PVE bolster !!

[YanksfanJP]

Those of you responding negatively, please explain why you think PvE bolster is a bad idea? Why is it OK to give newbs and PvE players (when playing PvP) a buff that makes them nearly equal to top-gear folks (within 5%, per the devs), but it's not OK to give newbs and PvP players (when playing PvE) the same buff? Shouldn't it be the same across the board?

 

The reason bolster is appropriate in PvP but not PvE is because in PvP, you have no choice but to be matched up against opponents that might severely outgear you. There is no way around it. You queue up and you might be matched against people in your gear or people that have best in slot pvp gear.

 

In PvE, however, you have that choice totally within your control. You get to choose the difficulty of your opponent and it is expected that you will choose an opponent whose difficulty matches what your gear can reasonably handle, and the gear drops from that opponent will prepare you for more difficult opponents. Part of the PvE MMO experience is working your way up from easier opponents to harder opponents. In PvP, you don't get that option or opportunity, and you're thrown to the wolves right out of the gate.

[Banegio]

I say remove pvp bolster too.

 

reason...

 

- Twinking, Battlegrounds at max level ONLY, No PvP Gear Vendors, Tarren Mill vs. Southshore –

 

I saved this one for last, as to me it is the most important. The core to what all MMOs lack / lost. And part of me cries inside that I am about to recommend that Twinking not exist in an MMO; because I loved every minute of having the greatest Twink to walk through the world of Azerorth. Yet I know the truth now and I know that the right direction to save MMOs from the hardship that is early game battlegrounds is to not have them at all!

 

 

That is right no battlegrounds or arena’s until max level is my biggest recommendation. It has never been done and or attempted. This would be a first in any MMO ever. To void instanced PvP until the top level. Why? What benefit does that add? How do you not lose PvPer’s who need PvP in their MMO to get to the max level? How do you keep them entertained in the leveling system without early game battlegrounds? Let me take a minute and explain it:

 

 

I want to address why battlegrounds is a waste of time prior to max level. The prime reason is because developer’s in any MMO don’t give two !@#!’s about it. They put it in as a means to appease PvPer’s, but they don’t take the time to care about balancing it. Many try gimmicks to make it work but they all fail. Twinks run rampant in old school systems like 10-19. WoW tried to limit it to 5 levels instead of 9 levels but then the player pools so small that queue’s are too long. SWTOR tried a scaled up gimmick but level 50 40 characters with masteries and skills stomp on level 11’s with neither. Hunter’s run rampant with explosive shot at level 19 in WoW and yet Blizzard couldn’t care less. These are just examples of the situation. It’s a waste of time to try to manage battlegrounds before max level. No one finds them balanced and or exciting they are just a time sync for PvPer’s to do while leveling.

 

 

Having battlegrounds only at max level means you can spend more time focusing on making those battlegrounds very balanced around what max level has to offer for the characters and skills. This gives you more room to get as much of PvP right as possible; and is easily focused on by a small team at the office to handle. Same goes for having arena only be a max cap level system. This is less of a headache for everyone involved the players and the developers.

 

 

Now as developers you are probably like “No, there is no way we can risk losing the PvP community during leveling.” Well there’s a work around for that too. You need Tarren Mill vs. Southshore scenarios OFTEN during leveling. This revives what little of World PvP still exists in MMOs and gives PvPers the feasting they need to keep them going while leveling. For our few and far between friends who do not know what this metaphor is:

 

 

Tarren Mill vs. Southshore is a metaphor to Vanilla WoW’s zone that was one of the first early level meeting points for both factions. They were similarly leveled in a very small confined space where quests overlapped. On a PvP server this was your first experience of war with the opposing faction. The place was always a battleground, and people were constantly fighting each other it was unavoidable. Absolutely no one from Vanilla WoW forgets their experiences in these areas.

 

quote from: http://wildstar-central.com/index.php?threads/a-very-comprehensive-review-for-wildstar-from-a-1-er-warning-this-is-long.3072/

Edited March 11, 2014 by Banegio

[Pumeftw]

The reason bolster is appropriate in PvP but not PvE is because in PvP, you have no choice but to be matched up against opponents that might severely outgear you. There is no way around it. You queue up and you might be matched against people in your gear or people that have best in slot pvp gear.

Rofl, but you can be matched with people like you with equal gear. What are you trying to say? For what you wrote i guess you think gear is the only factor for wins in PVP. But hey, why am i not surprised - you are a pve player.

Yes in pvp you can meet people with different gear, and this demands bolster for you? Do you know what fun it is to beat someone with better gear? (wait ,dont answer that) Well its pretty damn good feeling. So you play and get comms no mattter what gear you have - then you can get better gear and enjoy wins even more. If you start already with super bolstered gear you dont feel the progress you make, and it doesnt feel rewarding.

 

In PvE, however, you have that choice totally within your control. You get to choose the difficulty of your opponent and it is expected that you will choose an opponent whose difficulty matches what your gear can reasonably handle, and the gear drops from that opponent will prepare you for more difficult opponents. Part of the PvE MMO experience is working your way up from easier opponents to harder opponents. In PvP, you don't get that option or opportunity, and you're thrown to the wolves right out of the gate.

Some people like challanges some dont - you and your content control is just an easy mode all the way- in some way you do the same thing you accuse pvp'ers for: You get good gear so you can easymode ops. So here's the difference: PvP can surprise you ,you never know who your opponent is, and every enemy have their own set of skills, you cant make up tactics vs. people - you gotta be creative think what to do in certain situations how to counter the moves enemy does - and that is fun!

But you like to control everything, you want to know whats gonna happen so you can prepare, thus making the encounter no challenge at all. But hey! maybe thats the diference between PVP'ers and PVE'rs - you like ezmode, we like hardmode(dont think harmodes ops are hard becouse its called like that). But why we have to suffer becouse of lazy PvE'rs that want to do PVP without any effort. Why do you PVP at all go kill your bosses in ops again and again and again, same fight everytime - so interesting. GL , HF and leave PVP alone!

Edited March 12, 2014 by Pumeftw

[Ryluk_Shouja]

Some people like challanges some dont - you and your content control is just an easy mode all the way- in some way you do the same thing you accuse pvp'ers for: You get good gear so you can easymode ops. So here's the difference: PvP can surprise you ,you never know who your opponent is, and every enemy have their own set of skills, you cant make up tactics vs. people - you gotta be creative think what to do in certain situations how to counter the moves enemy does - and that is fun!

But you like to control everything, you want to know whats gonna happen so you can prepare, thus making the encounter no challenge at all. But hey! maybe thats the diference between PVP'ers and PVE'rs - you like ezmode, we like hardmode(dont think harmodes ops are hard becouse its called like that). But why we have to suffer becouse of lazy PvE'rs that want to do PVP without any effort. Why do you PVP at all go kill your bosses in ops again and again and again, same fight everytime - so interesting. GL , HF and leave PVP alone!

 

So, if PvE is so EZ-mode, and PvP is challenging, which by your own admission makes it fun, why do you even want to run ops?

 

Also, you stray from your own point. This thread is about adding a PvE bolster, not about pve'rs making pvpers suffer. An equal case can be made about pvpers making pve'rs suffer, if we really wanted to examine class changes in the last couple years.

 

TL:DR - I want to know why you even want to participate in EZ-mode noobfest ops, if that's your opinion of PvE?

[Zenmar]

Again? Really?

 

Here's your bolster: save your credits while you're leveling, then go to Oricon and grab the gear offered with the questline. Do dailies for a week and buy augments. Now you're perfectly fine for SM.

 

Some people think PVE is all about gear. They're wrong. A bolster won't let you faceroll HM or Nim. It is about understanding mechanics, repeating a fight dozens of times to execute it better; that's the first step. You learn when to pop your cd's, how to maximize your dps and stuff like that. Gear is the second step, and if you're able to get it, it means you've got the first step done.

[morfius]

Me want make ops-Gief now!

 

Well, i'd like to get some reward for my hard earned PVP gear - and that reward is facerolling, isnt it?

 

As I said - griefer mentality... this alone nullify all your "equality" arguments.

[morfius]

I agree with you regarding the PvE bolster. The gear grind is not just a way to keep people motivated to do operations, it also replaces a tutorial in some way. Due to the grind people have to do easier modes first and acquire a basic understanding of tactics and their role in operations. And getting a set of gear that prepares you for story mode operations can be done within a few hours (Oricon and flahspoints). So there is absolutely no need for a PvE bolster.

 

Furthermore, I agree with you to a certain degree regarding the PvP bolster. If they just removed it and left everything else the way it is now, a lot less people would do warzones, because the grind to their first set of lvl 55 PvP gear would be hard being slaughtered by others in full PvP gear all the time. Yet, I think removing the bolster in PvP is not impossible, they would just have to change a little something. I can think of 2 ways to do that:

 

1) Lower / nerf the effect of the expertise rating a bit, so the gap between no and full PvP gear gets a little smaller, but is still there.

2) Give fresh lvl 55 players some sort of quest line that provides a basic set of PvP gear, just like the Oricon quest line does for PvE. For example, something like a staged quest that is similar to the warzones daily. Stage 1: finish 2 warzones (wins count double) and as a reward you will get the first item of your PvP gear, the gloves. Next stag gives you the boots etc. Introducing a new tier of PvP gear would be a geat opportunity to do this. They could just use the Conqueror gear then. So you get a basic set with 65 mods in a few hours, grind 67 with wz comms and whatever rating the new PvP gear has you can grind with ranked comms.

 

To be honest, I never understood why introduce PvP gear with expertise rating and then introduce a bolster that gives you expertise when you have no expertise (???). So this would just be my 2 suggestions, how it would be possible to remove the bolster and still granting the players who grinded their superior PvP gear the advantage over other players with less gear.

 

1 - 2.7 will have something like that - you will have no expertise bolster on weapons using + 41 end/power crystals if I take it right.

2 - would still have same issues as old system with entry gear, those 2 or 3 weeklies means at least 4 matches per week when you are free frag for any geared player. Most players will simply stop playing 55 level PvP than go just to be killed again and again by griefers as OP.

 

There are so many ideas, cutting bolster 5% bellow 1st PvP set, replacing gear with flat stats + PvP set adding 5% above, removing gear/stats from PvP and go for totally % based system for abilities damage, DR and healing + PvP sets add 5% above base % and above 1st one (and set bonuses).

Simply turning back to old system (griefing stat + no gear or crappy entry gear) means dead to PvP in game... there will be some minor exclusions but in general queues will dry.

Adding entry gear 5% bellow 1st PvP set would make it hard for new players (only augumenting 2 sets = 28 kits - 1.7 mil, 1 mil. to slot them, 2.3 mil for augments ... 5 mil. credits for new players would mean - pay real money to credit seller/buy from CM and sell on GTN or simply be free frag for months).

Removing augments from game would means FU to crafters and same as above - pay real money or be broken.

And game still rely on new players ... otherwise there will be no population to queue.

 

If I had something to say - I would remove gear and stats from PvP completely and go for % based system, when there is no difference in what gear you are, no difference are you OW or in WZ, no difference in level & so on.

[Pumeftw]

So, if PvE is so EZ-mode, and PvP is challenging, which by your own admission makes it fun, why do you even want to run ops?

 

Also, you stray from your own point. This thread is about adding a PvE bolster, not about pve'rs making pvpers suffer. An equal case can be made about pvpers making pve'rs suffer, if we really wanted to examine class changes in the last couple years.

 

TL:DR - I want to know why you even want to participate in EZ-mode noobfest ops, if that's your opinion of PvE?

I dont like to repeat myself but eh, what to do. Addin PVE bolster was never my point here I wrote a taunting topic so you Pve'rs can see the bolster the way i see it - affecting the part of game you like the most. I wanted you to understand how pain in the *** is it. But still you cannot see that its the same thing if you put it into pve or pvp. You dont like pve bolster and i dont like pvp one( in fact i dont like it at all). You are in better position though becouse there is no pve bolster.

So, my real point is to show people how broken mechanic for endgame pvp it is, but as this topic goes i still see many ignorants that think PVP bolster is a good thing.

 

Again? Really?

 

Here's your bolster: save your credits while you're leveling, then go to Oricon and grab the gear offered with the questline. Do dailies for a week and buy augments. Now you're perfectly fine for SM.

 

Some people think PVE is all about gear. They're wrong. A bolster won't let you faceroll HM or Nim. It is about understanding mechanics, repeating a fight dozens of times to execute it better; that's the first step. You learn when to pop your cd's, how to maximize your dps and stuff like that. Gear is the second step, and if you're able to get it, it means you've got the first step done.

Wow thanks for advice - now let me tell you how to get PVP gear:

 

Save your wz commz while you're leveling, then go to fleet grab some gear that a guy called pvp vendor sells.

Do dailies for a week and buy augments. Now you're perfectly fine for PVP.

 

Some people think tha PVP is all about gear. They're wrong. A bolster won't let you faceroll good players. It is about expierience and training(period) that's the first step. You learn how to beat other players and what to do in specific warzones- stuff like that. Gear is the second step, and if you're able to get it, it means you've got the first step done

 

Any questions?

Edited March 12, 2014 by Pumeftw

[Anthraxal]

Let's say you change nothing in the game but remove bolster. Fine with me. I give it a week before other Pvpers come raging because for some unknown reason, the queues have dried away. Maybe not on your server, I wouldn't know, but on mine at least, a PvP server even. For many, PvP is fun enough to play with suboptimal but ok stats, but definitely not fun enough to go through the hassle of getting roflstomped repeatedly before having a chance.

 

Bolster is a bandaid for a deeper problem. It seems that a majority sanctions the double-standard gear system created by Expertize. Probably because they never knew another way to handle the PvE and PvP balance. I don't. Personally, I find Expertize to be an heresy, the epitomize of laziness in the field of game development, I won't go on length about it, it 's a long-dead horse, but as long as Expertize remains, you will either get a shortage of players willing to cope with it or silly implementations like Bolster to attract the non-hardcore crowd and maintain the PvP minigame into machine-supported survival.

 

Yes, I said minigame, but before you go emo about it, let me say I don't enjoy its state. There's so much that could have been done with PvP in this game, so many ways it could have been smartly implemented and integrated to the story arcs, to the control of planets and so on, to make it attractive... BW/EA clearly lost their balls somewhere on the way, together with whatever ambition they might have had for PvP in the beginning.

[Pumeftw]

Let's say you change nothing in the game but remove bolster. Fine with me. I give it a week before other Pvpers come raging because for some unknown reason, the queues have dried away. Maybe not on your server, I wouldn't know, but on mine at least, a PvP server even.

So you justify bolster just becouse it maskes que's go faster? Weard thinking, instead they should make cross server WZ's like in WoW. No need for stupid bolster.

 

For many, PvP is fun enough to play with suboptimal but ok stats, but definitely not fun enough to go through the hassle of getting roflstomped repeatedly before having a chance.

These are the rules of mmo's - you have to work for your gear, not go easymode. At least i like a challenge but it seems most of you are just lazy noobs that want to have everything without any commitment. Damn mmo's die just to please lazy, unskilled casuals.

 

 

Bolster is a bandaid for a deeper problem. It seems that a majority sanctions the double-standard gear system created by Expertize. Probably because they never knew another way to handle the PvE and PvP balance. I don't. Personally, I find Expertize to be an heresy, the epitomize of laziness in the field of game development, I won't go on length about it, it 's a long-dead horse, but as long as Expertize remains, you will either get a shortage of players willing to cope with it or silly implementations like Bolster to attract the non-hardcore crowd and maintain the PvP minigame into machine-supported survival.

Expertise is very good way to differentiate PVP gear form PVE gear- 1st is vs players 2cnd versus mobs. Its very similliar ro resilience in WoW wich works fine for years.

 

 

Yes, I said minigame, but before you go emo about it, let me say I don't enjoy its state. There's so much that could have been done with PvP in this game, so many ways it could have been smartly implemented and integrated to the story arcs, to the control of planets and so on, to make it attractive... BW/EA clearly lost their balls somewhere on the way, together with whatever ambition they might have had for PvP in the beginning.

Well yeah they could add something : Most important now is to implement cross-server WZ's - but all in all its not that bad, i miss only open PVP areas with some goals and rewards for pvp'ing there. And how you want to implement story into pvp? You have any ideas? or you just want something but dont really know what?

Edited March 12, 2014 by Pumeftw

[magi_melcior]

So you justify bolster just becouse it maskes que's go faster? Weard thinking, instead they should make cross server WZ's like in WoW. No need for stupid bolster.

 

I'm not sure you understand why the removal of Bolster (without some sort of replacement) would increase queue times. Without Bolster those players who haven't yet got full PvP gear would stop playing in WZs as all of a sudden they'd be free kills to the enemy and dead weight to their team and new lvl 55s wouldn't start for the same reason. Adding X-Server wouldn't solve this as players without full 2018 would still be dead weight regardless of which server they'd be on.

 

These are the rules of mmo's - you have to work for your gear, not go easymode. At least i like a challenge but it seems most of you are just lazy noobs that want to have everything without any commitment. Damn mmo's die just to please lazy, unskilled casuals.

 

While I agree that I enjoy a challenge and earning the gear does give one a sense of achievement, there is a crucial difference between working for something and suffering for something. Without bolster those players who are new to 55 and still gearing up will have to suffer. Suffer being stomped, pounded and destroyed over and over again as they grind out their gear. PvP is a competition but it is also supposed to be fun, and being massacred with no chance of fighting back isn't fun. That is what it was like pre-bolster when all that counted was gear and not skill, if you out geared someone you beat him end of story, bolster isn't perfect but it is a damn sight better than what we had before. Although I do agree the current implementation of bolster has some issues (blue gear exploit will hopefully go in 2.7) and the gear gap between the different tiers could be widened a bit.

 

Expertise is very good way to differentiate PVP gear form PVE gear- 1st is vs players 2cnd versus mobs. Its very similliar ro resilience in WoW wich works fine for years.

 

Agreed, but Expertise on it's own creates a massive gear disparity between PvE and PvP gear in Warzones. A disparity that is very hard, sometimes impossible to overcome. It creates a roadblock to new players coming into PvP at 55, and I for one want to encourage as many people as possible to take up PvP at 55, not drive them away.

Recruit gear didn't work as it was badly implemented but Bolster has done a decent job of helping people into PvP, yes it could work better (a lot better if I'm honest) but it does at least it does it's job.

 

Let me also point you at these threads

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=721390

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=721740

 

I'll admit they were started as Troll threads but they actually evolved into a decent debate of the issues of Bolster in PvP and PvE.

[Khevar]

So, my real point is to show people how broken mechanic for endgame pvp it is, but as this topic goes i still see many ignorants that think PVP bolster is a good thing.

Before endgame bolster we had Recruit -> Champion -> Battlemaster -> War Hero -> Elite War Hero.

 

I've asked a few people and thus far not a single person has answered. Perhaps you'll be the first.

 

"Do you remember when Recruit Gear was in the game? Have you ever been in full EWH and gone against players in Recruit? Was it fun?"

Edited March 12, 2014 by Khevar

[magi_melcior]

Before endgame bolster we had Recruit -> Champion -> Battlemaster -> War Hero -> Elite War Hero.

 

I've asked a few people and thus far not a single person has answered. Perhaps you'll be the first.

 

"Do you remember when Recruit Gear was in the game? Have you ever been in full EWH and gone against players in Recruit? Was it fun?"

 

I know you weren't asking me but I will answer it anyway.

I actually have experience on both sides of that equations and Neither was much fun!

[fire-breath]

Bolster is such a great feature! Why dont you nice BW make a PVE one?

I dont want to make boring fp's after i level 55 i want to do ops straight away, pleasme make PVE bolster becouse new ops players may be discoured due other ppl wanting to kick them from ops couse they have low gear

Or maybe like peaple say before in pvp version - just give all new 55 players full ops gear? I dont know you gotta sort this out or i will unsub!! :mad: BTW i dont think adding new tier of PVE gear is okay becouse most of people dont want to grind another set of gear!

Conclussion: Make PVE bolster!! its such a great thing let all experience it not just PVP'ers!!

 

Ah ... its just as if Bioware heard your call. Especially for you they made it so that lowbees gets bolstered up for Kuat drive yards.

Now go in and enjoy your PvE bolster.

[sithBracer]

snippet

 

I think I can solve all your problems when it comes to playing with bolster.

 

 

L2P, upgrade your skill and then you can beat people without a gear advantage.

 

[naldoran]

Okay, I'll take a stab at explaining why Bolster is necessary in PvP but not PvE content.

 

Premise One: Expertise (or a similar mechanic) must exist. This is to prevent the end-game NiM raid teams from being the only ones with access to top-tier gear. If there was no differentiation between PvE & PvP gear, end-game PvE content would become a prerequisite for competitive PvP because your gear could not be competitive otherwise. I've played an MMO (Star Trek Online) where gear was the same in PvP & PvE, and the requirement for PvE gear grind to be competitive within the PvP arena had a massive negative effect on pvp participation numbers.

 

Consequence: We're going to have separate PvE & PvP gear, each obtainable by playing their associated content.

 

Premise 2: Gear progression exists in PvE, does not exist in unranked PvP. Someone who has just hit 55 & completed the Oricon quest series to get a set of 66 gear, with a mainhand from the makeb reputation would get eaten alive if dropped in Nightmare Dread Guards or HM Raptus; this is why SM operations exist, and such gear is adequate to run them. Our hypothetical newbie has content appropriate to both his gear & experience level. In the world of Unranked Warzones, the same newbie can get placed against pre-made teams with 2100 rating in ranked (and commensurate gear) as easily and frequently as they're placed against average players. Given that he's just hit 55 and has no pvp gear yet, if Bolster did not exist, his Expertise would be zero, resulting in a demoralizing slaughter by better geared players, regardless of our newbie's actual skill. There would literally be no way for him to fight back effectively. Many people are unwilling to face a one-sided slaughter where they are helpless to fight back effectively against an overwhelming gear advantage for the couple weeks required to get their own set of gear and begin to compete upon a skill basis, not a gear basis. If bashing your face against a wall and dying repeatedly for a period of time, regardless of skill level, is a prerequisite for effectively competing then we're looking at a piss-poor game design.

 

Consequence: Bolster is required for Unranked PvP to be fun and accessible to as large a portion of the playerbase as possible.

 

Ranked PvP is, I feel, a different matter when concerns of accessibility are discussed, but rather than create a separate bolster-free environment (which would be confusing to people trying Ranked for the first time), Bioware has chosen for ranked & unraked warzones to operate under the same basic gameplay rules, which is a perfectly defensible choice from a design perspective.

 

When asking for PvP bolster to go away, you need to look at how it would impact the entire game, not just your particular niche. Is Bolster as implemented problematic when it results in PvE gear being BiS for ranked PvP? Heck yes, which is why the next patch has a fix for it.

 

PS: Before anyone goes calling me a PvP or PvE apologist, I've got a 1518 rating, and every HM (plus a portion of the NiMs) boss clear under my belt. So yes, I have a fair bit of experience with both gameplay types.

Edited March 13, 2014 by naldoran

[Anthraxal]

So you justify bolster just becouse it maskes que's go faster? Weard thinking, instead they should make cross server WZ's like in WoW. No need for stupid bolster.

I don't justify anything, I explain that they introduced that bandaid as a workaround to a situation of warzones not starting because of the itemization system they implemented. If it was me and my way, you would have no Bolster because there would be no need for it

 

These are the rules of mmo's - you have to work for your gear, not go easymode. At least i like a challenge but it seems most of you are just lazy noobs that want to have everything without any commitment. Damn mmo's die just to please lazy, unskilled casuals.

Being vindicative won't bring you anywhere, I prolly was as hardcore as you may get as far as PvP was concerned in another game with other mechanics. It's just that PvP is, let's face it, so poor, so stakeless in this game... It wasn't and still doesn't go anywhere. Working for your gear is a basic, alright, but there is just no incentive to do so. At least, not that has any real appeal for a majority.

 

Expertise is very good way to differentiate PVP gear form PVE gear- 1st is vs players 2cnd versus mobs. Its very similliar ro resilience in WoW wich works fine for years.

That's what I said. SWTOR is either the first mmo or second after Wow for many a player. Those who experienced other systems in older games (EO, AO...), know that the introduction of a PvP stat is not only optional, but in our case counter-productive. PvE and PvP gear need not be exclusive of one another, they could be synergetic. Anyway, as I said, this is a dead horse and I don't expect any system change of this extent.

 

Well yeah they could add something : Most important now is to implement cross-server WZ's - but all in all its not that bad, i miss only open PVP areas with some goals and rewards for pvp'ing there. And how you want to implement story into pvp? You have any ideas? or you just want something but dont really know what?

Basically, anything that would bring back the "Wars" into "Star Wars" and make PvErs and PvPers eager to cooperate instead of living in different worlds : PvP missions bringing you in enemy-controlled territory, capital ships/planet opened for invasion, taxi/teleport points being available only if your side control the area/base on the planets, a 0 to 20% side xp buff budget shared over all the available controllable land, why not a season system on planet controls... there's a whole world of possibilities as far as PvP is concerned, but I don't know if there's still time to save PvP in this game.

[Khevar]

I know you weren't asking me but I will answer it anyway.

I actually have experience on both sides of that equations and Neither was much fun!

Thank you.

 

That was my experience as well. I've seen a few people heavily against PvP bolster in any form, and I find it odd. I also find it interesting that not one person who hates PvP bolster has ever answered the question I posted above. However, Pumeftw may be in another time zone, so I still have hopes that I might get an answer tonight.

 

Now, my personal preference would be:

 

a) PvE bolster just below PvP gear.

b) PvP gear just a tiny bit better.

c ) Next tier of PvP gear just a tiny bit better than that.

 

This would at least give some meaning to a PvP gear progression without going back to how it was before.

[Pumeftw]

However, Pumeftw may be in another time zone, so I still have hopes that I might get an answer tonight.

(ok fast answer just for you, couse i gotta go sleep soon gonna write more later )the question was?

"Do you remember when Recruit Gear was in the game? Have you ever been in full EWH and gone against players in Recruit? Was it fun?"

 

My answer is : Yes, i remember recruit gear, started with it 50 lvl WZ's it was when war here was in the game already.

At first it wasnt easy to beat outgearing me players, but i participated and earned commz to get gear pieces 1 by 1. Finished with min/maxed Elite War Hero, quit for sometime before Hutt Cartel was introduced(couldnt buy it no credit card). And i didnt feel like im suffering ,it was harder to beat better geared players but it was possible - that was normal thing for me (earning PVP set) as i played WoW since 2006 where there is no bolster, all new max lvl players go to battlegrounds to get their gear without any free gear or bolster mechanic and nobody cries about it. ) So as im a pvp player i played Swtor Wz's becouse i like PVP.

2. And yes going EWH versus recruit is superfun! : This is the reward for my hard work getting my gear. As i said before there are people who doesnt like challenge and people that does like it. With this kind of attitude you ppl wouldnt achieve anything in real life. But there are winners and loosers for a reason. Are you satisfied with my answer?

Edited March 13, 2014 by Pumeftw

[naldoran]

2. And yes going EWH versus recruit is superfun! : This is the reward for my hard work getting my gear.

You sir, do not think like a game designer who is trying to create an experience that is fun for as many people as possible.

[Khevar]

2. And yes going EWH versus recruit is superfun! : This is the reward for my hard work getting my gear. As i said before there are people who doesnt like challenge and people that does like it. With this kind of attitude you ppl wouldnt achieve anything in real life. But there are winners and loosers for a reason. Are you satisfied with my answer?

Thanks, I appreciate it.

 

Thus the difference in opinion. You enjoy having a gear divide, letting you destroy the weaker geared players regardless of the skill involved. I think it's a boring way to play the game.

 

Similarly, I don't take my 78-geared toons to run Heroics on Belsavis. God Mode doesn't make for a very interesting experience -- the novelty wears off quickly.

 

Most of the players that I know personally in the game do both PvE and PvP. Ops lockouts happen pretty early on, which leaves the rest of the week for PvP. Quite a few of these players have been around since beta, and have 2-4 (or more) toons in full Obroan.

 

None of us particularly enjoyed the roflstomp of the new recruit-geared player, (other than perhaps the first time just for the lulz). And if you (dog forbid) ever got those players on your own team, it was even less fun.

 

I rarely hear complaints about bolster from anyone outside of the forums (i.e. from the people I play with in-game). And the reason for this is: Winning a PvP conflict is now more about skill, and less about gear.

 

Many of us happen to like it that way. It's that simple.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Khevar

[Falver]

You can't kick people out of a WZ. Also, having high-end PVP gear doesn't punish you in endgame raids but having full BiS endgame punishes you in PVP. Edited March 13, 2014 by Falver

[Zenmar]

Wow thanks for advice - now let me tell you how to get PVP gear:

 

Save your wz commz while you're leveling, then go to fleet grab some gear that a guy called pvp vendor sells.

Do dailies for a week and buy augments. Now you're perfectly fine for PVP.

 

Some people think tha PVP is all about gear. They're wrong. A bolster won't let you faceroll good players. It is about expierience and training(period) that's the first step. You learn how to beat other players and what to do in specific warzones- stuff like that. Gear is the second step, and if you're able to get it, it means you've got the first step done

 

Any questions?

 

Fact is I didn't start a thread because I want a bolster. I do not expect BW to get me on par with people who worked for months on their toons.

 

Bolster is a stupid thing in PVP, and it would be even more stupid in ops. As I told to the other guy who opened a similar thread: spend more time gearing your char and less complaining on the forums.

[magi_melcior]

Fact is I didn't start a thread because I want a bolster. I do not expect BW to get me on par with people who worked for months on their toons.

 

Bolster is a stupid thing in PVP, and it would be even more stupid in ops. As I told to the other guy who opened a similar thread: spend more time gearing your char and less complaining on the forums.

 

OK, I can accept you don't actually want Bolster in PvE and are actually trying to rally support for the removal of bolster from PvP (although it could be argued that this belongs in the PvP forum or the general forum not here, but we'll ignore that for now).

 

So let me ask you a number of questions to try and gauge your opinion of the different aspects of the PvP bolster debate.

Q1.Without bolster do you accept that there would be a massive gear difference between PvP and PvE gear in a PvP environment, due to the affect of Expertise?

Q2. If so, do you believe (like I do) that such gear gap would be a barrier, discouraging fresh 55s from joining PvP?

Q3. Do you think Recruit Gear was a worse solution to this initial gear gap than Bolster is?

Q4. Do you think it would be unfair for fresh 55s should spend their first week in 55 PvP being free kills for the enemy and dead weight for their team?

 

So if you answered yes to all the above and still want Bolster taken away, what would you want it replaced with?

 

I would also like to add that trying to prove Bolster sucks in PvE does not necessarily prove it sucks in PvP. The two game types are not equal as they have been structured differently. PvE is built around Progression , progression of skill, progression of difficulty and progression of gear. Think of it like a mountaineer starting on the easier climbs and slowly working his way up till finally he stands on top of Everest, each step on the way is tougher requiring more skill, more teamwork and better gear. As such bolster totally destroys a key part of the progression trinity, that of gear.

PvP, while it has some small amount of gear progression, is primarily built around Competition facing off against an opponent to see who is the best, it is meant to be a test of skill in a constantly evolving and changing situation. Having gear progression as steep as PvE (or like it was pre 2.0) destroys a lot of the competition element of PvP because if one side has a big gear advantage it is no competition at all, juts team A face-rolling team B. The idea of bolster is to reduce the gear advantage to such a level that a players skill can overcome the difference in gear if they have the skill. However it is supposed to leave PvP gear as the better gear in a WZ, hopefully with 2.7 and the apparent fixing of the blue gear exploit it may actually return to working as it was supposed to.

 

IMO Bolster (despite being unnecessarily complicated and buggy) has moved PvP from being about just the gear to being about skill, it has also made it easier for fresh 55s to get on the end game PvP ladder. I think that this is a good thing for PvP in general. Is it the best way of achieving this, probably not. But as of yet no one has put forward a better idea, so we're stuck with bolster in one form or another.

[Pumeftw]

Thanks, I appreciate it.

 

Thus the difference in opinion. You enjoy having a gear divide, letting you destroy the weaker geared players regardless of the skill involved. I think it's a boring way to play the game.

 

Similarly, I don't take my 78-geared toons to run Heroics on Belsavis. God Mode doesn't make for a very interesting experience -- the novelty wears off quickly.

 

Most of the players that I know personally in the game do both PvE and PvP. Ops lockouts happen pretty early on, which leaves the rest of the week for PvP. Quite a few of these players have been around since beta, and have 2-4 (or more) toons in full Obroan.

 

None of us particularly enjoyed the roflstomp of the new recruit-geared player, (other than perhaps the first time just for the lulz). And if you (dog forbid) ever got those players on your own team, it was even less fun.

 

I rarely hear complaints about bolster from anyone outside of the forums (i.e. from the people I play with in-game). And the reason for this is: Winning a PvP conflict is now more about skill, and less about gear.

 

Many of us happen to like it that way. It's that simple.

 

By superfun i mean lulz as you described it, doin that all the time is boring but pwning low gear from time to time time just makes me smile ;] . And who doesnt like to have gear advantage ,anyone who will say no, is a lier lol. Anyway what about 1st part of my answer? It seems you didnt read it.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Pumeftw