Class Imbalance: Real or Perceived?

[malachyg]

I think there will always be a class or two which is more powerful than the others and it actually makes the game more interesting because what a class lacks in power it makes up for in utility. PvP is about completing objectives as a team. Some people describe PVP solely in terms of how many kills can be achieved or how much damage can be dished out by a given class which totally misses the point. Numerical data actually reveals very little where objectives are concerned.

 

Different classes are supposed to have different skill sets with their accompanying strengths and weaknesses. The alternative is to homogenise the classes and render PvP mind numbingly boring.

Edited April 10, 2014 by malachyg

[sithBracer]

ob ... jec .. what? Is it something like killing the other guy?

[L-RANDLE]

I think there will always be a class or two which is more powerful than the others and it actually makes the game more interesting because what a class lacks in power it makes up for in utility. PvP is about completing objectives as a team. Some people describe PVP solely in terms of how many kills can be achieved or how much damage can be dished out by a given class which totally misses the point. Numerical data actually reveals very little where objectives are concerned.

 

Different classes are supposed to have different skill sets with their accompanying strengths and weaknesses. The alternative is to homogenise the classes and render PvP mind numbingly boring.

 

Part of the issue is the game is already homogeneous. The shining examples are DPS classes having taunts, and healers having a multitude of CC. In the end killing people is the best way to accomplish objectives, so since everyone already does have the same tertiary stuff, more or less, the damage/heal/kill is constantly QQd about.

 

My .02 Dataries

[funkiestj]

Part of the issue is the game is already homogeneous. The shining examples are DPS classes having taunts

 

tangent:

patch notes

Guardian

 

• Challenging Call now immediately reduces threat by a moderated amount while not in Soresu Form.
  

Is that above only for PvE? I.e. AoE taunt in PvP is still a taunt outside of Soresu Form?

 

It does seem reasonable to me to require you enter tanking stance to do an AoE taunt.

[Benets]

I think there will always be a class or two which is more powerful than the others and it actually makes the game more interesting because what a class lacks in power it makes up for in utility. PvP is about completing objectives as a team. Some people describe PVP solely in terms of how many kills can be achieved or how much damage can be dished out by a given class which totally misses the point. Numerical data actually reveals very little where objectives are concerned.

 

Different classes are supposed to have different skill sets with their accompanying strengths and weaknesses. The alternative is to homogenise the classes and render PvP mind numbingly boring.

 

Really hard if you go for objectives but die in 3 seconds. Bioware have dumb staff as DEV, seems that after a patch to "balance" game looks even more imbalanced

[sauerkraut]

Really hard if you go for objectives but die in 3 seconds. Bioware have dumb staff as DEV, seems that after a patch to "balance" game looks even more imbalanced

 

Completing the Obj without dieing is PvE, in PvP you die. Get used to it. If you die in 3 sec get different gear, build, or roll a different class.

[Kerensk]

Really hard if you go for objectives but die in 3 seconds. Bioware have dumb staff as DEV, seems that after a patch to "balance" game looks even more imbalanced

Dying in 2 GCDs means you were focused. Having 3 people focus you because you were dumb enough to try to solo a node is an L2P issue.

 

Try using some teamwork like the guys that blasted you.

[NathanielStarr]

Class imbalance is real though I think this patch helped it some, at least Operative healers are killable without having to use half your team to do it.

 

It feels like a lot of classes can be tanks while being dps still though. I think it's because being a tank is mostly passive and you can easily gain access to enough defenses to make a difference without losing anything.

 

Lets be honest here those Powertechs aren't all as skilled as they think they are.

Edited April 11, 2014 by NathanielStarr

[Vid-szhite]

tangent:

patch notes

 

Is that above only for PvE? I.e. AoE taunt in PvP is still a taunt outside of Soresu Form?

 

It does seem reasonable to me to require you enter tanking stance to do an AoE taunt.

 

It is still a pvp taunt no matter what. The change was for PvE only.

[StrikePrice]

Sometimes a class is OP ... healing operative before 2.7 (I play a healing operative) for example. But, the general problem is twofold. First ...

 

Rock: Nerf paper, scissors are fine.

Paper: Nerf scissors, rock is fine.

Scissors: Nerf rock, paper is fine.

 

Also, in PVP there is a massive difference between great players and pretty good players. There are great players who always make the right decisions, always use the right tool at the right time and know the enemy so well that they know what their target is going to do before the target does. This type of player can make a class look OP when it really is not.

[MotorCityMan]

WIthout some sort of matchmaking, pvp will forever be unbalanced. Asking for balanced instances is nothing new. PvE players have long demanded and received balance in their instances. If their is even a hint of imbalance in a pve instance, it warrants a hotfix. But Pvp players are thrown into an instance with no thought whatsoever for team balance and expected to "have fun". One mismatch after another occurs. Either mmo game companies don't think that devoting resources to pvp balance is profitable, or they are just inept, or both.

[maverickmatt]

WIthout some sort of matchmaking, pvp will forever be unbalanced. Asking for balanced instances is nothing new. PvE players have long demanded and received balance in their instances. If their is even a hint of imbalance in a pve instance, it warrants a hotfix. But Pvp players are thrown into an instance with no thought whatsoever for team balance and expected to "have fun". One mismatch after another occurs. Either mmo game companies don't think that devoting resources to pvp balance is profitable, or they are just inept, or both.

 

It would seem that the very large disparity between skill levels plays a major role in the determination to nerf or buff a class for the sake of balance.

 

Games cater to casual players, knowing that the top % will always make better use of the buffs that were intended to normalize performance of a class or spec across the various skill ranges.

 

However, as was the case with Sawbones and Focus and pre 2.0 PTs (and a handful of others), when even the newest and most casual players can dominate.. something is awry and warrants a nerf. I suspect the same will happen to some other class or spec in the very near future.

 

TL: DR

 

Until everyone has exactly the same proficiency level, there will be no true balance. They can achieve relative balance but that doesn't seem to be what people are demanding.

Edited April 11, 2014 by maverickmatt

[MotorCityMan]

 

Games cater to casual players, knowing that the top % will always make better use of the buffs that were intended to normalize performance of a class or spec across the various skill ranges.

 

 

While this sounds plausible, there is no actual evidence of it, only interpretation. One could just as easily argue that gear grinds, premading, rankings, and rewards are catered to those that play more often.

 

Skill is the holy grail of tournament play to determine who is best, but not of continuous ongoing pvp. For that you can look to what pro sports leagues know and who have billions of dollars at stake. They have found that parity among teams generates the most fan interest and participation. And that has nothing to do with "catering to casuals".

Edited April 11, 2014 by MotorCityMan

[chillshock]

90% perceived - especially by dps-players who didn't kill that guy wich they totally should have because of <gear/class/their awesomeness>.

 

10% is actually valid.

 

Like when sorc healers mention concern about their pvp capabilities compared to operatives. Everyone can see that. And every DPS who tried to kill any half-skilled-operative healer will agree. (not BAD op healers, before someone comes along and gives statements as "I kill them all the time" - so do I. But just the bad ones!). It also does not mean, that a sage heal is an easy kill if he's good. But compared to the op? HAH!

 

So when everyone sais: Op healer >>>>>>>> Sorc Healer. That should be a clue. If the leaderboards align, double that.

[Benets]

Completing the Obj without dieing is PvE, in PvP you die. Get used to it. If you die in 3 sec get different gear, build, or roll a different class.

 

This is exectly the issue, "roll a differnet class" so, this game's balance is garbage. No one, no matter what should die in 3 seconds with full expertise, pvp was much better at 1.0 at lower levels.

 

So this game will be like WoW when they launch DK, i saw a lot things like 13 DK in a BG of 15 players. And then they nerfed DK things began to get backl to normal.

 

This balance here is stupidy, made by stupid DEVs, that think its nice class that do much more burst with isntant skills, have better armor, and better defensive cooldowns and ofensive tools.

 

This is for stupids

[AlrikFassbauer]

Dying in 2 GCDs means you were focused. Having 3 people focus you because you were dumb enough to try to solo a node is an L2P issue.

 

Try using some teamwork like the guys that blasted you.

 

Translation : "We are Borg. Resistance is futile. Play like we do and you will win."

 

Also, in PVP there is a massive difference between great players and pretty good players. There are great players who always make the right decisions, always use the right tool at the right time and know the enemy so well that they know what their target is going to do before the target does. This type of player can make a class look OP when it really is not.

 

I agree to that. However, people being so well getting matched against what most of you call "bads" is in my eyes nothing more than farming, and it's in my opinion a testament of the poor matchmaking system, too.

 

Skill is the holy grail of tournament play to determine who is best, but not of continuous ongoing pvp. For that you can look to what pro sports leagues know and who have billions of dollars at stake. They have found that parity among teams generates the most fan interest and participation. And that has nothing to do with "catering to casuals".

 

I agree to this as well.

 

In football / soccer, no top tier team is allowed to play against an bottom tier team. In SWTOR PvP, it is allowed - and exploited.

 

This is exectly the issue, "roll a differnet class" so, this game's balance is garbage.

 

Yes. And when everyone is rerolling towards - perceived - "better" classes, the game begins to shift to one side ...

Even worse if the classes people reroll to are *actually* better ...

Edited April 12, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[AlrikFassbauer]

or roll a different class.

 

People complain about the homogenization of PvP in this game, but self-homogenization is just as bad, meaning if everyone is forced to play a limited number of builds then isn't that the same thing?

 

The coin has 2 sides ...

Edited April 12, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[Brunner_Venda]

Deception sins are way over the top, there's nothing 'perceived' about it. Too much burst. Too many stuns, and a new stun in 2.7!

 

PT powertechs are a close second on the OP train. TD should never have been buffed after 2.0.

 

You can keep buffing classes until everyone can stun lock and three shot kill everyone else, but that's not fun.

 

Get with the nerfs

Edited April 12, 2014 by Brunner_Venda

[Kerensk]

PT powertechs are a close second on the OP train. TD should never have been buffed after 2.0.

 

I had to check the date to see if this thread was 6 months old.

PT Powertechs are the 2nd most OP class now?! Nobody mentioned it in the meetings...

[HeckdadddyG]

Deception sins are way over the top, there's nothing 'perceived' about it. Too much burst. Too many stuns, and a new stun in 2.7!

 

PT powertechs are a close second on the OP train. TD should never have been buffed after 2.0.

 

You can keep buffing classes until everyone can stun lock and three shot kill everyone else, but that's not fun.

 

Get with the nerfs

 

Oh look another person who says classes should get nerfed because they have no idea how to handle said class...

[AlrikFassbauer]

Oh look another person who says classes should get nerfed because they have no idea how to handle said class...

 

How, please, do I handle 2-3 Assassins focusing me at the same time, oh wise one ?

[NathanielStarr]

How, please, do I handle 2-3 Assassins focusing me at the same time, oh wise one ?

 

well you shouldn't be able to handle multiple people on you at once. That said I agree with you about Assassins. They could probably handle 2 to 3 of some classes on them, depending on the classes. Also, it's a very hard fight to one on one with an assassin in almost any class, you just hope he's bad because you lose a contest of equal skill unless you are an assassin also.

[Andrew_Past]

How, please, do I handle 2-3 Assassins focusing me at the same time, oh wise one ?

 

You don't. If you're not getting support from your team, you shouldn't be able to survive focus fire from 3 of any dps spec for long. The key here is to fight their teamwork with your own.

[Lexlo]

I think the "class imbalance" is coincidentally a balance of both being "real" or "perceived". At the moment, I think it's falling a little on the perceived side.

 

There are *some* problems with class performance, but I believe it stems from certain classes under-performing due to "excessive" class limitations / "un-involved gameplay" rather than "X" class being OP. Most players can't distinguish between these two sides of the balance spectrum and jump to conclusions quickly.

 

 

Though I will admit in certain cases, yeah..."X" class or ability needs to be toned down. Right now, I don't really see anything that is overly powerful besides Focused Defense. But if I'm being honest, I think the problems I currently have with FD is a L2P issue. It simply hasn't existed long enough for me to adapt to it in combat. Once I discover how to play against it on each of my characters, I'll probably endorse its existence.

[Sangrar]

well you shouldn't be able to handle multiple people on you at once. That said I agree with you about Assassins. They could probably handle 2 to 3 of some classes on them, depending on the classes. Also, it's a very hard fight to one on one with an assassin in almost any class, you just hope he's bad because you lose a contest of equal skill unless you are an assassin also.

 

I just range them 1v1, makes my electronet really come in handy, they can't do much from beyond 10 meters away

 

Seriously happened to me several times, including some of the really good geared guys, they are easy to take out from a distance and I can deal with keeping them at a distance once electronet expires.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Sangrar