The BattleZone! Demo Match: 4-way Brawl

[Wolfninjajedi]

That last part I ABSOLUTELY agree with. I dont think Traya has strong enough Lightning to do what Real lightning does. I do not think she can instantly kill with Force Lightning. Force Lightning was not her premier ability she was more about Drains and TK, I see no reason to believe her lightning was anything special.

 

Remember the overall strength of the weilder is irrelevant when talking about specific powers. We should not power scale (the idea that some one can wield an ability to the same or greater extent as a lesser Force weilder) Because Force abilities are tailored to each individuals Training, knowledge, understanding, and natural affinity for each individual power. Traya trained herself more in Drains and TK as well as foresight not so much in lightning, and I see no reason why her lightning would be super powerful.

 

While you can call it PIS the truth is much easier to see. Even Non-force Sensitives have the Force to a degree. This is where some one may be considered lucky or what have you. Also, we may have given more credit to Malgus then he deserves. Maybe he just isnt as strong as we thought or at least its proof his lightning isnt. You know shockingly..... we could be..... wrong, crossed nobodies mind? that they possibly made a mistake?

 

 

I mean you could go with Malgus getting stronger and later having more powerful Lighting compared to Alderaan sure, but I still don't think that Jace would have been able to survive that.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

That last part I ABSOLUTELY agree with. I dont think Traya has strong enough Lightning to do what Real lightning does. I do not think she can instantly kill with Force Lightning. Force Lightning was not her premier ability she was more about Drains and TK, I see no reason to believe her lightning was anything special.

 

Remember the overall strength of the weilder is irrelevant when talking about specific powers. We should not power scale (the idea that some one can wield an ability to the same or greater extent as a lesser Force weilder) Because Force abilities are tailored to each individuals Training, knowledge, understanding, and natural affinity for each individual power. Traya trained herself more in Drains and TK as well as foresight not so much in lightning, and I see no reason why her lightning would be super powerful.

 

While you can call it PIS the truth is much easier to see. Even Non-force Sensitives have the Force to a degree. This is where some one may be considered lucky or what have you. Also, we may have given more credit to Malgus then he deserves. Maybe he just isnt as strong as we thought or at least its proof his lightning isnt. You know shockingly..... we could be..... wrong, crossed nobodies mind? that they possibly made a mistake?

I believe her lightning is powerful enough to kill non-Force sensitives instantly, which is what lightning does. Claiming that Force Lightning was not one of her primary abilities it totally arbitrary I'm afraid.

 

We have no information on what particular fields of study Traya trained herself more in. Of course given that Force Drain as the signature move of academy it could be assumed it is Traya's signature move, but this is still a tenuous assumption to say she neglected other fields of study because of this. Especially considering she is a former Jedi Consular. I certainly don't know what your basis is for claiming that TK was a greater forte of hers than lightning.

 

So lets not even go there.

 

I really don't want to get bogged down in this debate. The way I see it, Traya is just as capable of unleashing the same level of raw power as Malgus and Nyriss and has done so, Force Lightning relies on raw power almost totally.

 

This debate is ridiculous anyway, you don't need the power of a lightning strike to vaporize insulation. Heck all Traya needs to do is burn a hole. Insulation is not invulnerable and certainly not to Force Lightning.

 

In terms of the PIS come back to us when you can explain how a bolt of Malgus' lightning can kill three armored Jedi yet a prolonged charge can't even take down a non-Force sensitive trooper and we'll talk. It just makes no sense.

 

Your also forgetting one thing, we are always right.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Not quite.

 

Most people survive lightning, because the lightning travels around their body. If the entirety of the bolt went through someone, they'd explode from the water in their body turning to steam in a fraction of a second.

 

The plausible reason as to why Force Lightning is far more deadly, is that it's concentrated into somebody.

Lol, we should start call you Selenial the Science Gal. The Bill Nye of the SWTOR Forums.

[Selenial]

Lol, we should start call you Selenial the Science Gal. The Bill Nye of the SWTOR Forums.

 

I approve

[tunewalker]

Not quite.

 

Most people survive lightning, because the lightning travels around their body. If the entirety of the bolt went through someone, they'd explode from the water in their body turning to steam in a fraction of a second.

 

The plausible reason as to why Force Lightning is far more deadly, is that it's concentrated into somebody.

 

And it takes time, not to mention that it is Force based, thus it has other effects that Electricity DOESNT have. The point is its electrical shock outside of a few individuals is not strong enough to do like Real Lightning and break insillation. It will take more then a tap from Traya to short circuit Vader's suit. The only time his suit has shown vulnerability to Force lightning was when it was already damaged in some way or another. No one has ever hit Vader's undamaged suit with Force lightning and done anything to him. Its only have a saber cut has exposed the wires.

 

And honestly most of this is the point Real Lightning when it strikes, it strikes at around .3x the speed of light, you blink and you missed it and yet it can send people to hospitals with them in bad condition from nano seconds of exposure. While with force lightning it takes full on multiple seconds if not occassionally a full minute to kill. 100's of times longer exposure. Clearly showing that Force Lightning electrical charge is much less then Real Lightnings for most Force users.

 

I see no reason to believe Traya is different. Like I said she was trained and focused her understanding on Drain, TK, Telepathy, and Foresight. Her Lightning abilities were never toated about in game or in any cut scene. Even if she is more powerful then some one like Nyriss we cant assume that she has the same level of lightning. Thats power scaling, Power scaling is a very bad thing to do in the Star Wars universe. Its like Traya is more powerful then Corran Horn.......so Traya has a better Tutaminis, thats not neccissarily true. As I have said in the past, we need to take what they did and compare it that way and in this case, traya is NOT known for her lightning, Vader is NOT known for dropping to Force Lightning with out his suit already being damaged. Some one is NOT known for being able to conceal themselves when they use a Force based attack. Just gathering the energies for the attack should break them out of the Concealment so there will be no "invisible bullet" there may be a short time to react bullet, but it wont be invisible, and who ever fires said bullet is going to be the first one taken out, because everyone that doesnt eat it is going to see that and go..... not letting that person do it to me they die now.

[tunewalker]

I believe

 

you believe... you believe based on what? fanboyism.... you have given no reason to believe this other then.... a derp derp Traya is powerful and she has lightning thus she can do with lightning what others have done with it a derp derp.... thats called power scaling..... you cant power scale with the Force as each persons ability in every single ability is tailored to their specific training and understanding.

 

Oh and did it SHOW him killing those 3 Jedi or did it just tell..... if it just told, how do you know it wasnt prolonged exposure? Did it say it was quick? Quick by what terms, speed is relative. Its very possible he had elongated exposure on them and still called quick by the standards of Force Lightning.

 

 

 

Power Scaling= the thought that some one can do the equivlant of a lesser character.

 

I have already explained a lot of why you cant use power scaling as an arguement, ever. You can not assume Traya can do everything Malgus can do, you cant assume she can do everything Nyriss can do. If it was just raw power it wouldnt take fully trained sith to pull it off, and any Dark Jedi or jedi turned evil might use it instinctually, but they never do. Even if it is just raw power, I can still go into points with abilities that are just like that with the whole "raw power" idea but some are better then others at them even though those others are "more powerful".... seriously just stop power scaling. Stop pretending like every character can do everything lesser characters have done just because they are "more powerful" the force DOESNT WORK THAT WAY.

Edited April 20, 2014 by tunewalker

[Selenial]

I see no reason to believe Traya is different. Like I said she was trained and focused her understanding on Drain, TK, Telepathy, and Foresight. Her Lightning abilities were never toated about in game or in any cut scene. Even if she is more powerful then some one like Nyriss we cant assume that she has the same level of lightning. Thats power scaling, Power scaling is a very bad thing to do in the Star Wars universe. Its like Traya is more powerful then Corran Horn.......so Traya has a better Tutaminis, thats not neccissarily true. As I have said in the past, we need to take what they did and compare it that way and in this case, traya is NOT known for her lightning, Vader is NOT known for dropping to Force Lightning with out his suit already being damaged. Some one is NOT known for being able to conceal themselves when they use a Force based attack. Just gathering the energies for the attack should break them out of the Concealment so there will be no "invisible bullet" there may be a short time to react bullet, but it wont be invisible, and who ever fires said bullet is going to be the first one taken out, because everyone that doesnt eat it is going to see that and go..... not letting that person do it to me they die now.

Power Scaling is perfectly valid, IMO, if it's a power like Force Lightning, Telekinetics, etc, as these powers are all about Raw power in the force, not knowledge of Sorcery.

 

Sure, creating lightning fields etc is knowledge based, but direct bolts of lightning are pretty much Raw power, at least it seemed that way when described by Plo Koon.

[tunewalker]

Power Scaling is perfectly valid, IMO, if it's a power like Force Lightning, Telekinetics, etc, as these powers are all about Raw power in the force, not knowledge of Sorcery.

 

Sure, creating lightning fields etc is knowledge based, but direct bolts of lightning are pretty much Raw power, at least it seemed that way when described by Plo Koon.

 

No its not.... if it were Dark Jedi would use them left and right. Koon had an unnatural affinity for it so for him its just his power, others take knowledge, and it doesnt matter whether it takes knowledge or not as I already said Plo Koon had an unnatural affinity for it, it also takes affinity for something...

 

 

POWER SCALING IS THE WORST POSSIBLE THING YOU CAN DO WHEN ARGUEING CHARACTERS IN THE STAR WARS UNIVERSE BECAUSE THE FORCE DOESNT WORK THAT WAY. I HAVE ALREADY SHOWN MULTIPLE EXAMPLES OF THIS ACROSS SEVERAL OF THESE THREADS, AND THE ONLY ARGUEMENT AGAINST WHY YOU SHOULDN'T DO SO BASED ON CANNON FACTS HAS BEEN NUH UH, CUS ITS A RAW POWAS WHEN I ALREADY SHOWED PEOPLE USING RAW POWAS HAVING DIFFERENT AFFINITY FOR THOSE POWAS AND THUS LESSER CHARACTERS DOING BETTER THEN STRONGER CHARACTERS.

 

 

Like I said this whole thing is a waste of my time, I understand every characters ability to be uniquely theirs as the NJO PROVED was the truth, and all of it has never been disputed through out the entirety of the SW franchise, but fanboys just love their power scaling. It doesnt matter what universe they are fans of, be it SW, DB, or anything else where power is seen, always assume that every character that is "stronger" can always do what lesser characters can do simply because they are "stronger" forgetting everything the series and the franchise as a whole has taught them about how individuals are different and unique, about how some ones skills and abilities are tailored to their own natural affinities and training.... The franchises go out of their way to almost blantantly say this in multiple areas and incarnations, yet power scaling the greatest fallacy some one can preform when talking about fictional worlds that have shown they frown on it, is still so darn prevalent.

 

 

 

Edit: I hope all this ranting, gets to at least the right person, I know it will never reach Beni or Sel, because lets face it, you two have always had your mind made up especially about Traya, but I am hoping some one out there can take the blinders off just enough to take every character at face value, instead of just seeing The Force as the samething for everyone every where and the only thing that matters is your power....... Here is a funny thought for you Sel and Beni...... what power, besides lightning (though even it doesnt fall under that catagory as much as is being toated), would you say that traya is known for that is based purely on raw power.... Force Drain.... no....... TK....... not really, she moved multiple small objects that takes knowledge not power......... Telepathy....... no.... Foresight....... no..... So what makes you think she has Raw Power? The list? The one that we put together and is in no way cannon? The list that takes into account knowledge and understanding along with Raw power instead of just Raw power? Because if it was just Raw power the top 4 should be Luke, Leia, Anakin, and Galen as the 4 of them have the greatest connection to the force of any one and thus the most "Raw Power".

Edited April 20, 2014 by tunewalker

[Wolfninjajedi]

Wait so I'm a little at a loss here of what's going on. So...what's being said, if character A is able to move a ship yet character B just moves a rock using TK, that doesn't show that character A is > to B and that they can all do what everyone else does?...Or? Edited April 20, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Selenial]

No its not.... if it were Dark Jedi would use them left and right. Koon had an unnatural affinity for it so for him its just his power, others take knowledge, and it doesnt matter whether it takes knowledge or not as I already said Plo Koon had an unnatural affinity for it, it also takes affinity for something...

 

 

POWER SCALING IS THE WORST POSSIBLE THING YOU CAN DO WHEN ARGUEING CHARACTERS IN THE STAR WARS UNIVERSE BECAUSE THE FORCE DOESNT WORK THAT WAY. I HAVE ALREADY SHOWN MULTIPLE EXAMPLES OF THIS ACROSS SEVERAL OF THESE THREADS, AND THE ONLY ARGUEMENT AGAINST WHY YOU SHOULDN'T DO SO BASED ON CANNON FACTS HAS BEEN NUH UH, CUS ITS A RAW POWAS WHEN I ALREADY SHOWED PEOPLE USING RAW POWAS HAVING DIFFERENT AFFINITY FOR THOSE POWAS AND THUS LESSER CHARACTERS DOING BETTER THEN STRONGER CHARACTERS.

 

 

Like I said this whole thing is a waste of my time, I understand every characters ability to be uniquely theirs as the NJO PROVED was the truth, and all of it has never been disputed through out the entirety of the SW franchise, but fanboys just love their power scaling. It doesnt matter what universe they are fans of, be it SW, DB, or anything else where power is seen, always assume that every character that is "stronger" can always do what lesser characters can do simply because they are "stronger" forgetting everything the series and the franchise as a whole has taught them about how individuals are different and unique, about how some ones skills and abilities are tailored to their own natural affinities and training.... The franchises go out of their way to almost blantantly say this in multiple areas and incarnations, yet power scaling the greatest fallacy some one can preform when talking about fictional worlds that have shown they frown on it, is still so darn prevalent.

 

Force Lightning doesn't take Knowledge though.

 

Never has it been stated that using Force Lightning requires knowledge, and Nowhere has it been stated that Plo Koon had an affinity for it.

 

There are many times when Jedi, who have had no training in it, have released huge bolts of energy. Plo koon for one, or Luke Skywalker in a Non Canon, but still respectable battle on Hoth. He gave into his anger and produce sith lightning so strong it was red...

Edited April 20, 2014 by Selenial

[Selenial]

Wait so I'm a little at a loss here of what's going on. So...what's being said, if character A is able to move a ship yet character B just moves a rock using TK, that doesn't show that character A is > to B and that they can all do what everyone else does?...Or?

 

The A not > B thing is what Tune is saying, I'm saying Force Lightning is basically a power that doesn't require much knowledge or skill, it's about unleashing pure power.

[Aurbere]

Just a point: Plo Koon does describe his Force lightning as an innate talent of his. Which does make sense considering.

[tunewalker]

Wait so I'm a little at a loss here of what's going on. So...what's being said, if character A is able to move a ship yet character B just moves a rock using TK, that doesn't show that character A is > to B and that they can all do what everyone else does?...Or?

 

here let me put it to you this way..... If Cihgal can lift a Rock... yet Corran Horn can NOT lift a rock, this does not mean that Chigal has greater Tutaminis abilities then Corran Horn......

 

 

Bassically just because character A > B in one aspect does not mean A > B in ALL aspects.

 

Power scaling is the idea that one character can do EVERYTHING a lesser character can do to the same extent or potency as that "lesser" character.

 

 

Edit: Sel and Beni are assuming that because Traya> Malgus in things such as drain Tk and Telepathy that Traya > Malgus in lightning as well. As my show with Cihgal and Corran Horn just now... I have proven that is not neccisarrily true as the force doesnt work that way.

Edited April 20, 2014 by tunewalker

[Wolfninjajedi]

here let me put it to you this way..... If Cihgal can lift a Rock... yet Corran Horn can NOT lift a rock, this does not mean that Chigal has greater Tutaminis abilities then Corran Horn......

 

 

Bassically just because character A > B in one aspect does not mean A > B in ALL aspects.

 

Power scaling is the idea that one character can do EVERYTHING a lesser character can do to the same extent or potency as that "lesser" character.

 

Ah kk, got ya now.

[Aurbere]

Tune and Sel, you both have valid points, but we should decide whether or not Force lightning is an ability based on raw power or not.

 

Personally, I agree with Sel on that front. Two-bit Acolytes wouldn't be using lightning if this wasn't the case.

[Selenial]

here let me put it to you this way..... If Cihgal can lift a Rock... yet Corran Horn can NOT lift a rock, this does not mean that Chigal has greater Tutaminis abilities then Corran Horn......

 

 

Bassically just because character A > B in one aspect does not mean A > B in ALL aspects.

 

Power scaling is the idea that one character can do EVERYTHING a lesser character can do to the same extent or potency as that "lesser" character.

 

 

Edit: Sel and Beni are assuming that because Traya> Malgus in things such as drain Tk and Telepathy that Traya > Malgus in lightning as well. As my show with Cihgal and Corran Horn just now... I have proven that is not neccisarrily true as the force doesnt work that way.

 

Entirely irrelevant comparison.

 

Traya CAN use Force Lightning, has studied in the Jedi Temple as a historian, learning estoric and even prohibited powers from the Archive. Then studied in the greatest Nexus of all time.

 

She's reached the point where Teaching doesn't mean anything, even if Force Lightning is a skill that requires knowledge, she's passed it.

 

A more likely comparison is, Traya has great foresight abilities, better when on Malachor, because she has access to more power. Same with Lightning, Traya and Malgus have learnt the same, she has more power, hers is more potent.

[tunewalker]

Tune and Sel, you both have valid points, but we should decide whether or not Force lightning is an ability based on raw power or not.

 

Personally, I agree with Sel on that front. Two-bit Acolytes wouldn't be using lightning if this wasn't the case.

Anakin would if it was..... and which "two bit" acolyte used it? TK is based on knowledge and understanding as well, yet everyone uses it just not to the same degree thats the whole point power scaling is ALWAYS bad in star wars.

Edited April 20, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Oh and did it SHOW him killing those 3 Jedi or did it just tell..... if it just told, how do you know it wasnt prolonged exposure? Did it say it was quick? Quick by what terms, speed is relative. Its very possible he had elongated exposure on them and still called quick by the standards of Force Lightning.

 

Deceived, in which Malgus does insta-kill two Padawans and a Jedi Knight with a stream of lightning. A quick burst, so to say.

[tunewalker]

Entirely irrelevant comparison.

 

Traya CAN use Force Lightning, has studied in the Jedi Temple as a historian, learning estoric and even prohibited powers from the Archive. Then studied in the greatest Nexus of all time.

 

She's reached the point where Teaching doesn't mean anything, even if Force Lightning is a skill that requires knowledge, she's passed it.

 

A more likely comparison is, Traya has great foresight abilities, better when on Malachor, because she has access to more power. Same with Lightning, Traya and Malgus have learnt the same, she has more power, hers is more potent.

 

Assuming he has no affinity for it or hasnt taken lightning to a further degree then traya.... OH WAIT.... he uses Force Maelstrom which is called the next stage of evolution in Force Lightning..... has Traya.... NO.... so clearly he HAS taken farther.... oh my imagine that.

[tunewalker]

Deceived, in which Malgus does insta-kill two Padawans and a Jedi Knight with a stream of lightning. A quick burst, so to say.

 

It was in text form right?..... so Speed is relevant. Quick is quick based on how long it normally takes, unless you are talking about a moment in the trailer that I missed if so please link it to me

[Aurbere]

It was in text form right?..... so Speed is relevant. Quick is quick based on how long it normally takes, unless you are talking about a moment in the trailer that I missed if so please link it to me

 

The book describes him sending a burst of lightning at the Jedi Knight. The lightning also hits two Padawans mid flight.

 

Here's the excerpt:

 

Malgus, not to be outdone, picked a Jedi Knight at random, a human female ten meters away, held forth his left hand, and discharged veins of blue lightning from his fingertips. The jagged lines of energy cut a swath through the battle, harvesting two Padawans as they went, until they caught up to the Jedi Knight and lifted her off her feet.

 

She screamed as the lightning ripped into her, her flesh made temporarily translucent from the dark power coursing through her. Malgus savored her pain as she died.

[tunewalker]

The book describes him sending a burst of lightning at the Jedi Knight. The lightning also hits two Padawans mid flight.

 

Here's the excerpt:

 

Veins multiple.... it lifts her off the ground that takes time.... he wallows in her pain, this suggests there was time to wallow and that there was pain, she did not die instantly there was a decernable amount of time there if she died instantly it would have been nearly no pain and she would not have needed to be lifted off the ground.

Edited April 20, 2014 by tunewalker

[Selenial]

Assuming he has no affinity for it or hasnt taken lightning to a further degree then traya.... OH WAIT.... he uses Force Maelstrom which is called the next stage of evolution in Force Lightning..... has Traya.... NO.... so clearly he HAS taken farther.... oh my imagine that.

 

Next level powers have absolutely nothing to do with the base.

 

Literally nothing.

 

By this logic, Traya is better than every shatterpoint user who ever lived, because she managed to perceive it on Galactic scale. And by this logic, her skill in single point shatterpoint is better than Windu's.

 

By This logic, Nox > Tyranus in the skills of lightning. A foolish statement if ever there was one.

[Selenial]

Veins multiple.... it lifts her off the ground that takes time.... he wallows in her pain, this suggests there was time to wallow and that there was pain, she did not die instantly there was a decernable amount of time there if she died instantly it would have been nearly no pain and she would not have needed to be lifted off the ground.

 

You're focussing on the wrong part.

 

The veins of lightning ripped through 2 padawans in the time it took to get to the Jedi.

 

Not targetted, focused on first etc, ripped through on their way to.

[Selenial]

Anakin would if it was..... and which "two bit" acolyte used it? TK is based on knowledge and understanding as well, yet everyone uses it just not to the same degree thats the whole point power scaling is ALWAYS bad in star wars.

 

No he wouldn't. He choked people for the sole reason they could still talk, and writhe, whilst he choked them. He only ever used it as a torture interrogation method, of which Lightning would be far harder to use. That, and Choking isn't detectable by the Jedi, Lightning would be.