dps meter

[Zothlar]

Brawndo has what plants crave. It has electrolytes.

 

Same tired, selfish crap people have been posting for pages. Elitism, blah blah, ruins community, blah blah, you don't need them anyway, blah blah.

 

Since ideally a discussion is interactive, I'll ask for someone to please try to answer the following questions:

 

If there are people in the game that have the most fun in a high powered, optimized, min/maxed group (with meters), and that isn't your idea of fun, then why do you think the right answer is to force them to play your way (without meters) instead of you finding a group of people that fits with you better?

 

If you don't like the way "most people" will use the meters, why can you not just avoid grouping with them?

[Eveleria]

Same tired, selfish crap people have been posting for pages. Elitism, blah blah, ruins community, blah blah, you don't need them anyway, blah blah.

 

Since ideally a discussion is interactive, I'll ask for someone to please try to answer the following questions:

 

If there are people in the game that have the most fun in a high powered, optimized, min/maxed group (with meters), and that isn't your idea of fun, then why do you think the right answer is to force them to play your way (without meters) instead of you finding a group of people that fits with you better?

 

If you don't like the way "most people" will use the meters, why can you not just avoid grouping with them?

 

Well actually at the moment you are trying to force something into this game not me.

 

I think i already pointed out why you can´t just avoid it.

Once it gets into the game the community will force it onto you, and it won´t matter if you like it or not. You seem to be denying this fact so i give you another reason. Having those tools developers will eventually start to build new content around those possibilities which will make it even more mandatory to use them. So your plan: Play with other people just won´t do.

 

And you didn´t really read what i wrote did you? I wrote that i wouldn´t mind a combat log and the possibility to log your own dps and mob actions. Which is something everyone could be content with since guilds could pool there data offline and the gameplay itself wouldn´t be touched in such a massive way realtime meters would do.

 

Still nobody forces you to not optimize your character in the given state of the game, which i assume is your goal.

If your only goal is to have a realtime dps meter, well then we just have different aims.

 

So if you think i want to force someone to play without meters, then you should have recognized by now that you are doing the same just for playing with meters.

 

 

Greetings

[GengisKahn]

See now, this is exactly the kind of **** that creates even more elitism in a community. Check Wow for reference. I hope they never allow this kind of bullcrap in the game.

 

For example: In Lotro there are no add-ons, tanks have learn how to hold aggro, dps classes need to learn when they are about to pull aggro and how to balance max dps with threat, etc...

 

Agro and dps meters are unnecessary and only destroy the fun in an MMO. Are you THAT insecure about yourself that you feel you need something to tell you you are playing the right way in a game? L O L

 

edit: thank you to the 2 guys above me for proving my point.

 

There had been dps meters in wow since vanilla.

 

Dps meters dont create a thing, people are or arent elitists, they dont become elitists because of meters, if anything, meter can let you know faster who is an elitists so you can stay away from it.

 

Meters do favor those of that want to play this game a little more seriously. Right now this game is a joke, and that's because you cant know with hard data if any change in you build, rotation or playstyle would improve your char over what you are doing now.

 

Meterss dont destroy anything either, if you dont want to use them, then DONT. It isnt about being insecure, its about maxing your character capabilities.

[GengisKahn]

Well actually at the moment you are trying to force something into this game not me.

 

I think i already pointed out why you can´t just avoid it.

Once it gets into the game the community will force it onto you, and it won´t matter if you like it or not. You seem to be denying this fact so i give you another reason. Having those tools developers will eventually start to build new content around those possibilities which will make it even more mandatory to use them. So your plan: Play with other people just won´t do.

 

And you didn´t really read what i wrote did you? I wrote that i wouldn´t mind a combat log and the possibility to log your own dps and mob actions. Which is something everyone could be content with since guilds could pool there data offline and the gameplay itself wouldn´t be touched in such a massive way realtime meters would do.

 

Still nobody forces you to not optimize your character in the given state of the game, which i assume is your goal.

If your only goal is to have a realtime dps meter, well then we just have different aims.

 

So if you think i want to force someone to play without meters, then you should have recognized by now that you are doing the same just for playing with meters.

 

 

Greetings

 

No one will force you to play the way you dont want it when meters get into the game.

 

YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY LIKE YOU WANT, if anyone tries to teel you to play different, just ignore it.

 

If anything, meter will help people build a personality to stand and back up a choice they made.

 

Right now, with your opposition against meters, you are forcing many players to play like you want, with meters, you can still play like you are now and the way you like, provided you can say not to an unknown online user, which to be honest is a good thing for you to be able to. You must be capbale of saying no to unknown internet people these days, both in and out of swtor and mmo's in general.

 

You cant optimize what you cant meassure so yes, right now he is being forced to not optimize his toon.

Edited February 29, 2012 by GengisKahn

[gnoams]

First I would like to point out that we have many laws in our society to "stop people from ruining our community." Like prohibitions to smoking in public buildings, no dumping your garbage in the street, making people clean up after their dogs, etc. Just because you want it doesn't mean we should let you have it at all.

 

That being said,

I definitely would like to see combat logs added to the game. It can be helpful to see what killed you in some boss fight to help you avoid it the next go round.

Threat meters seem pointless to me I've played many different mmos and never seen a use for them whether tanking, dpsing or healing. It seems pretty obvious whether you have agro or not (gee the monster is hitting me). But it's not like it affects me in any way if you want to use one yourself so I don't really care one way or another on them.

I am on the fence about dps meters, on the one hand being able to compare yourself to others, and being able to compare yourself to your previous attempts can help you improve. On the other hand it can become a tool for trolls and other jerks who lack people skills to negatively impact my playing experience. In wow adding in meters made the game more about numbers and less about the people playing it. I would hate to see that happen here.

[GengisKahn]

First I would like to point out that we have many laws in our society to "stop people from ruining our community." Like prohibitions to smoking in public buildings, no dumping your garbage in the street, making people clean up after their dogs, etc. Just because you want it doesn't mean we should let you have it at all.

 

That being said,

I definitely would like to see combat logs added to the game. It can be helpful to see what killed you in some boss fight to help you avoid it the next go round.

Threat meters seem pointless to me I've played many different mmos and never seen a use for them whether tanking, dpsing or healing. It seems pretty obvious whether you have agro or not (gee the monster is hitting me). But it's not like it affects me in any way if you want to use one yourself so I don't really care one way or another on them.

I am on the fence about dps meters, on the one hand being able to compare yourself to others, and being able to compare yourself to your previous attempts can help you improve. On the other hand it can become a tool for trolls and other jerks who lack people skills to negatively impact my playing experience. In wow adding in meters made the game more about numbers and less about the people playing it. I would hate to see that happen here.

 

Wow had DPS meters wsince vanilla. Wow didnt become a game about nmumbers because of meters, that's the mistake many people here are making.

 

There have ALWAYS been dps meters in WoW.

[Fallenlore]

Wow had DPS meters wsince vanilla.

 

I dont think it was until a few patches into Vanilla that the damage meter mods starting to come out. Officially WoW has NEVER had a damage meter, but other players and people have developed a modification or addon to show you the dps meters.

 

Since SWtoR is brand spanking new, give em some time and we'll probably see some sort of dps meter in a few months.

[GengisKahn]

I dont think it was until a few patches into Vanilla that the damage meter mods starting to come out. Officially WoW has NEVER had a damage meter, but other players and people have developed a modification or addon to show you the dps meters.

 

Since SWtoR is brand spanking new, give em some time and we'll probably see some sort of dps meter in a few months.

 

I know it wasnt from launch (though wow had parsers since beta) but the thing is that some people think that wow had no meters in vanilla and TBC, when wow actually had meters since a few months into vanilla.

 

Again, meters had no made WoW a number crunching game.

 

Meters are neccesary if we want people to be able to optimize their toon and therefore if we want any seriousness in end game raiding.

 

Meters will come, that's a fact.

[Thankyjack]

Combat logs should be available at some point. From them, parses will become available and will be useful. DPS Meters may or may not be available after that, depending on third party development. I don't see BW creating an in-game dps meter, but they might.

 

However, don't let anyone tell you that DPS meters are necessary for progression raiding. They aren't and never have been, not in this game or any other. End game content is being and always does get finished just fine without them.

 

Parses are useful, but not for the reasons most of the scrubs responding in favor of meters believe. Those are the same people inspecting low level alts of serious, top guild raiders, and complaining about their spec. They read about some cookie cutter spec on a forum and stupidly believe that it is the best spec for everyone, for all content. Quite frankly, that's one of the reasons you may encounter those wannabes - they ply their trade in PuGs.

 

Those idiots, and there are a bunch of them, are why I hate meters. They encourage scrubs to disregard raid mechanics to pad their numbers. Here's a pro-tip, from a progression raider, learn your class, learn the fight, stay out of the bad stuff and you don't need meters.

 

That said, they are almost certainly coming. Accordingly, my advice would to learn how to use their limited information correctly. If you post dps meters after a wipe, then you need to understand that you are doing nothing but broadcasting your stupidity and/or ignorance to everyone else in the raid.

 

Don't mistake my strong distaste for most of you as an inability to play. I am usually at or near the top of recount or skada whenever I raid with PuGs. I have just seen how stupid people get over the meaningless information. Half the raid wipes to an easy mechanic and almost always some idiot posts meters like they mean something.

 

So, you may want meters, you may not. If you do, then cheers, you will probably get them. If you do not, then cheers as well, I understand your pain brother. But please, if you want them, don't support your argument for meters by stating that only scrubs are against them. I have cleared content in games you play that you have never and will never ever see and I don't want them.

[Fallenlore]

There are definately a bas side to dps meters, which you have covered. Meter padding, people posting to post, and or raids that determine who to kick are plausible reasons why bringing meters into the game may suck. You'll probably have the endless QQ about this class performing more dps for this fight vs other fights in the game. I believe the main reason they launched without these damage combat logs was to prevent something like the meters.

 

By say what you will, they do have some very good uses. I myself prefer to use a meter for a class I just rolled to 50 to get an understanding if I'm doing it right. The limited parsing I did on my SI Sorc vs my Jedi Guardian was enough for me to warrent taking another long hard look at my Guardian to see if I was doing anything wrong. In the context of an Ops group, sometimes it's that meter that will show you who's semi-afk during a fight.

 

The end result is to get the ops boss down to 0%, but if you enrage and wipe at 5% to 10% it's handy to see who's at the bottom of the meter and why. I'd surely and gladly step out if I was pulling the Ops group down and they can go ahead and pull in a ranged dps and finally down the encounter.

 

It's like most tools in life. They way you use it dictates how good or bad that tool turns out. It's all upon the player to decide that.

[Kithalt]

If you post dps meters after a wipe, then you need to understand that you are doing nothing but broadcasting your stupidity and/or ignorance to everyone else in the raid.

The one exception to this being if the wipe was to an enrage timer. Then understanding who's doing sufficient damage and who isn't is key. Otherwise, yes, it's meaningless after a wipe to avoidable mechanics.

[Zothlar]

Well actually at the moment you are trying to force something into this game not me.

 

I think i already pointed out why you can´t just avoid it.

Once it gets into the game the community will force it onto you, and it won´t matter if you like it or not.

 

I am supporting the inclusion of an OPTIONAL tool. I am not trying to force anyone to use it. You are trying to force me to accept the game without it. Once it gets into the game, the community will force nothing on you that you don't accept.

 

You seem to be denying this fact so i give you another reason. Having those tools developers will eventually start to build new content around those possibilities which will make it even more mandatory to use them. So your plan: Play with other people just won´t do.

 

Claiming that content can be built around meters is like claiming that thermometers affect the weather.

 

And you didn´t really read what i wrote did you? I wrote that i wouldn´t mind a combat log and the possibility to log your own dps and mob actions. Which is something everyone could be content with since guilds could pool there data offline and the gameplay itself wouldn´t be touched in such a massive way realtime meters would do.

 

I have read every word in this thread and the several clones that have dropped off the first page, something you clearly haven't done as evidenced by your first post. I saw your combat log idea, but you don't clearly articulate why I "should be content" with it because you are. Why can't I decide for myself what makes me content or not? Why do you get to decide for me?

 

Still nobody forces you to not optimize your character in the given state of the game, which i assume is your goal.

If your only goal is to have a realtime dps meter, well then we just have different aims.

 

So if you think i want to force someone to play without meters, then you should have recognized by now that you are doing the same just for playing with meters.

 

 

Greetings

 

I am forced not to optimize by the lack of combat log data and the convenient real time measure of that data in meter format. I have claimed in every post I've made however that using meters is optional, so you should have recognized that what you and I are doing is completely different.

[Zothlar]

However, don't let anyone tell you that DPS meters are necessary for progression raiding. They aren't and never have been, not in this game or any other. End game content is being and always does get finished just fine without them.

 

Why do you feel entitled to be the judge of what is fine? What if "just fine" for me and my friends is fastest kill times world wide? Why can't we set the bar of what is "just fine" for ourselves?

 

 

Parses are useful, but not for the reasons most of the scrubs responding in favor of meters believe. Those are the same people inspecting low level alts of serious, top guild raiders, and complaining about their spec. They read about some cookie cutter spec on a forum and stupidly believe that it is the best spec for everyone, for all content. Quite frankly, that's one of the reasons you may encounter those wannabes - they ply their trade in PuGs.

 

Those idiots, and there are a bunch of them, are why I hate meters. They encourage scrubs to disregard raid mechanics to pad their numbers. Here's a pro-tip, from a progression raider, learn your class, learn the fight, stay out of the bad stuff and you don't need meters.

 

That said, they are almost certainly coming. Accordingly, my advice would to learn how to use their limited information correctly. If you post dps meters after a wipe, then you need to understand that you are doing nothing but broadcasting your stupidity and/or ignorance to everyone else in the raid.

 

Don't mistake my strong distaste for most of you as an inability to play. I am usually at or near the top of recount or skada whenever I raid with PuGs. I have just seen how stupid people get over the meaningless information. Half the raid wipes to an easy mechanic and almost always some idiot posts meters like they mean something.

 

You keep missing the fact that people have the right to be bad. They can play a terrible spec if they want. They can spam their least damaging attack or heal. They can use the wrong gear if it makes them happy. They also have the right to misuse meters, no matter how much you think they shouldn't. I can't make it any simpler than this: If you don't like the way someone uses a meter then don't group with them.

 

So, you may want meters, you may not. If you do, then cheers, you will probably get them. If you do not, then cheers as well, I understand your pain brother. But please, if you want them, don't support your argument for meters by stating that only scrubs are against them. I have cleared content in games you play that you have never and will never ever see and I don't want them.

 

Please find any one of my posts where my argument is supported by saying anything about scrubs. Just one.

 

I don't know or care what you have or haven't cleared, but if it is in WoW it isn't possible for you to have done anything I haven't done and I want them. Which is just as irrelevant when you post it.

 

The only relevant facts are these:

 

1) some people would like to use meters to enhance their game experience

 

2) use of these meters is completely optional, as is grouping with people who use them

 

3) people who do not like meters would remain free to enjoy the game without them

[GengisKahn]

Combat logs should be available at some point. From them, parses will become available and will be useful. DPS Meters may or may not be available after that, depending on third party development. I don't see BW creating an in-game dps meter, but they might.

 

However, don't let anyone tell you that DPS meters are necessary for progression raiding. They aren't and never have been, not in this game or any other. End game content is being and always does get finished just fine without them.

 

Parses are useful, but not for the reasons most of the scrubs responding in favor of meters believe. Those are the same people inspecting low level alts of serious, top guild raiders, and complaining about their spec. They read about some cookie cutter spec on a forum and stupidly believe that it is the best spec for everyone, for all content. Quite frankly, that's one of the reasons you may encounter those wannabes - they ply their trade in PuGs.

 

Those idiots, and there are a bunch of them, are why I hate meters. They encourage scrubs to disregard raid mechanics to pad their numbers. Here's a pro-tip, from a progression raider, learn your class, learn the fight, stay out of the bad stuff and you don't need meters.

 

That said, they are almost certainly coming. Accordingly, my advice would to learn how to use their limited information correctly. If you post dps meters after a wipe, then you need to understand that you are doing nothing but broadcasting your stupidity and/or ignorance to everyone else in the raid.

 

Don't mistake my strong distaste for most of you as an inability to play. I am usually at or near the top of recount or skada whenever I raid with PuGs. I have just seen how stupid people get over the meaningless information. Half the raid wipes to an easy mechanic and almost always some idiot posts meters like they mean something.

 

So, you may want meters, you may not. If you do, then cheers, you will probably get them. If you do not, then cheers as well, I understand your pain brother. But please, if you want them, don't support your argument for meters by stating that only scrubs are against them. I have cleared content in games you play that you have never and will never ever see and I don't want them.

 

There is already an ignore feature for scribs posting meters after every fight.

 

Also, addon meters dont tell you only dps, they also tell you damage taken, interrupts, cc breaks etc.

 

You cant optimize your build without being able to measure the results, you may be happy with being just fine like you said, but others dont. Others want to push limits, others want to be better than "just fine".

 

The only real reason why people dont want meters is for scrubs posting them after pulls, which can easily be countered by ignoring them.

 

Those that do want meters, dont have any way to counter the fact that they are no9t present.

[NorwegianGoat]

I urge Bioware not to make a dps meter. In this game CC is more important than damage. I have done both EV and KP, and i know that Bioware has made the end game content almost perfect

[Nlites]

Some people just do not understand the beauty of some addons. At this point its a real pain in the neck to heal in WZ's. Having an addon that could just simply make it easier to find who is taking the dmg or CC'd would be amazing. Do you think that if healing were a part of real life that the healer would have trouble figuring out who is being attacked? No! Thanks .

[Thankyjack]

Some people just do not understand the beauty of some addons. At this point its a real pain in the neck to heal in WZ's. Having an addon that could just simply make it easier to find who is taking the dmg or CC'd would be amazing. Do you think that if healing were a part of real life that the healer would have trouble figuring out who is being attacked? No! Thanks .

 

This is the argument for logs/parses that makes sense.

 

As for the scrubs arguing that I would like to be "fine," and you use meters only to sharpen your gear or build, I call bs. Why? You talk about other people with a subpar spec using poor skills. That is something a pugger would be concerned about. PuGs are NOT at the forefront of end game raiding. Accordingly, you are your pug friends are the problem. If you want to defeat end game content get in a guild and argue over loot distribution.

 

Would you be satisfied with a dps meter system that could not be broadcast to other players? Also, we have all seen how meters are misused. An extra 100 dps is not worth the community ramifications of having meters.

[GengisKahn]

This is the argument for logs/parses that makes sense.

 

As for the scrubs arguing that I would like to be "fine," and you use meters only to sharpen your gear or build, I call bs. Why? You talk about other people with a subpar spec using poor skills. That is something a pugger would be concerned about. PuGs are NOT at the forefront of end game raiding. Accordingly, you are your pug friends are the problem. If you want to defeat end game content get in a guild and argue over loot distribution.

 

Would you be satisfied with a dps meter system that could not be broadcast to other players? Also, we have all seen how meters are misused. An extra 100 dps is not worth the community ramifications of having meters.

 

You should really stop calling others scrubs, you are only making yourself look bad and i'm pretty sure that is against the forum rules.

 

Aside from that, PuGs are not the ones that want to get their toon to the max they can. PuGs are the ones that are sattisfied being just fine.

 

People often like to blame PuGs about things that have nothing to do with them.

 

I have defeated end content in a guild, and those that want to push the limits of their toons already done that. Yet for many people, just downing the content is not enough, for many people, just fine is not acceptable, for many people, pushing the limits is the joy of playing this kind of games.

 

Those people dont have the tools to do it now.

 

We have seen how meters were missused, we have already seen how chat channels were missused, should we get rid of those too?

 

We have seen how warzones were missused, we should get rid of warzones...

 

Hell, we should get rid of the game altoguether, since every single bit of it can be missused.

 

You dont want to see how people posts meters? Ignore those that do it. i'm sure that since you are not a PuGuer you wont have any trouble with that, right?

Edited March 1, 2012 by GengisKahn

[Zothlar]

This is the argument for logs/parses that makes sense.

 

As for the scrubs arguing that I would like to be "fine," and you use meters only to sharpen your gear or build, I call bs. Why? You talk about other people with a subpar spec using poor skills. That is something a pugger would be concerned about. PuGs are NOT at the forefront of end game raiding. Accordingly, you are your pug friends are the problem. If you want to defeat end game content get in a guild and argue over loot distribution.

 

Would you be satisfied with a dps meter system that could not be broadcast to other players? Also, we have all seen how meters are misused. An extra 100 dps is not worth the community ramifications of having meters.

 

As I have said over and over again, I don't care what spec people choose, how they build it or how they play. I believe people in the game should be free to do what they want to be entertained.

 

You, however, citing unsubstantiated claims of "community ramifications", believe you should be able to prohibit people from using meters for their entertainment.

 

Could you please [3rd request] clarify why you feel you're entitled to determine how people should entertain themselves? If a group of people want to use meters and they use them incorrectly (in your opinion), why is that any business of yours? If you don't like it just don't group with them. Or if you're putting together a group, make it clear that meters aren't permitted and remove offenders. It is your right to exclude people who aren't going to help your group have fun.

 

I prefer high performance players, so I don't join pugs with people who are specced/geared incorrectly (in my opinion) and then tell them what to do. I don't try to fix them, I just don't group with them. By the same token, however, if I'm forming the group, I'm well within my rights to limit participation to people who share similar ideas of what is fun and exclude people who aren't going to help my group have fun.

 

These aren't "community ramifications". These are different philosophies of game play, and groups made of people with different goals are what creates "community ramifications". Stop blaming a tool people use for their own entertainment for what ultimately boils down to the result of millions of different people playing the same game for different reasons.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Zothlar
Typo

[Fallenlore]

I think the 2 main tools people want to see in this game are the following:

 

Dps folks want a damage meter

Healers and tanks wants a target of target window

 

Granted if I had one option available I would rather have the target of target even though I'm mainly dps on my toons. But the meters would help folks tweak their build etc. It's already in the game already, just look at the WZ summary at the end. Why not have a small floating box next to you that shows the same during a boss fight?

 

About the 100 damage difference, no one notices that. They notice if one dps is doing half of someone else's. I for one would welcome that, even if that person is me. It tells me that I either need a lot more gear, am doing something wrong, or really have no idea how to play my class. In the event it is my class that's the reason, well we can then make choices based on that.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Fallenlore

[GengisKahn]

I think the 2 main tools people want to see in this game are the following:

 

Dps folks want a damage meter

Healers and tanks wants a target of target window

 

Granted if I had one option available I would rather have the target of target even though I'm mainly dps on my toons. But the meters would help folks tweak their build etc. It's already in the game already, just look at the WZ summary at the end. Why not have a small floating box next to you that shows the same during a boss fight?

 

About the 100 damage difference, no one notices that. They notice if one dps is doing half of someone else's. I for one would welcome that, even if that person is me. It tells me that I either need a lot more gear, am doing something wrong, or really have no idea how to play my class. In the event it is my class that's the reason, well we can then make choices based on that.

 

 

Dont forget mouseover to healers.

Edited March 1, 2012 by GengisKahn

[MatthewMystery]

I Still dunno why they don't split servers and have add-on's on half no add-on's the other half if you don't want add on's go your way if you do go the other. with how they have hard modes incorporated updated content could cater to both roads. This could simply cut down on all the QQ between this never ending debate and let people play to the style that best suits them. I mean they did it with PvP vs PvE vs RP Severs And If you think about it all it comes down too in both cases is what play style is best suited for you.

[genesiser]

I think the people that don't want a damage meter addon are the type of people you absolutely hated doing an instance with the dungeon finder in wow. I'm not talking about the people that are annoying and talk trash, I'm talking about the people that were in t12 and in better gear than you, but end up doing 8k dps while you are doing 25k in lesser gear. Without a damage meter they can't be called out on their poor play. With one, they know someone will get aggravated by their poor performance and say something.

 

It's only a matter of time until they can no longer hide behind the anonymousness that the lack of a damage meter brings to the game.

[Styreta]

I just think itd add a bit of fun and competition to the game while you do the same content over and over...

[Monkar]

Horror stories about misused damage meters are greatly overblown. Regardless of the MMO one is going to encounter bads who don't understand their role. Me wanting to fine tune my performance will no have an impact upon your immersion within the game. As it stands being melee already brings a stigma, at least let me set myself from the pack by performing my role properly.