Is SWTOR the pariah of MMOs?

[Genghistwelve]

I play a variety of MMOs but SWTOR is my main game. And whenever this game is mentioned in chat channels of other games, or on other forums, the common response is "lol".

 

It's almost embarrassing to say you play SWTOR? Is it like this across the genre or just in certain games? Curious what other peeps have noticed.

 

To the OP; the samples of each individual "other" MMO is not a natural perception of this game; very clearly, they are self-selected and full of bias towards any other MMO not their own favorite.

 

What you observe is inherent within the MMO community towards any games not one's "own." It is a hobby to bash the "others."

 

You can also look towards consoles and platforms for the same observations of very nearly the same communities.

 

Usually, but not always, this behavior is most commonly exhibited and felt strongest by those whose love is "lower" on the list as reflected towards the higher on the list they're bashing.

[Eillack]

Lol.

 

I can't even take this post seriously.

 

"OMG my microcosm of gaming says SWTOR sucks. So it must be true."

 

Compare the game from launch to current day.

 

The way I feel about SWTOR is not from some random people on the Internet, its because I've se first hand how far SWTOR went down hill.

[Arkerus]

Compare the game from launch to current day.

 

The way I feel about SWTOR is not from some random people on the Internet, its because I've se first hand how far SWTOR went down hill.

 

You just proved my point.

 

Your microcosm says it must be true therefore its true, regardless of the cold hard financial facts.

 

Why don't you man up and quit or are you just complaining to complain?

Edited February 16, 2014 by Arkerus

[chuixupu]

I was actually rather surprised the other night when SWTOR came up in a Wildstar beta chat and people were all generally very positive about it. I kept waiting for for people to start bashing it but it never happened.

[Captiosus]

Your microcosm says it must be true therefore its true, regardless of the cold hard financial facts.

 

Being profitable doesn't equal being "good".

Correlation is not causation.

 

There are many MMOs that are profitable based on their financial plan but they're not high quality MMOs. Star Trek Online comes to mind. SWTOR is profitable based on their post-F2P financial plan. Because of their F2P model, they don't have to fear player churn nearly as much as subscription MMOs - in fact, they can embrace it because fresh players means more potential revenue streams. However, this model comes at the cost of content delivery. Yes, I've seen the roadmap and, frankly, it's really not THAT impressive if you breakdown the list of supposed new content (2 new flashpoints, the exact same OPs as currently (only with increased difficulty & tier gear) and a smattering of PVP bits).

 

They're effectively in a holding pattern, making as much money as they can (and I don't begrudge them for that) but, as you've pointed out, modern MMO players are more nomadic than ever and they'll be quick to bail on a game that doesn't give them regular content updates or is too similar to every other offering. Sadly, SWTOR is guilty of both. Content updates that AREN'T exclusive to the market are slow to come and it's still just your typical WoW-esque clone MMO that doesn't offer anything fresh to the genre. Frankly, it's the longevity of the source IP that's been propping up the game, nothing else. The Star Wars IP can draw people in no matter what.

 

What I'm waiting to see is what impact, if any, Wildstar has on SWTOR. Wildstar has the sci-fi theme that appeals to many SWTOR players but will it be fresh enough in the genre to pull people away?

Edited February 16, 2014 by Captiosus

[Arkerus]

Being profitable doesn't equal being "good".

Correlation is not causation.

 

There are many MMOs that are profitable based on their financial plan but they're not high quality MMOs. Star Trek Online comes to mind. SWTOR is profitable based on their post-F2P financial plan. Because of their F2P model, they don't have to fear player churn nearly as much as subscription MMOs - in fact, they can embrace it because fresh players means more potential revenue streams. However, this model comes at the cost of content delivery. Yes, I've seen the roadmap and, frankly, it's really not THAT impressive if you breakdown the list of supposed new content (2 new flashpoints, the exact same OPs as currently (only with increased difficulty & tier gear) and a smattering of PVP bits).

 

They're effectively in a holding pattern, making as much money as they can (and I don't begrudge them for that) but, as you've pointed out, modern MMO players are more nomadic than ever and they'll be quick to bail on a game that doesn't give them regular content updates or is too similar to every other offering. Sadly, SWTOR is guilty of both. Content updates that AREN'T exclusive to the market are slow to come and it's still just your typical WoW-esque clone MMO that doesn't offer anything fresh to the genre. Frankly, it's the longevity of the source IP that's been propping up the game, nothing else. The Star Wars IP can draw people in no matter what.

 

What I'm waiting to see is what impact, if any, Wildstar has on SWTOR. Wildstar has the sci-fi theme that appeals to many SWTOR players but will it be fresh enough in the genre to pull people away?

 

You're right, people are just dropping money into EA's hands because...they don't know any better?

Seriously. I don't know how some of you come up with this stuff.

 

And if anyone is playing JUST because its Star Wars then they obviously can't make very good decisions. Not naming anyone here. That's a general statement.

 

You can try and claim its not a good game and people are accident paying a bunch of money to play it, but that argument hold about as much water and people claiming EA is lying on their financial statement.

[NoFishing]

And if anyone is playing JUST because its Star Wars then they obviously can't make very good decisions. Not naming anyone here. That's a general statement.

 

If wasn't for the IP, 90% of games based on movies would never sell a single copy, because they are terrible games. And yeah, buying those is almost always a bad decision, but one most of us have probably made and regretted at one time or another. <Shakes fist at Enter the Matrix!>

 

Now ToR isn't a terrible game, but that doesn't mean there isn't a population that is picking this game over another because they like SW.

Edited February 16, 2014 by NoFishing

[Lium]

I was actually rather surprised the other night when SWTOR came up in a Wildstar beta chat and people were all generally very positive about it. I kept waiting for for people to start bashing it but it never happened.

 

That's actually good to hear. Maybe because it's another sci-fi game? I'm looking forward to Wildstar.

 

As to the other responses in this thread, while its true that bashing every other MMO except the one you play or the ones that have been shut down is a favorite past time of MMO'ers, the attitude directed towards SWTOR is different. It's not really bashing, it's more along the lines of Hello Kitty. That's what I was saying.

 

GW2 gets bashed. Tera gets bashed. WoW gets bashed (more than any other). SWTOR gets laughed at. That's what my point was. I mean, it certainly doesn't influence my opinion of the game. I love SWTOR and as I said, I play it the most and will continue to do so.

 

I was just curious if others experienced the same reactions.

[Floredon]

People in this thread haven't played Star Trek Online. Or The Secret World. Or APB. Or Vanguard. Or Fallen Earth. Or Fury. Now those games have something to laugh about. The space combat in STO is decent though, and you can see some similarities in the systems btw/GSF and STO space combat. I'm hoping that GSF eventually gives us PVE space combat as in STO.

[Eillack]

You just proved my point.

 

Your microcosm says it must be true therefore its true, regardless of the cold hard financial facts.

 

Why don't you man up and quit or are you just complaining to complain?

 

Just because profit is made, it doesn't make SWTOR the best thing since sliced bread. If the Cartel Market was never put into SWTOR and we stayed P2P, I can honestly say the game would be gasping for breath.

 

Seems you are a tad too sensitive to people bringing up negative points of view.

 

Being profitable doesn't equal being "good".

Correlation is not causation.

 

There are many MMOs that are profitable based on their financial plan but they're not high quality MMOs. Star Trek Online comes to mind. SWTOR is profitable based on their post-F2P financial plan. Because of their F2P model, they don't have to fear player churn nearly as much as subscription MMOs - in fact, they can embrace it because fresh players means more potential revenue streams. However, this model comes at the cost of content delivery. Yes, I've seen the roadmap and, frankly, it's really not THAT impressive if you breakdown the list of supposed new content (2 new flashpoints, the exact same OPs as currently (only with increased difficulty & tier gear) and a smattering of PVP bits).

 

They're effectively in a holding pattern, making as much money as they can (and I don't begrudge them for that) but, as you've pointed out, modern MMO players are more nomadic than ever and they'll be quick to bail on a game that doesn't give them regular content updates or is too similar to every other offering. Sadly, SWTOR is guilty of both. Content updates that AREN'T exclusive to the market are slow to come and it's still just your typical WoW-esque clone MMO that doesn't offer anything fresh to the genre. Frankly, it's the longevity of the source IP that's been propping up the game, nothing else. The Star Wars IP can draw people in no matter what.

 

What I'm waiting to see is what impact, if any, Wildstar has on SWTOR. Wildstar has the sci-fi theme that appeals to many SWTOR players but will it be fresh enough in the genre to pull people away?

 

^

Edited February 16, 2014 by Eillack

[dargor-]

This thread is the Pariah of threads

[JoeeyyMagzz]

Sorry, but the bolded part if incorrect. Pretending that Bioware did not make lots of mistakes at launch is silly. They had 2 million subs then, and now we have "just under 500k" as they termed it. I agree, right now the game is successful, I like the rate of content release and they make a lot of revenue from Cartel Market, but no, the game would have been far more successful if it had any sub retention at launch.

 

The game never had 2 million subs. 2 million people bought the game and most played the first free month.

Edited February 16, 2014 by JoeeyyMagzz

[Arkerus]

Just because profit is made, it doesn't make SWTOR the best thing since sliced bread. If the Cartel Market was never put into SWTOR and we stayed P2P, I can honestly say the game would be gasping for breath.

 

Seems you are a tad too sensitive to people bringing up negative points of view.

 

 

 

^

 

Did I say it was the greatest game in the universe? No. I never even insinuated it. I enjoy this game. That does not mean its the best, or even my favorite. More than anything, I am pointing at the fallacies is people's arguments.

 

Now, if you want to claim all those people, paying all that money are simply stupid and you know better, by all means try and make that argument. You will look foolish, like those saying this game is going to die when TESO and WS are released. But please, by all means, try and make that argument.

 

I get a good chuckle when the quarterly reports come out and SWTOR is still a top performer.

[Eillack]

Did I say it was the greatest game in the universe? No. I never even insinuated it. I enjoy this game. That does not mean its the best, or even my favorite. More than anything, I am pointing at the fallacies is people's arguments.

 

Now, if you want to claim all those people, paying all that money are simply stupid and you know better, by all means try and make that argument. You will look foolish, like those saying this game is going to die when TESO and WS are released. But please, by all means, try and make that argument.

 

I get a good chuckle when the quarterly reports come out and SWTOR is still a top performer.

 

Struck a nerve did I?

 

And hmmm, did I say at all that SWTOR was going to die in the near future? Nope. Nice try though.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Eillack

[Arkerus]

Struck a nerve did I?

 

And hmmm, did I say at all that SWTOR was going to die in the near future? Nope. Nice try though.

 

No nerve struck. Just pointing out the absurdity of people's arguments.

 

It rather easy to do around here. The armchair industry analysts are always good for a laugh or some casual Sunday reading.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Arkerus

[Eillack]

No nerve struck. Just pointing out the absurdity of people's arguments.

 

It rather easy to do around here. The armchair industry analysts are always good for a laugh or some casual Sunday reading.

 

How is my personal experience some "armchair industry analyst?" For myself and those that have already left, SWTOR stopped being a certain quality that it originally had - simple as that. When I started SWTOR I came with very low expectations, for the most part this game was worth the time investments and the minor grinds, but at one point, recycled content just loses it touch.

 

You're almost acting like I'm saying that anyone who is still having fun is wrong or evil, and that I would want this game to shutdown.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Eillack

[Arkerus]

How is my personal experience some "armchair industry analyst?" For myself and those that have already left, SWTOR stopped being a certain quality that it originally had - simple as that. When I started SWTOR I came with very low expectations, for the most part this game was worth the time investments and the minor grinds, but at one point, recycled content just loses it touch.

 

You're almost acting like I'm saying that anyone who is still having fun is wrong or evil, and that I would want this game to shutdown.

 

So why are you telling the forums? I have been critical about this game in many ways. I don't, however, pretend like I have some point to prove and need validation from the herd. Constructive rather than destructive. You are quick to defend those who troll the forums because it validates your opinion. And that's rather...sad.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Arkerus

[Lium]

People in this thread haven't played Star Trek Online. Or The Secret World. Or APB. Or Vanguard. Or Fallen Earth. Or Fury. Now those games have something to laugh about. The space combat in STO is decent though, and you can see some similarities in the systems btw/GSF and STO space combat. I'm hoping that GSF eventually gives us PVE space combat as in STO.

 

Disagree on the bolded. TSW is a great game and I play it when I'm not here. Check the OT forum to see my thoughts on the game as well as what others think as well. That game basically makes a liar out of the MMO community.

[Eillack]

So why are you telling the forums? I have been critical about this game in many ways. I don't, however, pretend like I have some point to prove and need validation from the herd. Constructive rather and destructive. You are quick to defend those who troll the forums because it validates your opinion. And that's rather...sad.

 

If that was the case, then why have you been having a fit?

 

I'm pretty sure all your post that you've been trying to look big is to attempt at making some sort of unknown point haha.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Eillack

[Jay-Kor]

As a Star Trek fan all my life, all I'll say is that STO is a pathetic joke.

 

As a Star Wars fan all my life, at least TOR does the IP justice.

[AshlaBoga]

Being profitable doesn't equal being "good".

Correlation is not causation.

 

There are many MMOs that are profitable based on their financial plan but they're not high quality MMOs. Star Trek Online comes to mind. SWTOR is profitable based on their post-F2P financial plan. Because of their F2P model, they don't have to fear player churn nearly as much as subscription MMOs - in fact, they can embrace it because fresh players means more potential revenue streams. However, this model comes at the cost of content delivery. Yes, I've seen the roadmap and, frankly, it's really not THAT impressive if you breakdown the list of supposed new content (2 new flashpoints, the exact same OPs as currently (only with increased difficulty & tier gear) and a smattering of PVP bits).

 

They're effectively in a holding pattern, making as much money as they can (and I don't begrudge them for that) but, as you've pointed out, modern MMO players are more nomadic than ever and they'll be quick to bail on a game that doesn't give them regular content updates or is too similar to every other offering. Sadly, SWTOR is guilty of both. Content updates that AREN'T exclusive to the market are slow to come and it's still just your typical WoW-esque clone MMO that doesn't offer anything fresh to the genre. Frankly, it's the longevity of the source IP that's been propping up the game, nothing else. The Star Wars IP can draw people in no matter what.

 

What I'm waiting to see is what impact, if any, Wildstar has on SWTOR. Wildstar has the sci-fi theme that appeals to many SWTOR players but will it be fresh enough in the genre to pull people away?

 

Wildstar is just too cartoony for me. And I'm holding out on ESO just because it's getting some bad reviews.

 

But I'm hoping when EQN launches (2015) that it will suit my tastes.

[BJWyler]

Being profitable doesn't equal being "good".

Correlation is not causation.

 

Good is a subjective quality. What one person considers good, can be considered bad by another and vice versa.

 

Personally speaking, I don't need a piece of artwork to be the Mona Lisa in order to enjoy it or consider it to be good by my own standards. What other people think of those standards is also irrelevant. My standards are based upon what provides me fun and enjoyment in life. Some may consider those things "low standards" and others might think of them as "high standards" based upon standards of their own they have set out. No one's standards can be judged to be right nor wrong because, ultimately, that is a purely personal thing, and thankfully, we are not all clones who need to feel the same way about everything.

 

Whether one person, one hundred people, or one million people think this game is personally "good" or not is completely irrelevant. What over one million people did at this point in time two years ago is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that enough people think it is good enough for their own personal tastes to keep the game profitable now. Thus far the financials continue to bear that out. Is SWTOR a Mona Lisa? No, but that does not mean it still cannot be hung in a museum for people to enjoy and for it to put food on the table of the artist.

 

Now in terms of CM updates coming at a faster clip than content updates. Why is that surprising? Do you people really think that the time it takes to build an armor/costume set for the CM is the same amount of time it takes to build a Flashpoint/Quest/Operation? That's utterly asinine. Of course CM updates will happen more frequently because they are quick and easy. They are the five minute ham sandwich I make for lunch. Actual playable content will take longer because it needs to take longer - the same way making a meatloaf from scratch takes a hell of a lot more time and effort than my ham sandwich.

Edited February 17, 2014 by BJWyler

[Elfindreams]

Nop. It's not. Usually what you are seeing most of the time in these other games are either SWG veterans that did not get SWG 2. People who had WAY too high of expectations for this game even though they saw what they were getting (it's called delusional) and people who just for the sake of hating and bashing a game will hate and bash it no matter what.

 

This one has always made me wonder... I remember the early days of SWG. The SWG release made SWTOR's release look like perfection. Massive bugs, whole parts of the game missing, constant server crashes, etc. Even when it equalized the game was incomplete. Never mind end game, whole sections of the whole game were missing from SWG. It took them nearly a year to put space into a star wars game. When they did complete things (the Jedi holocron grind that defined AFK and macro grinding to the rest of the industry, the CU, NGE, etc) they ended up doing the wrong thing almost by rote.

 

Don't get me wrong, lots of people loved the game, and it had its charm, but people need to compare SWTOR with what it is, a MMO entering its third year. They are inevitably comparing it against WOW which is in its what 10th year now?

 

The examples people point to and say "this is a failure since every MMO should have X" are forgetting how things are in MMOs. It took WOW 7 years before it added cross realm grouping.

 

Now, does this game have its issues, hells yes... but people need to stop comparing it with rose tinted glasses pointed at the other games.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Elfindreams

[Sarfux]

This one has always made me wonder... I remember the early days of SWG. The SWG release made SWTOR's release look like perfection. Massive bugs, whole parts of the game missing, constant server crashes, etc. Even when it equalized the game was incomplete. Never mind end game, whole sections of the whole game were missing from SWG. It took them nearly a year to put space into a star wars game. When they did complete things (the Jedi holocron grind that defined AFK and macro grinding to the rest of the industry, the CU, NGE, etc) they ended up doing the wrong thing almost by rote.

 

Don't get me wrong, lots of people loved the game, and it had its charm, but people need to compare SWTOR with what it is, a MMO entering its third year. They are inevitably comparing it against WOW which is in its what 10th year now?

 

The examples people point to and say "this is a failure since every MMO should have X" are forgetting how things are in MMOs. It took WOW 7 years before it added cross realm grouping.

 

Now, does this game have its issues, hells yes... but people need to stop comparing it with rose tinted glasses pointed at the other games.

Well said!

[agamemnon-]

The examples people point to and say "this is a failure since every MMO should have X" are forgetting how things are in MMOs. It took WOW 7 years before it added cross realm grouping..

 

I agree with everything else you said but this. Sure, it took WoW a few years to get cross realm grouping, but that is from a 2004 release.

 

There gets to a point where "this is an MMO, it takes time" is no longer an excuse. MMOs have been out long enough that certain features have just become the norm. What has taken one MMO 6 years to implement is expected to be common features in any subsequent games. I'm certain that after SWTOR, companies well be looking at making sure any solo experience has a well presented story to go along with it. It will be hard for gamers to accept anything else other than a good story and decent story after SWTOR (and possibly TSW).

 

If a dev is hellbent on playing it safe by not reinventing the wheel, they need to be darn sure that the wheel they are copying has the same amount of lug nuts.

Edited February 18, 2014 by agamemnon-