them to be knocked out like Dooku did with Anakin in EP 2?

 

 

There isn't actual evidence of how powerful it is really, it's just stating she has it not the power behind it.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

Abit according to the Kotor game guide, Kreia does know Force Lighting/Storm.

 

 

 

 

Which is fine, but the problem being here is that....we don't know how powerful she was with said Force Lighting/Storm. I mean was she powerful enough to make someone charred or just cause them to be knocked out like Dooku did with Anakin in EP 2?

 

 

There isn't actual evidence of how powerful it is really, it's just stating she has it not the power behind it.

 

Storm isnt maelstrom... which i think maelstrom is still higher and the rest of it is the point.

[ShadowMudkip]

I'm gone for like an hour and a half and I'm so far behind! Jeez people slow down.

[tunewalker]

I'm gone for like an hour and a half and I'm so far behind! Jeez people slow down.

 

sorry i got in one of my rage induced rants about the Star Wars Mythos as a whole and sometimes the rage I get at the fans of it.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Storm isnt maelstrom... which i think maelstrom is still higher and the rest of it is the point.

 

? I never said it was maelstrom and maelstrom is higher, I was just pointing out that Traya knows Force Lighting.

[tunewalker]

? I never said it was maelstrom and maelstrom is higher, I was just pointing out that Traya knows Force Lighting.

 

I know she does, I never said she didnt, my point is we cant assume she has better lightning then Malgus or Nox because even between more powerful/ less powerful people lightning behaves different from person to person.

[Beniboybling]

I call it as i see it . And that was one example to explain my point. Do you really think the NJO isn't FILLED with these examples. Theorectical evidence..... you want evidence to say she cant... in fictional world a character not doing something is usually proof that they cant... She hasnt thus she cant that is theoretical. Your theory is she can based solely on power scaling..... but as I have shown you cant rely on power scaling YOU NEED PROOF that some one can do something and POWER SCALING IS NOT PROOF.

I'm afraid you've failed to show anything, and you've offered no credible proof that isn't either arbitrary or logically flawed. For example:

 

"If a character hasn't done it, that usually means they can't do it."

 

/sigh An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Deja vu no? The individuals we have actually seen Traya attack with Force Lightning is the Exile and T3-M4. The Exile obviously wasn't killed instantly, and we can't gauge the damage because game mechanics are unreliable. T3-M4 was deactivated, but *shrug* he's a droid.

 

Based on this it is impossible to reach the conclusion, I repeat impossible, to reach the conclusion that Traya cannot kill lesser Force Sensitives or non-Force Sensitives instantly with her lightning. To do so is a logical fallacy. To reach such a conclusion we need a situation in which the limits of a character are clearly displayed in the relevant field.

 

Clear? Good.

 

In the instance that we lack this information i.e. here and now. We can either choose not to take the power into account, which of course is not an option here, or try to reach a conclusion through comparison.

 

So let's review the argument on the table, the one that doesn't make logical fallacies. This so called power scaling is me reaching the conclusion that because Traya is capable of unleashing raw power in the Force in equal if not more powerful ways than Malgus, she can unleash Force Lightining in equal if not more powerful ways as well.

 

Your critiques are as follows:

 

1. Superior showings in one aspect does not imply superior showings in another.

Correct, unless they act on the same principles. For example lets take your fallacious comparison of telekinesis and tutanmis, these are completely different abilities in different spheres of Force power. Telekinesis is alter and involves acting on the enviroment around you, Tutanimis is control and involves acting on yourself.

 

Clearly what we have here is that Cihgal possess skill in Alter whereas Corran Horn does not and like with the senses his body compensates by making him unnaturally capable in Control. But that is not the situation here.

 

We are dealing with Alter and Alter alone. Traya has equal if not superior showings to Malgus in this category, using her powers to break down more powerful Force Barriers than Malgus has demonstrating a superior ability to exert the Force on others in destructive ways, which is exactly what Force Lightning does, just in an electrical, dark side orientated form. There is very little difference in the mechanics of the power, especially for fellow dark siders.

2. Malgus has show greater mastery and/or affinity with lightning.

No he has not. For a practitioner of the dark side all offensive Force powers involve channeling malevolent emotions into an attack, channeling the dark side. More often that not simple attacks like Telekinetic pushes and chokes have been described in terms of lashing out with the dark side, as expressions of dark side power. Therefore through superior showings in TK and elsewhere Traya has shown superior ability in channeling malevolent emotions into an attack, or Malgus' TK feats would be just as much if not more impressive. They are not.

 

This also I feel renders the fact that Malgus has mastered the Force Storm moot as well, but that's not really relevant anymore as Wolf's evidence seems to suggest that Traya was also capable of this power.

3. Different Force Users applies Force Lightning in different ways.

Yes they do, but no evidence suggests that certain Force Users are more proficient say in the kinetic rather than electrical aspects of the attack. For example Count Dooku was just as capable of throwing someone across the room with Force Lightning as he was shocking them while keeping them stationery. As have countless over Force Users such as Malgus, Nyriss, Sidious, Plagueis, Nox etc. instances in which this hasn't been the case are slim is non-existent.

 

So its far more likely that mastery over Force Lightning allows you to incorporate kinetic aspects whereas the electrical, damaged based aspects are determined by how much raw power you are capable of channeling.

4. Malgus has not killed people instantly.

Yes he has. Lets review the scene again:

 

Malgus, not to be outdone, picked a Jedi Knight at random, a human female ten meters away, held forth his left hand, and discharged veins of blue lightning from his fingertips. The jagged lines of energy cut a swath through the battle, harvesting two Padawans as they went, until they caught up to the Jedi Knight and lifted her off her feet.

 

The Jedi Knight was his target, not the Padawans, they merely got in the way of the arc and where struck. The novel says they were "harvested" which I can only assume to mean they were suck try i.e. they died. Once more their deaths would have to have been instant because as not the intended targets Malgus wouldn't have been in a position to expend prolonged energy on them.

 

Regardless we must keep the debate in mind, my point was that Traya could very likely kill non-Force Sensitives instantly, these individuals were Force Sensitive. A non-Force sensitive would not last nearly as long. And what's shorter than a second? A millisecond, a few of which makes up the time it takes for a lightning strike to kill you.

 

Bear in mind of course the situation, Traya is not going to be throwing an off-hand blast and Malgus, she's going to put all her energy into it, it will be a charged and refined bolt of extremely powerful energy. Which as Selenial so kindly pointed out gives it an advantage over real lightning which is not concentrated.

Anyway I think we need a bit of perspective here. 1 inch of rubber, the sort of stuff protecting wires that lightning easily burns through, can withstand roughly 450,000 to 700,000 volts of electricity. A average lightning bolt has a voltage of 1 billion. If Force Lightning comes even close to that kind of power Vader is going to need some serious bad@ss insulation to even begin to negate its effects completely. I highly doubt he has that.

[Beniboybling]

Storm isnt maelstrom... which i think maelstrom is still higher and the rest of it is the point.

Darth Nyriss on the other hand, who's most potent lightning attack was the Force Storm is another Sith Lord who has show herself capable of killing with her lightning instantly with lightning as well, reducing her victims to charred corpses.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I know she does, I never said she didnt, my point is we cant assume she has better lightning then Malgus or Nox because even between more powerful/ less powerful people lightning behaves different from person to person.

 

Right which is what I pointed out, she knows it but we dunno how powerful it is.

 

This in lies the problem with using Traya in battles. Most of what she did really wasn't combat related at all, she did show some good TK like killing a group of Sith Assassins, choking Sion and pushed back Vrook, Kavar and Zez. But really Vader could replicate any of those, Malgus not sure(but I dunno all his TK feats), Kun no seeing as he has really shown basic TK feats(push/pull).

 

She is also noted as a master lightsaber combatant with her floating 3 lightsabers. But while this would be something that the others haven't faced before, it doesn't really hold any advantage given their saber prowess.

[Beniboybling]

Right which is what I pointed out, she knows it but we dunno how powerful it is.

 

This in lies the problem with using Traya in battles. Most of what she did really wasn't combat related at all, she did show some good TK like killing a group of Sith Assassins, choking Sion and pushed back Vrook, Kavar and Zez. But really Vader could replicate any of those, Malgus not sure(but I dunno all his TK feats), Kun no seeing as he has really shown basic TK feats(push/pull).

 

She is also noted as a master lightsaber combatant with her floating 3 lightsabers. But while this would be something that the others haven't faced before, it doesn't really hold any advantage given their saber prowess.

She killed the assassins with dark healing, just to say. But I agree, and its for this reason that we have to make theoretical comparison and what not if we want to apply her to a battlefield scenario.

 

On that last point though, I think that might come in handy when holding off multiple opponents. She could use it as a screen and possible use in the midst of combat to stab her opponent in the back.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

She killed the assassins with dark healing, just to say. But I agree, and its for this reason that we have to make theoretical comparison and what not if we want to apply her to a battlefield scenario.

 

On that last point though, I think that might come in handy when holding off multiple opponents. She could use it as a screen and possible use in the midst of combat to stab her opponent in the back.

 

Dark healing? Wha? Where was this stated?

 

It might, but then she only has 3 lightsabers. If she just spreads them out to the 3 others, wouldn't it then just be them fighting against 1 saber each?

Edited April 20, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Selenial]

Dark healing? Wha? Where was this stated?

 

It might, but then she only has 3 lightsabers. If she just spreads them out to the 3 others, wouldn't it then just be them fighting against 1 saber each?

 

They all just instantly drop dead.

 

Dark Healing's the logical explanation.

[Selenial]

Right which is what I pointed out, she knows it but we dunno how powerful it is.

 

This in lies the problem with using Traya in battles. Most of what she did really wasn't combat related at all, she did show some good TK like killing a group of Sith Assassins, choking Sion and pushed back Vrook, Kavar and Zez. But really Vader could replicate any of those, Malgus not sure(but I dunno all his TK feats), Kun no seeing as he has really shown basic TK feats(push/pull).

 

She is also noted as a master lightsaber combatant with her floating 3 lightsabers. But while this would be something that the others haven't faced before, it doesn't really hold any advantage given their saber prowess.

 

Also, Visas/Handmaiden/Mical/Mira, all via the force. Push, Choke, and Crush.

[Beniboybling]

Dark healing? Wha? Where was this stated?

 

It might, but then she only has 3 lightsabers. If she just spreads them out to the 3 others, wouldn't it then just be them fighting against 1 saber each?

I'm pretty sure it was said somewhere... maybe in the KOTOR CG. Anyway what Selenial said, given that they just dropped dead without her lifting a finger its safe to assume she used this power to manipulate their bodies and effectively stop their hearts, of something like that.

 

If they all decide to gang up on her, but that's just a possible. All I can say is that she can use this power to keep her foes at bay while she say, conceals herself or perhaps prepares a powerful Force based attack etc.

 

She could also used to as I said, stab her enemies in the back while she is engaging them, or stab other opponents in the back while they are engaging others. In the chaos of the battle I expect it could prove most effective.

[Beniboybling]

Also, Visas/Handmaiden/Mical/Mira, all via the force. Push, Choke, and Crush.

And technically Bao-Dur, if you count the DS path.

[Selenial]

And technically Bao-Dur, if you count the DS path.

 

Also, she made Bao-Dur Pass out without even moving, she basically just went "Sleep" and he keeled over.

[Wolfninjajedi]

They all just instantly drop dead.

 

Dark Healing's the logical explanation.

 

So? We didn't see how they died, logically TK could have also done that ya know. When has Dark Healing ever killed someone? More to that *** is Dark Healing suppose to be? Healing?