The BattleZone! Demo Match: 4-way Brawl

[Beniboybling]

Not my job.

Well, if your not prepared to put your money where your mouth is I suggest you keep it shut.

 

Heh heh, I'm so rude.

 

EDIT: Seriously though, if the only argument against her using this power mid-battle is "she hasn't done it before" then its a moot point and I call shenanigans.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Well, if your not prepared to put your money where your mouth is I suggest you keep it shut.

 

Heh heh, I'm so rude.

 

EDIT: Seriously though, if the only argument against her using this power mid-battle is "she hasn't done it before" then its a moot point and I call shenanigans.

 

I haven't seen an adequate reason for why she would do it, and why no one would react to it in any sensible way.

[Beniboybling]

I haven't seen an adequate reason for why she would do it, and why no one would react to it in any sensible way.

Yet you are not prepared to say why the reasons provided are inadequate and why the no one would act in the way specified. /sigh Whatever... my argument ain't changing.

[Aurbere]

Yet you are not prepared to say why the reasons provided are inadequate and why the no one would act in the way specified. /sigh Whatever... my argument ain't changing.

 

The issue I have is that we are assuming that Traya will just disappear and that her opponents will think: "Hey, she just disappeared. Well, it's obvious that she isn't going to try to ambush any of us in the middle of battle or just wipe out whoever survives. Let's just throw ourselves at each other while we wait for her to come back. Blargh!"

 

Yeah, not convincing me. Seriously, no one thinks that someone is going to see her as the weakest fighter and move to eliminate her. I mean, why are we just assuming that the others will just mindlessly throw themselves at each other like drones, and Traya's just going to yuk it up in the shadows?

 

I'm afraid I'm going to need proof.

[tunewalker]

I think we need to delve into the psyche of all of the combatants to see who they would go for first.

 

 

Exar Kun: He knows none of the combatants, but is arrogant and extremely confident in his martial skills. He respects skill martial artists above all else. Thus Traya is not going to be considered a threat or a challenge in his mind, he is not likely to "waste his time" with her. He will initially view Vader as a cripple and a shell of a man again some one not worth his time. The only person Kun will initially see as worth his time is Malgus.

 

 

Malgus: Respected Diversity and know's Kun by reputation. He will not want to face off against Kun solo, beyond that between Vader and Traya based on what he can initially see he will likely respect Vader more as his stature and mechanical limbs Malgus may see as a sign of strength, adaptibility and knowing ones own weaknesses, while he will view some one with one arm and no prosthetic replacement to be arrogant and foolhardy. For this reason Malgus's first target is likely Traya, because he will want to eliminate the person he isnt willing to work with before teaming up with some one to take down Kun.

 

 

 

Vader: He knows Malgus and Kun by reputation and respects both of them. He does not know Traya as her reputation did not spread. She was part of a shadow war and that was it. As such his first target will likely either be Kun, to test his own strength against the best there, or most likely Traya to get rid of the unknown before dealing with both of what is known to him.

 

 

Traya: She has the advantage of shatter points, here but with this many combatants shatter points can and WILL change through out the conflict making it difficult to take advantage of them. She knows Kun by reputation and again will not challenge him solo, knowing that to be fool hardy. She will see Vader as a shell of a man much like Kun will and will have some respect for Malgus, She will want to team with him to take down Kun and then take him out. Thus her first likely target is Vader.

 

 

 

Now as we can see here, Traya has 2 people likely to go for her first and Kun will be the first person turned on when things go south, BUT all 3 combatants know Kun is some one not to be taken likely, it is equally likely they will gang up on him to start and then proceed from there. If it proceeds from there. Malgus and Vader will go to take on Traya after wards, wanting it to be a test of pure might in the end as such she will be the next one to go down. In a contest between Vader and Malgus, Vader is the likely winner. In this scenario. Vader Wins.

 

 

The next most likely is Malgus, goes for Traya and So does Vader, but Kun intercepts Malgus. Malgus is put onto the defensive as is Traya and both Malgus and Traya die leaving it a contest between Vader and Kun. If Vader is not has not finished off Traya by the time Kun has Finished off Malgus, Kun will help Vader as in the fighting Vader would have earned his respect as a martial artist, thus being the arrogant cocky person he is will want to test himself on Vader. Vader is likely to allow Kun to take the brunt of the work at that point and let Kun exhaust himself so that when they fight Vader takes the edge. If finished at the same time Vader would likely have exhausted himself more so then Kun thus Kun would win, if not then Vader's stall tactic to allow himself to recover means he will win.

 

The Next most likely after that will be Vader goes for Kun and Malgus goes for Traya. A contest only Kun will dislike, and only for a moment till he realizes how good a fighter Vader is. Traya will NOM NOM Malgus allowing her to beat him and still stay in relatively good fighting shape. While Vader and Kun will go all out, Traya will still likely see Kun as the biggest threat and thus go for him helping out Vader, though Vader and Kun may not take kindly to this and kill her out right for interfering. The other likely of course is her help allows Vader to beat Kun, but by how much? He needs to be SERIOUSLY exhausted to be unable to beat Traya. He out-classes her in every category, the same can be said of Kun. Likely winners in this line from top to bottom, Vader, Kun, Traya.

 

Most likely winner from the three scenarios Vader.

 

 

Edit: also... I already did my arguement for Plo Koon......

Edited April 19, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

The issue I have is that we are assuming that Traya will just disappear and that her opponents will think: "Hey, she just disappeared. Well, it's obvious that she isn't going to try to ambush any of us in the middle of battle or just wipe out whoever survives. Let's just throw ourselves at each other while we wait for her to come back. Blargh!"

 

Yeah, not convincing me. Seriously, no one thinks that someone is going to see her as the weakest fighter and move to eliminate her. I mean, why are we just assuming that the others will just mindlessly throw themselves at each other like drones, and Traya's just going to yuk it up in the shadows?

 

I'm afraid I'm going to need proof.

I've already covered that:

 

Anyway what exactly are they going to do? First lets be clear that if Traya takes the time to perceive Vader's shatterpoint while visible, her time invisible will be severely reduced. We are talking minutes, if not seconds, all she has to do if wait for Vader to get caught up in the battle then move herself into place. The others won't exactly in a position to mount a search party, all they can do is keep aware. But that won't be any help because Traya will be masking her presence in the Force as well making her impossible to predict. Again, there is little they can do.

 

Try and make a hyperbolic straw man argument out of it if you like but yes, effectively they will continue to fight each other - being the purpose of the brawl and all - while keeping alert to an inevitable attack. Its the only thing they can do since none of them possess the sense abilities to penetrate her Force concealment while in an engagement.

 

If you think they will all just stop fighting then you'll need to provide some kind of evidence for a hive mind at work here. As far as I'm concerned if one stops fighting, the other will seize the opportunity to attack while they're guard is lowered. Heck they'll probable all to arrogant and self-assured in their abilities to think she could harm them.

 

Indeed Kun, of all people, is going to be the most overconfident and the most rash. I highly doubt he'll regard Traya as much of a threat and will be confident in his own abilities to defend against any attack, instead he'll probably launch an aggressive assault on the others, capitalizing on their distraction and concern and forcing their attention away.

 

If your going to imply that by attacking her she'll be kept occupied then I'd again disagree. In a four way brawl where everyone's opponents are constantly rotating it will be even easier to extract oneself from the battle and make some distance with a Force leap. The fact that Vader and Malgus are slow moving makes this even easier. And assuming that she'll be defeated by them in short order is a discredit to her abilities, she'll put up a fight.

 

The only thing we need proof of is how exactly are they going to stop her? Again the burden of proof is one you I'm afraid, as it is for why she can't and won't use this ability to assist her in a combat situation. I certainly believe that ignoring this power completely is to be willfully ignorant.

 

EDIT: Really we've already had this tiresome discussion in Bane vs Traya, and if I recall in your scenario Traya used Force concealment in to her scenario, so I'm not sure why you've had a sudden change of heart.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Tune, I'm really not sure that anyone will be teaming up with anyone in this situation. Not only are they all Sith, possessing all the attributes that come with it, but they aren't exactly in a position to communicate and make alliances.

 

They'd have to do it purely out of faith, they'd have to just assume that if they try and "team up" the other will reciprocate as opposed to exploit the fact that they lower their guard to them and take them down.

 

All in all though whoever tries to team up first dies first.

[tunewalker]

Tune, I'm really not sure that anyone will be teaming up with anyone in this situation. Not only are they all Sith, possessing all the attributes that come with it, but they aren't exactly in a position to communicate and make alliances.

 

They'd have to do it purely out of faith, they'd have to just assume that if they try and "team up" the other will reciprocate as opposed to exploit the fact that they lower their guard to them and take them down.

 

All in all though whoever tries to team up first dies first.

 

its not about a mutual team up like they talk and team up, its more of an in the chaos of who is going after who, who is a threat to who. Think Mexican Stand-Off in a brawl like this thats what we are looking at.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG0HVLAgnbA This essentially. The three at the start are all on their own side, but in the end, in the chaos, they single out a threat, and try to eliminate it with the thought that once that's eliminated they intend to take each other on.

 

 

First person to make a move is likely Kun, his likely first target is Malgus, as soon as the move is made Traya and Vader may attempt eliminate Kun while he is vulnerable. In the chaos alliances are made without words with out people conciously doing so. Its who is attacking who, who is vulnerable, its battle field tactics, manipulation (Dun Moch) and the 2 best people at this are Vader and Traya. Unfortunately if it came down to Traya vs Vader I dont think she can win. Most scenarios I see Vader winning this.

 

 

 

Edit: also what is the Force Concealment going to actually award her, if she hides its either she has to fight Vader or Kun, both of which she cant Nom Nom and Force Conceal takes a lot of energy there is no Garantee that they would be more exhausted then her. They are very likely to still be able to beat her.

Edited April 19, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

its not about a mutual team up like they talk and team up, its more of an in the chaos of who is going after who, who is a threat to who. Think Mexican Stand-Off in a brawl like this thats what we are looking at.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG0HVLAgnbA This essentially. The three at the start are all on their own side, but in the end, in the chaos, they single out a threat, and try to eliminate it with the thought that once that's eliminated they intend to take each other on.

 

 

First person to make a move is likely Kun, his likely first target is Malgus, as soon as the move is made Traya and Vader may attempt eliminate Kun while he is vulnerable. In the chaos alliances are made without words with out people conciously doing so. Its who is attacking who, who is vulnerable, its battle field tactics, manipulation (Dun Moch) and the 2 best people at this are Vader and Traya. Unfortunately if it came down to Traya vs Vader I dont think she can win. Most scenarios I see Vader winning this.

 

 

 

Edit: also what is the Force Concealment going to actually award her, if she hides its either she has to fight Vader or Kun, both of which she cant Nom Nom and Force Conceal takes a lot of energy there is no Garantee that they would be more exhausted then her. They are very likely to still be able to beat her.

Yes but before all Aang's allies came in it was a three way brawl with no real picture of teaming up going on, everyone was just attacking everyone. The only reason they ganged up on the girl was because with Aang's allies she became the most vulnerable opponent. In this instance there are no allies, so I expect it will be exactly as it was at the beginning. Temporarily two may focus on the same one but that will quickly change before "alliances" can be made.

 

I also expect that fight was filled with a lot more external factors than this totally abstract one.

 

And did you not see my scenario? Traya can use Force Concealment in conjunction with her other powers to kill Vader. This won't necessarily give her the win but I do believe it will be successful if executed properly.

[tunewalker]

Yes but before all Aang's allies came in it was a three way brawl with no real picture of teaming up going on, everyone was just attacking everyone. The only reason they ganged up on the girl was because with Aang's allies she became the most vulnerable opponent. In this instance there are no allies, so I expect it will be exactly as it was at the beginning. Temporarily two may focus on the same one but that will quickly change before "alliances" can be made.

 

I also expect that fight was filled with a lot more external factors than this totally abstract one.

 

And did you not see my scenario? Traya can use Force Concealment in conjunction with her other powers to kill Vader. This won't necessarily give her the win but I do believe it will be successful if executed properly.

 

Some what external, but not much really the only external factor was that Aang and his group had not slept in like 3 days so he was the most vulnerable one at the start technically.

 

This is where I dont think she in any way can be effective in taking Vader down in the way you suggest. He isnt stupid and can stay on gaurd, the Chaos ensuing around him means he is going to be trying to gaurd all his sides as best as possible, and the ONLY time his suit is short circuited by Force lightning is when there is already exposed wires. He has to be injured before the Lightning affects his suite at all.

 

And yes exactly like in my example where the 3 essentially Kun to start, Traya/ Vader may see one or the other as now vulnerable with Kun retaliating to their attack and go after them. Chaos can and will ensue. The people best equiped to handle the chaos of these multi person fights are Traya Malgus and Vader, though if we went on what I KNOW for experience I would give Vader the largest edge here, as he both adapts to the situation he is thrown in to and uses his surroundings to force an advantage when he has none. Vader and Malgus are at home in Chaotic fights, Malgus opponent tunnel Vision though doesnt give him as good a set up as Vader, and Vader's Dun Moch is really going to come in handy here.

 

I honestly dont think Traya's concealment is going actually get her any where honestly. I dont think she is going to catch any one really off gaurd in the chaos that's happening. Its more likely in a 1v1 duel then it is with them all fighting each other, going for maximum coverage and stretching their danger senses to the max.

[Beniboybling]

Some what external, but not much really the only external factor was that Aang and his group had not slept in like 3 days so he was the most vulnerable one at the start technically.

 

This is where I dont think she in any way can be effective in taking Vader down in the way you suggest. He isnt stupid and can stay on gaurd, the Chaos ensuing around him means he is going to be trying to gaurd all his sides as best as possible, and the ONLY time his suit is short circuited by Force lightning is when there is already exposed wires. He has to be injured before the Lightning affects his suite at all.

 

And yes exactly like in my example where the 3 essentially Kun to start, Traya/ Vader may see one or the other as now vulnerable with Kun retaliating to their attack and go after them. Chaos can and will ensue. The people best equiped to handle the chaos of these multi person fights are Traya Malgus and Vader, though if we went on what I KNOW for experience I would give Vader the largest edge here, as he both adapts to the situation he is thrown in to and uses his surroundings to force an advantage when he has none. Vader and Malgus are at home in Chaotic fights, Malgus opponent tunnel Vision though doesnt give him as good a set up as Vader, and Vader's Dun Moch is really going to come in handy here.

 

I honestly dont think Traya's concealment is going actually get her any where honestly. I dont think she is going to catch any one really off gaurd in the chaos that's happening. Its more likely in a 1v1 duel then it is with them all fighting each other, going for maximum coverage and stretching their danger senses to the max.

I was talking about was the obvious past histories, relationships and experiences these people were bringing into the battle. These do not exist here, they have no history with each other and their goal is simply to kill.

 

The issue is though in such a heated battle it is impossible for him to keep completely aware and able to guard from all angles when distracted by his opponents. He cannot defend if his hands and literally full.

 

Also every time Vader's been hit by lightning, damaged or not, he's been notable damaged. So I don't know where you got that from, Vader's suit is not an impenetrable shell and is in fact highly vulnerable to Force lightning attacks. That said shatterpoint will provided a point of entry akin to exposed wires.

 

Yes, there dangers senses will be stretched to the max. Stretched thin that is. When your being attacked from all angles you simply don't have the concentration to think about what's going on outside the battle, multiple attackers as opposed to a single attacker will demand each combatants up most attention as a single slip up could be fatal.

 

Chaos is exactly what Traya will use to pull this off, because when detached from the conflict she can see straight through the chaos with ease, possessing remarkable sense abilities, while her enemies are caught up in it. Think Order 66, one of the reasons why the Jedi were unable to react was because they were caught up in the battle.

 

EDIT: The real issue is though is that he has no idea where the attack is coming from. His danger senses will alert him to the attack but being unable to sense Traya's presence he'll be completely unable to adequately react. If he wasn't being dogged by two other duelists he could throw up a protection bubble, but that isn't an option here. And with Traya likely attacking him while his attention is focused elsewhere he won't even see her coming.

 

Imagine it as an invisible bullet shot from a gun using a suppressor at a vital spot in your body while your being attacked from all sides by three deadly samurai warriors. Then tell me how you defend against that.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Canino]

I'd like to ask you one question, Beni? When has Traya ever shown herself capable to being small and using the force offensively? She was small and talked to council, but that was simply talking. She was small with Mical, and mediated and did other Traya things. However, there is no evidence of her ever using offensive force abilities and being small.

 

Why does this matter? Because all of the combatants here are going to use the force heavily. As soon as he can, Kun will unleash a force blast. And if Traya doesn't want to be disintegrated she will use her force speed to move. Which then bring her back into the minds of her foes.

 

It doesn't have to be a force blast either. An stray force push, mind probe, lightsaber, etc. to close and she will use a force power to escape. Its what she does. And that brings her back into the minds of her foes.

 

Now, you may say that she will attack him with her lightsaber. but lets be honest. If Traya tries to strike Vader down with a lightsaber, she deserves to die.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Canino

[tunewalker]

I was talking about was the obvious past histories, relationships and experiences these people were bringing into the battle. These do not exist here, they have no history with each other and their goal is simply to kill.

 

The issue is though in such a heated battle it is impossible for him to keep completely aware and able to guard from all angles when distracted by his opponents. He cannot defend if his hands and literally full.

 

Also every time Vader's been hit by lightning, damaged or not, he's been notable damaged. So I don't know where you got that from, Vader's suit is not an impenetrable shell and is in fact highly vulnerable to Force lightning attacks. That said shatterpoint will provided a point of entry akin to exposed wires.

 

Yes, there dangers senses will be stretched to the max. Stretched thin that is. When your being attacked from all angles you simply don't have the concentration to think about what's going on outside the battle, multiple attackers as opposed to a single attacker will demand each combatants up most attention as a single slip up could be fatal.

 

Chaos is exactly what Traya will use to pull this off, because when detached from the conflict she can see straight through the chaos with ease, possessing remarkable sense abilities, while her enemies are caught up in it.

 

His curciuts are vulnerable, his suite isnt. His suite has only ever been damaged by lightning when his suite was already damaged by a saber cut. If his suite doesnt have exposed wires it will not be damaged by Force Lightning. His suite's insilation protects against that. (before you go for the whole real lightning vs insilation Force lightning does not equal Real Lightning. Force lightning takes much longer to kill then Real lightning.)

 

Even with the Shatter point, I doubt she will catch Vader off gaurd. He is just as good a Master of chaotic situations, if not MORE SO as Traya is. He has been in more of these multi on Multi fights and came out on top. In this case Vader is more experienced with chaotic battles then Traya is.

 

Even if caught off gaurd, and minor suite damage it may just piss him off and have no detremental affect on his ability to fight. Even if she manages this and they kill Vader, She dies to Kun, her energy has already been sapped to a degree from Force Concealment and Kun isnt going to be easy to bring down.

 

 

And there is to a degree prior relations here, everyone here knowns Exar Kun, Vader knows Malgus and Kun. I covered all of their initial thoughts in my previous post. What their histories are and how they would view each opponent based on what they knew or what they saw. All-in-all there are to many shatter points for Traya to identify, which one to hit. Thus this whole "shatter point identifies Vader weak spot" thing isnt likely to even happen, there are to many shatter points in this match. If she attacked Vader out the gate or maybe even if she waited and then attacked it could backfire and show her mark her vulnerable Vader's defenses are built around defending his suites vulnerable locations, the number of SHIFTING shatter points will be to grand for any one to take advantage of them able to see them or not. Shatter point because of this is USELESS in this match until its down to 1v1, and at that point its to late for Traya.

 

Also there is a difference between shatter points in events and shatter points in peoples armor or abilities. It may be the same power but as i have said MANY times before, different applications are different. She has not been shown to be able to take advantage of small scale Shatter points. She can see the some big pictures and take advantage of those shatter points but she has NEVER to my knowledge been shown taking advantage of shatter points in combat.

 

 

The more I even talk about this the more Traya concealment getting any kind of advantage (or even being successful at concealing herself) just seems to become infinitely less and less likely. There are to many variables and to many assumptions being made about her applications of certain powers or knowledge base. Just because we would doesnt meant the character would. Just because one person using shatter point has doesnt mean all characters using shatter point can. Shatter point tells you something important is there, it doesnt say neccisarily WHAT that something is. Its up to the weilder to identify big shatter points and little shatter points beneficial points and detremental point and ACT on them while they have the chance. Traya has never shown to do this in a combat situation, only on a galactic situation. This leads to the belief that the chaos of battle and the ever shifting shatter points that come with it she is not experienced enough to take advantage of these shatter points.

[Beniboybling]

I'd like to ask you one question, Beni? When has Traya ever shown herself capable to being small and using the force offensively? She was small and talked to council, but that was simply talking. She was small with Mical, and mediated and did other Traya things. However, there is no evidence of her ever using offensive force abilities and being small.

 

Why does this matter? Because all of the combatants here are going to use the force heavily. As soon as he can, Kun will unleash a force blast. And if Traya doesn't want to be disintegrated she will use her force speed to move. Which then bring her back into the minds of her foes.

 

It doesn't have to be a force blast either. An stray force push, mind probe, lightsaber, etc. to close and she will use a force power to escape. Its what she does. And that brings her back into the minds of her foes.

An interesting question. According to Wookieepedia Force Concealement - the type that makes you invisible to the naked eye - takes a great deal of concentration to maintain, so I think its safe to assume (and its how its been portrayed in pretty much every appearance in lore) that the moment she attacks, the spell will disappear.

 

In regards to Force stealth i.e. the type that makes you invisible to the Force, I'd say there is evidence to suggest she can maintain it to a certain extent in combat. I say that because all the time when she was travelling with the Exile, she was concealing her dark side presence from her, and she did a lot of fighting (or we assume she did) alongside her.

 

But concealing one's presence entirely and concealing one's dark side signature are too different things. And I can't think of any instances where an individual has been in combat and been invisible at the same time. But Force Speed is different, its a control feat within the same sphere as concealment and stealth. If Traya is already using too of those powers in conjunction, I see no reason why she cannot implement a third, as well as one of the most basic.

 

That said I think its highly unlikely that Kun will hit her with a stray Force blast, I mean I assume he'll be shooting at the people he can see, not those he can't, and even then it takes time to charge. All she has to do is keep her distance.

 

Oh and that's another thing, I'm pretty sure that when Traya confronted Sion she was concealing herself in the Force. At least that's how it seems with what the darkened lighting, the fact that Sion says he can "sense" rather than see her and the fact that Sion turns around to strike at Traya before she attacks, indicating she was trying to sneak up on him. The only reason that it failed being that Traya had yet to regain her connection to the Force.

[Beniboybling]

His curciuts are vulnerable, his suite isnt. His suite has only ever been damaged by lightning when his suite was already damaged by a saber cut. If his suite doesnt have exposed wires it will not be damaged by Force Lightning. His suite's insilation protects against that. (before you go for the whole real lightning vs insilation Force lightning does not equal Real Lightning. Force lightning takes much longer to kill then Real lightning.)

 

Even with the Shatter point, I doubt she will catch Vader off gaurd. He is just as good a Master of chaotic situations, if not MORE SO as Traya is. He has been in more of these multi on Multi fights and came out on top. In this case Vader is more experienced with chaotic battles then Traya is.

 

Even if caught off gaurd, and minor suite damage it may just piss him off and have no detremental affect on his ability to fight. Even if she manages this and they kill Vader, She dies to Kun, her energy has already been sapped to a degree from Force Concealment and Kun isnt going to be easy to bring down.

 

 

And there is to a degree prior relations here, everyone here knowns Exar Kun, Vader knows Malgus and Kun. I covered all of their initial thoughts in my previous post. What their histories are and how they would view each opponent based on what they knew or what they saw. All-in-all there are to many shatter points for Traya to identify, which one to hit. Thus this whole "shatter point identifies Vader weak spot" thing isnt likely to even happen, there are to many shatter points in this match. If she attacked Vader out the gate or maybe even if she waited and then attacked it could backfire and show her mark her vulnerable Vader's defenses are built around defending his suites vulnerable locations, the number of SHIFTING shatter points will be to grand for any one to take advantage of them able to see them or not. Shatter point because of this is USELESS in this match until its down to 1v1, and at that point its to late for Traya.

 

Also there is a difference between shatter points in events and shatter points in peoples armor or abilities. It may be the same power but as i have said MANY times before, different applications are different. She has not been shown to be able to take advantage of small scale Shatter points. She can see the some big pictures and take advantage of those shatter points but she has NEVER to my knowledge been shown taking advantage of shatter points in combat.

 

 

The more I even talk about this the more Traya concealment getting any kind of advantage (or even being successful at concealing herself) just seems to become infinitely less and less likely. There are to many variables and to many assumptions being made about her applications of certain powers or knowledge base. Just because we would doesnt meant the character would. Just because one person using shatter point has doesnt mean all characters using shatter point can. Shatter point tells you something important is there, it doesnt say neccisarily WHAT that something is. Its up to the weilder to identify big shatter points and little shatter points beneficial points and detremental point and ACT on them while they have the chance. Traya has never shown to do this in a combat situation, only on a galactic situation. This leads to the belief that the chaos of battle and the ever shifting shatter points that come with it she is not experienced enough to take advantage of these shatter points.

1. I strongly suggest you read this. I had hoped to clear this up before it appeared in the BattleZone.

 

Anyway, to address some points specifically:

 

The suit is a conductor of electricity. Vader's suit is made of durasteel, and I'd assume shares similar qualities to steel which can conduct enough electricity to kill. That also means the lightning (which is vastly more powerful than any electrical charge) can pass straight through it and hit the wires. I fail to see how that's not vulnerable.

 

Lets just be clear on that part, Force Lightning > real lightning hands down. Obviously something imbued with the ultimate power of the galaxy is going to be superior to something so mainstream. Force Lightning takes much longer to kill than real lightning? I can't think of any non-Force sensitives who have been stuck by lightning (unleashed with the intention to kill) and haven't died instantly, if not been reduced to ash. And yes, real lightning

insulation.

 

A padded jacket isn't going to stop a pure expression of dark side energy.

 

2. I honestly see no reason why not. Master of chaotic situations? Since when? Since the Conclave on Kessel when Vader was struck in the back when in the process of dispatching another Jedi? A battle in which he almost died and might have actually been killed if not saved by a battalion of Stormtroopers? I'm not convinced. Vader may not be super slow, but he's slower than most I'm afraid and no less vulnerable in such situations as this.

 

3. Unless its not minor, and Traya succeeds in say disabling his re-breather, or shutting off his circulatory system, or short circuiting a limb or too, or scrambling his nervous system, or shutting off his sight, hearing etc. there are so many things that can go wrong in that suit if subject to an electrical charge. Something will get fried. At the very list while he is momentarily stunned (which even non-focused blasts have achieved) he'll get wounded by Malgus or Kun.

 

4. I agree, but I think we should distinguish between actually making alliances, and just choosing to focus on what they percieve as the weakest linking while simultaneously staying out of the way of the strongest. I don't see what this has to do with shatterpoints, in my scenario Traya is not looking for shatterpoints in the battle itself but in a specific object e.g. Vader's suit. That object is static, the shatterpoints don't change and it will be no more difficult for Traya to shatter it than if she wanted to shatter a pane of glass on the floor, the shatterpoints around her are hardly going to distract her.

 

As for shatterpoints in the battle itself, I'd rather not get into that given we have little to no evidence of shatterpoint wielders being able to manipulate the battle itself in such a way. But what we do now is that they can manipulate shatterpoints in static objects just fine in battle, whether that be people of inanimate things. But they don't change. Unless Vader plans on undergoing some sort of metamorphosis, but I don't see that happening somehow.

 

Anyway Shatterpoint is Shatterpoint, its an ability as as far as I'm aware it hasn't been compartmentalized in lore. Windu could see shatterpoints in events and people, and he didn't distinguish between the two. As far as we are aware in terms of the Force these "shatterpoints" operate under the exact same principles, just on different scales. So its akin to say that someone who can see far into the future cannot perceives more immediate futures i.e. not true.

 

5. No your just assuming that because its not matter of fact stated, its not true, a logical fallacy I might add. Your making just as many assumptions as I am by saying she's not capable of these things. We've gone over this a hundred times already, and we've already reach the conclusion she can use shatterpoint in this manner.

[tunewalker]

1. I strongly suggest you read this. I had hoped to clear this up before it appeared in the BattleZone.

 

Anyway, to address some points specifically:

 

The suit is a conductor of electricity. Vader's suit is made of durasteel, and I'd assume shares similar qualities to steel which can conduct enough electricity to kill. That also means the lightning (which is vastly more powerful than any electrical charge) can pass straight through it and hit the wires. I fail to see how that's not vulnerable.

 

Lets just be clear on that part, Force Lightning > real lightning hands down. Obviously something imbued with the ultimate power of the galaxy is going to be superior to something so mainstream. Force Lightning takes much longer to kill than real lightning? I can't think of any non-Force sensitives who have been stuck by lightning (unleashed with the intention to kill) and haven't died instantly, if not been reduced to ash. And yes, real lightning

insulation.

 

A padded jacket isn't going to stop a pure expression of dark side energy.

 

2. I honestly see no reason why not. Master of chaotic situations? Since when? Since the Conclave on Kessel when Vader was struck in the back when in the process of dispatching another Jedi? A battle in which he almost died and might have actually been killed if not saved by a battalion of Stormtroopers? I'm not convinced. Vader may not be super slow, but he's slower than most I'm afraid and no less vulnerable in such situations as this.

 

3. Unless its not minor, and Traya succeeds in say disabling his re-breather, or shutting off his circulatory system, or short circuiting a limb or too, or scrambling his nervous system, or shutting off his sight, hearing etc. there are so many things that can go wrong in that suit if subject to an electrical charge. Something will get fried. At the very list while he is momentarily stunned (which even non-focused blasts have achieved) he'll get wounded by Malgus or Kun.

 

4. I agree, but I think we should distinguish between actually making alliances, and just choosing to focus on what they percieve as the weakest linking while simultaneously staying out of the way of the strongest. I don't see what this has to do with shatterpoints, in my scenario Traya is not looking for shatterpoints in the battle itself but in a specific object e.g. Vader's suit. That object is static, the shatterpoints don't change and it will be no more difficult for Traya to shatter it than if she wanted to shatter a pane of glass on the floor, the shatterpoints around her are hardly going to distract her.

 

As for shatterpoints in the battle itself, I'd rather not get into that given we have little to no evidence of shatterpoint wielders being able to manipulate the battle itself in such a way. But what we do now is that they can manipulate shatterpoints in static objects just fine in battle, whether that be people of inanimate things. But they don't change. Unless Vader plans on undergoing some sort of metamorphosis, but I don't see that happening somehow.

 

Anyway Shatterpoint is Shatterpoint, its an ability as as far as I'm aware it hasn't been compartmentalized in lore. Windu could see shatterpoints in events and people, and he didn't distinguish between the two. As far as we are aware in terms of the Force these "shatterpoints" operate under the exact same principles, just on different scales. So its akin to say that someone who can see far into the future cannot perceives more immediate futures i.e. not true.

 

5. No your just assuming that because its not matter of fact stated, its not true, a logical fallacy I might add. Your making just as many assumptions as I am by saying she's not capable of these things. We've gone over this a hundred times already, and we've already reach the conclusion she can use shatterpoint in this manner.

 

1. I read it, its wrong. Which is why I am argueing it here. Real Lighting different not less then Force lightning. Real lightning has a greater electical charge then force Lightning as Real lightning kills faster, but Force lightning has longer effects as it affects people with the force. All-in-all... wrong... just wrong. Even those turned to ash.. took time, I can think of no instance when Force Lightning INSTA killed. No one that i know of has died to it with just a flick UNLESS it was done by Luke or Palp.

Edited April 19, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

1. I read it, its wrong. Which is why I am argueing it here.

Well, its a shame it didn't cross your mind to respond there so we could reach a consensus before it came up in the BattleZone. Ah well.

 

...I assume you have something more to say?

Real lightning has a greater electical charge then force Lightning as Real lightning kills faster, but Force lightning has longer effects as it affects people with the force. All-in-all... wrong... just wrong.

Your arguments are moot without proof. And this doesn't even cover the whole point. A lightning bolt would probably fry Vader as well. Edited April 19, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Well, its a shame it didn't cross your mind to respond there so we could reach a consensus before it came up in the BattleZone. Ah well.

 

...I assume you have something more to say?

 

I do, give me some time and I will finish the edits. I have much more to say....

 

 

Edit: acutally I have come to the realization argueing anything with you is moot so, just keep your head in the sand I am done with all of this, its not worth the constant circle. The lack of understanding about how powers are used vs what they are is a distinction. The idea that you STILL think shatter point is the same for everyone like.... oh TK if one person can lift something every one can lift it..... no. That Force insight is the same across that because you can see far you can see close.... no these are different applications..... just no. In fictional work if the character has not shown the ability to do something the LARGEST fallacy is to assume they can. It is CORRECT to assume they can not if they have not. It is not in any way a fallacy to say so. Its a waste of my time to do any of these any more because you all have already made up your minds and I just know the star wars universe doesnt work the way you say it does. As our view points are to ratically different wasting time argueing is just that a waste of time.

Edited April 19, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

I do, give me some time and I will finish the edits. I have much more to say....

 

 

Edit: acutally I have come to the realization argueing anything with you is moot so, just keep your head in the sand I am done with all of this, its not worth the constant circle. The lack of understanding about how powers are used vs what they are is a distinction. The idea that you STILL think shatter point is the same for everyone like.... oh TK if one person can lift something every one can lift it..... no. That Force insight is the same across that because you can see far you can see close.... no these are different applications..... just no. In fictional work if the character has not shown the ability to do something the LARGEST fallacy is to assume they can. It is CORRECT to assume they can not if they have not. It is not in any way a fallacy to say so. Its a waste of my time to do any of these any more because you all have already made up your minds and I just know the star wars universe doesnt work the way you say it does. As our view points are to ratically different wasting time argueing is just that a waste of time.

The only fallacy being made here is that seeing shatterpoint in people and seeing shatterpoint in events are mutually exclusive things when as far as we know the principles are exactly the same. Like you said, if you can see far you can see close, if you can see shatterpoints on a large scale, you can see them on a small scale.

 

Never has it even been suggested that it somehow requires more power to do the latter, that would only determined the accuracy. It is an innate talent, you either have it or you don't, you don't get just half of it.

 

And I doubt anyone will agree with you that a Sith Lord can be beaten by a tazer or an arc caster either.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

The only fallacy being made here is that seeing shatterpoint in people and seeing shatterpoint in events are mutually exclusive things when as far as we know the principles are exactly the same. Like you said, if you can see far you can see close, if you can see shatterpoints on a large scale, you can see them on a small scale.

 

Never has it even been suggested that it somehow requires more power to do the latter, that would only determined the accuracy. It is an innate talent, you either have it or you don't, you don't get just half of it.

 

And I doubt anyone will agree with you that a Sith Lord can be beaten by a tazer or an arc caster either.

tazer's have less then Real Lightning.... (lightning and manufactured Electicity is not the same, we have seen jedi disabled through elictricty before) Also, seeing... and reacting are 2 different things. She can see them, but she has never shown the ability to respond to them on a small scale, as small scale shatter points can shift faster and be more difficult to dicern the proper course of action then the far ones.

 

Its like getting a overhead veiw of a battle feild vs getting a ground level in person veiw. The person who has the big veiw can see the over arcing stuff that needs to be done, the person getting only a small picture can not see the what needs to be done in the large scale and can only deal with whats in front of them. She has shown the ability to see big picture and deal with that she has never in ALL OF her fights (of which she has had many) shown the ability to dicern what shatter points need to be done there.

 

In fiction if a character has not done so, it is PROPER to assume they can not. It doesnt matter what you THINK shatter point is or you THINK it should work, different applications and responses are different, different characters are different and as such must be taken into account as such, but like i said getting people to admit that here is a waste of time. The amount of "power scaling" (the idea that because some one can do something because a lesser force user has done so) is rediculous. Force is based on their individual training experiences and understanding, just because shatter point has been used one way by one character does not mean its useable that way by all characters who have it. Its the same way with all powes.

Edited April 19, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

*snip*

 

The point remains, you expect them to act like idiots when one of their opponents just up and vanishes. You say that Traya will conceal herself immediately. One of her opponents just might think of going after her. Heck, Exar Kun may just hit her with a Force Blast like he did to Aleema Keto to remove her from the equation while he engages the actual warriors. Or maybe Vader/Malgus hit her with a Force attack? There are several possibilities, you have focused on just a single scenario. A scenario that I continue to find unlikely.

 

Also, the burden of proof is never on me. This isn't the Kaggath. You have to prove things to me.

 

EDIT: Really we've already had this tiresome discussion in Bane vs Traya, and if I recall in your scenario Traya used Force concealment in to her scenario, so I'm not sure why you've had a sudden change of heart.

 

Additional research. That time between Rounds was devoted to it.

 

Now that that's over. I'm going to chill out. Everybody do the same.

[Beniboybling]

tazer's have less then Real Lightning.... (lightning and manufactured Electicity is not the same, we have seen jedi disabled through elictricty before) Also, seeing... and reacting are 2 different things. She can see them, but she has never shown the ability to respond to them on a small scale, as small scale shatter points can shift faster and be more difficult to dicern the proper course of action then the far ones.

 

Its like getting a overhead veiw of a battle feild vs getting a ground level in person veiw. The person who has the big veiw can see the over arcing stuff that needs to be done, the person getting only a small picture can not see the what needs to be done in the large scale and can only deal with whats in front of them. She has shown the ability to see big picture and deal with that she has never in ALL OF her fights (of which she has had many) shown the ability to dicern what shatter points need to be done there.

 

In fiction if a character has not done so, it is PROPER to assume they can not. It doesnt matter what you THINK shatter point is or you THINK it should work, different applications and responses are different, different characters are different and as such must be taken into account as such, but like i said getting people to admit that here is a waste of time. The amount of "power scaling" (the idea that because some one can do something because a lesser force user has done so) is rediculous. Force is based on their individual training experiences and understanding, just because shatter point has been used one way by one character does not mean its useable that way by all characters who have it. Its the same way with all powes.

To be quite honest the relevancy of this point escapes me, Force Lightning involves the equivalent of an extremely powerful electrical charge powerful enough to kill.

 

Yeah that't real nice, but it doesn't change the fact that Shatterpoint is a singular power.

 

I'm not interested in what you think is proper or not, the fact is that evidence suggests if not outright states that shatterpoint relies on one principle, perceiving breaking points, which can be applied to all and any situations. I see no evidence of different kinds of mastery or skill paths, especially considering it is an innate ability.

 

Therefore if Traya can she shatterpoints in events I see no reason that suggests she can't see shatterpoints in objects and actual people. The fact of the matter is she can perceive flaws, and people and objects have flaws. Your compartmentalizing a power on arbitrary grounds, when it has never been done so in actual lore.

[Beniboybling]

The point remains, you expect them to act like idiots when one of their opponents just up and vanishes. You say that Traya will conceal herself immediately. One of her opponents just might think of going after her. Heck, Exar Kun may just hit her with a Force Blast like he did to Aleema Keto to remove her from the equation while he engages the actual warriors. Or maybe Vader/Malgus hit her with a Force attack? There are several possibilities, you have focused on just a single scenario. A scenario that I continue to find unlikely.

You need to define "acting like idiots" because that just seems empty fluff to me. I'm already provided sufficient argument for why they are incapable of doing much at all.

 

Anyway as I said, in the midst of a choatic battle I see no reason why Traya cannot extract herself from a duel. If whoever she is fighting is not suddenly attacked by someone else then she can just Force Push them away, kick them away, allow them to stagger her, heck they might be the ones doing the Force Pushing, refer to her duel with Darth Bane for more - this is a discussion that's already been had.

 

At some point, at some time in this duel Traya is going to be in a position to get away, to deny that without any indisputable proof, an absolute certainty that this is not possible is just plain silly.

 

Take the Force Blast for example. Exar Kun has never actually used this power in a combat situation and there is a good reason considering it takes time to charge, time Kun doesn't have considering he has two other duelists attacking him. And even if he does Traya has plenty of time to just get out of the way. Its certainly not going to insta-kill.

Also, the burden of proof is never on me. This isn't the Kaggath. You have to prove things to me.

Well as I said before if your going to get involved, you have to go the whole way. Saying "I'm not convinced cause reasons" doesn't help anyone at all. Anyway I meant in an abstract sense. If your not prepared to back up your points then I'd appreciate it if you didn't waste my time, its rather frustrating.

[tunewalker]

To be quite honest the relevancy of this point escapes me, Force Lightning involves the equivalent of an extremely powerful electrical charge powerful enough to kill.

 

Yeah that't real nice, but it doesn't change the fact that Shatterpoint is a singular power.

 

I'm not interested in what you think is proper or not, the fact is that evidence suggests if not outright states that shatterpoint relies on one principle, perceiving breaking points, which can be applied to all and any situations. I see no evidence of different kinds of mastery or skill paths, especially considering it is an innate ability.

 

Therefore if Traya can she shatterpoints in events I see no reason that suggests she can't see shatterpoints in objects and actual people. The fact of the matter is she can perceive flaws, and people and objects have flaws. Your compartmentalizing a power on arbitrary grounds, when it has never been done so in actual lore.

If they specified that she can see them in events and did not specify that they can see them in any thing else, we must conclude that she can only see them in events. Other wise they would have just said "she can see shatter points" instead of "she can see shatter points.... in....." if they must specify then their is a distinction if there is a distinction then there is a difference end of story.

 

Shatter point is a single power, application is different. TK is a singular power that does not mean everyone can lift Star destroyers or that every one that can, can lift multiple small objects they are different applications of the same power.

Edited April 19, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

If they specified that she can see them in events and did not specify that they can see them in any thing else, we must conclude that she can only see them in events. Other wise they would have just said "she can see shatter points" instead of "she can see shatter points.... in....." if they must specify then their is a distinction if there is a distinction then there is a difference end of story.

She did not specify, she never does lol, so I'm afraid that leads nowhere.