I had a premonition last night

[Jiminison]

Kinetic needs a little more boost,actually doesn't our tank form penalize our dps like 5% if so maybe time to remove that penalty after you spec to top of tree.

[DarthSpekulatius]

Kinetic needs a little more boost,actually doesn't our tank form penalize our dps like 5% if so maybe time to remove that penalty after you spec to top of tree.

 

KC does enough DPS for PVE and i doubt such a small increase would matter in PVP even if the survivability (tankyness if that's a correct word) was fine.

 

also, we are discussing possible nerfs here not buffs.

[Altheran]

I think all this "Shadow/Assassin burst is good it will be nerfed someday" that we often see in the PvP forums (and remotely here as well), is bullcrap.

Shadows'/Assassins' burst is way overrated.

 

What my Infiltration Shadow do with Force Breach plus Project plus Shadow Strike, my Vigilance Guardian do with Plasma Brand plus Overhead Slash plus first half of Master Strike.

Maybe Plasma Brand will result with a weaker oomph because it's half DoT but my Guardian as also the other half of Master Strike, and auto crit Blade Storm, and possibly a procced Dispatch.

 

The only offensive thing that my Guardian has not, is a CD that make the crit likely. But his burst isn't potentially lower... on the contrary, I can maintain my equally worth burst for a longer time.

It just need to go against regular RNG, unlike Shadows who almost skip RNG checks sometimes, but not all of the time.

And when it fails at RNG, my Guardian's burst hits are still actually something, unlike my Shadow's which will only be "another random hit".

 

Shadow's burst really isn't much better than a Vigilance Guardian's, and Vigilance Guardians aren't known for their impressive burst.

[DarthSpekulatius]

guardians have this huge reliance on the Master strike channel though. Shadows don't have a channeled ability (one of the main reasons why i like the class so much).

[Altheran]

But it roots the target, so channeling is not really an issue.

 

In addition, I only need the first 1.5s (two first hits) to achieve something similar of one Shadow's "big hitters", so the third hit, although the biggest one, is only bonus at that point. I can be controlled for all i care, a good burst has already been thrown.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Altheran

[DarthSpekulatius]

But it roots the target, so channeling is not really an issue.

 

In addition, I only need the first 1.5s (two first hits) to achieve something similar of one Shadow's "big hitters", so the third hit, although the biggest one, is only bonus at that point. I can be controlled for all i care, a good burst has already been thrown.

 

still while you channel you can't move out of AOE damage that isn't all that important in PVP because AOE is either unavoidable or it barely tickles but in PVE NIM there are a lot of aoe cycles that you'd be better avoiding. if it wasn't for the incredible Mobility i'd argue Balance spec should do at least 200dps more then Scrappers and Vigilance (because it requires such a long setup + the target needs to survive ~16 to 20 seconds) but one has to stand still a lot and the other has the Positional requirement that can be really buggy. you activate it, the animation happens the GCD occurs but there's no damage)

 

there's no reason why Infiltration should do any less damage then Scrappers in PVE though.

 

edit: talking about how to buff things is such an old topic it's no fun at all. possible nerfs are much more interesting it's hard to find something they could reasonably nerf taking both PVP and PVE into account and even harder to find a justification.

I have full confidence in the Devs to find things to nerf and justify it on Paper, their Track record for doing exactly that is just to good to doubt them.

Edited April 16, 2014 by DarthSpekulatius

[Aelanis]

But it roots the target, so channeling is not really an issue.

 

In addition, I only need the first 1.5s (two first hits) to achieve something similar of one Shadow's "big hitters", so the third hit, although the biggest one, is only bonus at that point. I can be controlled for all i care, a good burst has already been thrown.

 

Okay, so your first two hits of Master Strike do, what, 7-9k damage? Let's take a look at the PVP burst I have with my Shadow vs my Guardian:

 

Shadow: Breach (7k) + Project (5k) + Shadow Strike (4.5-9k) + Low Slash (2k) + Mind Crush + Shadow Strike (3.5k + 3k +4.5-9k) + Project (3-5k) + Shadow Strike (4.5-9k) + Breach (7k) + Shadow Strike (3k-6k) + Project (5k)

 

That's 51k low end, 70.5k high end, damage over 15.5 seconds.

 

Guardian: Overhead Slash (3.5-7k) + Master Strike (10k-18k) + Plasma Brand (2-3k + 3k) + Blade Storm (3.5k) + Dispatch (3.5-7k) + Overhead Slash (3.5-7k) + Master Strike (10k-18k) + Force Sweep (2-3k) + Saber Throw (2-3k)

 

Thatks 43k low end, 72.5 high end, damage over 15 seconds.

 

Yes, Vigilance top end damage rivals Infiltrations, but it involves you not getting stunned before that last Master Strike hit, and involves you critting on almost every ability, which just isn't that likely. Shadows have an insane crit rate thanks to Potency, which is why their burst is so scary. You can't shield any of it, and you know they're going to land a lot of crits in a row.

[Xinika]

I think all this "Shadow/Assassin burst is good it will be nerfed someday" that we often see in the PvP forums (and remotely here as well), is bullcrap.

Shadows'/Assassins' burst is way overrated..

This times a million. It's honestly funny, considering Infiltration isn't even our best spec at the moment.

[Altheran]

Okay, so your first two hits of Master Strike do, what, 7-9k damage? Let's take a look at the PVP burst I have with my Shadow vs my Guardian:

 

Shadow: Breach (7k) + Project (5k) + Shadow Strike (4.5-9k) + Low Slash (2k) + Mind Crush + Shadow Strike (3.5k + 3k +4.5-9k) + Project (3-5k) + Shadow Strike (4.5-9k) + Breach (7k) + Shadow Strike (3k-6k) + Project (5k)

 

That's 51k low end, 70.5k high end, damage over 15.5 seconds.

 

Guardian: Overhead Slash (3.5-7k) + Master Strike (10k-18k) + Plasma Brand (2-3k + 3k) + Blade Storm (3.5k) + Dispatch (3.5-7k) + Overhead Slash (3.5-7k) + Master Strike (10k-18k) + Force Sweep (2-3k) + Saber Throw (2-3k)

 

Thatks 43k low end, 72.5 high end, damage over 15 seconds.

 

Yes, Vigilance top end damage rivals Infiltrations, but it involves you not getting stunned before that last Master Strike hit, and involves you critting on almost every ability, which just isn't that likely. Shadows have an insane crit rate thanks to Potency, which is why their burst is so scary. You can't shield any of it, and you know they're going to land a lot of crits in a row.

You assumed Breach and Project being crit twice. They can be automatic crit only once. So there's at least 5K too much in their "lower end" output.

Once these extra damage removed from the "lower end", it's finally very similar.

 

Now if you consider not having Force Potency (because you've been maintained in combat) your next burst will be lower in both "lower end" and "higher end"... And neither the Shadow and the Guardian has better crit chances than the other one.

 

In addition, while it's true that Vigilence has to deal with two more crit RNG, the Shadow has to deal with Infiltration Tactics RNG, the Technique RNG* (you're not even sure that the last Breach will be that hard).

At the same time the only RNG on Vigilence side is Dispatch, and given the number of burns* and Master Strike, it's almost a given.

 

*You didn't account for the technique damage neither the burns damage from Overhead Slash and Blade Storm... let's call it even.

 

PS : And Plasma Brand hit harder than 3K in frontload crit. My Partisan Guardian does that on a dummy... So with actual PvP gear plus weapon bolster, that will be higher.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Altheran

[Aelanis]

You assumed Breach and Project being crit twice. They can be automatic crit only once. So there's at least 5K too much in their "lower end" output.

Once these extra damage removed from the "lower end", it's finally very similar.

 

Now if you consider not having Force Potency (because you've been maintained in combat) your next burst will be lower in both "lower end" and "higher end"... And neither the Shadow and the Guardian has better crit chances than the other one.

 

In addition, while it's true that Vigilence has to deal with two more crit RNG, the Shadow has to deal with Infiltration Tactics RNG, the Technique RNG* (you're not even sure that the last Breach will be that hard).

At the same time the only RNG on Vigilence side is Dispatch, and given the number of burns* and Master Strike, it's almost a given.

 

*You didn't account for the technique damage neither the burns damage from Overhead Slash and Blade Storm... let's call it even.

 

PS : And Plasma Brand hit harder than 3K in frontload crit. My Partisan Guardian does that on a dummy... So with actual PvP gear plus weapon bolster, that will be higher.

 

I can actually guarantee Breach and Project crit twice each. There's a 15 second effective cooldown on Potency with the set bonus and Potent Shadows, and if you're not precasting Potency before a fight, you should be, as it lasts 20 seconds. And my gear needs a bit of an upgrade on my Guardian, so it probably does hit harder. I just took my PVE numbers and reduced them a little bit to make up for the change to PVP (less stat + expertise %s balance).

 

You're right, though, we can't do much in a prolonged fight. We have to pick and kill our targets selectively, and never engage more people than we think we can kill in 15-30 seconds.

[sithBracer]

I think all this "Shadow/Assassin burst is good it will be nerfed someday" that we often see in the PvP forums (and remotely here as well), is bullcrap.

Shadows'/Assassins' burst is way overrated.

 

What my Infiltration Shadow do with Force Breach plus Project plus Shadow Strike, my Vigilance Guardian do with Plasma Brand plus Overhead Slash plus first half of Master Strike.

Maybe Plasma Brand will result with a weaker oomph because it's half DoT but my Guardian as also the other half of Master Strike, and auto crit Blade Storm, and possibly a procced Dispatch.

 

The only offensive thing that my Guardian has not, is a CD that make the crit likely. But his burst isn't potentially lower... on the contrary, I can maintain my equally worth burst for a longer time.

It just need to go against regular RNG, unlike Shadows who almost skip RNG checks sometimes, but not all of the time.

And when it fails at RNG, my Guardian's burst hits are still actually something, unlike my Shadow's which will only be "another random hit".

 

Shadow's burst really isn't much better than a Vigilance Guardian's, and Vigilance Guardians aren't known for their impressive burst.

 

The problem is, no one knows how to play against a shadow so they QQ about them. Those that try to play as a shadow realize it is a lot tougher than just spamming tracer missiles, or leap + smash or just stand planted and use ambush or series of shots. They usually end up just spamming maul, getting killed and giving up on the class. Yet, the QQ continues. They stand in one place, face tank us, spam one move and complain when we kill them.

 

Concealment got its mega nerf, and I feel like we are next, so I am gonna try to enjoy this time as much as I can before moving onto my jugg/sorc/mando.

[AlrikFassbauer]

The problem is, no one knows how to play against a shadow so they QQ about them.

 

I tend to agree to that.

 

But : Shadows and Assassins are the far preferred class of those people who like to be at the top of the score boards and love to pwn everyone.

 

To me, this means that they might kind of exploit the fact that no-one knows how to survive the "burst phase" of any Shadow / Assassin.

 

Even worse, I could imagine Assassin / Shadow players especially focus on inexperienced players - and those with low competence. Because low competence -> bigger biurst - bettern pwnage -> bigger ego -> more QQ & whining from the other side.

 

I really can't say, but I fear that the play style (no more "hit & run" but rather "exploit & pwn") might make people whine about Assassins and Shadows. The psychology factor.

 

One totally crazy thought : Shadow / Assassin class representatives could post a guide in the PvP forums : "How to survive an Shadow's / Assassin's burst."

The whining & QQ would immediately stop.

 

Same would go for similar class guides, like "how to survive a PT." Of course posted by the best class players.

[Xinika]

I

 

I really can't say, but I fear that the play style (no more "hit & run" but rather "exploit & pwn") might make people whine about Assassins and Shadows. The psychology factor.

Yup, the class isn't even that good in the slightest. Subtly mediocre.

 

One totally crazy thought : Shadow / Assassin class representatives could post a guide in the PvP forums : "How to survive an Shadow's / Assassin's burst."

The whining & QQ would immediately stop.

 

Hi -> refer to this thread

[sithBracer]

But : Shadows and Assassins are the far preferred class of those people who like to be at the top of the score boards and love to pwn everyone.

 

Assassins on average do not top the scoreboards. The only time I get on top is if I have long battles with sorc healers, or the rest of my team is subpar. When I queue with the stronger VGss/gunslingers/mandos on my server, they always get higher damage than me. One of the reasons behind this is that we spend more time running around the wzs in stealth (slow) to get to other nodes, the other is that we don't have the sustained damage for long term battles, such as battles in mid. When it comes to immediate burst, shadows are amazing. We are a bazooka that is only good for one shot, pretty much. When I play against a very good team in places like hypergates, I feel very useless compared to when I play with other characters.

 

To me, this means that they might kind of exploit the fact that no-one knows how to survive the "burst phase" of any Shadow / Assassin.

 

Not really exploitation to use the only real weapon at your disposal. Shadows are horrible in "mid" battles.

 

Even worse, I could imagine Assassin / Shadow players especially focus on inexperienced players - and those with low competence. Because low competence -> bigger biurst - bettern pwnage -> bigger ego -> more QQ & whining from the other side.

 

Very few people think like that, you are, as always being paranoid. As a shadow there are 3 things we need to watch out for in mid fights:

1. healers

2. lone ranged players

3. enemies with low health-we are amazing finishers.

(for me a special #4, people who I play with because ganking them is fun, we even have a laugh about it after fights lol).

 

I really can't say, but I fear that the play style (no more "hit & run" but rather "exploit & pwn") might make people whine about Assassins and Shadows. The psychology factor.

 

People whine because they get killed, they get killed because they don't understand this class. They don't understand this class because they don't play it.

 

One totally crazy thought : Shadow / Assassin class representatives could post a guide in the PvP forums : "How to survive an Shadow's / Assassin's burst."

The whining & QQ would immediately stop.

 

Xinika posted a guide. No one read it.

I posted a very long strategical explanation giving many different variables, I just got a "haha you can't beat sorcs U Suk" or "snipers are OP of course they can beat anyone" reply. No one even understood the underlying theme is to keep distance, keep them slowed, root when they force speed, keep them dotted and have a special plan for the one time they use shroud (easily noticeable).

 

Same would go for similar class guides, like "how to survive a PT." Of course posted by the best class players.

 

The guide for that is simple: "get way from him when he uses Kolto Overload for 8 seconds".

Edited April 16, 2014 by sithBracer

[helpmewin]

Lol if they nerf only 1 playable spec in PvP i think i will play 1 day in a week on youtube. Edited April 17, 2014 by helpmewin

[ArchangelLBC]

It would be insanely illogical.

 

Which is the most convincing argument that that's exactly what they'll do.

[Jiminison]

If anything Kinetic could use a little more of a dps boost

[Evolixe]

If anything Kinetic could use a little more of a dps boost

 

What?

 

Shadows are already the strongest "dps" tanks out there.

 

Have you seen what happens if you spec combat in DPS gear?

You ravage through people like a knife through butter..

Edited May 3, 2014 by Evolixe

[Aelanis]

If anything Kinetic could use a little more of a dps boost

 

lolwut? I can pull almost 1600 DPS on Nefra as a tank. Together, my co-tank and I count as a halfway decent DPS in Dread Forged gear, which is fairly ridiculous, and makes it so, so easy on our DPS to make DPS checks. No, we really don't need a buff to damage.

 

On an on-topic note, that premonition couldn't have been farther from the truth, and I'm so excited for these changes to go live

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

lolwut? I can pull almost 1600 DPS on Nefra as a tank. Together, my co-tank and I count as a halfway decent DPS in Dread Forged gear, which is fairly ridiculous, and makes it so, so easy on our DPS to make DPS checks. No, we really don't need a buff to damage.

 

On an on-topic note, that premonition couldn't have been farther from the truth, and I'm so excited for these changes to go live

 

Yep, i cant wait to change my Sin Tank to a Madness Sin for PvE and PvP, time to actually have fun as a stealther again since they killed Operatives in PvP and PvE for Concealment.

[Aelanis]

Yep, i cant wait to change my Sin Tank to a Madness Sin for PvE and PvP, time to actually have fun as a stealther again since they killed Operatives in PvP and PvE for Concealment.

 

Not sure why you think they killed Concealment in PVE. Last I checked, it was doing fine.

[sithBracer]

You all didn't want to believe it, but now it is a reality. Just one release later (since 2.10 contains the class changes from 2.9). Edited August 12, 2014 by sithBracer

[Aelanis]

You all didn't want to believe it, but now it is a reality. Just one release later (since 2.10 contains the class changes from 2.9).

 

It's a nerf only if you could have 2-3 shotted them. After the 4th global, you've used the same moves between 2.9 and 2.10, and your next Breach is coming sooner in 2.9. You are also going to be doing more damage with your Technique, and using fewer Saber Strikes (by just a little). They nerfed us only in extremely short fights, anything past the first few seconds is a very large buff.

[sithBracer]

It's a nerf only if you could have 2-3 shotted them. After the 4th global, you've used the same moves between 2.9 and 2.10, and your next Breach is coming sooner in 2.9. You are also going to be doing more damage with your Technique, and using fewer Saber Strikes (by just a little). They nerfed us only in extremely short fights, anything past the first few seconds is a very large buff.

 

PvP are short fights. It's about whoever can burst down the other guy faster. Players don't have 20M hp and they do not turn their backs to you attack just attack the guy who taunted them. I had a PT burst me down in 5 GCDs (ironically for 2 of those GCDs I used voltic slash to get my procs up).

[TACeMossie]

PvP are short fights. It's about whoever can burst down the other guy faster. Players don't have 20M hp and they do not turn their backs to you attack just attack the guy who taunted them. I had a PT burst me down in 5 GCDs (ironically for 2 of those GCDs I used voltic slash to get my procs up).

 

So after GCD 2, why didn't you just hit Resilience/Force Shroud to remove all the DoTs, and make you immune to everything he had except hammer shots? Resilience/Shroud screws over Pyro PTs/Assault VGs like no tomorrow

Edited August 14, 2014 by TACeMossie