Why Is There Even Bolstering...

[Deltasniper]

I am speaking on level 55 WZ's i understand everything else, but for max level, why is there so much bolstering?

 

I am also saying this as someone who just hit 55 recently and has 2 pieces of pvp gear.

 

 

I would like to see less bolstering just my personal opinion.

[Ren_simp]

I am speaking on level 55 WZ's i understand everything else, but for max level, why is there so much bolstering?

 

I am also saying this as someone who just hit 55 recently and has 2 pieces of pvp gear.

 

 

I would like to see less bolstering just my personal opinion.

 

 

Because this game has an abnormal amount of players that whine

Over gear differences etc it's even starting in the gsf forum over players with

"Better ships" complaining with out even actually trying to succeed.

 

I honestly don't know how this game attracted so many

[MidichIorian]

I honestly don't know how this game attracted so many

Probably because it is a Star Wars game and has attracted people who usually don't play games or games with PvP specifically.

Edited December 6, 2013 by MidichIorian

[Nempo]

The goal of GOOD PvP is to take gear out of the equation and make it about who can get in the better position, use their skills properly, and work as a team properly.

 

The BAD PvPers whine that their gear doesn't make them better than others. The raiders whine the loudest about this because they can't be weekend warriors in PvP and just stomp on people.

 

Originally, PvP in this game was so horribly off balance due to gear. When expertise was first put in...I was one of the first people to get a full set on my server. I could steamroll 4 on 1 as a shadow tank and not even bother to use all of my defensive cooldowns. People just didn't stand a chance. You want to go back to that...why? I stopped wearing my expertise gear just so that I'd have proper fights. Steamrolling over people is not fun. Fighting with no risk to yourself is not fun. A coward wants huge advantages beyond experience and knowledge.

 

Bolster is fine, besides...after you get 5 pieces of 55 comm gear you have more expertise than people wearing none. Not a lot...sure...but the gear imbalance begins again. It just isn't so bad that it is a huge problem, a full expertise set only gives you a small advantage that skill can eclipse.

[BuzzingFridge]

The goal of GOOD PvP is to take gear out of the equation and make it about who can get in the better position, use their skills properly, and work as a team properly.

 

The BAD PvPers whine that their gear doesn't make them better than others. The raiders whine the loudest about this because they can't be weekend warriors in PvP and just stomp on people.

 

This.

 

Bolster is one of the best additions to PvP to date. It was horrible at first, but now that it is working as intended it is allowing many more casual PvPers to be competitive at 55. I remember playing as a fresh 50 in my Recruit set. Obviously I am a better player now, but even if I had been at a similar skill level I still would have been smashed (literally, there were smashmonkeys everywhere back then). Fast-forward to today and I am able to top Warzones with my fresh 55 DPS Scoundrel. I don't have the time to gear up over the course of a single week, so the fact that I can still be competitive as a fresh 55 makes the lengthy gearing process immensely more enjoyable.

[SenatorPalpaTANG]

The goal of GOOD PvP is to take gear out of the equation and make it about who can get in the better position, use their skills properly, and work as a team properly.

 

The BAD PvPers whine that their gear doesn't make them better than others. The raiders whine the loudest about this because they can't be weekend warriors in PvP and just stomp on people.

Yes and no. I think a large part of the problem is all end game character progression in this game is gear based. Rewards for doing well in pve = gear, rewards for doing well in pvp = gear. The game fundamentally encourages that mindset, so it's only natural for people to expect a certain level of advancement as they gear up. IE "I worked hard for X, I expect to have an advantage over someone who hasn't."

 

Granted that mentality is a bit at odds with "e-sports" where you want the playing field as level as possible. Bioware's been pretty indecisive on what exactly they want their end game pvp to be since the game launched though. Open World PvP? Illum's been dead for well over a year now. 8v8 WZs, no longer ranked. Arenas?

 

Bolster has been a bit of a mess since it was introduced to the end game bracket, and people still find ways to cheat the system. I'd be fine with seeing it go as well (personally I'd rather see expertise go completely, but that's another topic).

[MidichIorian]

Yes and no. I think a large part of the problem is all end game character progression in this game is gear based. Rewards for doing well in pve = gear, rewards for doing well in pvp = gear. The game fundamentally encourages that mindset, so it's only natural for people to expect a certain level of advancement as they gear up. IE "I worked hard for X, I expect to have an advantage over someone who hasn't."

 

Granted that mentality is a bit at odds with "e-sports" where you want the playing field as level as possible. Bioware's been pretty indecisive on what exactly they want their end game pvp to be since the game launched though. Open World PvP? Illum's been dead for well over a year now. 8v8 WZs, no longer ranked. Arenas?

 

Bolster has been a bit of a mess since it was introduced to the end game bracket, and people still find ways to cheat the system. I'd be fine with seeing it go as well (personally I'd rather see expertise go completely, but that's another topic).

This. It's currently the only incentive we have (and let's be honest, there's not much variation in PvP so it needs some form of incentive) and it's rendered moot by bolster. I'm not against some bolster but when someone in level 3 greens has better stats than someone in un-auged Conq it's simply too much.

[sithBracer]

Yes and no. I think a large part of the problem is all end game character progression in this game is gear based. Rewards for doing well in pve = gear, rewards for doing well in pvp = gear. The game fundamentally encourages that mindset, so it's only natural for people to expect a certain level of advancement as they gear up. IE "I worked hard for X, I expect to have an advantage over someone who hasn't."

 

translation: I suck so please give me an advantage over everyone else, but I can't admit it so I'm going to use some BS "progression" excuse to cover up my true intentions.

 

The only "progression" you need to think about in PvP is getting better at your skills, learning each classes strengths and weaknesses more, becoming better at working with your team, and when your team eventually leaves, learn to play with a new team and new characters.

 

You have PvE gear progression acting as a wall between certain events because bioware wants you to grind out properly and make them money. But in PvE each step in the grind is winnable with the gear that they have. Imagine if the boss in Korriban was a level 55 with 2M hp, while you are still a level 10. Even if they give you a small reward for trying, no one will want to continuously lose until they slowly lose their way into a 55 where they stand a chance. In PvP there is no such wall when you hit 55. You play with the same people who have been there longer than you and are fully geared. From a common sense point of view and from a business point of view it would be stupid to give people such a severe advantage just because they started a few weeks before others. It turns away new PvPers who quickly get bored of being stomped not because of a skill gap, but because of an unfair gear gap-something that no matter how much skill they have, they cannot overcome.

 

Bolster is the best thing that happened to PvP. It lets me level new characters and not have to be a useless burden to my team for 2-3 weeks. It still has many glitches, but I will take it over what was in the past any day.

 

Bolster has been a bit of a mess since it was introduced to the end game bracket, and people still find ways to cheat the system. I'd be fine with seeing it go as well (personally I'd rather see expertise go completely, but that's another topic).

 

If expertise goes then PvPers will be dominated by raiders in 78s. And if they make PvP gear similar to 78s, no one will raid since it is easier and faster to get the gear from PvP-and if no one raids, that will be pretty much it for the game.

[Raansu]

This.

 

Bolster is one of the best additions to PvP to date. It was horrible at first, but now that it is working as intended it is allowing many more casual PvPers to be competitive at 55. I remember playing as a fresh 50 in my Recruit set. Obviously I am a better player now, but even if I had been at a similar skill level I still would have been smashed (literally, there were smashmonkeys everywhere back then). Fast-forward to today and I am able to top Warzones with my fresh 55 DPS Scoundrel. I don't have the time to gear up over the course of a single week, so the fact that I can still be competitive as a fresh 55 makes the lengthy gearing process immensely more enjoyable.

 

Bolster is one of the worst features added into this game. People are exploiting it and using pve gear to not only get max expertise but it gives higher stat returns than the top tier pvp gear. Bolster in lowbies is whatever, but in 55 (ESPECIALLY in ranked) bolster needs to be fixed. Pve gear should NEVER be BiS for pvp and it sure as hell should not bolster to max expertise if you have even a single piece of pve gear equipped....this **** has to stop. Either they need to fix it or remove it...preferably remove the damn thing.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Raansu

[SenatorPalpaTANG]

translation: I suck so please give me an advantage over everyone else, but I can't admit it so I'm going to use some BS "progression" excuse to cover up my true intentions.

Rofl, lets tone that nerd rage down a notch. I actually didn't express an opinion on progression one way or another, but it's indisputable that gear has always been the primary "carrot" of this game.

 

The only "progression" you need to think about in PvP is getting better at your skills, learning each classes strengths and weaknesses more, becoming better at working with your team, and when your team eventually leaves, learn to play with a new team and new characters.

That really depends on the game. In something like GW2, that's true. Here it's not so simple. After all, if that were the case, we'd never see new tiers of pvp gear. We'd never have to grind for anything and everyone would have the same equipment/augments upon reaching max level.

 

Character progression is at the heart of all MMOs, and this one chose to use gear to that end. With that in mind, it's only logical for people to expect visible returns on their time investment.

 

If expertise goes then PvPers will be dominated by raiders in 78s. And if they make PvP gear similar to 78s, no one will raid since it is easier and faster to get the gear from PvP-and if no one raids, that will be pretty much it for the game.

Not necessarily. But I could go on for days about ways to handle pvp without needing a fluff stat like expertise gating the community. Ultimately the reason stats like expertise/resilience etc are so popular with game devs is because they're good for business, not for the players.

 

As I said though, that's not really relevant to this thread.

[Cordorian]

If you are remotely interested in pvp, you can get a full set of conquerer in a week now. afair it was the same with first tier of pvp gear, so you basically had to endure one week of pain to be remotely competitive. What we have now is that there are still some weird green giving you better stats than pvp gear and that even at the top level most people use some pve gear to get the max out of bolster. thinking about all the exploits that we had with bolster system, i think enduring on week of pain, is the better option. I might even go as far as that the weird side effects of bolster deterred quite a few people from pvp, like that you hard grinded pre 2.0 gear actually made you worse in wzs and quite some other things.

[Lundorff]

Some clarification:

 

PvE gear might give you better stats than PvP gear, but using gear above level 65/67 (I forget the exact threshold) will not give you expertise. Conqueror is level 65 and Oboran is 67. As a healer I often investigate my fellow players prior to the game starts, and yes you might be a guardian with +40k health, but you certainly are melting before my eyes.

 

Please get 2018 expertise in which ever way possible.

[cycao]

Why? Because your average player is just stupid. When recruit gear was introduced far to many players either didn't equip it, sold it or stuck with PvE gear. Then a change was made so you got nothing for selling it and players either didn't equip it, bother getting it or stuck with PvE gear. Bolster was something that was 100% needed for this game, the way it was implemented was terrible and poorly executed which was met with bugs and exploits.

 

So that is why there is bolster.

[Tankqull]

the idea is good the implementation is poor, simplyfy it in the lvl55 bracket to a check for exp if no exp is on that item set item stats to a virtual recruit set.

that way the "mighty" pve stats got reduced and the pveler realises he is going to be "downrated" and shout invest into pvp equip.

[sithBracer]

Rofl, lets tone that nerd rage down a notch. I actually didn't express an opinion on progression one way or another, but it's indisputable that gear has always been the primary "carrot" of this game.

 

Not angry at all, just stating a fact. Truth hurts.

 

Character progression is at the heart of all MMOs, and this one chose to use gear to that end. With that in mind, it's only logical for people to expect visible returns on their time investment.

 

As I said before, in order to progress you have to be given feasible tasks to progress with. In PvE you are given doable tasks with each planet. In PvP going up against a fully geared geared person without bolster is just not doable. It is boring, it is bad for players and for business. The only players who like this system are those who want an advantage for doing nothing more than starting early. Make any excuse that you want, but anyone who supports a system that gives one an unfair advantage over another is just a bad player who wants to feel good about himself by beating undergeared people.

 

Not necessarily. But I could go on for days about ways to handle pvp without needing a fluff stat like expertise gating the community. Ultimately the reason stats like expertise/resilience etc are so popular with game devs is because they're good for business, not for the players.

 

Expertise was actually bad for business. It turned a lot of new disadvantaged PvPers away; that's why bolster was added. Expertise was originally made to protect PvE actually. If people were able to get similar gear from PvP instead of PvE, no one would grind for weeks for hm gear when they could just grind PvP for a few days in order to get what they needed. So they made PvP gear too weak to do any real PvE content but added expertise in order to make it the best in PvP.

[sithBracer]

Bolster is one of the worst features added into this game. People are exploiting it and using pve gear to not only get max expertise but it gives higher stat returns than the top tier pvp gear. Bolster in lowbies is whatever, but in 55 (ESPECIALLY in ranked) bolster needs to be fixed. Pve gear should NEVER be BiS for pvp and it sure as hell should not bolster to max expertise if you have even a single piece of pve gear equipped....this **** has to stop. Either they need to fix it or remove it...preferably remove the damn thing.

 

Ok, please tell me this magic combination that gives you better stats than obroan gear. The best combination I used was 61 purple armoring, 66 blue mod and 69 purple enhancements and that did not give me stats as good as conqueror. What magic combination did you use?

[SenatorPalpaTANG]

Not angry at all, just stating a fact. Truth hurts.

The word "fact" doesn't mean what you think it means.

 

As I said before, in order to progress you have to be given feasible tasks to progress with. In PvE you are given doable tasks with each planet. In PvP going up against a fully geared geared person without bolster is just not doable.

If bolster was simply removed without adding any "recruit" gear or the like, that would be true. But no one was making that argument so I'm not sure what you're going on about.

 

Bolster is well intentioned but buggy and exploitable, which is what most take issue with.

 

Expertise was actually bad for business. It turned a lot of new disadvantaged PvPers away; that's why bolster was added.

Expertise, much like Resilience in WoW is just an artificial gate used to effectively double Bioware's end game content. If you want to experience both PvE and PvP at the highest levels you have to grind two sets of gear, and grind even longer to optimize them. It keeps the subs paying and the F2Ps buying passes. It's a hook.

[Vodrin]

The goal of GOOD PvP is to take gear out of the equation and make it about who can get in the better position, use their skills properly, and work as a team properly.

 

The BAD PvPers whine that their gear doesn't make them better than others. The raiders whine the loudest about this because they can't be weekend warriors in PvP and just stomp on people.

 

Originally, PvP in this game was so horribly off balance due to gear. When expertise was first put in...I was one of the first people to get a full set on my server. I could steamroll 4 on 1 as a shadow tank and not even bother to use all of my defensive cooldowns. People just didn't stand a chance. You want to go back to that...why? I stopped wearing my expertise gear just so that I'd have proper fights. Steamrolling over people is not fun. Fighting with no risk to yourself is not fun. A coward wants huge advantages beyond experience and knowledge.

 

Bolster is fine, besides...after you get 5 pieces of 55 comm gear you have more expertise than people wearing none. Not a lot...sure...but the gear imbalance begins again. It just isn't so bad that it is a huge problem, a full expertise set only gives you a small advantage that skill can eclipse.

 

The best PvP games use gear to customize, not maximize stats allowing players to tailor their gear to their build with good synergies increasing the overall power of the build. This is as opposed to most MMO's that have significant power gradients on PvP gear allowing fully geared players with mediocre skill to stomp a skilled player that just reached level cap.

[Krakov]

There should be ZERO PvE gear on a PvP server...just add inherent PvP stats to all gear on PvP servers and call it a day.

 

Low gear get a lower amount, high end gear gets higher amounts, that way players progress upwards in level towards better PvP gear. No gear needs to be removed in this process.

 

So, with that said, bolster can then go bye bye once inherent PvP stats are added to all gear.

 

Would just be so much simpler that way imo...

[Vodrin]

There should be ZERO PvE gear on a PvP server...just add inherent PvP stats to all gear on PvP servers and call it a day.

 

Low gear get a lower amount, high end gear gets higher amounts, that way players progress upwards in level towards better PvP gear. No gear needs to be removed in this process.

 

So, with that said, bolster can then go bye bye once inherent PvP stats are added to all gear.

 

Would just be so much simpler that way imo...

 

In that case why do we need PvP stats on gear at all?

[sithBracer]

The best PvP games use gear to customize, not maximize stats allowing players to tailor their gear to their build with good synergies increasing the overall power of the build. This is as opposed to most MMO's that have significant power gradients on PvP gear allowing fully geared players with mediocre skill to stomp a skilled player that just reached level cap.

 

this.

[Ottoattack]

There are so many reasons. Most significantly (note I do not necessarily agree with the reasoning):

 

1) Even the ground in WZs at lvl 55 so under geared players can still participate on a reasonable.

 

2) It gives the illusion that you do not need to grind gear. People think that the bolster allows them to participate effectively at end game PvP levels, thus participate. It defiantly works better then pre. 2.0, but most PvE heros think there gear is better than it actually is, which theoretically increases participation.

 

3) As gear lvls up, devs wanted to prevent free, or low hanging PvP gear (like recruit II) from being available for PvE players. Back in the day, recruit II was close in stats to columni, which was 2nd tier PvE gear and completely nullified tionese, which was first tier PvE gear. Obroan still trumps basic, but 69 is more the entry lvl for most HM ops right now. Basic can only carry you through SM. Bolster gave BW the ability to remove this tier of gear.

 

4) Prevent PvP players from doing end game PvE in PvP gear. Back in the day fully optimized EWH was probably only second to DG gear in PvE, especially, that most people min/maxed with some end game PvE gear in their PvP gear, due to diminishing returns of expertise. BW shafted PvP gear big time in 2.0. Top PvP gear right now is lvl 67 where top PvE is lvl 78, you can't even do HM entry ops (TFB and SNV) with full Obroan (possible, but you need to be extremely good).

 

5) Adjust damage, damage reduction and healing effectiveness inside WZs more than pre 2.0, without the need to do it through gear stats.

 

6) Lower HP, critic, accuracy, surge, alacrity, shielding, defense and absorption ratings in WZs. The only things gets bolstered in 55 WZs is damage. I think there a very small bolster on the other stats, but is negligible. Lvl 78 gear will give a huge amount of critic per piece compared to lvl 67 gear per piece. Devs believe these stats should be lower in WZs.

[Xanas]

translation: I suck so please give me an advantage over everyone else, but I can't admit it so I'm going to use some BS "progression" excuse to cover up my true intentions.

 

The only "progression" you need to think about in PvP is getting better at your skills, learning each classes strengths and weaknesses more, becoming better at working with your team, and when your team eventually leaves, learn to play with a new team and new characters.

 

You have PvE gear progression acting as a wall between certain events because bioware wants you to grind out properly and make them money. But in PvE each step in the grind is winnable with the gear that they have. Imagine if the boss in Korriban was a level 55 with 2M hp, while you are still a level 10. Even if they give you a small reward for trying, no one will want to continuously lose until they slowly lose their way into a 55 where they stand a chance. In PvP there is no such wall when you hit 55. You play with the same people who have been there longer than you and are fully geared. From a common sense point of view and from a business point of view it would be stupid to give people such a severe advantage just because they started a few weeks before others. It turns away new PvPers who quickly get bored of being stomped not because of a skill gap, but because of an unfair gear gap-something that no matter how much skill they have, they cannot overcome.

 

Bolster is the best thing that happened to PvP. It lets me level new characters and not have to be a useless burden to my team for 2-3 weeks. It still has many glitches, but I will take it over what was in the past any day.

 

 

 

If expertise goes then PvPers will be dominated by raiders in 78s. And if they make PvP gear similar to 78s, no one will raid since it is easier and faster to get the gear from PvP-and if no one raids, that will be pretty much it for the game.

 

You sir are a moron. The following post is just as stupid. No idea why the other guy even bothered with you.

 

Translation: I don't want to work for PvP gear so give it to me.

 

______________

 

The current bolster is a joke. I have blue augments, lvl 40 blues and greens items and I can keep up with 0 difficulty on my jugger... Don't even know why I need to bother like at all to gear. I got around 30k hp...

[sithBracer]

You sir are a moron. The following post is just as stupid. No idea why the other guy even bothered with you.

 

Translation: I don't want to work for PvP gear so give it to me.

 

See, bads will make any excuse in order to hold onto their precious advantage, because they know they suck without it. No one minds doing work, but getting roflstomped just because I don't have a piece of gear is just not fun. There is no way to get ahead, no way to win, no way to do anything except get in the way (especially in HG). If there was a special "no pvp gear" division where you could earn comms, or you could trade in elite comms for wz comms or something similar, I would be happy to put in the time. But going into a wz just to run for 5 seconds and then die and have the entire team send me hate PMs is where I (and most people) draw the line.

 

So I'm sorry that even after playing all this time you suck so badly that you desperately need an advantage, but some people prefer to fight on an semi-even playing field with everyone, and win with skill, teamwork and knowledge of the game.

 

The current bolster is a joke. I have blue augments, lvl 40 blues and greens items and I can keep up with 0 difficulty on my jugger... Don't even know why I need to bother like at all to gear. I got around 30k hp...

 

Wow a whole 30k omg, you are such a god. Can you teach me? What spec are you? what is your attack, bonus attack etc? People in tank spec get 40k on their juggs and have full expertise, no idea what you are bragging about.

[Raansu]

See, bads will make any excuse in order to hold onto their precious advantage, because they know they suck without it. No one minds doing work, but getting roflstomped just because I don't have a piece of gear is just not fun. There is no way to get ahead, no way to win, no way to do anything except get in the way (especially in HG). If there was a special "no pvp gear" division where you could earn comms, or you could trade in elite comms for wz comms or something similar, I would be happy to put in the time. But going into a wz just to run for 5 seconds and then die and have the entire team send me hate PMs is where I (and most people) draw the line.

 

So I'm sorry that even after playing all this time you suck so badly that you desperately need an advantage, but some people prefer to fight on an semi-even playing field with everyone, and win with skill, teamwork and knowledge of the game.

 

So then we should totally get bolster for pve right? I'm pretty much fully pvp geared and do raids like once a month for fun but I can't really do HM, so its totally unfair that I can't just go in and be equal to the raiders that spent time grinding and min/maxing their gear. We should definitely get bolster for pve! /sarcasm

 

Wow a whole 30k omg, you are such a god. Can you teach me? What spec are you? what is your attack, bonus attack etc? People in tank spec get 40k on their juggs and have full expertise, no idea what you are bragging about.

 

Considering that he is probably most likely not playing a tank and the fact that the average health pool in full pvp gear is 30-31k min/maxed I'd say he's bragging about the fact that he just bought a bunch of lowbie level pve gear and is getting bolstered to higher stat returns than full pvp gear...which is asinine.