PowerTech Changes....or lack of!

[Consular_Bob]

I see many threads about new class representatives etc and many more from unhappy PT players with regards to our dps.

 

I play a PT Pyro and love playing the class. However, I have been forced to swap to my Operative dps or Sniper in Raids as the PT Pyro just does not cut it since the last nerf! Why has the developers constantly ignored our class?????

 

I now see a new thread in the Operative Class section about how they are going to give some "Love" to the Operative DPs.............are they serious? Operative DPS pull some of the best damage in game if played correctly. They far out dps the PT by a large way. And what happens......the Devs give them a buff! This is a joke!

 

And what is happening with our class representative? My opinion on this is that he has to have a PVE perspective aswell as PVP.

 

Let us all hope the devs give the PT some "Love" also soon!

[DAMossimo]

The problem with this class is we have:

 

• A Tank Tree (Shield Tech)
  
• A PvP Burst DPS Tree (Pyrotech)
  
• And...ANOTHER PvP Burst DPS Tree (Advanced Prototype)
  

 

Where's the sustained PvE DPS? Not there anymore since they tuned both DPS trees for PvP.

 

I think the choice to give Powertechs more "survivability" and less sustained DPS across the board in an attempt to balance this class for arenas is what screwed us over. Couple this with the fact that many PvE raiders have shunned this class since 2.0 so their voices aren't heard anymore and you have...well we have what we have today.

 

Some ideas to change this without impacting PvP:

 

• Allow grapple to pull you to raid opponents that can't be pulled in to you (think Blizz) - also remove threat generation from this power when used this way (this change alone might make all the difference)
  
• Lower the initial damage of IM & TD and increase thier DOT (by a significant amount) - also increase the range of these powers back to 30m
  
• Switch around between trees: Steely Resolve & Intergated Cardio Package, Hyper Fuel & Sweltering heat (make Gyroscopic Alignment Jets a single point skill), Swap Infrared Sensors & Advanced Tools
  

 

As others have pointed out, we aren't getting anything changed for 2.5, and they seem unwilling to even discuss changing Powertechs in 2.6 thus far. I too have mained a Powertech since launch, but am forced to mothball him due to low raid dps performance.

 

Part of it is all the repositioning in the new ops; except for Nefra, most of the fights require running from one side of the room to the other and focus dpsing. This is just killer for a Powertech. All you can do is rapid shots and hope to pop off a single railshot while you lumber across the area while every other class uses their gap closer and begin shredding their target.

 

It's sad - I'm 1/2way into 78's and still feel as though I'm being carried by my raid team in these new ops, unable to come close to the dps output of a sniper, operative, or marauder in similar or lesser gear. It's really quite funny being the slowest one to engage distanced focus targets when you have a huge jetpack strapped to your back. Torparse has no sense of humor though, and will coldly report your avarage dps up to a full 1k lower than those who can engage quicker.

[OlosBC]

Originally read bit about nefra wrong. Anyway, my opinions on our advantages for each fight:

 

Draxus: charge would be nice, but the spawns are scripted, HO is plenty sufficient to get there. And we have better aoe (even in full pyro) than any other melee but smash. Also, explosive dart while running to shield.

 

Grobthok: lol hydraulic overrides. Plus good aoe (my raid group just kites adds to under the boss). 10m range on 90% of pyro rotation makes keeping up DPS easy.

 

Corruptor zero: again, good aoe. Hydraulic overrides for moving out of circles.

 

Brontes: ranged should be killing fingers that are far away. Clones can be annoying to get to, but spaced out enough to get HO going one way at least. Mara cooldowns are kinda op for spheres, not much to say about that.

 

Bestia: good aoe. DPS taunts are awesome in this fight for dragging larva under monsters, and keeping things separate while you burn boss at the end.

 

Tyrans: 10m attacks help a bunch here. Still doing full rotation while dropping simplification and inferno. Charge not needed.

 

Calphayus: movement is spread out enough to have HO up each time. Good aoe. Good burn phase. Taunt if tanks **** up and get inevitability.

 

Raptus. 10m attacks help a ton for continuing to dps during the one with circle and 2 lines. Never felt like I needed a charge on this fight.

 

Council: pyro pt is possibly the absolute best raptus kite tank. Plus aoe and good dots during burn phase.

 

 

I'll definitely concede DPS could be a bit higher, but mechanically, our class has its advantages in practically every fight. You just need to learn how to use them.

Edited October 31, 2013 by OlosBC

[Consular_Bob]

Don't get me wrong, I know how to use my PT in Pyro spec. Have been doing so since 1.2 and still use it. What I am saying is that with regards to dps output, we are very low and the changes made were effectively to make us survive longer. Personally, I prefer the better dps than survivability. I play PVE and Tanks are the ones who need to survive longer not me. I have my shield and aggro dump, tanks do the rest.

 

Shame that my particular class does is not of interest in the bigger picture for the developers where dps is concerned.

[DAMossimo]

Anyway, my opinions on our advantages for each fight:

 

I'll definitely concede DPS could be a bit higher, but mechanically, our class has its advantages in practically every fight. You just need to learn how to use them.

 

Some good tips there, many of which I've figured out, but some I've not.

 

But I hesitate calling them an advantage - what one might call an advantage, another would call a work-around. IMO, HO is a workaround to maximize dps that is still significantly lower than others dish out. Nothing would replace being able to insta-jump to a target.

 

Heck, even in the Nefra fight, where A PT should have the absolute advantage because they don't have to move, I get out-dps'd by the others in my group.

 

I gotta commend your raid group for working with you though; mine doesn't and treats me like any other dps class - they are only interested in raw dps power and don't change tactics to utilize what a PT can bring to a fight. It's probably fair to say that most groups judge you on your torparse numbers, and we are severely lacking there.

[T-Assassin]

Some good tips there, many of which I've figured out, but some I've not.

 

But I hesitate calling them an advantage - what one might call an advantage, another would call a work-around. IMO, HO is a workaround to maximize dps that is still significantly lower than others dish out. Nothing would replace being able to insta-jump to a target.

 

Heck, even in the Nefra fight, where A PT should have the absolute advantage because they don't have to move, I get out-dps'd by the others in my group.

 

I gotta commend your raid group for working with you though; mine doesn't and treats me like any other dps class - they are only interested in raw dps power and don't change tactics to utilize what a PT can bring to a fight. It's probably fair to say that most groups judge you on your torparse numbers, and we are severely lacking there.

 

In a straight up comparison versus other top performing DPS classes (Sniper, Marauder, Merc) PT is definitely not ~5%, or what I would call "competitive".

 

However, if you are a good, competent player that knows the fights, is easy to heal, and does his role with little to no delay, that SHOULD go a long way in an OPs group.

 

However, I am aware that this is usually not how classes are chosen.

 

Why take a PT @ 2500 DPS, with little to no utility that other classes already bring to the OP, when you can load up on 3500 DPS classes?

 

Most would not, or would not even give a competent PT a chance. That's a problem.

[T-Assassin]

Don't get me wrong, I know how to use my PT in Pyro spec. Have been doing so since 1.2 and still use it. What I am saying is that with regards to dps output, we are very low and the changes made were effectively to make us survive longer. Personally, I prefer the better dps than survivability. I play PVE and Tanks are the ones who need to survive longer not me. I have my shield and aggro dump, tanks do the rest.

 

Shame that my particular class does is not of interest in the bigger picture for the developers where dps is concerned.

 

I'm with ya, brotha!

 

The changes to PT/VG Pyro/Assault did nothing to help in PvE. With little to no "utility" in this game, in PvE our survivability is the tanks holding agro, and the healers doing their job.

 

Adrenaline Fueled and Degauss do next to nothing in an OP.

 

[OlosBC]

Some good tips there, many of which I've figured out, but some I've not.

 

But I hesitate calling them an advantage - what one might call an advantage, another would call a work-around. IMO, HO is a workaround to maximize dps that is still significantly lower than others dish out. Nothing would replace being able to insta-jump to a target.

 

Heck, even in the Nefra fight, where A PT should have the absolute advantage because they don't have to move, I get out-dps'd by the others in my group.

 

I gotta commend your raid group for working with you though; mine doesn't and treats me like any other dps class - they are only interested in raw dps power and don't change tactics to utilize what a PT can bring to a fight. It's probably fair to say that most groups judge you on your torparse numbers, and we are severely lacking there.

 

Spec hybrid and dominate numbers on draxus, grobthok, zero, bestia, and calphayus.

 

Maybe they're not all that good or something, but I keep up with our snipers just fine, and I do better on my PT than I do on my similarly geared sniper.

 

If we need anything at all, I think it'd be some real DPS synergy out of the top tier talents. The new TD is nice and the new defenses are nice, but the top couple tiers still don't offer much more DPS than the low talents in AP and shield. TDis by no means a "spec defining" or crucial rotation-changing talent, the way heat blast, sniper volley, sorc aoe heal, force crush, guardian slash, or most other 36 point talents are. Its still just kinda there. You toss it in between rail shots when its up, and it does OK damage, but its rather boring and weak for a top tier talent.

[Keypek]

Why take a PT @ 2500 DPS, with little to no utility that other classes already bring to the OP, when you can load up on 3500 DPS classes?

 

Should be doing at least 3000 dps on a dummy in a 36 AP spec and well over 3000 in a hybrid. 2500 was pre-2.4 pre-75 gear.

 

Yeah we lag behind a little against a sent/mar or gs/sniper but can still put on the heat. The dumb thing, as noted above me in the last post, is that our 36 abilities just kinda lack a pve punch like other classes do. Still "bad" parse wise to go full 36 trees. They keep nerfing the hybrid with each major patch but still is much better. I just hope when they do finally kill hybrid completely they actually fix both 36 specs to be as good.

[DAMossimo]

Should be doing at least 3000 dps on a dummy in a 36 AP spec and well over 3000 in a hybrid. 2500 was pre-2.4 pre-75 gear.

 

Yeah we lag behind a little against a sent/mar or gs/sniper but can still put on the heat. The dumb thing, as noted above me in the last post, is that our 36 abilities just kinda lack a pve punch like other classes do. Still "bad" parse wise to go full 36 trees. They keep nerfing the hybrid with each major patch but still is much better. I just hope when they do finally kill hybrid completely they actually fix both 36 specs to be as good.

 

I can can easily do 3200 dps on the dummy with AP spec (~2850 pyro)...but it just stands there. In actual raid situations, where there's a lot of moving, repositioning, and focus targeting distant adds, the actual performance is hundreds lower - I'd actually say 2500 is a pretty good parse for most fights.

 

Do you by any chance have a link to the new hybrid spec tree and rotation info?

 

I'd definately give it a whirl before I put my PT down.

[DAMossimo]

Spec hybrid and dominate numbers on draxus, grobthok, zero, bestia, and calphayus.

 

Maybe they're not all that good or something, but I keep up with our snipers just fine, and I do better on my PT than I do on my similarly geared sniper.

 

If we need anything at all, I think it'd be some real DPS synergy out of the top tier talents. The new TD is nice and the new defenses are nice, but the top couple tiers still don't offer much more DPS than the low talents in AP and shield. TDis by no means a "spec defining" or crucial rotation-changing talent, the way heat blast, sniper volley, sorc aoe heal, force crush, guardian slash, or most other 36 point talents are. Its still just kinda there. You toss it in between rail shots when its up, and it does OK damage, but its rather boring and weak for a top tier talent.

 

The snipers & mara in my group do 3500+ nearly every raid boss fight. Compared to my average 2300 - 2700. I'm 30% behind them in comparative DPS. God it seems even worse now that I calculated it.

[ellenbec]

Some ideas to change this without impacting PvP:

 

• Allow grapple to pull you to raid opponents that can't be pulled in to you (think Blizz) - also remove threat generation from this power when used this way (this change alone might make all the difference)
  
• Lower the initial damage of IM & TD and increase thier DOT (by a significant amount) - also increase the range of these powers back to 30m
  
• Switch around between trees: Steely Resolve & Intergated Cardio Package, Hyper Fuel & Sweltering heat (make Gyroscopic Alignment Jets a single point skill), Swap Infrared Sensors & Advanced Tools
  

 

Ok, so, just to ask, how would moving Sweltering Heat out of Pyro and into Shield Tech NOT affect Pyro's PvP ability?

 

All of these adjustments that you are suggesting would help Pyro's PvE numbers, but in turn would also adversely affect AP and ST performance in the PvE setting.

 

JUST the ST changes....You are causing ST to spec into both Neural Overload, which has ZERO impact on boss mobs AND No Escape, which also has ZERO impact on boss fights. This also includes ST now having to spec into Sweltering Heat, which as the talent currently stands is completely USELESS to ST since we do not use CGC AT ALL, and Integrated Cardio Package, which for the cost of talent points is not as big of a increase as some make it out to be.

 

Now, using your talent spec that YOU are promoting, ST is also going to be giving up Prototype Burn Enhancers, which is a highly useful talent choice, as well as Puncture. The accuracy increase, as well as the Armor Penetration on Rail Shot assist ST mightily for threat generation.

 

You also want to move a talent that reduces the CD on FT to a tree that rarely uses it and out of the tree that the entire tree is built around? As well, on the topic of AP, the talent changes you are suggesting is going to cost AP 6% of Rail Shot's damage as well not being able to take Rail Loaders.

 

Yes, the talent swapping you are suggesting would allow for Pyro to receive quite the buff in damage, but you would then be nerfing both AP and ST. There are ways to adjust Pyro's damage output without harming the other two trees.

Edited October 31, 2013 by ellenbec

[DAMossimo]

Ok, so, just to ask, how would moving Sweltering Heat out of Pyro and into Shield Tech NOT affect Pyro's PvP ability?

 

All of these adjustments that you are suggesting would help Pyro's PvE numbers, but in turn would also adversely affect AP and ST performance in the PvE setting.

 

The grapple change I suggested would have absolutely no impact in PvP as there are no raid bosses in PvP that it would work on - it would work as it currently does in PvP. Sure, make it so it doesn't work against cover-shielded opponents. Not sure what the problem could possibly be here.

 

Incendiary Missile & Thermal Detonator aren't even achievable skills when specced ST/AP so I don't see a problem there.

 

Steely Resolve & Intergated Cardio Package:

 

Both bottom tier skills making it a non-issue in almost all cases; you could pick and choose either or both whichever spec you go, but the endurance buff logically should be in the tank tree, and the aim buff in one of the dps trees.

 

Hyper Fuel & Sweltering Heat (make Gyroscopic Alignment Jets a single point skill):

 

Sweltering Heat is a tanky-type skill, and has no use in PvE. Both are tier 2 powers making them similarly easy to grab if you felt a need to with any spec.

 

Swap Infrared Sensors & Advanced Tools:

 

OK fine. You might have a point here - I was spitballing. However, Infrared Sensors also have no place being in a PvE spec tree. Maybe just make it something else useful for PvE.

 

Point is, PvPers have 2 skill trees to choose from right now and PvEers have the scraps left over. Balance one tree for PvP, and give us PvEers one viable spec tree is the message here. As a player, I shouldn't even have to give suggestions like this but it's painfully apparent that the developers aren't looking at this stuff and/or don't care. I'm just hoping one of them wanders in here and sees our plight.

[ellenbec]

The grapple change I suggested would have absolutely no impact in PvP as there are no raid bosses in PvP that it would work on - it would work as it currently does in PvP. Sure, make it so it doesn't work against cover-shielded opponents. Not sure what the problem could possibly be here.

 

Incendiary Missile & Thermal Detonator aren't even achievable skills when specced ST/AP so I don't see a problem there.

 

Steely Resolve & Intergated Cardio Package:

 

Both bottom tier skills making it a non-issue in almost all cases; you could pick and choose either or both whichever spec you go, but the endurance buff logically should be in the tank tree, and the aim buff in one of the dps trees.

 

Hyper Fuel & Sweltering Heat (make Gyroscopic Alignment Jets a single point skill):

 

Sweltering Heat is a tanky-type skill, and has no use in PvE. Both are tier 2 powers making them similarly easy to grab if you felt a need to with any spec.

 

Swap Infrared Sensors & Advanced Tools:

 

OK fine. You might have a point here - I was spitballing. However, Infrared Sensors also have no place being in a PvE spec tree. Maybe just make it something else useful for PvE.

 

Point is, PvPers have 2 skill trees to choose from right now and PvEers have the scraps left over. Balance one tree for PvP, and give us PvEers one viable spec tree is the message here. As a player, I shouldn't even have to give suggestions like this but it's painfully apparent that the developers aren't looking at this stuff and/or don't care. I'm just hoping one of them wanders in here and sees our plight.

 

Do you even know what Sweltering Heat does? Sweltering Heat is the slow for Pyro. How the hell does reapplying CGC's dot to put a snare on something benefit Shield Tech, WHICH USES ION GAS CYLINDER?

 

And as I said, you are still removing a LARGE amount of the damage from the lower trees that AP and ST spec into just to buff Pyro.

Edited October 31, 2013 by ellenbec

[DAMossimo]

Do you even know what Sweltering Heat does? Sweltering Heat is the slow for Pyro. How the hell does reapplying CGC's dot to put a snare on something benefit Shield Tech, WHICH USES ION GAS CYLINDER?

 

And as I said, you are still removing a LARGE amount of the damage from the lower trees that AP and ST spec into just to buff Pyro.

 

Whoa! Check the 'tude dude.

 

I was just spit-balling ideas - if you have better ones by all means chime in with them!

 

At launch, PTs were overpowered in BOTH PvP & PvE, and we've been nerf-batted and rebuffed to the point they are now again considered top dogs in PvP, but among the lowest DPSers in PvE. Maybe we should just go back to the pre-1.1 trees as a start and rebalance damage output from there?

Edited October 31, 2013 by DAMossimo

[Elyx]

I see many threads about new class representatives etc and many more from unhappy PT players with regards to our dps.

 

I play a PT Pyro and love playing the class. However, I have been forced to swap to my Operative dps or Sniper in Raids as the PT Pyro just does not cut it since the last nerf! Why has the developers constantly ignored our class?????

 

I now see a new thread in the Operative Class section about how they are going to give some "Love" to the Operative DPs.............are they serious? Operative DPS pull some of the best damage in game if played correctly. They far out dps the PT by a large way. And what happens......the Devs give them a buff! This is a joke!

 

And what is happening with our class representative? My opinion on this is that he has to have a PVE perspective aswell as PVP.

 

Let us all hope the devs give the PT some "Love" also soon!

 

Just a minor correction Bob. ONE Operative Spec is posting good numbers. They were talking about the other one. lethality is doing great, doesn't need a thing. Concealment is the one that is challenged. just wanted to clear the record there....they don't have any plans on changing Lethality.

 

On the OP subject, something else you need to consider along with the need for increased regular Consistent DPS. They also plan on bringing down the DPS ceiling. so the difference between the PT and the "higher damage" classes will drop. It's pretty well know at this point who those are (cough, snipers and maras, cough). once that ceiling is brought down, then the disparity will be far less prevalent.

 

NOw, what nerfs are you talking about? the way I understood things, the changes in 2.4 were beneficial to PT's. more energy regen, damage was redistributed a bit....could you explain to me what changes impacted Pt's so much that 2.4 was a nerf? Regardless, PT's do need some love. I'm just hoping they also carry through with everything else they pan on doing. IIRC, I don't recall PT's sitting at the bottom of the DPS barrel last time I checked TORparse. they weren't the top thats for sure. Now...in all honesty, I think that they should be sitting comfortably where the jugg's and Mercs are. and snipers and Mara's need to be cut back considerably, period.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Elyx

[JMagee]

The snipers & mara in my group do 3500+ nearly every raid boss fight. Compared to my average 2300 - 2700. I'm 30% behind them in comparative DPS. God it seems even worse now that I calculated it.

 

If you're only pulling 2300-2700 on fights like Nefra and Grob'thok, then you're doing it wrong. Especially in Pyro/Assault. Nefra, especially is perfect for Pyro VG and I can pull 3k+ with 78 offhand and some 78mods. So while VG is still a little rough around the edges. I don't think your 2300 parses on some of those fights are reflective of the class design.

[Ajaxduo]

If you're only pulling 2300-2700 on fights like Nefra and Grob'thok, then you're doing it wrong. Especially in Pyro/Assault. Nefra, especially is perfect for Pyro VG and I can pull 3k+ with 78 offhand and some 78mods. So while VG is still a little rough around the edges. I don't think your 2300 parses on some of those fights are reflective of the class design.

 

Yup Nefra is easy to pull 3k+ on. Here is one of my logs in min maxed UW:

 

Nefra Pure Assault Vanguard Parse

 

Grob'thok is similar, you can pull 3k+ here as Pyrotech/Assault and even higher as Advanced Prototype/Tactics. Remember to use Hydraulic Overrides/Hold the Line exclusively for Flamethrower/Pulse Cannon whilst the Boss is channeling Pipe Smash. Have the off Tank bring adds under the boss also for your FT and DFA:

 

Grob'thok Tactics Parse

 

Hybrid still dominates, but for how long that will remain I'm uncertain so I'm personally sticking to 'pure' tree specs.

[TACeMossie]

Whoa! Check the 'tude dude.

 

I was just spit-balling ideas - if you have better ones by all means chime in with them!

 

At launch, PTs were overpowered in BOTH PvP & PvE, and we've been nerf-batted and rebuffed to the point they are now again considered top dogs in PvP, but among the lowest DPSers in PvE. Maybe we should just go back to the pre-1.1 trees as a start and rebalance damage output from there?

 

Ok, a single change that will make Pyro significantly better in PvE without touching PvP:

 

THERMAL DETONATOR

 

Now applies a debuff (can be cleansed) called Prototype Accelerant, that increases the damage of all DoTs on the target by 20%. This includes other classes DoTs. Lasts 12 seconds.

 

Its a raid-wide buff, and since pretty much all DPS specs have DoTs (well I know Focus/Rage, Arsenal/Gunnery, Combat/Carnage and probably at least one sniper spec don't use them but hey, thats a small percentage, and they all are high-performing specs in raids. And though I dont think shadows/sins use DoTs they are getting a ton of buffs next patch) it also gives added utility to any PTs that want to get into a raid group.

 

Oh and since it has no affect on cleansing and can even be cleansed, its balanced for PvP.

 

(The Vanguard version of this buff would be called Tactical Accelerant)

 

Oh and also

 

ALACRITY

 

Alacrity now affects the cooldown on Procs (e.g. the rail shot proc in Pyro, the proc on Precision Slash, the internal cooldown on Atayru procs, ect...)

Edited November 2, 2013 by TACeMossie