Ren_simp Posted December 5, 2013 Author Share Posted December 5, 2013 (edited) Yes I've tested crit on my gear might augs the lot Power surge still works best as far as stats are concerned But that's not my issue with this spec.. Vigilance is just lacking reliable burst like an above poster mentioned its because the spec has no Surge modifiers or that the bulk of its damage is mitigated by armour. I can only draw from my experience in wow pvp played a warrior and death knight fro years and have seen many changes regarding melee pvp ,yes I know this isn't wow but some things are universal like the basis for good melee pvp From this I know the key ingredients for successful melee pvp which are gap closers and slows on short cool downs to stay on target Coupled with reliable on demand burst damage which is why focus is so successful because it has these key ingredients. All vigilance needed was to buff overhead strike damage so that its reliable burst every 9 seconds because currently Vigilance damage in pvp can be easily managed by healers totally negated by guard It just poses no threat at all For a single target melee. Edited December 5, 2013 by Ren_simp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraiven Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Then there's your issue. You need crit. The only melee that should be pure power/surge is rage/focus. But even they can benefit from a moderate amount of crit rating. Veng needs around 22-24% crit to be effective. If you're pure power no wonder you're hitting like a noodle. Invest in a few crit mods or enhancements to get around that range, then put the rest in power/surge. Same for the augs, no might. If you still have issues after that then I'd say its a l2p problem, but you say you've been running the spec for a while so I'll take your word for it. Ran in to another Guardian last night who only had 12% Crit. I looked at his gear and he had no critt in his gear at all...he even removed the mods with Crit in them and replaced them with power. I was sitting pretty at 27% Crit. I was scratching my head and trying to figure out for the life of me why he did that....before I had a chance to look at his damage in the end of the match, I thought he might know something I didn't. Alas, I think I will stick with my gear set-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 (edited) Ran in to another Guardian last night who only had 12% Crit. I looked at his gear and he had no critt in his gear at all...he even removed the mods with Crit in them and replaced them with power. I was sitting pretty at 27% Crit. I was scratching my head and trying to figure out for the life of me why he did that....before I had a chance to look at his damage in the end of the match, I thought he might know something I didn't. Alas, I think I will stick with my gear set-up. 27% crit wow how much crit rating is that. You're gimping yourself. Edited December 6, 2013 by JediMasterSLC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraiven Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 (edited) 27% crit wow how much crit rating is that. You're gimping yourself. Was a mistake, it's 25% crit chance. It's at the soft cap before DRs start hitting it hard...I thought that number was 27%, but it's not, it's 25% which is right where it should be. Edited December 6, 2013 by Wraiven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Was a mistake, it's 25% crit chance. It's at the soft cap before DRs start hitting it hard...I thought that number was 27%, but it's not, it's 25% which is right where it should be. Crit rating sucks right now, even without any DR. 0 crit rating is "where it should be". How much do you have? Crit rating, not %. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olcraft Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Since Vengeance/Vigilance needs more surge would it be a mistake to tie that into the new root ability should it ever be added? If so where should it go in so we don't have more options to spend points but still make sense? Most likely Burning Purpose and Burning Blades would have to be removed to accommodate such changes. Adding any more new talents would be incredibly stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenatorPalpaTANG Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Most likely Burning Purpose and Burning Blades would have to be removed to accommodate such changes. Adding any more new talents would be incredibly stupid. I'd love to see Burning Blades and Burning Purpose combined into one talent. Burning Blade's damage is so laughably bad it wouldn't be worth the points on its own if we didn't need it for Keening procs. They should also get rid of the "Vigilance" talent and make the cooldown on Overhead Slash/Plasma Brand 9/12s by default. That talent is pure filler and is positioned a tier before you can even spec one of the skills it modifies... and yet it's required to keep the spec from falling on its face. That would instantly shave off 5 talent points from the current tree and leave plenty of room for something new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraiven Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Crit rating sucks right now, even without any DR. 0 crit rating is "where it should be". How much do you have? Crit rating, not %. 415 Crit rating. So wait, I shouldn't be using any at all? How in the hell are people criting without any crit percentages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraiven Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Never mind, guild leader is explaining it to me now. I knew it was nerfed, but I didn't think people were doing away with it all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 (edited) 415 Crit rating. So wait, I shouldn't be using any at all? How in the hell are people criting without any crit percentages? Yeah that's wayyyyyy too high. If you get it below 100 I wouldn't worry about it too much after that. Most of your crit chance comes from 5% base + main stat + smug/op buff + legacy buff........ Edited December 6, 2013 by JediMasterSLC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraiven Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Yeah that's wayyyyyy too high. Most of your crit chance comes from 5% base + main stat + smug/op buff + legacy buff........ Dude, you have no idea how pissed I am right now about this. I knew there was a nerf to crit, but I didn't know that crit was completely null. That's what I get for being in a PvE guild for so long. Just now joined a PvP guild, so I'm a bit behind on the stat builds. So yup...never mind everything I said...I'm obviously stuck in pre 1.4 ...time to go get educated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helig Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 (edited) Never mind, guild leader is explaining it to me now. I knew it was nerfed, but I didn't think people were doing away with it all together. Having a minimal crit rating (below 100) won't hurt you in PvP. Just don't overdo it. Dude, you have no idea how pissed I am right now about this. I knew there was a nerf to crit, but I didn't know that crit was completely null. That's what I get for being in a PvE guild for so long. Just now joined a PvP guild, so I'm a bit behind on the stat builds. So yup...never mind everything I said...I'm obviously stuck in pre 1.4 ...time to go get educated. Well, BW did say that they were looking at crit DRs. No ETA though. Edited December 6, 2013 by Helig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 (edited) It's not that the DR is bad, it's that its scaling ratio is literally just too low. Suffering from excessive DR would mean that crit rating is only useful up to a low point. The fact is that for most specs, it's not useful at any point. That being said, you are not gimping yourself if you have <100 crit, and even <200 for a few specs. Healers can get a little more than that even, since they don't scale well with power. Edited December 6, 2013 by JediMasterSLC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
znihilist Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Yes I've seen high crits when the stars align once a wz It's not good enough This spec needs reliable burst from instant attacks like overhead slash Can we stop morphing every other spec in this game into a burst spec ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olcraft Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Can we stop morphing every other spec in this game into a burst spec ? This spec shouldn't have been a dot spec in the first place. It's Bioware's stupidity that made it so. Think about it everyone! Which hurts more? Being beaten with a stick wielded with two hands or just one hand? TBH Vigilance/Vengeance spec must be burstier than combat/carnage spec. But it isn't! combat/carnage spec has better burst than us. Even in Star Wars Episode III ROTS, you all saw how Anakin Skywalker(100% vigilance guardian) defeated all those experienced jedi masters and sith lords. He simply battered away their parries with his brute strength! That's how it should've always been! Do sents/marauders have rights to have more overall dps? Yes! But that doesn't mean we have to be inferior at just about everything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helig Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Can we stop morphing every other spec in this game into a burst spec ? So, what exactly are alternatives for a viable PvP DPS spec design? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron_Samedi Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 *** are some of peeps here talking about crit? Crit is comfy on 25% TOPS. After that it is mittigation. Surge is ~395 (cca 70-75%). Get Accu to 100%+ (mine is 101%, and i cannot recall EVER seeing "reflected", "dodged" etc). Rest is strength (preferably) and power. Now, biggest mistery for me are RELIC. I have that thingy for main stat +625, and i have MATRIX CUBE for strength. Now, I am pondering the best relic combination for Vigilance PVP. Any suggestions on that? Btw, I disagree that Vigilance is BAD as DPS. I run Parsec several times in PvE and PVP. BOTH always made 2000-2500+ average dmg (crits included). Which is FAIR. Not the pro-sentinel numbers, but good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
znihilist Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 So, what exactly are alternatives for a viable PvP DPS spec design? Since we are talking in the hypothetical: Increasing TTK! I contend that in 8v8 this might be tricky, but in 4v4 (ranked) this might actually do the trick. How can you increase TTK and move away from burst ? Well there is more than one way to do this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helig Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 (edited) Since we are talking in the hypothetical: Increasing TTK! I contend that in 8v8 this might be tricky, but in 4v4 (ranked) this might actually do the trick. How can you increase TTK and move away from burst ? Well there is more than one way to do this! Increasing TTK (time to kill) means killing slower/dying slower/making your friends die slower. That's Defense spec. I assume you meant overtime DPS. Impossible without butchering PvE balance, or gimping the spec even more for PvP. If it stays balanced for PvE, it'll be a low burst, high contact time spec - even worse than it is now. If it's a high-DPS, but low burst spec balanced for PvP, Marauders will cry that Juggernauts parse higher than them in raids. Edited December 6, 2013 by Helig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
znihilist Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Increasing TTK (time to kill) means killing slower/dying slower/making your friends die slower. That's Defense spec. I assume you meant overtime DPS. Impossible without butchering PvE balance, or gimping the spec even more for PvP. If it stays balanced for PvE, it'll be a low burst, high contact time spec - even worse than it is now. If it's a high-DPS, but low burst spec balanced for PvP, Marauders will cry that Juggernauts parse higher than them in raids. You can play with expertise bonus to achieve that, or total HP in WZs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helig Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 You can play with expertise bonus to achieve that, or total HP in WZs Surely you realize that this would require to rebalance the entire class system? I think I'd rather have PvP DPS balanced around burst and PvE DPS being balanced around consistent DPS to avoid madness and chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanas Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 I played a big with Vengeance, still am in this spec. Is so much more fun then Rage but burst is a serious problem. I usually just get home from work and do my dailies in unranked. If I end up in an arena the decreased burst from Rage is a big deficit in my book. If this spec really, really needs something is more burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belpheghor Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Vigilance is one of the best single target DPS specs in game, need I elaborate any further? Only thing I can imagine is that you've loaded your gear with accuracy, or stack strength in which you would hit like a wet noodle. That isn't the fault of the spec however. SO what stats are best to stack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 *** are some of peeps here talking about crit? Crit is comfy on 25% TOPS. After that it is mittigation. Surge is ~395 (cca 70-75%). Get Accu to 100%+ (mine is 101%, and i cannot recall EVER seeing "reflected", "dodged" etc). Rest is strength (preferably) and power. Now, biggest mistery for me are RELIC. I have that thingy for main stat +625, and i have MATRIX CUBE for strength. Now, I am pondering the best relic combination for Vigilance PVP. Any suggestions on that? Btw, I disagree that Vigilance is BAD as DPS. I run Parsec several times in PvE and PVP. BOTH always made 2000-2500+ average dmg (crits included). Which is FAIR. Not the pro-sentinel numbers, but good. Lol pve. 95% accuracy for pvp folks. Power and main stat proc relics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraiven Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 SO what stats are best to stack? Power...power...power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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