The BattleZone! Demo Match: 4-way Brawl

[Selenial]

Ok seeing as I'm gonna have to post about it again, i'll just post the quote to.

 

YES FORCE CONCEALMENT IS A TAXING FORCE TECHNIQUE! Source? HERE!

There, hope that finally clears it up.

 

That quote is taken stupidly out of context.

 

Add the words "Than alter mind" on the end, and that's the real quote,

Big whoop, force camouflage requires more energy than alter mind, so does every combat power the other three will use.

[Wolfninjajedi]

That quote is taken stupidly out of context.

 

Add the words "Than alter mind" on the end, and that's the real quote,

Big whoop, force camouflage requires more energy than alter mind, so does every combat power the other three will use.

 

I wasn't taking it out of context, it still requires a greater deal of concentration and energy, moreso than Alter Mind sure, but that isn't the point. Point being is that it is taxing, I'm just bringing it up cause I saw some posts pondering on weither it was or not.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

Also Traya's real crux Didnt think of this. Traya think Force Drain is unstoppable and there are 2 people in this fight that can defend against it. She is most likely to train and Drain Kun, just to get nothing and to exhaust herself further, since we know that Force Drain has a Large start up cost.

 

Also if she is going to try to conceal herself using Mind tricks to make people not notice her, like others have done with all kinds of people, I am pretty sure I read about Obi-wan, Quigon and or Luke doing it to tusken raiders at one point, then its very unlikely to work against either Kun or Vader, as their mental defenses I think are strong enough to stop Traya.

 

 

Also well if thats the only fight we know for sure she used it in, then it is safe to assume she will do so here. As that IS the biggest most important fight she was in, thus such an important fight here she is likely to use it. Problem is we have no way of knowing what kind of effect it will have, safe to say though with Vader having tanked extremely powerful lightning before wires exposed or not and either recovering from it near instantly, regardless of if his suite was temporarily damaged or not, or just ignoring the most powerful lightning in existance long enough to chuck the wielder off a cliff, with out his suite malfuctioning until after the fact. So clearly it takes concentrated attack to even begin affecting his suite, and considering how Powerful Galen's Lightning seemed to be I dont think any of the combatants here have shown Lightning to the Degree of Galen and Vader Tanked that and stood back up his suite still perfectly functional. If it wasnt he could not stand, and he could not even pick up his lightsaber as his arms and legs would be disabled, yet he is still in fighting shape and near perfect fighting condition going on to take advantage of that fight until Galen* feigned defeat and he dropped his gaurd, even then though the ending seems to suggest Vader lost that fight "on Purpose" to a degree, and potentially could have continued the fight.

 

 

*replace all mentions of Galen with Starkiller.

Edited April 22, 2014 by tunewalker

[Selenial]

I wasn't taking it out of context, it still requires a greater deal of concentration and energy, moreso than Alter Mind sure, but that isn't the point. Point being is that it is taxing, I'm just bringing it up cause I saw some posts pondering on weither it was or not.

 

But that is the point.

 

The entire point of the quote is to say that Force Camoflague is generally useless compared to alter mind. It wasn't intended to say there's a huge cost to it.

[Wolfninjajedi]

But that is the point.

 

The entire point of the quote is to say that Force Camoflague is generally useless compared to alter mind. It wasn't intended to say there's a huge cost to it.

 

What I'm saying is really, it's not something that can just be kept going without draining resources, as what is being suggested that it can be used all willy nilly.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Selenial]

What I'm saying is really, it's not something that can just be kept going without draining resources.

 

Well, obviously

 

But that can be said of all combat situations. Vader's TK, Malgus' Lightning, Kuns.... Pwnage, will drain them more than camo drains Traya.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Well, obviously

 

But that can be said of all combat situations. Vader's TK, Malgus' Lightning, Kuns.... Pwnage, will drain them more than camo drains Traya.

 

Vader has used TK rather casually on big things(starships) with little effort, so it doesn't seem like he strains really much(though this isn't to say he wouldn't be taxed, but he might take time). Malgus and his Lighting....sure I suppose(though I dunno if we have seen many Force Lighting showings from him? I can only think of a few), Kun and his....Force Blasts, sure I would wager that. Though I don't see Kun making use of his Force Blasts anyway, he seemed more like a straight duelist and never applied Force Blasts in combat(as far as I know).

 

Could he though? Sure.

 

Sure they all would get taxed, I was just pointing out Traya just can't use camo all willy nilly like so.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

I think the big thing about camo is, it will tax her just as much as the fighting will tax the others if not more so. After doing so she will need to drain and she will have to have that drain go for Malgus, even though she believes drain is unblockable and she believes Kun is the most powerful and dangerous there. She is most likely going to try to drain Kun have nothing happen except having herself expunge more energy and then slapped down cus she now has nothing left.

 

Vader is the most conservative and most aware of the battle feild. Malgus has tactical tunnel Vision and Kun is over-confident and arrogant and highly agressive, of the 3 Vader will handle the chaotic 1v1v1 the best meaning he will likely stay in the best shape. He is powerful and skilled enough that he can take Kun 1v1 and be about even, but he is smart enough that by the time it boils down to him vs Kun, Kun will be to exhausted to really do anything, while vader will still be fairly fresh.

[Selenial]

I think the big thing about camo is, it will tax her just as much as the fighting will tax the others if not more so. After doing so she will need to drain and she will have to have that drain go for Malgus, even though she believes drain is unblockable and she believes Kun is the most powerful and dangerous there. She is most likely going to try to drain Kun have nothing happen except having herself expunge more energy and then slapped down cus she now has nothing left.

 

Vader is the most conservative and most aware of the battle feild. Malgus has tactical tunnel Vision and Kun is over-confident and arrogant and highly agressive, of the 3 Vader will handle the chaotic 1v1v1 the best meaning he will likely stay in the best shape. He is powerful and skilled enough that he can take Kun 1v1 and be about even, but he is smart enough that by the time it boils down to him vs Kun, Kun will be to exhausted to really do anything, while vader will still be fairly fresh.

Except she's shown herself to have precognitive abilities in battle, and Shatterpoint.

 

She'd see that A, Drain isn't a weakness of Kun's, and B, It would horribly backfire.

[tunewalker]

Except she's shown herself to have precognitive abilities in battle, and Shatterpoint.

 

She'd see that A, Drain isn't a weakness of Kun's, and B, It would horribly backfire.

 

Has she? what battle, beyond standard battle precog? What did she see? at what point has she shown the ability to understand small scale shatter points? when has she used shatter point in combat?

 

 

A person's ability to percieve the future is also dependent on their belief of what is concievably possible to them. This is why the Emperor did not see his down fall in all the possible futures. She believes Force Drain is unblockable, so she will never foresee it NOT working as in her mind that is an impossibilty. We only see what we want to believe.

Edited April 22, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Also Traya's real crux Didnt think of this. Traya think Force Drain is unstoppable and there are 2 people in this fight that can defend against it. She is most likely to train and Drain Kun, just to get nothing and to exhaust herself further, since we know that Force Drain has a Large start up cost.

This "technique" does not seem to be a passive but rather an active power. Or rather its not like Force Barrier that you instinctively switch on when in battle, its something that needs to be applied when the situation arises.

 

Given if either Vader or Kun are struck by Force Drain they will feel its initial effects - the entire process occurring over the space of several seconds - before they can react, they'll be drained, it just won't work twice.

Also if she is going to try to conceal herself using Mind tricks to make people not notice her, like others have done with all kinds of people, I am pretty sure I read about Obi-wan, Quigon and or Luke doing it to tusken raiders at one point, then its very unlikely to work against either Kun or Vader, as their mental defenses I think are strong enough to stop Traya.

Traya's Force concealing techniques did not involve mind tricks, she bends light and sound to render herself invisible and she makes her presence in the Force "very small" to make herself impossible to detect - an ability bolstered when she became in part a wound in the Force. And it seems nigh infallible in its application.

Has she? what battle, beyond standard battle precog? What did she see? at what point has she shown the ability to understand small scale shatter points? when has she used shatter point in combat?

That's actually a good point from Sel, it reminds me of the DS path were Traya assists you in defeating the Jedi masters by telling you the nature of their forms, and how you can exploit their weaknesses. The fact that the Jedi are taken aback by this ability suggests it was more than just intuition. Shatterpoint seems more likely.

A person's ability to percieve the future is also dependent on their belief of what is concievably possible to them. This is why the Emperor did not see his down fall in all the possible futures. She believes Force Drain is unblockable, so she will never foresee it NOT working as in her mind that is an impossibilty. We only see what we want to believe.

A pure and false assumption, funny that you were just lecturing me on those. Edited April 22, 2014 by Beniboybling

[ShadowMudkip]

I feel Traya is more likely to maneuver Vader into attacking Kun and assisting him.She has used Force Lightning in combat, in conjunction with Force Drain.

 

.

 

Even if She helps Vader kill Kun, Vader will see her trying to manipulate the whole battle and will go after her next.

[tunewalker]

This "technique" does not seem to be a passive but rather an active power. Or rather its not like Force Barrier that you instinctively switch on when in battle, its something that needs to be applied when the situation arises.

 

Given if either Vader or Kun are struck by Force Drain they will feel its initial effects - the entire process occurring over the space of several seconds - before they can react, they'll be drained, it just won't work twice.Traya's Force concealing techniques did not involve mind tricks, she bends light and sound to render herself invisible and she makes her presence in the Force "very small" to make herself impossible to detect - an ability bolstered when she became in part a wound in the Force. And it seems nigh infallible in its application.

That's actually a good point from Sel, it reminds me of the DS path were Traya assists you in defeating the Jedi masters by telling you the nature of their forms, and how you can exploit their weaknesses. The fact that the Jedi are taken aback by this ability suggests it was more than just intuition. Shatterpoint seems more likely.A pure and false assumption, funny that you were just lecturing me on those.

 

Its not pure and false when a cited source supporting it was given. Palpatine was an example of it Most Powerful Sith ever and one of the greatest in fore sight. And Yoda has confirmed this is the intent again one of the most power Jedi ever and gifted with fore sight abilities. Not assumption fact back by cited sources from in universe lore.

 

If you have a cited source of in universe lore that shows that this isnt how it works, like i did with power scaling then please show it.

Edited April 22, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Even if She helps Vader kill Kun, Vader will see her trying to manipulate the whole battle and will go after her next.

Well, I have a theory on how she will, and it won't be nearly as that obvious. Edited April 22, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Well, I have a theory on how she will, and it won't be nearly as that obvious.

 

obvious or not, Vader isnt Foolish enough to be manipulated by Traya. She doesnt know him well enough for that.

Edited April 22, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Its not pure and false when a cited source supporting it was given. Palpatine was an example of it Most Powerful Sith ever and one of the greatest in fore sight. And Yoda has confirmed this is the intent again one of the most power Jedi ever and gifted with fore sight abilities. Not assumption fact back by cited sources from in universe lore.

Quotes, examples? Because there are several instances were a Force User has predicted things they did not want to happen, and in some cases things they never expected would happen or believe possible. Sidious included.

 

Force Users can't influence the future, they can only see it.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

Its not pure and false when a cited source supporting it was given. Palpatine was an example of it Most Powerful Sith ever and one of the greatest in fore sight. And Yoda has confirmed this is the intent again one of the most power Jedi ever and gifted with fore sight abilities. Not assumption fact back by cited sources from in universe lore.

 

If you have a cited source of in universe lore that shows that this isnt how it works, like i did with power scaling then please show it.

 

Careful.

Powerful =\= good. That's called power scaling, and that's bad

[Selenial]

Quotes, examples? Because there are several instances were a Force User has predicted things they did not want to happen, and in some cases things they never expected would happen or believe possible. Sidious included.

 

Force Users can't influence the future, they can only see it.

And Traya, she never intended to betray the order before her vision.

[Beniboybling]

Careful.

Powerful =\= good. That's called power scaling, and that's bad

Careful. If you don't agree with Tunewalker's views on power scaling, your a fool.

[Selenial]

Careful. If you don't agree with Tunewalker's views on power scaling, your a fool.

 

But dude, Sidious = Most lawlzapwn at everything ever in the entire history of everything! God forbid someone's actually better than him. Super god forbid it's not a Jedi.

[tunewalker]

Careful.

Powerful =\= good. That's called power scaling, and that's bad

 

This is true, but I dont need power scaling for either of them, if you finished to read instead of trolling like an idiot, you would have seen it say "and one of the most gifted with foresight" but reading i guess is to difficult for you.

 

 

I also said they dont normally see what they cant percieve as a possibility. Those that see something happen even if they dont like it normally percieve it as a possibility at least. None ever foresee there down fall, because many can only believe what they want to, example she in no way predicted that Nihlus and Sion were going to go after her. Sidious percieved every possible outcome of endor.... Save one, Luke refusing to fight. That shows his skill in the matter.

 

 

Yoda... "always in motion is the future" he saw events often except when clouded again scaling not needed, they have feats to measure. If you read you will note I say those things to begin with. Instead you wish to troll instead of meaningful debate.

 

 

Edit: wow 2 people so butt hurt by the thought that Traya isnt all-seeing they cant be bothered to read everything and instead imidiately go to trolling like complete dumb asses. I was being polite today, but hey you guys want to mudsling I am down to party.

Edited April 22, 2014 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

And Traya, she never intended to betray the order before her vision.

 

Never inteded does not mean doesnt percieve as a possibility.

Edited April 22, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Yoda... "always in motion is the future" he saw events often except when clouded again scaling not needed, they have feats to measure.

Am I to take it this is your evidence? No one is denying that, but I fail to see how this proves that one can't predict what one would never expect, or want to happen. Again this is just pure assumption, lets move on.

 

P.S. If expressing a mutual dissatisfaction with your behavior and opinions is "trolling" to you then you need to refamiliarize yourself with the definition.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Your making assumptions about Force Visions based on select examples that are not represented across the board. All your proving is that you can't see everything, Sidious did not predict every outcome of the battle, he had no idea how Luke's conversion would go, all he predicted was that they would come to Endor. There are many possible reasons for this, aside from simple infallibility the Force itself could have been clouding his vision so to ensure its designs were successful. Traya did not perceive her betrayal at the hands of her apprentices no, but it is nowhere stated that she never thought this possible, after all she claimed the alliance was "fragile" and based on "hatred" - she is not stupid.

 

There is a number of reasons for why she could have failed to predict this, one of them being pure infallibility, the other could have been a lack of trying, or maybe the fact that Nihilus was a wound in the Force and Malachor also would have prevented them from predicting their futures, given they used wounds to hide themselves from others.

 

But it is nowhere stated clearly on either accounts, so we cannot assume without a proper basis. If it were universal you might have such a basis. But it is not. Windu for example predicted the Vong invasion and the fall of Coruscant, I doubt he would have perceived Coruscant being turned into a jungle being at all possible. And despite believing Vader would be "more powerful than either of us" Sidious predicted his downfall on Mustafar and rushed to aid him, he didn't even know Kenobi was there. Neither of them considered these events at all "possible", and I'm sure there's more.

 

Again, your taking isolated incidents and trying to make a universal argument out of it. No and no.

[tunewalker]

Am I to take it this is your evidence? No one is denying that, but I fail to see how this proves that one can't predict what one would never expect, or want to happen. Again this is just pure assumption, lets move on.

 

P.S. If expressing a mutual dissatisfaction with your behavior and opinions is "trolling" to you then you need to refamiliarize yourself with the definition.

 

No it was trolling, it was a stab at a person with out any logical reason for being, other then to get that person hyped, hell telling me i need to get refamiliarized isnt helping either if you guys want to have a civil debate when the day starts out, dont start the mud slinging.