Shouldn't operative concealment be equal to assassin deception?

[Rafkin]

What is it that concealment operative have that justifies them being so worse than deception assassins. Their suppose to fill the same role right?

 

Am I missing something about melee operatives?

[Master-Nala]

The fact is that Assassins cannot heal to full. They also don't have an instant AoE mezz. Deception basically has no AoE worth mentioning. Deception has no 30m ranged attacks. No resurrection skill.

 

Now it is true that deception gets other things but that's the point . Both classes have advantages over the other.

[benovide]

What the heck is a "Melee Operative"? Seriously if you're depending on your Vibroknife as being you're primary mode of damage, don't do any FPs or PVPs.

 

Assassin Deception is to get in close to cut down the enemy, they do not get heals, they are glass cannons. In prolonged fights, they are as good as dead.

 

Operatives however can engage at 30m, you can relocate into better positions to attack unseen and survive short-medium length confrontations, Assassin's can't.

 

Vibroknife is a last resort.

 

If you're a "Melee Operative", just go Assassin route and level that instead.

[Zoom_VI]

What the heck is a "Melee Operative"? Seriously if you're depending on your Vibroknife as being you're primary mode of damage, don't do any FPs or PVPs.

 

Assassin Deception is to get in close to cut down the enemy, they do not get heals, they are glass cannons. In prolonged fights, they are as good as dead.

 

Operatives however can engage at 30m, you can relocate into better positions to attack unseen and survive short-medium length confrontations, Assassin's can't.

 

Vibroknife is a last resort.

 

If you're a "Melee Operative", just go Assassin route and level that instead.

 

Because Lacerate, Hidden strike, shiv are not your best damage abilities and aren't all melee

 

Both specs fill the same roll the difference is in how they do it. Operative has lesser upfront burst but it follows with a steady stream of hard hits, the only flaw holding it back is the spec's squishiness. Assassin has a lot of upfront burst and a good execute, but its followup pressure is weaker and it crits less so its more RNG.

 

The reason Assassins are more effective is simply due to them having better survivability and better utility tools

[Korevas]

Operatives however can engage at 30m, you can relocate into better positions to attack unseen and survive short-medium length confrontations, Assassin's can't.

 

Vibroknife is a last resort.

 

If you're a "Melee Operative", just go Assassin route and level that instead.

 

Have you ever even played operatives that are not healers? The entire concealment tree revolves around melee abilities, the only damaging abilities that are usable at 30m are explosive probe (from cover) and auto attack. The lethality tree has 10m range so that can't be what you mean either...

Edited November 1, 2013 by Korevas

[Atiris]

What the heck is a "Melee Operative"? Seriously if you're depending on your Vibroknife as being you're primary mode of damage, don't do any FPs or PVPs.

 

Assassin Deception is to get in close to cut down the enemy, they do not get heals, they are glass cannons. In prolonged fights, they are as good as dead.

 

Operatives however can engage at 30m, you can relocate into better positions to attack unseen and survive short-medium length confrontations, Assassin's can't.

 

Vibroknife is a last resort.

 

If you're a "Melee Operative", just go Assassin route and level that instead.

 

Operatives are equivilant to Assassins. They both have a heavy melee spec which is Deception / Concealment, a shared DoT spec with their other Advanced Classes, Madness/ Lethality, and another spec that serves a different role other than DPS Darkness (Tank) / Medic (Heal). "Melee Operative" refers to Concealment Operatives who possess the same fundamental design as Deceptino Assassins.

 

I actually find this comparison somewhat comical. At the beginning of SWTOR, Concealment Operatives were one of the most overpowered classes out there and could kill you in one stun rotation. They also had the strongest up front damage in the game, while Deception Assassins had a much more consistant heavy damage throughout the fight. It's interesting because now it seems the roles have reversed and the Operatives have received the blunt end of the stick.

 

Operative's playstyle benefits most from that up-front damage mechanic because of the other spells they have to compliment. Quite frankly, they do not have the utility or versatility to last in longer battles or get away like an Assassin can. Meanwhile, Assassins have skills that are better suited to compliment them in longer fights. They can reset fights on whim, use Blackout to reduce damage received by 25%, have deflection to reduce damage, get rid of Force/ Tech attacks. You would think the Assassins would play a lot like Marauders in the fact that they are still squishy, but have enough survival skills to compliment them.

 

I don't know why Bioware switched these two classes around, but I think it did more harm then good. Assassins, though capable of dealing incredible damage, are hindered by procs and RNG, meanwhile Operatives don't have the support to help with their consistant styles of fighting.

[Korevas]

I actually find this comparison somewhat comical. At the beginning of SWTOR, Concealment Operatives were one of the most overpowered classes out there and could kill you in one stun rotation. They also had the strongest up front damage in the game, while Deception Assassins had a much more consistant heavy damage throughout the fight. It's interesting because now it seems the roles have reversed and the Operatives have received the blunt end of the stick.

 

What people like to forget about the early times is that for operatives, a lot of things that were different then worked together to their benefit. PvP adrenals gave lots of bonus damage, on use relics were stronger, and players would have drastic gear differences that were not countered by bolster as much. All of this affected all classes of course, but the one who was extremely bursty made it that much more apparent.

 

Later on, they changed all of these factors and heavily nerfed ops again and again and again, so now there really is not much left, especially compared to assassins, which do seem to fare quite well in pvp at least.

[benovide]

Have you ever even played operatives that are not healers? The entire concealment tree revolves around melee abilities, the only damaging abilities that are usable at 30m are explosive probe (from cover) and auto attack. The lethality tree has 10m range so that can't be what you mean either...

 

I have Concealment Spec on my Operative, Focusing on Melee with the Operative is, and always has been suicide since the tree was finalized. It's purely defensive in PVP for when Melee players get in close to you. It isn't meant to be the main mode of attack.

 

The purpose is to aid you in getting into a better firing position. And defending yourself when you get zergged. Nothing more, and has never been intended to be equal in offensive ability as the Assassins Deception Ability.

[benovide]

Operatives are equivilant to Assassins. They both have a heavy melee spec which is Deception / Concealment, a shared DoT spec with their other Advanced Classes, Madness/ Lethality, and another spec that serves a different role other than DPS Darkness (Tank) / Medic (Heal). "Melee Operative" refers to Concealment Operatives who possess the same fundamental design as Deceptino Assassins.

 

I actually find this comparison somewhat comical. At the beginning of SWTOR, Concealment Operatives were one of the most overpowered classes out there and could kill you in one stun rotation. They also had the strongest up front damage in the game, while Deception Assassins had a much more consistant heavy damage throughout the fight. It's interesting because now it seems the roles have reversed and the Operatives have received the blunt end of the stick.

 

Operative's playstyle benefits most from that up-front damage mechanic because of the other spells they have to compliment. Quite frankly, they do not have the utility or versatility to last in longer battles or get away like an Assassin can. Meanwhile, Assassins have skills that are better suited to compliment them in longer fights. They can reset fights on whim, use Blackout to reduce damage received by 25%, have deflection to reduce damage, get rid of Force/ Tech attacks. You would think the Assassins would play a lot like Marauders in the fact that they are still squishy, but have enough survival skills to compliment them.

 

I don't know why Bioware switched these two classes around, but I think it did more harm then good. Assassins, though capable of dealing incredible damage, are hindered by procs and RNG, meanwhile Operatives don't have the support to help with their consistant styles of fighting.

 

Since game launch and reorgenization of the classes, Operatives and Assassins have been geared towards completely different roles. The Assassin is, and was never meant to be the equiv to an Op and vice-versa.

 

The concealment is purely defensive, to go in, and ****. Hense the stun abilities that allow you to recloak quickly after distancing or escaping from a situation, and then allowing you to go back into it.

 

The Deception Ability is to gear up the Assassin to close with and begin battle.

 

The Concealment Ability tree is to allow movement into position to harrass/skrimish the fight. Either drawing the idiot player who chases him into Snipers/Marauders/Mercs, or to drag them into an ambush between other Ops.

 

Operative is a Skirmisher, not a Brawler.

 

If you can't understand the playstyle differences between Ranged and Melee DPS Classes, and the relationships between Melee DPS classes and relationships between Ranged DPS classes, and the relationships they have between Ranged and Melee, you need to learn how to actually play the game.

 

This argument is as stupid as a Jedi Guardian crying how he can't DPS like a Sentinal, or why a Marauder can't do crap against the Sniper.

 

This is a huge lack of knowledge of gameplay mechanics.

Edited November 2, 2013 by benovide

[Racter]

What the serious **** are you mouth breathers talking about? Both are stealth burst classes. Operatives suck *** comparatively because bads like these kids cried at launch that their level 11 trooper was getting two shot by the 50 op in full bm with adrenals and relics up so they nerfed the piss out of it. Assassins started out crappy and got the survivability buffs we need back in 1.7, then got the burst damage we used to have in 2.0.

 

Meanwhile, we got a gap closer that is unusable in combat, does nothing when snared and best case scenario takes a fifth of our energy away. Oh, and crit got nerfed hard. Aaaaannnddd health pools basically doubled. Seems legit.

[benovide]

What the serious **** are you mouth breathers talking about? Both are stealth burst classes. Operatives suck *** comparatively because bads like these kids cried at launch that their level 11 trooper was getting two shot by the 50 op in full bm with adrenals and relics up so they nerfed the piss out of it. Assassins started out crappy and got the survivability buffs we need back in 1.7, then got the burst damage we used to have in 2.0.

 

Meanwhile, we got a gap closer that is unusable in combat, does nothing when snared and best case scenario takes a fifth of our energy away. Oh, and crit got nerfed hard. Aaaaannnddd health pools basically doubled. Seems legit.

 

That is legit, it's called Balance.

 

Operator is burst DPS, with the range it better fits with the skirmisher playstyle.

[Ottoattack]

Talking purely from PvP perspective, concealment sucks on all ends. Their burst aint that strong, their DCDs are pathetic (and that putting it nicely) and they have no utility aside from the aoe mezz. Deceptions sins are way better, better burst, DCDs and utilities. Should concealment operative and deception sin be equal? No. They are supposed to fulfill different roles, but they do not and deception sin is substantially better at performing the stealthy burster.

[dakisback]

That is legit, it's called Balance.

 

Operator is burst DPS, with the range it better fits with the skirmisher playstyle.

 

You do know that Assassins have two 30 meter abilities as well right? Force Lightning(Recklessness) and Force Slow.

 

You can only call an operative ranged if they are lethality 'cause while we are closing the 30m gap we can use our dots.

[Monterone]

You do know that Assassins have two 30 meter abilities as well right? Force Lightning(Recklessness) and Force Slow.

 

You can only call an operative ranged if they are lethality 'cause while we are closing the 30m gap we can use our dots.

 

Force Slow is 10m. The only ability Deception gets that's 30m, as you pointed out, is Force Lightning, and only when Recklessness if up. If you overextend from a node and have a minute left on Recklessness, good luck interrupting that node.

[Danylia]

I have Concealment Spec on my Operative, Focusing on Melee with the Operative is, and always has been suicide since the tree was finalized. It's purely defensive in PVP for when Melee players get in close to you. It isn't meant to be the main mode of attack.

 

The purpose is to aid you in getting into a better firing position. And defending yourself when you get zergged. Nothing more, and has never been intended to be equal in offensive ability as the Assassins Deception Ability.

Just to be sure I understand you correctly: are you saying that as a Concealment Operative, the meele attacts are there to allow you to build a range so you can continue using Rifle Shot, Snipe and Explosive Probe, which should be the main part of your DPS?

[Nateous]

benovide

It's clear to me by your comments that either a) you work with ith the same PR people as does BW. B) you have never played a cealment op/scrapper in your life or c) was one of the post launch "bads" that cried foul to operatives "OP - ness" and the root cause of why the class was nerfed to near non-existence. Why you feel a light armored, stealth melee should out perform a medium armored stealth melee in every facet boggles my mind. Even more so the fact that you are not the only assassin to think so. Your words are a cancer that hinders balance and you don't even realize it.

 

-"heal to full". Can be done on medic tree only. No DPS op can h2f in this current state. Ever. Our heals are to costly and not immune to interrupts. At best we can probably get 1 maybe 2off for a whopping 3k? Watch out now!

-"concealment is purely defensive ". Burst classes are offensive by nature. What your describing is tactical design I. E. Strategy. Yes we can pick our fights and our targets but that's only because we have no other choice.

-" stun abilities that allow you to recloak quickly". Lol what ? The prevalence of age damage and a broken stealth mechanic have prevented this since beta. At best we have 1 "recloak abilty" which is only useable one every two minutes. And it is both an offensive and lackluster defensive cooldown. While assassin and even marauders have a better possibility to re-start and re-engage, than we do.

-"and escape". Slows, roots, mezzes, stuns.... I'll even go further than that, highly costly roll ability which does nothing and our turret class counterpart, is leaps and bounds better. You try and escape all this from 4m.

 

-"operative is a skirmisher not a brawler". You realize by definition and historical context that range DPS are more skirmishers than ops are? Let that sink in a bit. When in history was a sole person tasked with going into the front lines, starring up trouble and getting out alive? We are scrappers not martyrs. But that are countless examples of archers, slingshotters, cannons, etc whose sole purpose is to scatter the infantry.

 

What it boils down to is this, if the scrapper was essentially a support class then it would be expected to perform a certain way. But it's not. The nature of damage types and crowd control and developer incompetence prevents it from having the most basic of features. Features that All melee should have. No one is asking for ops to be OP again. We are simple asking to be competitive and on an even footing again. Currently it is not.

[Ridickilis]

Guys, I don't know why you're bothering.

 

Anyone who states that concealment is a ranged class/spec, and that the vibroknife is a last resort, when describing a tree that revolves around the use of a vibroknife as a central ability and the 36 point talent in the tree is there to augment said vibroknife, the person has either never played the spec or is trolling. Plain and simple.

 

There are 22 points to spend in the tree that revolve around buffing the various 4m knife attacks, not even counting the 8 stealth talents or 2 in pin down that I would say further augment getting within melee range and setting up more knife attacks.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Ridickilis

[ThreeLeggedCow]

Since game launch and reorgenization of the classes, Operatives and Assassins have been geared towards completely different roles. The Assassin is, and was never meant to be the equiv to an Op and vice-versa.

 

The concealment is purely defensive, to go in, and ****. Hense the stun abilities that allow you to recloak quickly after distancing or escaping from a situation, and then allowing you to go back into it.

 

The Deception Ability is to gear up the Assassin to close with and begin battle.

 

The Concealment Ability tree is to allow movement into position to harrass/skrimish the fight. Either drawing the idiot player who chases him into Snipers/Marauders/Mercs, or to drag them into an ambush between other Ops.

 

Operative is a Skirmisher, not a Brawler.

 

If you can't understand the playstyle differences between Ranged and Melee DPS Classes, and the relationships between Melee DPS classes and relationships between Ranged DPS classes, and the relationships they have between Ranged and Melee, you need to learn how to actually play the game.

 

This argument is as stupid as a Jedi Guardian crying how he can't DPS like a Sentinal, or why a Marauder can't do crap against the Sniper.

 

This is a huge lack of knowledge of gameplay mechanics.

 

^Is this guy for real?

 

The stupidity of your comment has just FLOORED me. Concealment is NOT a melee spec? This is like saying Advanced Prototype Powertechs are "not melee". All the operatives hard hitting abilities are up close. I suppose you are one of "those" operatives that sits in cover and spams snipe then i take it?

[Wainamoinen]

To "Concealment not a melee class".

 

You reckon you've played Concealment. I can only assume you've played Concealment in warzones up to about level 30. I'd hate to think someone so badly misguided was trying to play Concelament in level 55 warzones.

 

edit: removal of most astounded, sarcastic bewilderment.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[Haystak]

I think the "operative/scoundrel is a ranged class" guy might be on to something though. Think about all of our ranged abilities that we have in comparison. They would in fact be much more useful if they actually did damage. How many 10+ meter abilties do we just not use after level 36 because the damage is atrocious and/or the requirements are to expensive

 

Quickshot(not enough damage and costs to much energy)

Blaster volley(name might be wrong but its the conal ability that requires upperhand to use)

Thermal Grenade(I use it all the time, but its more of a distanced aoe fluffer than an actual "im gonna kill you" ability.)

sabotage charge(I call it the tebow charge as we now have to kneel to use it...apparently praying gives us the abiltiy to throw stuff like a frisbee)

charged burst(The tebow charge) does just about as much damage as quick shot, up to 30m just has a castbar and is a pretty big energy hog.

Flurry of bolts(is only used because it free mostly)

 

Now if these abilties were changed to be less costly to use and did some nice damage, I might actually use them, and then, and only then would I consider scoundrel/scrapper to even be close to a ranged class.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Haystak

[Helig]

Because Lacerate, Hidden strike, shiv are not your best damage abilities and aren't all melee

I think he was being sarcastic. Or I'd like to think that, for the sake of my faith in humanity.

What the serious **** are you mouth breathers talking about? Both are stealth burst classes. Operatives suck *** comparatively because bads like these kids cried at launch that their level 11 trooper was getting two shot by the 50 op in full bm with adrenals and relics up so they nerfed the piss out of it. Assassins started out crappy and got the survivability buffs we need back in 1.7, then got the burst damage we used to have in 2.0.

 

Meanwhile, we got a gap closer that is unusable in combat, does nothing when snared and best case scenario takes a fifth of our energy away. Oh, and crit got nerfed hard. Aaaaannnddd health pools basically doubled. Seems legit.

Actually, I got stunlocked from 100 to 5% as a 17kHP Guardian tank (before broad use of augments was introduced) with Expertise gear, thank you very much. If I didn't have my CC break, I had 0 chance. If I had it, I had a 10% chance to hold out long enough for reinforcements, in case he didn't feel like burning Vanish. The nerfs were completely justified. Shut up, please.

 

But I do agree that the damage nerfs went too far, and the current Concealment combat system isn't up to date with the utility that the class has right now. Got a Concealment Op myself. I think it's pretty good 1v1, but it feels a little clunky in group PvP.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Helig

[Cryowolf]

Actually, I got stunlocked from 100 to 5% as a 17kHP Guardian tank (before broad use of augments was introduced) with Expertise gear, thank you very much...The nerfs were completely justified.

 

I can understand the frustration of being stunlocked. Assassins do it to me all the time these days. But...one fight in which you got destroyed does not justify the ridiculous knee jerk nerfing and 20+ months of continued under performance of an AC. It was completely overboard.

 

But I do agree that the damage nerfs went too far, and the current Concealment combat system isn't up to date with the utility that the class has right now. Got a Concealment Op myself. I think it's pretty good 1v1, but it feels a little clunky in group PvP.

 

Yep, it sucks. So many times I feel like a liabilty.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Cryowolf

[Helig]

Yep, it sucks. So many times I feel like a liabilty.

Myeah, Lethality feels more useful because of the AoE slow. Plus, if the target has enough poisons, Cull produces some hilarious numbers. Cover nerf in 2.5 hurts Lethality more than any other Op spec though.

[Racter]

Again, fully geared op with relics and adrenals vs under geared guardian. The opener back in the day hit for max 3.5K without them and usually less on heavy armor.

 

The cover nerf hurts healers the most by far. lethality its kinda whatever. Concealment and lethality are and have been for almost two years irrelevant specs so I don't really blame bioware for nerfing it for everyone.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Racter

[Helig]

Again, fully geared op with relics and adrenals vs under geared guardian. The opener back in the day hit for max 3.5K without them and usually less on heavy armor.

 

The cover nerf hurts healers the most by far. lethality its kinda whatever. Concealment and lethality are and have been for almost two years irrelevant specs so I don't really blame bioware for nerfing it for everyone.

17kHP used to be a lot on 1.0-1.1. Plus PvP bits here and there (Lady Luck mocked me a lot back then). And the guy didn't seem to have full BM, either. I do realize that he got lucky with crits and procs, but that wasn't really an isolated case. Had things like this (albiet not as bad) happen at several points in time againat different Ops, even when I got full PvP gear.

 

But then again, I also entertained Smash. Instant 8-9k crits on 14-15kHP targets used to be pretty rough.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Helig