Pay 2 win crowd taking over

[Atamasama]

This isn't an expansion, it's a cash shop minigame. No wonder Bioware didn't charge us for this, if they had, there'd have been rioting outside their HQ. I'd be more upset about development time being misused if it weren't obvious this thing took about 12 minutes to code, judging by it's poor excuse for a design.

I'm guessing that you don't like it then. That's a shame, a lot of us do.

[Arkerus]

This isn't an expansion, it's a cash shop minigame. No wonder Bioware didn't charge us for this, if they had, there'd have been rioting outside their HQ. I'd be more upset about development time being misused if it weren't obvious this thing took about 12 minutes to code, judging by it's poor excuse for a design.

 

I definitely don't see the cash shop mini game. I haven't spent a single dime so far. The only thing cash gets you is other ships faster or two other ship designs that are middle of the road fighters. By converting other req points to fleet req, you lose the ability to upgrade other ships.

 

Its obvious from your comment that you...

 

Have no idea how development works and how complex this stuff is.

How a business works and how they generate revenue.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Arkerus

[IncoherentVoice]

This isn't an expansion, it's a cash shop minigame. No wonder Bioware didn't charge us for this, if they had, there'd have been rioting outside their HQ. I'd be more upset about development time being misused if it weren't obvious this thing took about 12 minutes to code, judging by it's poor excuse for a design.

 

According to my achievement information I've played 22 games with only 2 losses, both of which were automatic abort losses. I've already completed most of the "get x in a single match" achievements. I also consistently get top damage in my matches, I think with maybe three or four exceptions. I haven't spent a single dime.

 

If you are losing it's not because your enemies have better ships and components. It's because you either don't understand how the game works or you're simply not good at it yet.

[Lord_Of_Sith]

Lets look at the math behind the 'pay-to-win' accusations. I want people to actually understand what is going on, and how it works, rather than blindly saying 'someone else said its pay-to-win so i am emotionally upset about this!'. I will take the most extreme scenario possible, just to see what the worst-case scenario actually potentially is, please realize that this scenario is amazingly unlikely:

 

Fact: Daily gives 750 ship requisition to every ship you own.

Fact: Weekly gives 2500 ship requisition to every ship you own.

Fact: Each ship gets up to 500 bonus requisition per day, by doubling the first 500 requisition you would gain that day.

Fact: If you do the daily and weekly and double bonus requisition every day, you will get 11250 ship requisition per ship per week, in addition to what you earn through normal play.

Assumption: For this analysis, we don't care that cartel market ships are automatically 'mastered' and gain +10% requisition, while normal ships must actually be mastered to get that status. If you think this is pay to win, then you also should worry about subscribers getting 50% more requisition through playing than free-to-play; this is no different than subscribers getting bonus xp or reputation in the ground game.

Assumption: For this analysis, we only care about requisition gain in addition to normal requisition gain. Ex) player A plays for 1 hour, gets 2000 ship requisition on a scout. Player B plays for 1 hour, gets 2000 ship requisition on a gunship, pays to convert it to fleet requisition to spend on a scout. Both players played for 1 hour, both players have 2000 requisition to spend on the scout. Player B simply paid money to arrive at the same result as player A without saving any time. What we care about is 'bonus' requisition that lets a player acquire ship requisition at a rate faster than normal.

 

Player A: Has only the base scout and base strike fighter. Doesn't even have the gunship unlocked.

Player B: Purchased both cartel ships, and has all of the normal ones unlocked, for a total of 7 ships.

 

Player A and Player B each play for one week.

Player A: Gets 7 dailies + weekly + 7 daily double requisition for only a single ship: 11250 ship requisition.

Player B: Gets 7 dailies + weekly + 7 daily double requisition for 7 ships: 11250*7=78750 ship requisition over 7 ships.

 

Player A only played a single ship, and does not convert any ship requisition. He has 11250 ship requisition (from bonuses) on his ship of choice.

Player B converts all ship requisition to fleet requisition for 2700 Cartel Coins, and spends the requisition on his ship of choice. He has 78750 requisition (from bonuses) to spend on his ship of choice.

 

Player B nets 67500 requisition more than Player A to spend on his ship of choice per week. This is a significant amount.

However: to get this drastic of a result, Player A has to consciously play only a single ship ever and never convert. Player B must have all 7 ships unlocked, and must play each one every single day for the max bonus requisition. To do this, I'll assume that it takes ~11 games per day (500 req on a win, 250 on a loss; with double it is 1000 on a win, 500 on a loss. Not exact numbers, but a decent estimate for most players I think; assuming a 50% win rate). Assuming 15 minutes per game (that 15 minutes including queue wait-time inbetween games), this is 2h 45m per day, or 19h 15m per week.

 

A more reasonable/likely scenario for someone abusing the conversion: Still assuming Player A is only willing to play a single ship with no conversion.

Player B now has 5 ships unlocked, but only plays 3 of them daily for the bonus requisition. Player B gets (750*5*7+5*2500+3*7*500 - 11250[req used on ship of choice]) = 38000 bonus req to use on ship of choice. Costs 1520 Cartel Coins, ~1h 15m per day, or 8h 45m per week.

 

The most likely conversion abuse scenario: Player B likes one of the three free ships (lets face it, the people abusing conversion probably like gunships). Player B only plays one ship, but he converts all the daily/weekly from the other 2 ships to fleet to spend on the one ship. Player B gets (750*2*7+2*2500) 15500 bonus req to use on his ship.

Costs 620 Cartel Coins.

 

TLDR:

Worst case scenario: a player with all 7 ships unlocked doing everything in his power to abuse conversion can gain 67500 more requisition on a ship in one week, compared to a player only playing a single ship every day and not converting anything. The player getting more requisition has to spend a minimum of ~20 hours and 2700 Cartel coins per week to get that advantage. Having both played ~20 hours, the total requisition amounts come out to ~41250 for free or ~108750 spending 2700CC with all ships unlocked.

More-Likely Bad Scenario: A player with 5 ships unlocked plays 3 ships per day to the maximum bonus requisition. That player converts all requisition in a week (including daily/weekly) to a fleet req to use on a single ship, and gets 38000 more requisition to use on a specific ship. The player getting more requisition has to spend a minimum of ~9 hours and 1520 Cartel Coins per week to get that advantage. Having both played ~9 hours, the total requisition amounts come out to ~41250 for free, or ~79250 with 5 ships unlocked and 1520CC.

Most likely scenario: A player plays only a single ship of his three unlocked. He converts all of his daily/weekly requisition on the other two ships. Compare this to someone only playing a single ship with no conversion. The player converting gets a bonus 15500 requisition per week, at the cost of 620 Cartel Coins per week. If each player played for 20 hours, the totals come out to ~41250 for free or 56750 spending 620CC.

 

TLDR was TLDR:

It is technically possible in an obscene and unlikely scenario for someone to heavily abuse the conversions and come out with 108k extra requisition for a ship in a week, with a hefty cost (both CC and time). However, it is likely that players won't earn more than ~15500 requisition per week on ships they dont want to play and are willing to convert. If two players each play for 20 hours per week on a single fighter, one of them can get ~37% more requisition than the other for 620CC/week. The higher the playtime, the lower the % becomes (40 hours a week it is ~21% more, 70 hours a week it is ~13% more). Also, the better the player (and the higher the base requisition gain), the lower the % becomes. With my personal average for requisition/game, over 40 hours a converter would gain ~12% more requisition than me, for 620CC/week.

[Bachannal]

As someone who actually wasted money buying a new ship....trust me, it's no advantage. You can get the exact same results with the stock ships and normal grinding. The upgrades, if anything, are not spectacular (with maybe the exception of the retro thrusters, which are great for missile evasion). They are minimal upgrades.

 

What counts...and has been said over and over again, is SKILL. Keep playing. Learn the moves. Learn the moves to counter other players moves. Learn the way your ships handle.

 

I've said it a billion times already in these forums...I SUCK...SUCK SUCK SUCK at flight games, and I can do ok in this one. Just takes some practice. If you find yourself ready to toss your PC out the window mid-game...log out,m take a breath, smoke a bowl, drink a beer....whatever, just chill out and come back and play again later. It helps. Trust me...I was ready to rage quit my 1st night repeatedly, lol. Pretty sure most of us had problems right out of the gate.

[ShadowsNIte]

Only the third day into SF and I'm seeing players with well over 10000 purple req, you can also use CC to convert ship req into purple req. Totally unfair and I thought we were told CC would not be allowed to purchase player skills, we were lied to? Is this only a temporary deal?

 

How can you see how many reqs another person has and how much of it was converted over from CCs? Since you are so vocal about this, you must have some proof somewhere? Right?

[Philmors]

Only the third day into SF and I'm seeing players with well over 10000 purple req, you can also use CC to convert ship req into purple req. Totally unfair and I thought we were told CC would not be allowed to purchase player skills, we were lied to? Is this only a temporary deal?

You are an idiot. All you can do is convert ship req. into fleet req. You can't buy it like you think. The people with 10000 Fleet Req. have played for it and have converted it. I've earned 10000 fleet req. and unlocked the scout ship and strike ship I could buy with that fleet req. I did it by playing several hours each day since it came out and converted the ship req. into fleet req. when I needed.

 

Also, you need to learn how to play it. That's how people dominate others in it. I was rubbish when this went out but after playing it a lot, I got better and now compete with most people in it fairly well.

 

How can you see how many reqs another person has and how much of it was converted over from CCs? Since you are so vocal about this, you must have some proof somewhere? Right?

That's what I'm wondering as well because there is no way to find out how many fleet reqs someone has unless they told him like what I did. I myself put the work into getting those reqs so it's not like I'm buying fleet reqs with my carel coins.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Philmors

[Atamasama]

How can you see how many reqs another person has and how much of it was converted over from CCs? Since you are so vocal about this, you must have some proof somewhere? Right?

It's simple... They can't. They're coming up with hypothetical situations to present as fact to support their assertions. Which is one reason why those assertions can't really be defended, merely repeated.

[FrogSkin]

STOP THINKING F2P MEANS FREE. It DOESN'T. F2P = extended trial. If you like it, pay for it, if you don't then quit. I don't know where you were taught that you deserve to have things handed to you for free, but whoever said it lied.

 

Quote of the year for SWTOR.

[TheOne]

You are an idiot. All you can do is convert ship req. into fleet req. You can't buy it like you think. The people with 10000 Fleet Req. have played for it and have converted it. I've earned 10000 fleet req. and unlocked the scout ship and strike ship I could buy with that fleet req. I did it by playing several hours each day since it came out and converted the ship req. into fleet req. when I needed.

 

Also, you need to learn how to play it. That's how people dominate others in it. I was rubbish when this went out but after playing it a lot, I got better and now compete with most people in it fairly well.

 

 

That's what I'm wondering as well because there is no way to find out how many fleet reqs someone has unless they told him like what I did. I myself put the work into getting those reqs so it's not like I'm buying fleet reqs with my carel coins.

 

Watch your tone sir, no need for hurling insults. And yes I play the game just fine and have several achievements(wingman)(10kills a match)(40k dps)(warlord) ect. What I'm not ok with is people converting massive amounts of ship req into fleet req via the CC. The reason I know this is because fellow guildies and friends of mine are doing it, and I've had a few discussions with my fellow players about this issue. Now If your done with the personal attacks , glad we were able to have this dialog.....

Edited December 6, 2013 by TheOne

[TheOne]

How can you see how many reqs another person has and how much of it was converted over from CCs? Since you are so vocal about this, you must have some proof somewhere? Right?

 

Don't try to goad me , only makes you look bad ....

Edited December 6, 2013 by TheOne

[TheOne]

Ya, the light bulb finally went on. It ain't the years ... it's the miles.

 

Looks like you need a complete over- haul bud>

 

and a new lamp

[TheOne]

I fixed the most noticeable errors for you, you may want to look over the correct answers and update any other posts you made with the incorrect information.

 

 

 

Incomplete: Both Ship Req and Fleet Req can be used to upgrade a ship. Ship Req can only be spent for that Ship (which is why it's called 'Ship Req'), and Fleet Req can be spent on any ship in your Fleet (hence the name 'Fleet Req'). In fact, unless you turn on a warning preference, GS won't even tell you that you've run out of Ship Req and are now spending Fleet Req.

 

 

Incorrect: The correct answer is 'All'

 

 

Incorrect. The correct answer is "No, Fleet Upgrades can also be used to purchase upgrades if you do not have enough Ship Req."

 

 

While you cannot directly purchase upgrades for CC in the Cartel Market, you can convert Ship Req to Fleet Req using CC. In a post near this one I calculated that one can easily acquire 6814 Fleet Req / day just playing 2 games a day and buying a lot of CC. You won't be able to gear up your other ships (or at least not very well), but you can upgrade any one ship very fast.

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain this using your math. You and iwipe , a few other nice people here seem to understand just fine.......

[TheOne]

It's simple... They can't. They're coming up with hypothetical situations to present as fact to support their assertions. Which is one reason why those assertions can't really be defended, merely repeated.

 

What? Just read the other posts, what are you not understanding here?

[cashogy_reborn]

People crying about this being p2w already... lol

 

The req you convert you earned. Its not like you are getting extra req somehow; you had to spend time playing in order to accumulate that much. Its up to each player to decide if they want to consolidate all of their req into 1 single ship (thus upgrade their chosen role at a much faster rate), or keep it spread out and play all of their ships.

 

Personally, I have been using my CC stipend to convert the req I get from the GSF daily item, and I have been using all req to upgrade the blackbolt scout fighter. Ive only played that ship (Ive yet to touch my strike fighter and gunship)

 

This is not p2w however; all of that req was earned. P2W would be if someone could just straight up pay CC for upgrades/components. But you cannot do that. If you have not earned ship req, you cannot convert it to fleet req.

Edited December 6, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[TheOne]

Again, when the matchmaking system is working properly not even this should be happening. Those players with stronger ships won't be running into you in battles because they'll be matched with others with ships just as strong.

 

Now, if you're getting creamed by people who are more skilled than you, then you just need practice to get better.

 

Oh yeah the match making system is just terrific right????

Same faction fighting on republic last night, it was working just spectacularly!!!!

Edited December 6, 2013 by TheOne

[TheOne]

People crying about this being p2w already... lol

 

The req you convert you earned. Its not like you are getting extra req somehow; you had to spend time playing in order to accumulate that much. Its up to each player to decide if they want to consolidate all of their req into 1 single ship (thus upgrade their chosen role at a much faster rate), or keep it spread out and play all of their ships.

 

Personally, I have been using my CC stipend to convert the req I get from the GSF daily item, and I have been using all req to upgrade the blackbolt scout fighter. Ive only played that ship (Ive yet to touch my strike fighter and gunship)

 

This is not p2w however; all of that req was earned. P2W would be if someone could just straight up pay CC for upgrades/components. But you cannot do that. If you have not earned ship req, you cannot convert it to fleet req.

 

Earning by buying fleet transfers with CC? What a joke

[eartharioch]

People crying about this being p2w already... lol

 

The req you convert you earned. Its not like you are getting extra req somehow; you had to spend time playing in order to accumulate that much. Its up to each player to decide if they want to consolidate all of their req into 1 single ship (thus upgrade their chosen role at a much faster rate), or keep it spread out and play all of their ships.

 

Personally, I have been using my CC stipend to convert the req I get from the GSF daily item, and I have been using all req to upgrade the blackbolt scout fighter. Ive only played that ship (Ive yet to touch my strike fighter and gunship)

 

This is not p2w however; all of that req was earned. P2W would be if someone could just straight up pay CC for upgrades/components. But you cannot do that. If you have not earned ship req, you cannot convert it to fleet req.

 

The problem is the Daily (and Weekly). They pay out Ship Req to all of your ships, regardless of whether or not you play them (and you aren't). Most of us started out with three ships, so currently we all get the same amount of Fleet Req, right?

 

No.

 

Just by purchasing four vanity ships (which can be done for about $52.50), you will now get 3000 more Ship Req per Daily, which you can convert to Fleet Req (for about $1 /day).

 

Think about it -- with no extra in-game effort, a one-time investment of $52.50, and paying $1/day, you get 3000 more Fleet Req, which you can use to purchase upgrades for any ship.

 

Now, we don't know to what extent people are doing this, but this demonstrates that people *can* buy upgrades for real-life money and no additional in-game effort.

 

If there was only one bracket (i.e., all players in the same pool), this would clearly be play-to-win.

 

HOWEVER, BW has said that GS has a matchmaking system that should pit similarly situated players together. Unfortunately, we have no details about that system, and GS hasn't been out long enough yet to get a good picture as to how balanced the system actually is.

Edited December 6, 2013 by eartharioch

[Wainamoinen]

Yes but instead of costing 5000 ship req for tier 3 skill, you can use purple req and cost goes down, wwwaaayyyy down.

 

This is absolutely wrong.

 

It costs the same amount, whether in ship reqs or fleet reqs, to buy anything.

 

You can convert ship reqs to fleet reqs - but you have to earn the ship reqs by fighting.

 

Fleet reqs do not buy upgrades cheaper than ship reqs.

 

You can deck out a ship in one day using CC, I've seen it first hand, and it's cheating and down right despicable.

Impossible. You wouldn't be able to earn enough ship reqs to convert. You can only convert 1-to-1.

 

I've been playing non stop for 3 days , two ships , and barely have 4000 ship req. But people with CC can deck out a ship in a day? Bullcrap, your the troll and get outta my thread.

If you've only earnt 4000 ship reqs, you haven't been playing non-stop for three days. I get around 700 per match. Also, did you not buy any first-step upgrades for 1k?

 

Converting ship reqs to fleet reqs allows you to buy upgrades on a ship other than the one you earnt them on - but you still need to earn those ship reqs.

 

TL;DR: Your complaint is invalid because you're mistaken in thinking that fleet reqs buy upgrades faster than ship reqs. I am not sure why you haven't realised this yet.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[Hyrune]

The main issue is the way Dailes and Weeklies work.

IMO the easy fix would to give Fleet Reqs instead.

 

Anyway, sooner or later some players will use min/maxed ships again brand new ones.

[AlrikFassbauer]

The Daily Missions from the PvP terminal also give out quite a lot of Fleet Requisition.

 

So, someone who has played literally from day 1 on (Early Access) might indeed have accumulated quite a bit ...

 

 

Just by purchasing four vanity ships (which can be done for about $52.50), you will now get 3000 more Ship Req per Daily, which you can convert to Fleet Req (for about $1 /day).

 

Think about it -- with no extra in-game effort, a one-time investment of $52.50, and paying $1/day, you get 3000 more Fleet Req, which you can use to purchase upgrades for any ship.

 

Now, we don't know to what extent people are doing this, but this demonstrates that people *can* buy upgrades for real-life money and no additional in-game effort.

 

Also, massively using CC to get Fleet Requisition also supports my "will to win -> exploit everything" theory ...

Edited December 6, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[Hassat-Hunter]

And here I was thinking this thread got too logic, too much good discussion going on, no more fun. Glad the OP is back though.

 

And while yes, buying the CC ship also gives more ship comms to convert, I wouldn't really speak of p2w. And definitely not the totally plucked out of the air numbers of the OP.

[Kelremar]

It's obviously not Pay2Win. You don't need to pay anything to win. But you can get a huge advantage by spending a lot of CC, especially when BioWare adds new roles like the Bomber in February. By spending CC it will be easy to fully upgrade a new ship even before playing it. It think that shouldn't be possible.

 

Suggestion:

• Add a weekly "fleet requisition used for upgrades"-cap so you cannot use more than 5000 or 10000 a week.
  

 

I also hate the idea that at one point, when my favourite ship is fully upgraded, i will get more ship requisition but at the same time can't spend it anymore if I'm not willing to spend CC. I don't wanna be put in a situation like that as a subscriber.

 

Suggestion:

• Add a ship requisition to fleet requisition conversion at a conversion rate of 3:1 or worse.
  

Edited December 6, 2013 by Kelremar

[rnmedic]

P2W is P2W no matter how small the advantage. You should not be able to use money to upgrade gear or stats. The fact that you have to use CC to transfer ship req to fleet req's and in turn upgrade to better ships is P2W. Is there another way that does not require money to convert that I am missing. If not, then its P2W. I guess BW did not learn their lesson for the last time they tried this the PVE ship armoring and player gear. This is just start. What next, you can buy componets with CC and other upgrades. BW needs to drop the CC req coversion. Edited December 6, 2013 by rnmedic

[rnmedic]

All the noobs complaining about P2W, read this line.

 

/thread

 

not yet, but its prob coming

Edited December 6, 2013 by rnmedic