The BattleZone! Demo Match: 4-way Brawl

[tunewalker]

She did not specify, she never does lol, so I'm afraid that leads nowhere.

 

incorrect she did specify, she said she can see breaks in events, she never said she could see them in anything else. Thus its a specification. Why didnt she just say she can see breaking points in all things. Or why didnt she just say She can see breaking points.... She specified for a reason.

[Selenial]

incorrect she did specify, she said she can see breaks in events, she never said she could see them in anything else. Thus its a specification. Why didnt she just say she can see breaking points in all things. Or why didnt she just say She can see breaking points.... She specified for a reason.

 

I can't remember where she says it, Kotor 2 blurs together after a while in terms of quotes, but I thought she said she could see fractures in both?

[Beniboybling]

incorrect she did specify, she said she can see breaks in events, she never said she could see them in anything else. Thus its a specification. Why didnt she just say she can see breaking points in all things. Or why didnt she just say She can see breaking points.... She specified for a reason.

I can't remember where she says it, Kotor 2 blurs together after a while in terms of quotes, but I thought she said she could see fractures in both?

I'm fairly sure all she does is mention the presence of fractures, from which we assume she can see them. She never talks in regards to herself. Unless you can bring up an actual quote.

[Aurbere]

You need to define "acting like idiots" because that just seems empty fluff to me. I'm already provided sufficient argument for why they are incapable of doing much at all.

 

Anyway as I said, in the midst of a choatic battle I see no reason why Traya cannot extract herself from a duel. If whoever she is fighting is not suddenly attacked by someone else then she can just Force Push them away, kick them away, allow them to stagger her, heck they might be the ones doing the Force Pushing, refer to her duel with Darth Bane for more - this is a discussion that's already been had.

 

At some point, at some time in this duel Traya is going to be in a position to get away, to deny that without any indisputable proof, an absolute certainty that this is not possible is just plain silly.

 

Take the Force Blast for example. Exar Kun has never actually used this power in a combat situation and there is a good reason considering it takes time to charge, time Kun doesn't have considering he has two other duelists attacking him. And even if he does Traya has plenty of time to just get out of the way. Its certainly not going to insta-kill.

 

If you will refer back to the Bane vs. Traya scenario, I did show that Bane would Force Wave to bring her out of it. This is another possible event that could occur in this match.

 

Also, the comic does not depict Kun charging a Force Blast to attack Aleema. And I wasn't referring to mid-combat attacks, this is an avenue he (or anyone) could take when it starts off. Traya isn't the only one who can use the Force right away.

 

Well as I said before if your going to get involved, you have to go the whole way. Saying "I'm not convinced cause reasons" doesn't help anyone at all. Anyway I meant in an abstract sense. If your not prepared to back up your points then I'd appreciate it if you didn't waste my time, its rather frustrating.

 

I have backed up my point. You keep sticking with the same strategy, even though I find it unlikely. Note that I am not saying that Traya won't/can't conceal herself, but you seem to be of the opinion that no one can do anything about it.

 

I fully expect Force Concealment to come into play, I am merely saying that I don't think it will be as effective as people believe it will be.

[Beniboybling]

If you will refer back to the Bane vs. Traya scenario, I did show that Bane would Force Wave to bring her out of it. This is another possible event that could occur in this match.

 

Also, the comic does not depict Kun charging a Force Blast to attack Aleema. And I wasn't referring to mid-combat attacks, this is an avenue he (or anyone) could take when it starts off. Traya isn't the only one who can use the Force right away.

If it were a 1v1 duel, but the point is that because its a four way brawl everyone will be too distracted by each other to attack, if they do then they will simply expose themselves and possibly be injured, working only in Traya's favour.

 

All Traya has to do is get out of range and its a done deal, only luck could get in her way. And the way I see it Kun, Malgus or Vader randomly deciding a throw of a Force-based attack in a random direction as Traya moves in for the kill just because they feel like it and it happening to hit Traya seems very unlikely to me.

 

I'm merely stating what I remember being said. Anyway my argument of course rests on the assumption that Traya can survive the duel for more than a few seconds, which I am prepared to defend. Regardless of how long it takes to charge, if we are to argue that Vader can dodge a bullet he can't see, Traya can easily dodge one she can see.

I have backed up my point. You keep sticking with the same strategy, even though I find it unlikely. Note that I am not saying that Traya won't/can't conceal herself, but you seem to be of the opinion that no one can do anything about it.

 

I fully expect Force Concealment to come into play, I am merely saying that I don't think it will be as effective as people believe it will be.

And I hope you continue to do so. Anyway do not assume that I am in the buisness of making strategies to ensure my favourite character wins, I describe the match the way I see it, and IMO this is a event I see happening.

[Aurbere]

If it were a 1v1 duel, but the point is that because its a four way brawl everyone will be too distracted by each other to attack, if they do then they will simply expose themselves and possibly be injured, working only in Traya's favour.

 

All Traya has to do is get out of range and its a done deal, only luck could get in her way. And the way I see it Kun, Malgus or Vader randomly deciding a throw of a Force-based attack in a random direction as Traya moves in for the kill just because they feel like it and it happening to hit Traya seems very unlikely to me.

 

I'm merely stating what I remember being said. Anyway my argument of course rests on the assumption that Traya can survive the duel for more than a few seconds, which I am prepared to defend. Regardless of how long it takes to charge, if we are to argue that Vader can dodge a bullet he can't see, Traya can easily dodge one she can see.

 

So someone, anyone, won't start with a Force attack? No one is going to go after her first? Is that what you are saying? If so, I find that unlikely. Besides, like in the Bane scenario, if she Force Cloaks mid fight, someone would probably knock her out of it (considering that the whole duel won't be static and they won't get closer as the fight goes on).

 

And I hope you continue to do so. Anyway do not assume that I am in the buisness of making strategies to ensure my favourite character wins, I describe the match the way I see it, and IMO this is a event I see happening.

 

Well, then we have a difference of opinion, I don't see it being a massive impact except in maybe one scenario of many.

[Beniboybling]

So someone, anyone, won't start with a Force attack? No one is going to go after her first? Is that what you are saying? If so, I find that unlikely. Besides, like in the Bane scenario, if she Force Cloaks mid fight, someone would probably knock her out of it (considering that the whole duel won't be static and they won't get closer as the fight goes on).

I'm saying that Traya can endure these attacks because she is a competent and powerful Force User.

 

After all Traya will need to engage possibly even Vader while she scouts out his shatterpoints before briefly concealing and attacking in the space of likely seconds. And honestly in the Bane scenario I feel Traya would have been smart enough to leap out of range before cloaking to avoid such an obvious counterattack.

 

However I doubt it would take long for her to perceive a shatterpoint, not long enough for the fight to spread out.

 

EDIT: But in the instance that she is hit, she'll be blown further out of range and can cloak after she recovers.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

What's to say Traya won't just get stabbed by Vader/Kun, heal herself, and bring herself out of combat that way?

[ShadowMudkip]

1. I read it, its wrong. Which is why I am argueing it here. Real Lighting different not less then Force lightning. Real lightning has a greater electical charge then force Lightning as Real lightning kills faster, but Force lightning has longer effects as it affects people with the force. All-in-all... wrong... just wrong. Even those turned to ash.. took time, I can think of no instance when Force Lightning INSTA killed. No one that i know of has died to it with just a flick UNLESS it was done by Luke or Palp.

 

I'm going to agree with Tune here real lightning should beat force lightning. If FL was better than real lightning, then any person in the SW lore, regardless of how powerful they are, should die to FL if exposed for anything over a couple of seconds. We see people survive longer than that (Jace Malcolm, Luke Skywalker, Vader, the list goes on).

[Beniboybling]

I'm going to agree with Tune here real lightning should beat force lightning. If FL was better than real lightning, then any person in the SW lore, regardless of how powerful they are, should die to FL if exposed for anything over a couple of seconds. We see people survive longer than that (Jace Malcolm, Luke Skywalker, Vader, the list goes on).

Real lightning strikes don't even always kill instantly, in America for example 90% of victims have survived being struck by lightning, I expect those who didn't where holding metal objects or something. Force Lightning with the intention to kill almost always does, at least in terms of non-Force sensitive subjects (who lack Force-based protection) kill the victim. Of course different bolts of lightning possess different voltages, sometimes it can happen over the space of a few seconds, sometimes its immediately after contact, sometimes individuals are reduced completely to ash.

 

But I am confident that if Darth Traya, a very powerful Sith Lord, unleashed a charged bolt of lightning on a non-Force sensitive target they would die instantly, which makes it more powerful than the average lightning strike.

 

I base that evidence off the fact that far less powerful Force Users, random acolytes for example we encounter in KOTOR and SWTOR, who shock their opponents and they die after a few seconds. Traya is infinitely more powerful than these individuals, in the region of someone like Darth Nyriss who's lightning kills instantly. Or Malgus, who could kill multiple armored Jedi opponents with a single burst of lightning and instantly.

 

And then of course we have the lightning of Sidious and Plagueis, of whom mere bolts reduce opponents to ash and/or piles of goo. Which itself demonstrates just have more powerful than lightning the Force can be.

 

Now in terms of the debate at hand. No form of insulation is perfect, and given that it was an upgrade fitted by Vader himself I doubt it covers his body totally, they're will be gaps and they're will be parts where the insulation is thinner which is what Traya will exploit. We should also take into account that Force lightning gives off an immense amount of heat energy, enough to char flesh and melt bone. Concentrated in a single area a bolt of lightning can burn right through the insulation, amplified when the metal of the suit itself becomes superheated as well.

[LordQordisz]

If Vader gets hit with any significant amounts of lightning he loses. Malgus and Kun can use it, and they will be the ones primarily fighting him.

 

What do you mean by significant? I've seen Vader bend a knee to the Force lightning of one beefed up Galen Marek. Not sure there are many people as strong as him. Vader can deal with Force lightning.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I'm going to agree with Tune here real lightning should beat force lightning. If FL was better than real lightning, then any person in the SW lore, regardless of how powerful they are, should die to FL if exposed for anything over a couple of seconds. We see people survive longer than that (Jace Malcolm, Luke Skywalker, Vader, the list goes on).

 

Tbh for Jace, I'm just gonna have to call PIS on that one. Why would Jace be able to survive against Force Lightning, when Jedi(who are superhuman in stats plus having additional protection with innate force barrier) can't?

 

Plus Malgus has already proven the potency of his Force Lighting which is good, good enough to have at least killed Jace right then and there, his armor shouldn't have been a factor.

 

Unless Malgus deliberately held back power in his attack, there is no way Jace should have survived much less being able to pull out a knife and move.

[ShadowMudkip]

What do you mean by significant? I've seen Vader bend a knee to the Force lightning of one beefed up Galen Marek. Not sure there are many people as strong as him. Vader can deal with Force lightning.

 

By significant I mean an extremely potent, prolonged, and undefended against, blast of force lightning. If Vader loses his saber, which has happened before, he cant block force lightning from anyone.

[Beniboybling]

Tbh for Jace, I'm just gonna have to call PIS on that one. Why would Jace be able to survive against Force Lightning, when Jedi(who are superhuman in stats plus having additional protection with innate force barrier) can't?

 

Plus Malgus has already proven the potency of his Force Lighting which is good, good enough to have at least killed Jace right then and there, his armor shouldn't have been a factor.

 

Unless Malgus deliberately held back power in his attack, there is no way Jace should have survived much less being able to pull out a knife and move.

My thoughts exactly really, 9/10 I don't like use PIS but this is just a tad ridiculous.

 

I suppose we could assume that Malgus just got BAMF more powerful but Jace was wearing one heavy plot armor in that video. I mean first he survives getting hit by lightining, then the Sith decide to give him a formal execution giving time for Satele to save him and then he survives from having a grenade blow up in his face with just some scars!

 

LOL.

[Beniboybling]

By significant I mean an extremely potent, prolonged, and undefended against, blast of force lightning. If Vader loses his saber, which has happened before, he cant block force lightning from anyone.

Correction: He can either create a Protection Bubble or block it with his hands via tutanimis.

 

But I still feel he'll fall foul of Traya's invisible bullet.

[Beniboybling]

Hmm, actually I've having second thoughts about Traya going for Vader, I think she'll go for Exar Kun instead. I say that because through shatterpoint Traya could predict fairly instantly pretty much exactly what would happen if one acted on a person in a certain way i.e. whether you give the beggar the money or not. I think we'd all agree that Vader is the only one who can properly challenge Exar Kun, so I suspect she'll see that if she kills Vader, Kun cleans house.

 

I think shatterpoint can come in handy in this way. Or that might be precognition I'm not sure...

[ShadowMudkip]

Real lightning strikes don't even always kill instantly, in America for example 90% of victims have survived being struck by lightning, I expect those who didn't where holding metal objects or something. Force Lightning with the intention to kill almost always does, at least in terms of non-Force sensitive subjects (who lack Force-based protection) kill the victim. Of course different bolts of lightning possess different voltages, sometimes it can happen over the space of a few seconds, sometimes its immediately after contact, sometimes individuals are reduced completely to ash.

 

But I am confident that if Darth Traya, a very powerful Sith Lord, unleashed a charged bolt of lightning on a non-Force sensitive target they would die instantly, which makes it more powerful than the average lightning strike.

 

I base that evidence off the fact that far less powerful Force Users, random acolytes for example we encounter in KOTOR and SWTOR, who shock their opponents and they die after a few seconds. Traya is infinitely more powerful than these individuals, in the region of someone like Darth Nyriss who's lightning kills instantly. Or Malgus, who could kill multiple armored Jedi opponents with a single burst of lightning and instantly.

 

And then of course we have the lightning of Sidious and Plagueis, of whom mere bolts reduce opponents to ash and/or piles of goo. Which itself demonstrates just have more powerful than lightning the Force can be.

 

Now in terms of the debate at hand. No form of insulation is perfect, and given that it was an upgrade fitted by Vader himself I doubt it covers his body totally, they're will be gaps and they're will be parts where the insulation is thinner which is what Traya will exploit. We should also take into account that Force lightning gives off an immense amount of heat energy, enough to char flesh and melt bone. Concentrated in a single area a bolt of lightning can burn right through the insulation, amplified when the metal of the suit itself becomes superheated as well.

 

The reason real lightning doesn't kill its victims (most of the time) is because of the amount of time that it is present. An average bolt of lightning is as hot as the surface of the sun. Because the bolt only lasts for a few milliseconds, it isn't very harmful, and the heat has no time to transfer to the person. Its the same principle as quickly touching a hot pan for a quick second. It wont burn you but it might sting.

 

If Force Lightning is indeed more powerful than real lightning, it should be able to kill anyone without much effort. Which means that all those people I listed before, should have never survived long enough to even scream. If the Force lightning acts fundamentally the same as real lightning, FL should also kill its user, as the heat would be to much to bear. However, if it kills through voltage and not heat, the user would live but the outcome of the victim would be the same. Dead...Every....Single.....Time.

 

Wolf I don't know why Jace survived the lightning.

[Wolfninjajedi]

 

Wolf I don't know why Jace survived the lightning.

 

Plot shenanigans.

[ShadowMudkip]

Plot shenanigans.

 

Exactly

 

Stupid question, whats PIS stand for? Cant remember off the top of my head.

[Aurbere]

Tbh for Jace, I'm just gonna have to call PIS on that one. Why would Jace be able to survive against Force Lightning, when Jedi(who are superhuman in stats plus having additional protection with innate force barrier) can't?

 

Plus Malgus has already proven the potency of his Force Lighting which is good, good enough to have at least killed Jace right then and there, his armor shouldn't have been a factor.

 

Unless Malgus deliberately held back power in his attack, there is no way Jace should have survived much less being able to pull out a knife and move.

 

What kind of armor is he wearing? Adamantium? Unobtainium?

[Wolfninjajedi]

Exactly

 

Stupid question, whats PIS stand for? Cant remember off the top of my head.

 

Plot Induced Stupidity.

 

What kind of armor is he wearing? Adamantium? Unobtainium?

 

Best armor of all, Plot Armor.

 

Also Beni excellent point lol, the Sith have no problems killing the rest of the Troops yet with Jace then try doing it in some ceremonial and exaggerated fashion....during the middle of a battle lol.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

The reason real lightning doesn't kill its victims (most of the time) is because of the amount of time that it is present. An average bolt of lightning is as hot as the surface of the sun. Because the bolt only lasts for a few milliseconds, it isn't very harmful, and the heat has no time to transfer to the person. Its the same principle as quickly touching a hot pan for a quick second. It wont burn you but it might sting.

 

If Force Lightning is indeed more powerful than real lightning, it should be able to kill anyone without much effort. Which means that all those people I listed before, should have never survived long enough to even scream. If the Force lightning acts fundamentally the same as real lightning, FL should also kill its user, as the heat would be to much to bear. However, if it kills through voltage and not heat, the user would live but the outcome of the victim would be the same. Dead...Every....Single.....Time.

 

Wolf I don't know why Jace survived the lightning.

While true, don't forget the purpose of the argument. Milisecond flashes of lightning are potent enough to rip straight through conventional insulation on electricity pylons etc. they wreak havoc with whatever they touch. If all it takes is a little more exposure when applying Force Lightning, I see no reason why it should have similar effects.

 

But remember like I said, different variants of Force Lightning have different effects. Obviously not every variant of Force Lightning from the lowliest of acolytes to a Sith Lord are going to have the same effect. Just as a spark won't be the same as a powerful discharge, we can't talk in blanket terms in regards to something that's different every time.

[Beniboybling]

What kind of armor is he wearing? Adamantium? Unobtainium?

Lamoranium.

[tunewalker]

While true, don't forget the purpose of the argument. Milisecond flashes of lightning are potent enough to rip straight through conventional insulation on electricity pylons etc. they wreak havoc with whatever they touch. If all it takes is a little more exposure when applying Force Lightning, I see no reason why it should have similar effects.

 

But remember like I said, different variants of Force Lightning have different effects. Obviously not every variant of Force Lightning from the lowliest of acolytes to a Sith Lord are going to have the same effect. Just as a spark won't be the same as a powerful discharge, we can't talk in blanket terms in regards to something that's different every time.

 

That last part I ABSOLUTELY agree with. I dont think Traya has strong enough Lightning to do what Real lightning does. I do not think she can instantly kill with Force Lightning. Force Lightning was not her premier ability she was more about Drains and TK, I see no reason to believe her lightning was anything special.

 

Remember the overall strength of the weilder is irrelevant when talking about specific powers. We should not power scale (the idea that some one can wield an ability to the same or greater extent as a lesser Force weilder) Because Force abilities are tailored to each individuals Training, knowledge, understanding, and natural affinity for each individual power. Traya trained herself more in Drains and TK as well as foresight not so much in lightning, and I see no reason why her lightning would be super powerful.

 

While you can call it PIS the truth is much easier to see. Even Non-force Sensitives have the Force to a degree. This is where some one may be considered lucky or what have you. Also, we may have given more credit to Malgus then he deserves. Maybe he just isnt as strong as we thought or at least its proof his lightning isnt. You know shockingly..... we could be..... wrong, crossed nobodies mind? that they possibly made a mistake?

Edited April 20, 2014 by tunewalker

[Selenial]

The reason real lightning doesn't kill its victims (most of the time) is because of the amount of time that it is present. An average bolt of lightning is as hot as the surface of the sun. Because the bolt only lasts for a few milliseconds, it isn't very harmful, and the heat has no time to transfer to the person. Its the same principle as quickly touching a hot pan for a quick second. It wont burn you but it might sting.

 

If Force Lightning is indeed more powerful than real lightning, it should be able to kill anyone without much effort. Which means that all those people I listed before, should have never survived long enough to even scream. If the Force lightning acts fundamentally the same as real lightning, FL should also kill its user, as the heat would be to much to bear. However, if it kills through voltage and not heat, the user would live but the outcome of the victim would be the same. Dead...Every....Single.....Time.

 

Wolf I don't know why Jace survived the lightning.

 

Not quite.

 

Most people survive lightning, because the lightning travels around their body. If the entirety of the bolt went through someone, they'd explode from the water in their body turning to steam in a fraction of a second.

 

The plausible reason as to why Force Lightning is far more deadly, is that it's concentrated into somebody.