Congratulations, Bioware, you´ve managed to screw Concealment up beyond redemption.

[Maxajax]

"Should," or "did"?

 

 

 

This is true. It doesn't prevent a win, but it can delay your opening salvo.

 

 

 

That's... all good teamwork, honestly. DPSers ganging up on someone going for their healer is pretty rare, since they tend to tunnel vision the other DPS before noticing they aren't seeing any green numbers -- and they may never notice the lack of healing because bad DPS are that used to dying.

 

DPSers ignoring the healers in favor of the DPS is also pretty common, even before the patch -- DPS are kind of dumb like that. It's not a conscious decision of "oh hey, that healer is harder to kill than his DPS", it's just the way DPS fight -- they like nothing more than to kill each other, and when the other team's DPS is of superior quality, your DPS will get rolled and theirs will rout you. I'd sooner blame your teammates for bad equipment than attribute it to weak healing. If your DPS and tank get killed so fast that the enemy DPS would rather hit them first, there's just nothing any healer can do to save them. All Medicine lost here was Surgical Probe spam, and if you've reached that point, their death is almost always inevitable.

 

 

 

Jugg Tanks are defensive monsters in this patch. Don't forget that Enraged Defense got significantly buffed and is now roughly 5 times as powerful as it was before -- Jugg Tanks were already very hard to kill, and they got even better at surviving, as now they have a VERY strong self heal. The fact that you came close is not a slant on Operative DPS at all -- the fact that you almost had him before help could arrive is on its own commendable.

I would advise you both to refrain from looking at this in a team perspective. The Operative class never had much survivability in such scenarios. if you want to play like that, load your 55 Assa.

 

I will point out for the new addition to Operative gameplay that being "Delayed" as you cal it, or as i like to call it, being pushed back, stunned, and zapped to the point where I can not outDPS the Sage even i I somehow catch up with the ****er when he pops force slow on me once his stun runs out. Effectively these little "Delays" as you would describe them, are what a veteran Concealment player calls "Game over, man". The point where we hit Evasion + Cloaking Screen and then stare broodingly at the guard while 2 teammates run in from mid to help him. These little "Delays" last longer than the runtime of the stun against ranged opponents that kite, and VS a good Jug or Mara it means getting Force Push - Saber Throw - Force Jump and then a DPS routine in your face. It does not only "Delay" us, it eliminates any chance of victory.

[Maxajax]

He just hit 55 today. I'll reserve further comments until I get him kitted out in augmented Obroan, as I am with my Juggernaut.

So let me get this straight.

 

Your Operative hit 55 today.

 

You, someone who mains a clas that does not stealth, have not gotten to play a Concealment operative consistently for at least half a year before the nerf, and you have the guts to come here and call this... dilapitated vestige of a once somewhat decent glass cannon that relied on it's alpha a "Whirlwind of death", and expect us not to think you are full of it based on the fact that your main has the same gear as my HK-51?

 

How do you expect to make an unbiased comparison between PRE 2.7 and POST 2.7 if you did not do level 55 Warzones as a concealment operative before they pulled the plug?

 

From my point of view, running into someone's funeral and taking a dump in the open casket would probably be less offensive than what you just did. In fact, what you just did is pretty much comparable to taking a dump on someone's corpse. Namely the Concealment Operative. I ask you kindly to leave this thread and let us mourn our DPS spec in peace. Go rub your hands over the buff to the Jug's vengeance spec in the Juggernaut subforum or something.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Maxajax

[Crujido]

Pop stun breaker

Use snare

Call help

Useless

 

Honestly shocked.

[Maxajax]

Pop stun breaker

Use snare

Call help

Useless

 

Honestly shocked.

 

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6518804480/h6B5BAB9F/

[Vid-szhite]

So let me get this straight.

 

Your Operative hit 55 today.

 

You, someone who mains a clas that does not stealth, have not gotten to play a Concealment operative consistently for at least half a year before the nerf, and you have the guts to come here and call this... dilapitated vestige of a once somewhat decent glass cannon that relied on it's alpha a "Whirlwind of death", and expect us not to think you are full of it based on the fact that your main has the same gear as my HK-51?

 

How do you expect to make an unbiased comparison between PRE 2.7 and POST 2.7 if you did not do level 55 Warzones as a concealment operative before they pulled the plug?

 

From my point of view, running into someone's funeral and taking a dump in the open casket would probably be less offensive than what you just did. In fact, what you just did is pretty much comparable to taking a dump on someone's corpse. Namely the Concealment Operative. I ask you kindly to leave this thread and let us mourn our DPS spec in peace. Go rub your hands over the buff to the Jug's vengeance spec in the Juggernaut subforum or something.

 

If it was that much better than what I'm playing right now, it deserved to be nerfed. I'm still doing great in regs and my op's a fresh 55 with only 2 pieces of pvp gear. You want to mourn, great. Just don't delude yourselves into thinking it ever died in the first place.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Vid-szhite

[Maxajax]

If it was that much better than what I'm playing right now, it deserved to be nerfed. I'm still doing great in regs and my op's a fresh 55 with only 2 pieces of pvp gear. You want to mourn, great. Just don't delude yourselves into thinking it ever died in the first place.

 

http://i.imgur.com/ArhaZUP.png

 

That's the amusing thing. Since you never played it, you don't understand that even with the old version, it was hard to get a kill in on a decent player. Find any Sorcerer, Assassin or Vengeance Jug with 100 valour and duel them, see how you do. I understand very well that, having never had the old version, you can not tell how bad the new version is. I can also understand that you are in denial, not wanting your lvl 55 to be a waste of space. Luckily for you, the Medicine Spec remained lagely unscathed, asides from the part where they no longer re-grant TA when casting Surgical probe on targets under 30%.

 

I respect everyone's right to comment as they see fit, and based on your comments about how ****** teamwork is I think you are a wonderful player, but you have no playtime with a 2.6 Concealment Oper, and thus lack the credentials to comment on what the impact of the two nerfs are. That's like asking a twelve year old to perform heart surgery.

 

Concealment op in no way deserved to be nerfed. It's only redeeming quality was it's Alpha. It's survivability has always been ****, and it's consistent DPS after it's Alpha ends is and was often not enough to finish the opponent off before their INC reinforcements arrived.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Maxajax

[cs_zoltan]

Let see, since 2.6 Concealment got:

-10% dps increase

-better energy

-better shield probe

-50% defense/resist chance with 30% uptime

-lost 1 cc

 

If I can make do with my lethality operative (which is like my millionth alt) that doesn't have half the tools as concealment, then you can as well on your main concealment operative.

[Leafy_Bug]

I mainly heal with my scoundrel but have been scrapping in PVP as well. With the recent changes, I have to say, after one warzone, I completely went to full heals and will not revert to scrapper. Why? Please find below :

 

 

1. Fun factor. Seeing a target splat on their face unable to get up while you butcher them is priceless. If they survive you may die but you would have a smile on your face. Which at the end of the day is why we play the game, to have fun. So BW removes the fun factor from scrapper.

 

 

2. Synergy. The original knockdown from shoot first, excuse my republic parlance, was dependent on the 'get up' animation. While the 'splat' effect lasted a certain time, you would gain one extra global before the target would get up. This allowed you to re-position better in your target's blindspot and land another free global on them. So just from one ability, we have lost two global cooldowns which in my opinion is a big change.

 

3. Kill or be killed. In its current form, the opener, does not act as a defense mechanism but on the contrary is making us more vulnerable than ever. So survivability nerf from one knockback.

 

4. Misunderstood. Most, including BW, have not yet figured out the differences between scrouperatives and shadows / assassins. While both are what you may call lone wolf class, one is tailored for tighter encounters, while the other, shadows, are more flexible. If you are alone and ganked by an operative, you should die. No ifs, no buts, no coconuts and coming on the forums to nerf the class. Granted some exceptional players make you minced meat in ways you have never thought possible but a class should not be nerfed to the ground because nobody understands what it does.

[JaborAnDubhar]

I mainly heal with my scoundrel but have been scrapping in PVP as well. With the recent changes, I have to say, after one warzone, I completely went to full heals and will not revert to scrapper. Why? Please find below :

 

 

1. Fun factor. Seeing a target splat on their face unable to get up while you butcher them is priceless. If they survive you may die but you would have a smile on your face. Which at the end of the day is why we play the game, to have fun. So BW removes the fun factor from scrapper.

 

 

2. Synergy. The original knockdown from shoot first, excuse my republic parlance, was dependent on the 'get up' animation. While the 'splat' effect lasted a certain time, you would gain one extra global before the target would get up. This allowed you to re-position better in your target's blindspot and land another free global on them. So just from one ability, we have lost two global cooldowns which in my opinion is a big change.

 

3. Kill or be killed. In its current form, the opener, does not act as a defense mechanism but on the contrary is making us more vulnerable than ever. So survivability nerf from one knockback.

 

4. Misunderstood. Most, including BW, have not yet figured out the differences between scrouperatives and shadows / assassins. While both are what you may call lone wolf class, one is tailored for tighter encounters, while the other, shadows, are more flexible. If you are alone and ganked by an operative, you should die. No ifs, no buts, no coconuts and coming on the forums to nerf the class. Granted some exceptional players make you minced meat in ways you have never thought possible but a class should not be nerfed to the ground because nobody understands what it does.

 

Where is the "Like"-Button?

[cs_zoltan]

If you are alone and ganked by an operative, you should die. No ifs, no buts, no coconuts and coming on the forums to nerf the class. Granted some exceptional players make you minced meat in ways you have never thought possible but a class should not be nerfed to the ground because nobody understands what it does.

 

http://youtu.be/ddQm9nciUkU?t=1m2s

 

I don't care what they do to make concealment viable, they can even turn it into a range spec, but no game ever should have a class that can win every 1on1 encounter without exception.

[Ycoga]

*Drinks deep from the Cup of Tears*

 

Aaaaahhhhh.....

[bibleblackONLY]

Hope you don't mind me chucking my opinion in here.

 

The class is not screwed up beyond redemption, this class could quite easily be fixed with minimum coding effort and minimum PvE implications. We need a defensive buff, something more substantial than the shield probe CD reduction to bring us in line with assassins and we would benefit from having hidden strike once again be a stun / knockdown.

 

We don't need more damage, our damage is actually in a good place at the moment and I wouldn't even be particularly bothered if they lowered it slightly. I'd personally like some more utility to make us viable in ranked which is also easily fixed with little to no PvE implications - something like acid blade reduces heals or removes guard would certainly help us out but without survivability we have no place versus a decent team.

 

The one fact that people seem to be forgetting here is although the class has been nerfed, again, bads will still be bad. You know that rubbish sorc you 100 - 0'd without him doing anything? Yeah he's still playing and the removal of HS knockdown doesn't suddenly make him amazing. He lost because he's bad, class balance rarely mitigates badness.

 

For example, feast your eyes on this magnificent sage. His class has received several large buffs but his badness conquers all.

 

http://youtu.be/3TiKjpx77SA

 

Now looking at assassins vs operatives, this is something which still has me scratching my head. They have more CC than us, more defensive cooldowns than us, better defensive cooldowns, better burst and more reliable burst. Their knockdown just got turned into a stun and even when they don't bother to use their defensive cooldowns they can still destroy operatives within seconds.

 

http://youtu.be/MuCvkRXAzAE

 

In that clip it's worth pointing out that I blew every cooldown I have including a medpac and if he'd hit me before I popped that medpac I would have died. This is despite me getting a pretty good crit chain on him, him standing still and letting me get 6 GCD's off on him, him not using tech immunity or vanish. Had he been even remotely competent he would have won that battle easily but like I said earlier, there will always be bads.

 

I played some games tonight, apart from coming across a Nostrum Dolus premade several times I had no real issues, I seemed to die a lot faster but I'm not quite sure on why that would be and is probably just a "feeling" rather than factual. I still took the off node in civil war and novere, I still got the ball first in huttball (not had the new one pop yet) and I still double capped people in AH.

 

In fact I noticed a rather peculiar side effect to the removal of knockdown - a lot of bads would actually stand there for the whole 3 seconds doing nothing, it was like they noticed their health dropped but couldn't work out why and didn't know how to respond.

 

Much like my 2.6 video 12 Years A Snave I'll be making a new one for 2.7 just to highlight that bad players will still die just as quick. I'm hoping that eventually bioware will notice that catering to the lowest common demoninator is a terrible way to balance classes but in the meantime you can all look forward to Snave 2.7: Snaveheart.

 

Trailer should be up this week hopefully.

 

Nothing would save a bad player......and you know what, i think some of the developers are just as bad, i mean seriously, look at the none-back required backstab, i wouldn't be astonished if this specific designer proposing that talent uses keyboard to turn around.

[cs_zoltan]

Nothing would save a bad player......and you know what, i think some of the developers are just as bad, i mean seriously, look at the none-back required backstab, i wouldn't be astonished if this specific designer proposing that talent uses keyboard to turn around.

 

I guess you never done PVE without tank companion

[Maxajax]

Let see, since 2.6 Concealment got:

-10% dps increase

-better energy

-better shield probe

-50% defense/resist chance with 30% uptime

-lost 1 cc

 

If I can make do with my lethality operative (which is like my millionth alt) that doesn't have half the tools as concealment, then you can as well on your main concealment operative.

- DPS increase is now flatout gone because the number of Lacerations we can do after the opening has been effectively cut in half.

 

- The energy is perfectly fine, but then again they could not have ****ed with the energy level without pissing off the Medicine and Lethality players too. However, Concealment as reliable(Funny term when describing a glass cannon class) spec no longer exists due to these nerfs, and all the energy in the world wouldn't fix that.

 

- And I am sure shield probes work fine if you want to look cool fighting lvl 50 mobs, but when it comes to PVP it still only deflects the DPS from a single enemy ability, and the CD is too long to make it usable. It's like my BF wrapping his dick in a napkin to **** a chainsaw.

 

- Please do fill me in on where you believe this 50% extra defense ratio comes from, because Operatives still drop like flies when you don't use a flashbang or cloaking screen + Exfiltrate to yoink during healing, or when fighting multiple opponents as a Concealment. Again, no valid argument.

 

- And it just so happened to be the *********** CC attached to the first attack in any operative's sequence. It was not a long stun, but it was a vital stun. And now it's gone, because they let someone who never touched the class make the decisions.

 

- No, PVP players don't want your ****** Lethality Spec. Even as another Operative, Healing, I laugh when one of these "Scoreboard damage" DoT monkeys tries to DPS me, and I simply purge DoT's and drop 4 HoT on myself. There is a good reason why no one uses Lethality in PVP, and that is because it lacks the necessary punch to drop an enemy's HP before the healer starts to refill his bar, and the tank guards him. This is not a problem in PVE, where your average mob/boss doesn't get heals, but the presence of two Medicine Spec players in a team will irrelevate any damage coming from a Leth spec, and don't give me that **** about Cull. It simply does not do enough.

[Maxajax]

I mainly heal with my scoundrel but have been scrapping in PVP as well. With the recent changes, I have to say, after one warzone, I completely went to full heals and will not revert to scrapper. Why? Please find below :

 

 

1. Fun factor. Seeing a target splat on their face unable to get up while you butcher them is priceless. If they survive you may die but you would have a smile on your face. Which at the end of the day is why we play the game, to have fun. So BW removes the fun factor from scrapper.

 

 

2. Synergy. The original knockdown from shoot first, excuse my republic parlance, was dependent on the 'get up' animation. While the 'splat' effect lasted a certain time, you would gain one extra global before the target would get up. This allowed you to re-position better in your target's blindspot and land another free global on them. So just from one ability, we have lost two global cooldowns which in my opinion is a big change.

 

3. Kill or be killed. In its current form, the opener, does not act as a defense mechanism but on the contrary is making us more vulnerable than ever. So survivability nerf from one knockback.

 

4. Misunderstood. Most, including BW, have not yet figured out the differences between scrouperatives and shadows / assassins. While both are what you may call lone wolf class, one is tailored for tighter encounters, while the other, shadows, are more flexible. If you are alone and ganked by an operative, you should die. No ifs, no buts, no coconuts and coming on the forums to nerf the class. Granted some exceptional players make you minced meat in ways you have never thought possible but a class should not be nerfed to the ground because nobody understands what it does.

Only thing that i would add is that even if the enemy were alone, you only won if you made zero errors, and the 20% health the enemy had would be more than enough in case of a Sage to Root you, run off, heal, bubble shield, slow, and run off while the enemy team sent reinforcements. Asides from that you just nailed it. Asides from the disastrous game-changing nerf that it represents, watching a Sage faceplant while he is trying to DPS your teammates is just *********** hilarious.

[Maxajax]

http://youtu.be/ddQm9nciUkU?t=1m2s

 

I don't care what they do to make concealment viable, they can even turn it into a range spec, but no game ever should have a class that can win every 1on1 encounter without exception.

 

Again, even with the alpha, operatives winning every 1 on 1 encounter is total ********. Sage health would drop to 20%, and Guardian Health to about 40 to 50%. That is all the HP they needed to put us in a similar placate/stunlock and DPS rotation of death. The only difference is that we lost the last saving grace we had. Even with Knockdown, two GCD later, they could stun you before you got Debilitate in, and kick your behind back to the spawn room. Now they get 3 GCD to do that.

 

I understand that for someone that sucks or someone that did not know the 2.6 Concealment spec, stunning an operative in the middle of his routine must be very hard. But why do the people that suck that much have that much say? Against a decent Deception Assa, DPS Jug and any kind of tank, an operative was royally screwed. Only the squishy classes had an issue with us, and even then, only when we did every ability in the correct order without errors. Even then, it sometimes just wasn't enough.

 

In most one on one engagements, 2.6 Concealment Operatives won with a slimmer of health left, then had a "Proud of U" moment of self reflection, and had to pick between trying to cap the prize or break off and regen.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Maxajax

[Maxajax]

Nothing would save a bad player......and you know what, i think some of the developers are just as bad, i mean seriously, look at the none-back required backstab, i wouldn't be astonished if this specific designer proposing that talent uses keyboard to turn around.

 

 

Yep, they took away a tool from good players, and they made the class more generic for the ****** operatives out there.

 

Only without that knockback you might as well try starting a bar fight with wesley snipes.

[CheechMacho]

concealment operative is dead. Period.

[Liquor]

Do we have a Class Rep?

 

I would like a Rep's thoughts on the changes with 2.7. Especially since the Devs are not involved.

[Sappharan]

If you are alone and ganked by an operative, you should die. No ifs, no buts, no coconuts and coming on the forums to nerf the class. Granted some exceptional players make you minced meat in ways you have never thought possible but a class should not be nerfed to the ground because nobody understands what it does.

 

That is categorically and unequivocally the most entitled and lugubrious response I have ever read. It is downright arrogant. Simply because that is *YOUR* view of how operatives should function does NOT make it so and it is staggering that you believe any REAL PvPer would subscribe to it.

 

PvP is about the thrill of pitting your skills (as a duelist and cooperatively as a team) against other LIVE opponents and that does include ganking, but through skill and knowledge. Even if you included the caveat that only a skilled and knowledgeable operative should be able to dismantle ALL other classes under those circumstances, I would still vociferously condemn your thinking because absolutes kill the fun and spirit of PvP. But hey, you didn't even go that far. As long as the operative finds you "alone...you should die"--never mind skill. /golfclap

 

Essentially, you're not interested in challenge or class balance, you are only interested in class superiority, the proverbial "I WIN" button. If you wish to thrill yourself to the conquest of empty vessels, play another game or go gank lowbies.

[Maxajax]

Do we have a Class Rep?

 

I would like a Rep's thoughts on the changes with 2.7. Especially since the Devs are not involved.

 

He quit

[Maxajax]

That is categorically and unequivocally the most entitled and lugubrious response I have ever read. It is downright arrogant. Simply because that is *YOUR* view of how operatives should function does NOT make it so and it is staggering that you believe any REAL PvPer would subscribe to it.

 

PvP is about the thrill of pitting your skills (as a duelist and cooperatively as a team) against other LIVE opponents and that does include ganking, but through skill and knowledge. Even if you included the caveat that only a skilled and knowledgeable operative should be able to dismantle ALL other classes under those circumstances, I would still vociferously condemn your thinking because absolutes kill the fun and spirit of PvP. But hey, you didn't even go that far. As long as the operative finds you "alone...you should die"--never mind skill. /golfclap

 

Essentially, you're not interested in challenge or class balance, you are only interested in class superiority, the proverbial "I WIN" button. If you wish to thrill yourself to the conquest of empty vessels, play another game or go gank lowbies.

There was no such thing as the I WIN button with operatives. The class required you to know the EXACT combos for maximum damage, be lucky enough not to get stunned or placated, and demanded fast reflexes as any class other than a marauder/sentinel could brutalize you with contemptuous ease. What they did now was lower our survivability even FURTHER by removing the hard stun from Hidden Strike. The fact that they broke Laceration is less offensive than that stun, imho.

[Maxajax]

concealment operative is dead. Period.

 

Noes, listen to this man. He will explain what we must do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8691O-vKRDw

[DrKlep]

I'm not quite giving up, but I'm definitely not having fun in PVP this week.

[Maxajax]

I'm not quite giving up, but I'm definitely not having fun in PVP this week.

 

We will endure this indignity until BW gives us our class back. Only a blind fool would not be able to see how gimped the class is against the new Vengeance Jug, the current Deception Assa, the Madness Sorc.