The Problems of Jet Charge as baseline(For lack of a better title.)

[TheSupaCoopa]

It was either that or "Jett Not Munky."

 

Duran'del here:

 

My siblings make fun of me for "writing essays". Ironically, I will be doing just that today. This will be set up as an expository essay to introduce new players to this interesting topic and to help others play Devil's Advocate to their own views.

 

 

The topic of Jet Charge as a baseline talent has been the topic of many debates. Some believe that we need it. Some think we would have to give up parts of the PowerTech's impressive toolkit in order to get it, and some say that we do not need it at all.

 

The PowerTech(PT) has only one way to charge a target- by jogging. Our "gap closer" consists of using rapid shots, a basic attack, and running willy-nilly until we finally get to the 10m range, where we are able to use most of our abilities. This is highly inefficient. As a matter of fact, not only would a Charge be a great PvP tool, but would also increase PvE damage by increasing our time on target. If we did get a gap closer, there would be a noticeable increase on time on target during mobile boss phases, increasing PvE DPS. It will also help PTs stay on target in PvP.

 

PTs have an impressive arsenal of tools- Grapple, which is a pull; Hydraulic Overrides, which increases our movement speed by 30% and makes us immune to physics(Layman's analysis: flipping Einstein the bird); and an impressive amount of snares in our skill trees. "If we do gain Jet Charge as a baseline ability, we may have to loose some of these", several players argue. That is a solution, bit wouldn't it be more effective for the Devs to just increase the ability to a 20 second Cooldown, decrease the root by 2s, and let PT tanks spec into changing Jet Charge into what is was previously? Nobody knows for sure. However, let's take a look at the toolkit of the other melee classes, Assassin, Marauder, and Juggernaut. Juggernauts gave the ability to leap at a friendly target to lower their threat, along with a leap that the Warrior class gets baseline, plus a push that allows them to leap to the target and resets the CD of the leap. They also wear heavy armor like us, but have much more mobility. Their CDs include Enraged Defense(Threat Drop+Heal pre-2.7), Saber ward(Melee+Ranged Defense increase+25% Force-tech damage resistance.), and Endure Pain(30% max health increase.) Assassins have Force Speed, which increases speed by 200% for a short time, stealth, an AoE knockback, and phase walk(A teleport). Their CDs are Overload Saber(Heal+Increase stance proc chance), Force Shroud(95% Immunity to F/T attacks), and a vanish, just to name a few. Marauders have the most powerful CDs out of the 3. Their Toolkit includes a raid wide damage buff, a raid wide speed and defense boost, and a stance dependent buff, along with a leap. Their CDs are (using sentinel terminology for a few, sorry) force camo(A vanish that allows them to deal indirect damage such as DoTs, 30% damage resistance, and a 45s CD) Guarded By The Force(99% DR for several seconds at the cost of 50% current HP), Cloak of Pain(Damage Reduction and damages attackers, lasts up to 30s). As you can see, the combat team(Yes, it is a team) seems to place a lot of faith in heavy armor. In paper, this idea is good, but heavy armor does not have as much damage reduction as it should. A DPS PT can get around 27% passive damage reduction, but a Marauder can get up to 31%. While this is not a "Flame Marauders" essay, this needs to be looked at.

 

Now, since we have that over with, there are people who justly believe that we do not need a leap. The PT, while HO is active, cannot be slowed or rooted, which allows us to keep moving towards our target. We also have several slows to keep our target within 10m. The PT can kite and anti-kite due to this. However, it is impossible to anti-kite a boss by slowing it down, due to Boss Immunity. While the problem of staying on target in PvP is solved through this, the problem of staying on a boss is not.

 

Jet Charge is an ability that could put the toolkit of the PTs on par with the other melee classes, and would also improve our DPS indirectly by increasing our time on target. Even though it is not a pressing matter, the combat team should rethink their stance on this issue, and possibly release a week-long test that gives PTs Jet Charge(With the changes in Paragraph 2) and decide if it would actually be overpowered.

 

 

And I thought I'd never have to use something I've learned in English class

[WillLongstick]

Amelthea here (see how ******* annoying that is),

 

If the game was balanced by touchy-feely essays, then you have some good points. However, the game is balanced by math and hard data, none of which you provide, most of which is above the community's capabilities (KeyboardNinja should roll a PT). Plain and simple, gap closing is part of the "skill ceiling" of this class.

 

"Jet Charge is an ability that could put the toolkit of the PTs on par with the other melee classes"

 

Funny how no one ever brings up Stealth Scan, Shoulder Cannon on sap-caps, OR BLOODY 10 AND 30 METER SPAMMABLE RANGED ATTACKS when comparing the "melee class" toolkits.

 

There are already 5 other threads talking about jump4all, why was another one necessary?

Edited March 6, 2014 by WillLongstick

[Transcendent]

As you can see, the combat team(Yes, it is a team) seems to place a lot of faith in heavy armor. In paper, this idea is good, but heavy armor does not have as much damage reduction as it should. A DPS PT can get around 27% passive damage reduction, but a Marauder can get up to 31%. While this is not a "Flame Marauders" essay, this needs to be looked at.

 

"Heavy armour" for any of the Bounty Hunter classes is pretty much non-existent, at least that's the way it feels when i'm playing anything other than Shield Tree PT (and to be honest, that only feels like heavy armour due to the extra abilities such as Heat Blast). So totally agree that the combat team places far too much emphasis on all Bounty Hunter classes having heavy armour. It really doesn't play that way.

 

Jet Charge is an ability that could put the toolkit of the PTs on par with the other melee classes, and would also improve our DPS indirectly by increasing our time on target. Even though it is not a pressing matter, the combat team should rethink their stance on this issue, and possibly release a week-long test that gives PTs Jet Charge(With the changes in Paragraph 2) and decide if it would actually be overpowered.

 

I think it would involve a trade-off to include Jet Charge into all the PT advanced classes, and certainly not giving it the same utility in all the trees for PT. For example AP could gain Jet Charge in place of where Stabilized Armour is placed in the tree, and that being moved down to Advanced Tools (losing that ability completely). Pyro could gain Jet Charge in place of Degauss, (but losing that ability completely). Instead of having the Shield Tech version of Jet Charge, it could be a toned down version, no immobilizing effect for instance (you have slows / stuns to use once on target anyway). While leaving the interrupt aspect in place.

 

By placing the ability higher up in the AC trees, you avoid the side affect of numerous hybrids appearing. Certainly losing a little utility in both AC (longer grapple CD for AP / less defense for Pyro for example), but gaining mobility and that gap closer.

 

It's definitely something that would benefit the DPS PT, which definitely lacks that extra mobility that makes the class a joy to play.

[OM-AR]

Well written!

 

I rolled PT because it was a fun looking gadget oriented class. But was disappointed to know after watching the trailer that jet charge was not an ability but a skill ( felt the same when I found out that marauders didn't have much hooded gear for them ).

 

Will jet charge directly increase our dps? No.

Will it make our dps more sustained? Yes example being: every boss at DP except Raptus ( 4th one ), DF draxus-brontes, TFB all bosses except terror from beyond, SNV all bosses except the dread lord and the gate commander ( droids are too close ).

 

From what I understand the pvp players are concerned that we might be over powered which will result In a nerf and that is why they opposing jet charge.

[JMagee]

I'm not going to get into an argument or try to convince people to change their mind regarding Jet Charge.

 

My opinions.

Having Jet Charge won't increase theoretical maximum DPS on any Operations boss in game. Hit a dummy for 5min, 5hrs, 5days. You'll get a pretty good idea of your ideal, perfect conditions, DPS. This is the highest damage you will be able to do on a fight where there are no mechanics. Aside from fluffing do to AoEs.

 

I completely agree that having JC will help in getting Actual Raid DPS closer to Ideal Dummy DPS. However, all this does is help on some fights. Not all fights have KBs, or positioning requirements that you can't simply keep up with if you are raid aware. Personally, if I had to choose, I would like it more for it's leap-to-enemy (looking at you Tyrans, if/ when Simplifications go to hell) , than as a DPS increase.

 

It's not a DPS increase because it doesn't create a means for our sustained DPS to increase. The fundamental PvE issue for DPS VGs is lack of sustained damage. On a dummy, with no movement, we are going to parse lower. End of story. Baseline JC may result in an up-time increase, but it doesn't affect the potential output of the class.

 

My life would be easier with JC. But easier isn't always more fun, or fair. You've read the arguments on how OP people think baseline JC would be in PvP, and I happen to agree with them, however, you seem to disagree. That's fine. I think it would lead to the ruin of the spec.

 

People like to argue about group utility on PvE a lot. And try to compare/contrast the inherent value of taunt vs. something like Inspiration. This turns leads to annoying arguments like "Maras should do more DPS because they can only DPS" and "PTs shouldn't be punished because they tank and DPS" and the complement "PTs should be penalized because they have 2 roles compared to Maras." I would submit that the group utility provided by PTs in WZs is much greater than the group utility provided by Maras. Taunts are more useful than Bloodlust.

 

You then present a large paragraph where you talk out of context about who has what and why it's good. You mention DR%. I don't know if you're talking about PvE or PvP here, but in PvE my VG has over 30% DR, without taking the 2% bonus skill, so that 27% number seems a bit off (unless you're referring to PvP, which is not an ideal comparison because of Expertise (de)buffs.

Edited March 6, 2014 by JMagee

[ScytheEleven]

Sigh...

 

I'm done trying to argue against this. There is no reason for PT's to get Jet Charge besides people thinking it looks cool. It would not help you in PVE. It would make you overpowered as a DPS in PVP. If you don't think that last part is true, stop playing this class because (at the risk of sounding rude), you are doing it wrong.

 

If you guys really want to hammer the Devs for Jet Charge, be prepared to suffer the giant PVP nerf that will follow.

[Ottoattack]

To the OP, there was no need to create a new thread, we already had one. Also, I am not sure how survivability and gap closer are related, and for that, PT dps has better survivability than jugg, sin (close call on deception) and close to marauder (if you factor in the range options). Again, range and gap closer options do not indicate PT needs JC.

[Kooziejr]

*sigh*

 

This is not an introductory essay. It is a biased view.

 

Look at this thread and see the QQ there is already (one of many about Pyros) - I have read about 5 in the past week asking for nerfs already....meanwhile we are asking for new moves to buff us hehe: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=722463

Edited March 7, 2014 by Kooziejr

[TACeMossie]

*sigh*

 

This is not an introductory essay. It is a biased view.

 

Look at this thread and see the QQ there is already (one of many about Pyros) - I have read about 5 in the past week asking for nerfs already....meanwhile we are asking for new moves to buff us hehe: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=722463

 

I'd also like to point out I had a ranked match where it was 3dps VGs + 1 hybrid heals sage, vs 1 DPS VG 1 Hybrid Heals sage 1 Sent and a Shadow, and the 3VG 1 Sage team obliterated the other team, because the sage just got pulled in so many times they couldn't escape and were burned down in seconds.

[Avicii]

It was either that or "Jett Not Munky."

 

Duran'del here: blah blah *********** blah blah blah *********** blah blah blah *********** blah

 

 

And I thought I'd never have to use something I've learned in English class

 

M.F. Here;

 

Everyone is now dumber for having read this nonsensical BS. It was been stated in other threads what the issues are to the OP specifically yet you need to make another thread and go off in the mother *********** weeds with it. The basis of your argument is it's cool, which hold no weight in a game were class balance is needed. You might have a better argument that they need to return Iron Fist or Carolina Parakeet at least with those specs you sacraficed DPS for surviability and jet charge and they were fun. This request is a prime example of why the game should be balanced around the top 10% of players.

 

This boils down to being selfish and only caring about what is fun for you and what you think is cool, essentially a single player game mentality.

 

Players with much more experience and a considerable better grasp of class and game mechanics trying to explain it over and over. This thread "ironically" serves no purpose. You can't cherry pick abilities from certain class to compare why JC should be baseline you have to take all anities and class design into account plus other classes entire ability tool kit and how they interact as Koozie and others have stated multiple times to the OP and others in multiple other threads.

 

This sums it up the best:

Duran'del here:

a bumbling idiot who isn't smart enough...

Oh and this *********** suggestion of give us 2 weeks with JC to test it or build us a test server with it is laughable and further shows a lack of understanding of development and project planning but don't feel bad most don't understand that process.

 

Might be harsh but enough is enough either provide a real factual based argument using the numbers, game mechanics and class mechanics to justify a change of this magnitude or stop the BS. This argument is not cherry picking abilities to compare as weakly attempted here.

Once you attempt to do this for real with an unbiased look at the game the issues of this change should be apparently clear.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Avicii

[Brunner_Venda]

I think the kid said once in the PVP forum that he shares an account with his brother. That's why he distinguishes who is posting with 'duran'del here'. It's annoying but it makes sense.

 

Anyways. Erm no. I've already stated a dozen times why it's OP.

 

I would much rather have slows baked into Pyro and AP trees. You use those slows to control your enemies and keep them out of four meter saber attack range, and into our ten meter flame burst/thermal det range. Unlike many other classes, our slows can be applied constantly, and AP already runs 20% faster in combat on top of that.

 

We already have a pull on top of the slows, a leap would be out of this world overpowered, because of too many options.

 

We don't need jet charge. You're a terrible player if you need it as a DPS. Tanks need this to close into an enemy right away to guard someone (your healer). Tanks don't get sweltering heat or retractable blade, and oil slick has a huge CD.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

I think the kid said once in the PVP forum that he shares an account with his brother. That's why he distinguishes who is posting with 'duran'del here'. It's annoying but it makes sense.

 

Anyways. Erm no. I've already stated a dozen times why it's OP.

 

I would much rather have slows baked into Pyro and AP trees. You use those slows to control your enemies and keep them out of four meter saber attack range, and into our ten meter flame burst/thermal det range. Unlike many other classes, our slows can be applied constantly, and AP already runs 20% faster in combat on top of that.

 

We already have a pull on top of the slows, a leap would be out of this world overpowered, because of too many options.

 

We don't need jet charge. You're a terrible player if you need it as a DPS. Tanks need this to close into an enemy right away to guard someone (your healer). Tanks don't get sweltering heat or retractable blade, and oil slick has a huge CD.

 

 

Correction Tanks can spec into a 50% slow for Ion Cell's DoT, So if anything they dont need Jet Charge either! That would stop the QQ because each of the specs wouldnt have a leap, So people wouldnt say it's Unbalanced. I for one am still an enthusiast of the Jet Charge for all specs, 1. It looks *********** amazing, best leap in the game, second best ability in the game (first is Flame Sweep). 2. Hydraulic Overrides is totally situational, it's the only class that's Melee or 10 meter range that has it, meaning other specs DONT need it that are in the same classification so why do we have it? Obviously the Devs didnt think of it. 3. Grapple/Harpoon has such a long CD for Pyro that in PvP it isnt efficent for peeling someone off a healer (that's what i use Grapple/Harpoon for anyway, that or peeling a DPS off someone beating on their healer) even AP's CD for Harpoon is a bit harsh.

[Kawabonga]

Just give it up omg :/

Jet charge will remain a tank only ability, and rightfully so.

"I want jetcharge because it looks cool" isn't an argument. Death stars are cool as well, why can't we summon death stars and destroy the damn enemy bunker in novare coast?

PvE wise, jet charge does absolutely nothing. If you're starting a boss fight from 30 meters you can blame yourself, bosses won't aggro at 15, and that's where one should be. Getting into the 10m range takes one GCD. As for the actual boss fights, very few bosses actually needs you to jump back and forth. If there are adds, let the ranged deal with them, or use your many ranged options do deal with them.

PvP wise adding jet charge to dds would be way too much combined with all the ranged options, pull and HO, which is an very very close to being an overpowered ability.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Kawabonga

[ScytheEleven]

If we get Jet Charge, then:

 

- Reduce Flame Burst range to 4m

- Reduce Rail Shot to 10m

- Reduce Rapid Shots to 10m

- Reduce Explosive Dart to 10m

- Reduce Immolate, TD, and IM to 4m

 

As you can see...no. Don't want or need Jet Charge.

[Kooziejr]

M.F. Here;

 

Everyone is now dumber for having read this nonsensical BS. It was been stated in other threads what the issues are to the OP specifically yet you need to make another thread and go off in the mother *********** weeds with it. The basis of your argument is it's cool, which hold no weight in a game were class balance is needed. You might have a better argument that they need to return Iron Fist or Carolina Parakeet at least with those specs you sacraficed DPS for surviability and jet charge and they were fun. This request is a prime example of why the game should be balanced around the top 10% of players.

 

This boils down to being selfish and only caring about what is fun for you and what you think is cool, essentially a single player game mentality.

 

Players with much more experience and a considerable better grasp of class and game mechanics trying to explain it over and over. This thread "ironically" serves no purpose. You can't cherry pick abilities from certain class to compare why JC should be baseline you have to take all anities and class design into account plus other classes entire ability tool kit and how they interact as Koozie and others have stated multiple times to the OP and others in multiple other threads.

 

This sums it up the best:

 

Oh and this *********** suggestion of give us 2 weeks with JC to test it or build us a test server with it is laughable and further shows a lack of understanding of development and project planning but don't feel bad most don't understand that process.

 

Might be harsh but enough is enough either provide a real factual based argument using the numbers, game mechanics and class mechanics to justify a change of this magnitude or stop the BS. This argument is not cherry picking abilities to compare as weakly attempted here.

Once you attempt to do this for real with an unbiased look at the game the issues of this change should be apparently clear.

 

Pure gold quotes. Definitely had a good chuckle reading this I honestly think you summed everything up perfectly. They are plain and simply very selfish gamers.

 

On a sidenote Iron Fist was my first PvP spec...they were good times.

[Kooziejr]

Correction Tanks can spec into a 50% slow for Ion Cell's DoT, So if anything they dont need Jet Charge either! That would stop the QQ because each of the specs wouldnt have a leap, So people wouldnt say it's Unbalanced. I for one am still an enthusiast of the Jet Charge for all specs, 1. It looks *********** amazing, best leap in the game, second best ability in the game (first is Flame Sweep). 2. Hydraulic Overrides is totally situational, it's the only class that's Melee or 10 meter range that has it, meaning other specs DONT need it that are in the same classification so why do we have it? Obviously the Devs didnt think of it. 3. Grapple/Harpoon has such a long CD for Pyro that in PvP it isnt efficent for peeling someone off a healer (that's what i use Grapple/Harpoon for anyway, that or peeling a DPS off someone beating on their healer) even AP's CD for Harpoon is a bit harsh.

 

Shut up idiot.

[AAntan]

1. It looks *********** amazing, best leap in the game...

 

See? This is the kind of arguments people use to ask for JC, they dont think on balance at all... and that's why we don't take them seriously... yet they keep coming.

[Luckeyduckey]

M.F. Here;

 

Everyone is now dumber for having read this nonsensical BS. It was been stated in other threads what the issues are to the OP specifically yet you need to make another thread and go off in the mother *********** weeds with it. The basis of your argument is it's cool, which hold no weight in a game were class balance is needed. You might have a better argument that they need to return Iron Fist or Carolina Parakeet at least with those specs you sacraficed DPS for surviability and jet charge and they were fun. This request is a prime example of why the game should be balanced around the top 10% of players.

 

This boils down to being selfish and only caring about what is fun for you and what you think is cool, essentially a single player game mentality.

 

Players with much more experience and a considerable better grasp of class and game mechanics trying to explain it over and over. This thread "ironically" serves no purpose. You can't cherry pick abilities from certain class to compare why JC should be baseline you have to take all anities and class design into account plus other classes entire ability tool kit and how they interact as Koozie and others have stated multiple times to the OP and others in multiple other threads.

 

This sums it up the best:

 

Oh and this *********** suggestion of give us 2 weeks with JC to test it or build us a test server with it is laughable and further shows a lack of understanding of development and project planning but don't feel bad most don't understand that process.

 

Might be harsh but enough is enough either provide a real factual based argument using the numbers, game mechanics and class mechanics to justify a change of this magnitude or stop the BS. This argument is not cherry picking abilities to compare as weakly attempted here.

Once you attempt to do this for real with an unbiased look at the game the issues of this change should be apparently clear.

 

I laughed so *********** hard at those quotes. I've ALWAYS hated how he said "durr an'del here". We know you're Duran'del. But we still don't care. I've already stated in another thread why this would be stupidly overpowered, so I'll leave it at that.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Luckeyduckey

[Mularky]

Seriously? I was not complaining about how PTs were nerfed. I was annoyed about how you guys were treating me like I.was some sort of mentally challenged, life-support-required person.

 

I didn't say anything about you. Everyone doesn't want jet charge replacing and overwriting it over hold the line. There is no dps boost to be made. I personally don't know where to start by buffing PT PVE dps with out conflicting with PVP dps. How about more ideas from other people rather than bashing someones idea.

 

There was no way anyone was to know that you have a mental disorder.

 

P.S. You can't take what people say on the internet serious.

[Cempa]

OP I am not with you regarding PT lack of gap closer, in fact I have not felt the gap issue until you raised it, Grapple is an amazing base line ability which I LOVE!

 

I play Pyro so maybe AP feels a bit different not sure, but as Pyro I am ranged with one exception and I love that...Melee classes do most of there damage from 4m and less...I do most of my damage from 10m!

 

What would I do with a charge as pyro...nothing...and AP can spec into lower CD Grapple if that is such an issue...

 

I will add that with a charge, as pyro, I can see a massive storm of rage posts...No one would be safe...I would never die...

Edited March 9, 2014 by Cempa

[Kooziejr]

PS: I reported your post because it contained a veiled suicide threat. I want you to get help, nobody wants to see that happen.

 

Likewise. Please look after yourself.

[TheSupaCoopa]

Duran'del here:

 

I apologize for any concern I caused you people. I think extremely irrationally sometimes, and it it's hard on both my family and myself.

 

I guess this is because my social skills are nonexistent, and I easily misinterpreted what people say. If people say I'm a bad player, my brain goes in an illogical route and thinks that means I've failed at something. I guess that's why I try to do stuff a bit... well, I try too hard.

 

I'm normally a different and more upbeat person when I'm playing, but that wasn't the case for a while. I was new to tanking higher content, and made plenty of mistakes. I was literally scared of queuing for a 55 HM. It doss sound weird, but I guess it made sense to me.

Edited March 10, 2014 by TheSupaCoopa

[Nezyrworks]

Shut up idiot.

 

Laughed so hard. Couldn't express it better

[Melon_Lord]

I'm not saying we should get JC, but damn would it be nice to have for NiM Brontes Lightning Clock phase.