Commando Changes Brainstorming

[cashogy_reborn]

Then remove the cast time from Charged Bolts and Grav Round and lets see what happens. Can't interrupt what doesn't have a timer and those are the two staple abilities of the DPS specs.

 

That was already a heavily debated topic, and was found to not be an ideal solution.

[TylerAcalan]

If charged bolts got a CD, damage buff, and an instant cast, then it would be a nice addition. However, it would throw AS's rotation out if whack.

 

So adjust your rotation. Any time a class has something done to them it's going to take time to figure out how the differences come into play and how to adapt to them. Shadows and Scoundrels are going through some serious growing pains due to 2.5 changes.

 

We're next.

 

Whatever happens in 2.6 we will need to adapt regardless, we cannot expect changes and expect our plan of attack to be UNchanged.

 

Will it suck? Yes. Growing pains DO suck. But did anybody in BETA even KNOW what the rotations WERE from the get go? No. A lot of Bothans died to bring us to bring us that information.

 

Change is not painless. We will likely need to adjust rotations anyway. So prepare yourself.

 

That was already a heavily debated topic, and was found to not be an ideal solution.

 

Can you direct me to that please? I'd like to read though that myself and probably missed it if it's in this topic sifting through some of the pointless muck slinging.

Edited December 15, 2013 by TylerAcalan

[cashogy_reborn]

 

 

Can you direct me to that please? I'd like to read though that myself and probably missed it if it's in this topic sifting through some of the pointless muck slinging.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=559457

[ShadowMudkip]

The discussion seems to be heading into the direction of interrupt protection and why we need it. Now that's all good, but that's putting a Band-Aid on a large wound.

 

The real problem, is two things

1.Pushback, which shouldn't even be there.

2. interrupts are to easy to access.

 

Interrupts, when specced, can have as low as a 6 second cooldown. That is to short. I propose that all interrupts be set at a 15 second cooldown while in a pvp warzone or arena. Skill tree points would still affect the cooldown, but now instead of going 8s to 6s. its 15s to 13s. Additionally, there is a 4 second interrupt protection after being interrupted. Some of you might be like "Oh noes not my utility!" but this would be for the better, it would significantly reward better gameplay.

[cashogy_reborn]

The discussion seems to be heading into the direction of interrupt protection and why we need it. Now that's all good, but that's putting a Band-Aid on a large wound.

 

The real problem, is two things

1.Pushback, which shouldn't even be there.

2. interrupts are to easy to access.

 

Interrupts, when specced, can have as low as a 6 second cooldown. That is to short. I propose that all interrupts be set at a 15 second cooldown while in a pvp warzone or arena. Skill tree points would still affect the cooldown, but now instead of going 8s to 6s. its 15s to 13s. Additionally, there is a 4 second interrupt protection after being interrupted. Some of you might be like "Oh noes not my utility!" but this would be for the better, it would significantly reward better gameplay.

 

The devs hinted at an overreaching change to the interrupt/pushback mechanics in the Mercenary Question responses, but who knows if they are still intending on working on that or not (its been a few months with no other community interaction).

[TylerAcalan]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=559457

 

Okay, I read through the first five pages of this and already was sickened by the sheer ignorance of those against it.

 

Can you recommend which pages I should be looking at for a REASONABLE and ACCEPTABLE argument AGAINST it?

[ShadowMudkip]

The devs hinted at an overreaching change to the interrupt/pushback mechanics in the Mercenary Question responses, but who knows if they are still intending on working on that or not (its been a few months with no other community interaction).

 

The Pushback system is absolutely useless. If ranged attacks with cast times were super roflstomp powerful, then I guess I could understand it, but until then... NO

[cashogy_reborn]

Okay, I read through the first five pages of this and already was sickened by the sheer ignorance of those against it.

 

Can you recommend which pages I should be looking at for a REASONABLE and ACCEPTABLE argument AGAINST it?

 

Yeah, the level of stupid in that thread gets really, really high lol.

 

Ill just sum it up for you: instant Grav Round/Charged Bolts all the time removes the drawback to playing ranged. You would be able to maintain very near max damage output while completely mobile, and at 30m if you chose to. There does need to be some give/take with ranged, and cast times do that.

 

What is a far more reasonable request, IMO anyways, is some kind of reactive mechanic that allows us to do damage while mobile in very certain, limited circumstances. Hence my suggestion for the passive mechanic added to Stock Strike; you would almost always be using Stock Strike against a melee opponent that closed distance on you, and it would give you the ability to actually fight back in that situation (granted only short term).

 

The end result is the same (being able to actually fight back when we get attacked), while maintaining the give and take while at range (you would only get the mobility mechanic by engaging in melee combat).

 

The Pushback system is absolutely useless. If ranged attacks with cast times were super roflstomp powerful, then I guess I could understand it, but until then... NO

 

That is the general consensus for ranged players I think, and hopefully if/when the devs get to changing the mechanics they remove pushback entirely.

Edited December 17, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[TheSupaCoopa]

Duran'del here:

 

Here's my ideas.

 

General:

-Plasma Grenade should be renamed to Plasma/Fusion Round, and has an animation to match its new name(similar to charged bolts but with an orange effect).

 

Combat Medic:

-HtL can be speced for an additional 20% speed boost in the Combat Medic tree.

-Stacks of supercharge can be gained while SSC is active.

-Combat Support Cell gives 3% alacrity while active.

-10s of interrupt immunity via Diversion.

-Increase BI's healing.

-Field Triage now (when active) decreases cost of MP to 16, not 17, and increases the healing done by MP by 15%.

-SSC restores 16 ammo instead of 8.

-in addition to its current form, Frontline Medic now has the added effect of allowing Adrenaline rush to be used without a health monitor(turning it into the pre-nerf version that was so use full for Medics) and increasing alacrity by 12%.

-FR now grants 5% alacrity(up from 3%)

 

Gunnery:

-Grav round can no longer be interrupted.

-CoF prices should be more reliable.

-Cell generator now restores 2 ammo every 1.5s.

-charged Barrier grants 2% damage reduction.

[klham]

Yeah, the level of stupid in that thread gets really, really high lol.

 

Ill just sum it up for you: instant Grav Round/Charged Bolts all the time removes the drawback to playing ranged. You would be able to maintain very near max damage output while completely mobile, and at 30m if you chose to. There does need to be some give/take with ranged, and cast times do that.

 

What is a far more reasonable request, IMO anyways, is some kind of reactive mechanic that allows us to do damage while mobile in very certain, limited circumstances. Hence my suggestion for the passive mechanic added to Stock Strike; you would almost always be using Stock Strike against a melee opponent that closed distance on you, and it would give you the ability to actually fight back in that situation (granted only short term).

 

The end result is the same (being able to actually fight back when we get attacked), while maintaining the give and take while at range (you would only get the mobility mechanic by engaging in melee combat).

 

 

 

That is the general consensus for ranged players I think, and hopefully if/when the devs get to changing the mechanics they remove pushback entirely.

 

I like the Stock Strike proc'd instant casts idea, and the removal of pushback from the game (pushback also makes off-heals and the casted mez totally useless when under pressure, in addition to all our casted attacks). It would also be nice to see healers brought up to par for the first time since 1.2. Give us the ability to hammershot-heal ourselves on the run ( or a mobile HoT that restores ammo), and removal of the Green-Beam-'o-Death once and for all.

Edited December 17, 2013 by klham

[headtaker]

maybe fix the bug where when you use full auto it just doesn't work maybe that would be nice.

[DarthSpekulatius]

I'd like to see some changes to Recharge Cells to make it available more often:

Remove the CD of Recharge Cells and Cut its Effect and the Effects of Talents Triggered by it in half,

NEW: activating Recharge Cells now requires and Consumes one stack of "Spare Ammunition"

 

Spare Ammunition is generated by a new Passive Talent, you get two stacks every two minutes or when you leave Combat the Duration is Two minutes (to allow you to track when you'll get the new stacks).

 

the Reasoning:

 

I don't use Recharge Cells on my Mando Healer except in situations of utter Desperation.

it's by far our Strongest CD to Deal with Phases of Burst healing but also our sole safety-net if we make even a minor mistake with our Ammo, the CD doesn't just Feel like an Eternity it is one.

 

in addition most of the time it's full Effect isn't needed the roughly 30Ammo we would get with the new mechanic + Cell Capacitor Talent are worth three Medical Probes without Field Triage buff. (assuming you are in the High regeneration Tier)

and if it is split up into a smaller Amount it's easier to use for the Purpose of Burnphases (for all Troopers) not just to correct Mistakes in the Ammo Management.

 

comments Please!

[Ilshenar]

Not sure if this has been brought up before, or if it would be considered "ripping" off wow to much but why can't our "green Beam" be like a WOW Shaman's Chain Heal?

 

So our hammer shot would hit one player then bounce to 2 other low health people. Have a Talent high up in the medic tree that will reduce amount healed on the first target but give you an extra bounce and loose less healed after the first hit.

 

http://www.hotsdots.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Xata-Chain-Healing.jpg

Edited December 17, 2013 by Ilshenar

[TylerAcalan]

Ill just sum it up for you: instant Grav Round/Charged Bolts all the time removes the drawback to playing ranged. You would be able to maintain very near max damage output while completely mobile, and at 30m if you chose to. There does need to be some give/take with ranged, and cast times do that.

 

Much obliged for the summery. It also reveals that apparently those people did not play a melee at all during 1.6. That may have changed in the last 10 updates.

 

Understand that speed between players remains unchanged UNLESS something happens to cause gaps to open and close.

 

A Commando on the move against say a Guardian on the move will have the same speed. Nothing changes. Meaning yes, a Commando has advantage because they can maintain that 30m because nether player speed changes. So distance cannot be open or closed.

 

Now let's look at the Guardian. They have a few utility tools. Of course the ever important gap closer Force Leap, the gap opener Force Push, a Root/Stun Force Stasis, and a Snare in the form of Freezing Force.

 

Any of these can alter the distance between them and a Commando. Guardians can even spec into various alterations affecting the outcome of these effects. Tank Guardians can erase the cooldown on Force Leap if they use Force Push. So they can close a gap, open it, and close it right back up again. They can root the Commando in place AND CONTINUE TO MOVE since they can render Stasis to not channel. Not only that they can cause Freezing Force to cost nothing and spam it like no tomorrow.

 

With these controls they can easily close the gap between them and a Commando, afterwards they can match the Commando with damage on the move once their in range since they HAVE no channeled abilities (and the single one that can? They can root the Commando with it now.) Once in range, they can easily move at the same speed of the Commando and MAINTAIN that 4m gap.

 

UNLESS the Commando uses one of their various gap openers. Cryo Grenade, Concussion Pulse, Stockstrike root if applicable. Here the 70% snare on Full Auto would be a WONDERFUL gap opener IF WE COULD MOVE.

 

But we can't.

 

Because we don't have anything similar to Tank Guardian Stasis Channel removal.

 

Look at all the other classes. One complaint I see is the amount of stuns in this game. Being stunlocked to death. Controls out the wazoo. Harpoons, Storms, Force Leaps, Force Pulls, Force Pushed, Force Speed, Hold the Line, Flying Fists, Leg Shot, Freezing Force, and this is just Republic Side.

 

I think it's safe to say that Casting in this game with the amount of control abilities in play is dead. We have so many gap openers and closers that anyone who thinks ranged will have a godmode advantage being mobile is deluding themselves. Sure there is some truth to that but that's only if we can MAINTAIN range.

 

Which depending on the skill and abilities available? Could go ether way.

 

Let's look at this another way. Modern Military Doctrine emphasis mobility. Everything from Infantry to Air Support needs to be able to move fast. The Melee reflects that. They can move, they can close, they can open, they can advance, retreat, ambush, fall back, and attack ON THE MOVE with such ferocity they're devastating.

 

Casting reflects back more on 16th century doctrine. Regiments marching around at slow pacing in tight groups with opponents taking turns firing on each other. Warfare at the time was a gentleman's art. It was almost like watching Chess with actual lives.

 

Now here's where it gets interesting. The most devastating and feared unit at the time? Horseback Calvary.

 

Commandos are like the old regiments at the time. They are expected to march around slowly and take turns firing at each other. Melee is like the fast moving hard hitting Horseback Calvary. The infantry at the time? They couldn't break ranks to get away from the Calvary. You were expected to hold your ground and move up when the man in front of you got killed. If you saw a Calvaryman coming at you? Close your eyes and pray to God because you were were about to meet the creator himself in the next few seconds.

 

We as Commandos are expected to do just that. Hold our ground just so we can cast an attack and if we see a melee type coming in hard and fast, roll over and die because there's nothing else we can do. We can't break ranks and evade or counter-charge and meet them head on with the same ferocity.

 

It's high time we stopped using such archaic doctrine. The Commandos are depicted as ferocious frontliner units. WE should be the ones representing fast moving, hard hitting, offensive force. Why'd give give us freaking cannons anyway?

 

Let the gameplay EVOLVE already.

 

The point of the Interrupts was for PvE in which bosses were given such powerful casts that if they weren't interrupted, would splatter full 16 mans across the terrain. Hell Dreadtooth at 10 stack is classified as a 24 man raid and he's not even instanced!

 

No players have such a devastating attack. We can't one shot each other and we certainly can't one man Rambo ANYTHING PvE wise unless we're overgeared/overleveled.

 

We actually NEED that advantage to remain mobile and keep people at range That's how Scoundrels survive, that's how Vanguards survive.

 

And if you don't think we need mobility in PvE, I scoff.

 

Let's get Commandos out of the 16th "Mercy of God" Doctrine and put them where they belong in modern military tactics already.

[DariusCalera]

I would say that Commandos are more akin to the Field Artillery of today.

 

They stand, shoot, and move. (SHOOT, MOVE, COMMUNICATE BOOM BOOM!!!)

 

While I will agree that mobility is the rule on today's battlefield you forgot to mention the King of Battle. To bring their firepower to bear, they must stand still in order to fire accurately.

[TylerAcalan]

While I will agree that mobility is the rule on today's battlefield you forgot to mention the King of Battle. To bring their firepower to bear, they must stand still in order to fire accurately.

 

And if they got overrun the artillery was useless. Which is the exact same thing that's still happening.

 

Even Artillery these days is starting to become mobile.

 

Star Wars already perfected Self-Propelled Artillery. We can see this in the numerous walkers they have.

 

A freaking WALKER has more more mobility then I do! How about they just give me one of those instead?

 

Let's also remember the armor. Commando's wear heavy armor. It's described as such a technological marvel with the most advanced prototype technology to protect the wearers life at all costs. I think something like that has the technology to make aiming a giant cannon easier.

 

Not to mention the cannon itself. Designed to be light enough to be carried and used by a single individual with no detrimental effects but still hit hard enough to be consider a "Heavy Weapon" I'd say it too brings something to the battlefield that doesn't require the user to stand still to use it.

 

You can already use Hammershot on the move. Proof enough you don't need to stand still and not miss.

 

Sure, Artillery is devastating but it doesn't do you any good when the operator was killed or fled leaving the piece behind. The ability to get Artillery mobile has been something people have trying to solve for awhile now. We've got some early successes. Star Wars has solved it.

[cashogy_reborn]

[quote=TylerAcalan;7042419 *snip*

 

For starters, learn to be more concise with your posts. That was a massive fking novel....

 

You are making comparison in imaginary 1v1 scenarios, which is fine, but do not reflect what this game is balanced around: group combat. 8v8 and 4v4 are the balance meters right now. If a commando is supported by several melee/hybrid-melee opponents they will have a much larger cushion to operate from. This is why ranged classes tend to rely on casting, it is part of their group dynamic.

 

We do need more reactive mobility so that in situations where we do get pressured we are able to continue performing our role. But we dont need that mobility all the time. It would create more balance problems than it solved.

[marchesq]

Hello, rarely post. I only want to say this:

 

I truly enjoy the "run and gun" style of play for Assault Commando with

Incendiary Round >Hammer Shot>HIB

Explosive Round>Hammer Shot

 

Yes. I am the dreaded "button masher" casual player that enjoyed playing trooper on Ord Montel, and wanted to keep that same play style as I level during the game.

 

My request is that you continue to allow the casual "button mashers" to have fun in PVP and PVE, and allow Explosive Round to activate plasma cell and buff the damage.

 

No, I don't do the most damage, but I have so much fun running and gunning and contributing to my team, I ask that you continue to allow explosive round to be a viable power.

 

Thanks. That is all. Carry on.

 

.............

I am editing this post so I don't get too much hate.

FYI, yes in PVE I do switch out My explosive round, and stand still as a rock and proc HIB with Full Auto and Charged Bolt. But in PVP? It's run and gun baby!

Edited December 19, 2013 by marchesq
More Info

[DariusCalera]

And if they got overrun the artillery was useless. Which is the exact same thing that's still happening.

 

Even Artillery these days is starting to become mobile.

 

Star Wars already perfected Self-Propelled Artillery. We can see this in the numerous walkers they have.

 

A freaking WALKER has more more mobility then I do! How about they just give me one of those instead?

 

Let's also remember the armor. Commando's wear heavy armor. It's described as such a technological marvel with the most advanced prototype technology to protect the wearers life at all costs. I think something like that has the technology to make aiming a giant cannon easier.

 

Not to mention the cannon itself. Designed to be light enough to be carried and used by a single individual with no detrimental effects but still hit hard enough to be consider a "Heavy Weapon" I'd say it too brings something to the battlefield that doesn't require the user to stand still to use it.

 

You can already use Hammershot on the move. Proof enough you don't need to stand still and not miss.

 

Sure, Artillery is devastating but it doesn't do you any good when the operator was killed or fled leaving the piece behind. The ability to get Artillery mobile has been something people have trying to solve for awhile now. We've got some early successes. Star Wars has solved it.

 

First. the walkers aren't mobile artillery. They are more like tanks. The artillery of the SW universe are like what Yoda commanded in AoTC to bring down that ship. Once again relatively stationary and with a long reach and firepower.

 

Yes, artillery can be over run, that's why it relies on a combined arms team to support it. All branches of the combat arms rely on the other ones in order to properly get their job done. One is not inherently better than the other since one can not properly operate without the others.

[TylerAcalan]

....That was a massive fking novel....

 

Glad to see you enjoyed the read.

 

You are making comparison in imaginary 1v1 scenarios, which is fine, but do not reflect what this game is balanced around: group combat. 8v8 and 4v4 are the balance meters right now. If a commando is supported by several melee/hybrid-melee opponents they will have a much larger cushion to operate from. This is why ranged classes tend to rely on casting, it is part of their group dynamic.

 

We do need more reactive mobility so that in situations where we do get pressured we are able to continue performing our role. But we dont need that mobility all the time. It would create more balance problems than it solved.

 

Even more glad to see you took the time to understand it.

 

I can see where your concerns in but this...

 

If a commando is supported by several melee/hybrid-melee opponents....

 

If a commando is supported...

 

If...

 

If.

 

If,If,If,If,If,If,If,If,If,If,

 

Eye Eff.

 

That one little word right there is what makes or breaks that argument.

 

In a perfect world, yes, a Commando would be supported by Melee Chargers who would run to their aid when a Commando is under pressure.

 

But this isn't a perfect world.

 

And people don't do that.

 

The match maker doesn't see a Commando and puts together a perfect team to support the Commando. It throws the first seven other players that are in the queue together. Grouped or no.

 

The point of group play is that there are the same amount of players on each side. Everyone has a man to cover and face off against. 8vs8? That's just 8 1vs1's. Look at every sport. Everyone has an equal opposite on the field. Sometimes situations occur where people can double up or triple up on one person.

 

So now it's not a question of 8vs8. It's a question of allowing the Commando to survive an 8 on 1 until someone else can take the pressure off. 7 on 1 because someone else is keeping one busy in a one on one. 4 on 1 as the Tank is holding three of them back. 3 on one as the healer tries to keep them alive while they fight through the pressure and kill someone.

 

Only they can't fight through the pressure. Because the pressure is taking the fight out of them.

 

We have enough problems creating situations to allow us to get off our attack as it is because out set ups are cast while our heavy damaging attacks require us to get off the cast.

 

But in no way do those heavy attacks do so much damage it warrants interrupting us in the first place.

 

So now we're back to the issue that started this discussion.

 

Something needs to give.

 

We need...

 

A new active defensive CC OR adjustments to an existing one to provide interrupt immunity...

 

-OR-

 

A passive interrupt immunity...

 

-OR-

 

Removal of casting to render interrupts moot....

 

You've argued against all three Cash. Time for something to give unless you come up with something that doesn't fall under those three that no one has considered yet.

 

This may be group play but unless everyone is willing to all suddenly become social butterflies and start supporting each other (and lets face it, support never quite gets the same glory as the top guy on the scoreboard who MUST be the best of all because he's number one so let's celebrate his ******ery while we plot to climb over his corpse and take it ourselves...) we should expect an 8 on 1 fight. I don't expect to survive that one. But can I at least get 15 seconds of survival while the rest of my team gets their act together?

[cashogy_reborn]

Glad to see you enjoyed the read.

 

 

 

Even more glad to see you took the time to understand it.

 

I can see where your concerns in but this...

 

 

 

If.

 

If,If,If,If,If,If,If,If,If,If,

 

Eye Eff.

 

That one little word right there is what makes or breaks that argument.

 

In a perfect world, yes, a Commando would be supported by Melee Chargers who would run to their aid when a Commando is under pressure.

 

But this isn't a perfect world.

 

And people don't do that.

 

The match maker doesn't see a Commando and puts together a perfect team to support the Commando. It throws the first seven other players that are in the queue together. Grouped or no.

 

The point of group play is that there are the same amount of players on each side. Everyone has a man to cover and face off against. 8vs8? That's just 8 1vs1's. Look at every sport. Everyone has an equal opposite on the field. Sometimes situations occur where people can double up or triple up on one person.

 

So now it's not a question of 8vs8. It's a question of allowing the Commando to survive an 8 on 1 until someone else can take the pressure off. 7 on 1 because someone else is keeping one busy in a one on one. 4 on 1 as the Tank is holding three of them back. 3 on one as the healer tries to keep them alive while they fight through the pressure and kill someone.

 

Only they can't fight through the pressure. Because the pressure is taking the fight out of them.

 

We have enough problems creating situations to allow us to get off our attack as it is because out set ups are cast while our heavy damaging attacks require us to get off the cast.

 

But in no way do those heavy attacks do so much damage it warrants interrupting us in the first place.

 

So now we're back to the issue that started this discussion.

 

Something needs to give.

 

We need...

 

A new active defensive CC OR adjustments to an existing one to provide interrupt immunity...

 

-OR-

 

A passive interrupt immunity...

 

-OR-

 

Removal of casting to render interrupts moot....

 

You've argued against all three Cash. Time for something to give unless you come up with something that doesn't fall under those three that no one has considered yet.

 

This may be group play but unless everyone is willing to all suddenly become social butterflies and start supporting each other (and lets face it, support never quite gets the same glory as the top guy on the scoreboard who MUST be the best of all because he's number one so let's celebrate his ******ery while we plot to climb over his corpse and take it ourselves...) we should expect an 8 on 1 fight. I don't expect to survive that one. But can I at least get 15 seconds of survival while the rest of my team gets their act together?

 

8v8 is not 8 separate 1v1s. Focus fire, peeling, tank support, healers, etc. Its about group mechanics, and having your group be more coordinated and effective than the opposing group. You bring up matchmaking and how it works, and I agree it sucks. But b/c it sucks I think that it should not be considered in terms of balance; if you want to play a class like Commando and really be successful at it you have to do two things: play at a stupid high skill level, and having group members that actually support/complement you. The latter means you are likely going to have to find friends to group with for PvP.

 

In that situation, its not 1v7 or 1v4 etc as you suggest. Its 4v4 or 3v3 or 8v8 or etc etc. MMO combat is generally based around team combat, and that is the case in this game.

 

I have argued against adding CC b/c this game does not need more CC. For any class.

I have not argued against giving some kind of passive or active interrupt resistance. In fact just a few posts ago I agreed with someone suggesting that the Combat Medic Energy Shield interrupt immunity be made baseline so all specs can benefit from it. However, I am not in favor of a system similar to Sniper's Cover; there are ways to solve our problems w/out reducing the uniqueness of the class.

You cant remove casting entirely. And Ill keep arguing against that suggestion, because from an overall balance standpoint it would cause more problems than it fixed.

 

You dont seem to have acknowledged my Stock Strike "Run and Gun" suggestion, so I will reiterate. A passive, baseline ability for Commandos that does the following: Stock Strike has a 100% chance to proc 3 charges of "Run and Gun". Abilities with cast times will activate instantly, and consume 1 charge of "Run and Gun". "Run and Gun" lasts for 15s, or until all charges are consumed. This effect cannot occur more than once every 20s.

 

This kind of change would give us the interrupt resistance (removes cast times temporarily) and mobility that we need in combat against melee opponents (hence linking it to Stock Strike, which you should rarely be using offensively), while maintaining the trade-off of having to cast to apply damage from up to 30m.

 

 

As far as your last paragraph, balance needs to continue to be based around the highest level of gameplay, ie team-based combat in 4v4s (currently) and 8v8 (hopefully again in the future). Bottomline is that this is an MMO, and unless there is a new free-for-all deathmatch mode, you are always going to be dependent on your teammates. Thats a major reason why people make premades; so they know that who they are playing with will do their part.

 

Also, asking to survive for 15s in an 8v1 situation is absurd. Thats the kind of survival that Mara/Sents had, and they clearly had more survivability than they should have. You sound awfully bitter about people that top the scoreboard. You are aware that Commando can do that quite easily as well right? Asking Bioware to improve the class to cover up your own shortcomings isnt going to get anyone anywhere.

Edited December 19, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[TylerAcalan]

If you want to play a class like Commando and really be successful at it you have to do two things: play at a stupid high skill level, and having group members that actually support/complement you. The latter means you are likely going to have to find friends to group with for PvP.

 

True but that's a very small community of dedicated people to break into. I have had little to no success in actually getting anything organized.

 

In that situation, its not 1v7 or 1v4 etc as you suggest.

 

How do you win an Arena again? Aren't you supposed to all four of you focus down the weak link and take them all down one at a time? 4vs1 Cash. 4vs1.

 

You dont seem to have acknowledged my Stock Strike "Run and Gun" suggestion, so I will reiterate. A passive, baseline ability for Commandos that does the following: Stock Strike has a 100% chance to proc 3 charges of "Run and Gun". Abilities with cast times will activate instantly, and consume 1 charge of "Run and Gun". "Run and Gun" lasts for 15s, or until all charges are consumed. This effect cannot occur more than once every 20s.

 

This kind of change would give us the interrupt resistance (removes cast times temporarily) and mobility that we need in combat against melee opponents (hence linking it to Stock Strike, which you should rarely be using offensively), while maintaining the trade-off of having to cast to apply damage from up to 30m.

 

I have acknowledged that idea. You yourself admit right here:

 

(hence linking it to Stock Strike, which you should rarely be using offensively

 

That honestly, we should not be using Stock Strike unless we're in a melee range. At which point we're dead anyway. Stock Strike already has a cooldown of 9 seconds and the rate at which melee close on you, you need to really be able to swing that cannon. Once you get that off you can only fire three abilities and then have to wait for 20 seconds before you can use that again, whether or not you died(Oh you're totally going to die at least 5 more times before you can proc again). Because it forces you into that point blank range you shouldn't be in the first place, you're dead anyway.

 

I already did address it. It will turn us into a suicide bomber class. I don't want to play a suicide bomber. Hell it's not even going to turn us into a very GOOD suicide bomber because we won't take anyone with us. There is no combination that allows us to three-shot anyone. (And if there was, why haven't we been nerfed into the bloody ground even further?)

 

As far as your last paragraph, balance needs to continue to be based around the highest level of gameplay, ie team-based combat in 4v4s (currently) and 8v8 (hopefully again in the future). Bottomline is that this is an MMO, and unless there is a new free-for-all deathmatch mode, you are always going to be dependent on your teammates. Thats a major reason why people make premades; so they know that who they are playing with will do their part.

 

And for those of us that simply aren't capable of breaking into that highest level of gameplay? What are we supposed to do, Do the 1-50 content and leave? Oh wait...

 

Also, asking to survive for 15s in an 8v1 situation is absurd. Thats the kind of survival that Mara/Sents had, and they clearly had more survivability than they should have. You sound awfully bitter about people that top the scoreboard. You are aware that Commando can do that quite easily as well right? Asking Bioware to improve the class to cover up your own shortcomings isnt going to get anyone anywhere.

 

Yep. This right here:

 

Asking Bioware to improve the class to cover up your own shortcomings isnt going to get anyone anywhere.

 

Translation: Do the story content and get out since you will never be as good as the rest of us.

 

I will fully admit that I am nowhere near capable of even ranking on the leaderboards. WITH ANY CLASS. And I'm not even upset about that.

 

What DOES bother me is that you want to raise the skill ceiling so high that people will just continue to go play easy to pick up and learn classes. They will demand more for those classes and we will never see changes for over a year again continuing to slowly become obsolete to the point where they should just remove the class from the game.

 

A little bit of lowering the skill floor can work miracles. Let you breath some and stretch creative ways of playing the class for those already of apparently your caliber. It encourages more players to play Commandos and forces them to make a once easy choice (Should I play a Commando or <Class X>?) a little more difficult. We could find people wanting to play Commandos more.

 

I will admit it again.

 

I suck SO HORRIBLY at PvP that I will NEVER rank on the leaderboard and NEVER get any of those promised rewards because

 

I WANT TO PLAY MY

 

COMMANDO.

 

 

Can I pretty pretty please with your permission play a class I enjoy playing and at least not be the laughing stock of the playerbase because of the game mechanics?

 

And about that 15 seconds? Yes I was throwing random numbers around.

 

Because let's face it. Theory alone isn't going to help this class.

 

Theory ...and Practice.

 

Even Bioware admitted they goofed up horribly when it came projected Commando/Mercenary being Overpowered and Gunslingers/Snipers Sentinals/Mauraders being underpowered.

 

We did this because, while the other classes have an opportunity to fulfill one of two different roles in an operation, Marauders/Sentinels and Snipers/Gunslingers can only fulfill the damage dealing role in operations. So we made sure they dealt plenty of damage, and then we gave them utility to boot – probably too much damage, and probably too much utility, judging by the operation groups that some guilds put together.

 

The reason why Mercenaries/Commandos were originally given longer, weaker cooldowns is because they are passively superior to many of the other classes in the game. By nature of wearing the heaviest armor in the game, they take less damage than many other classes without needing to touch a button. They also have the ability to heal themselves and their allies, along with a 30 meter range for most of their abilities.

 

It is fairly clear now that Mercenaries/Commandos are not the dominating force on the field of battle that we originally feared they might be. With that said, some classes have utilities that are just too strong and/or cooldown durations that are quite possibly too short – the Marauder/Sentinel is a good example of a class like this.

 

Sounds like they needed more Practice and less Theory.

 

So how about we get some of these changes implemented and see what happens.

 

If they do implement your Suicide Bomber idea Cash and it actually works like you Theorize. I will admit I was wrong.

[LtBombshell]

Couldn't this whole thread-long debate be solved though the implementation of both your ideas (cash's and tyler's)? Or would that.... not work?

[cashogy_reborn]

How do you win an Arena again? Aren't you supposed to all four of you focus down the weak link and take them all down one at a time? 4vs1 Cash. 4vs1.

 

Wrong. You have 3 teammates to support you. Do not even bring up Solo Queue; it has no place in balance discussions.

 

 

 

 

I have acknowledged that idea. You yourself admit right here:

 

That honestly, we should not be using Stock Strike unless we're in a melee range. At which point we're dead anyway. Stock Strike already has a cooldown of 9 seconds and the rate at which melee close on you, you need to really be able to swing that cannon. Once you get that off you can only fire three abilities and then have to wait for 20 seconds before you can use that again, whether or not you died(Oh you're totally going to die at least 5 more times before you can proc again). Because it forces you into that point blank range you shouldn't be in the first place, you're dead anyway.

 

Wrong. You have a serious 'learn to play' problem if this is really what you think.

 

 

I already did address it. It will turn us into a suicide bomber class. I don't want to play a suicide bomber. Hell it's not even going to turn us into a very GOOD suicide bomber because we won't take anyone with us. There is no combination that allows us to three-shot anyone. (And if there was, why haven't we been nerfed into the bloody ground even further?)

 

Wrong. Again, your lack of skill is showing.

 

 

 

And for those of us that simply aren't capable of breaking into that highest level of gameplay? What are we supposed to do, Do the 1-50 content and leave? Oh wait...

 

 

Wrong. Get a few friends and queue for regs. Get a few friends and queue for Group Ranked. You seem to expect to maintain the same performance whether you roll solo or in a group, which is the wrong mentality to have.

 

 

 

 

Yep. This right here:

 

Translation: Do the story content and get out since you will never be as good as the rest of us.

 

I will fully admit that I am nowhere near capable of even ranking on the leaderboards. WITH ANY CLASS. And I'm not even upset about that.

 

What DOES bother me is that you want to raise the skill ceiling so high that people will just continue to go play easy to pick up and learn classes. They will demand more for those classes and we will never see changes for over a year again continuing to slowly become obsolete to the point where they should just remove the class from the game.

 

 

Wrong. What I am suggesting does not raise the skill cap. In fact it actually lowers it a tad, as it makes dealing with melee opponents far easier.

 

A little bit of lowering the skill floor can work miracles. Let you breath some and stretch creative ways of playing the class for those already of apparently your caliber. It encourages more players to play Commandos and forces them to make a once easy choice (Should I play a Commando or <Class X>?) a little more difficult. We could find people wanting to play Commandos more.

 

I will admit it again.

 

I suck SO HORRIBLY at PvP that I will NEVER rank on the leaderboard and NEVER get any of those promised rewards because

 

I WANT TO PLAY MY

 

COMMANDO.

 

 

1. This is not about getting more people to play Commando. Its about improving class balance.

2. You dont suck because you play a Commando. You suck because you suck. Dont blame the class, especially when there are people that are playing it well in Ranked.

 

Can I pretty pretty please with your permission play a class I enjoy playing and at least not be the laughing stock of the playerbase because of the game mechanics?

 

And about that 15 seconds? Yes I was throwing random numbers around.

 

Because let's face it. Theory alone isn't going to help this class.

 

Theory ...and Practice.

 

Even Bioware admitted they goofed up horribly when it came projected Commando/Mercenary being Overpowered and Gunslingers/Snipers Sentinals/Mauraders being underpowered.

 

Sounds like they needed more Practice and less Theory.

 

So how about we get some of these changes implemented and see what happens.

 

 

Again, you arent a laughing stock b/c you play Commando. You are a laughing stock b/c you suck.

Yes, the devs were idiots in both theory and practice in terms of previous class balance decisions. Hopefully that is changing.

 

 

If they do implement your Suicide Bomber idea Cash and it actually works like you Theorize. I will admit I was wrong.

 

Its not a 'suicide bomber idea', and that fact you think it is makes me think that you do not truly understand how to play the class to its greatest potential.

 

And before anyone says it, yes, I am an a**hole. But I know what Im talking about.

[schooch]

True but that's a very small community of dedicated people to break into. I have had little to no success in actually getting anything organized.

 

 

 

How do you win an Arena again? Aren't you supposed to all four of you focus down the weak link and take them all down one at a time? 4vs1 Cash. 4vs1.

 

 

 

I have acknowledged that idea. You yourself admit right here:

 

 

 

And for those of us that simply aren't capable of breaking into that highest level of gameplay? What are we supposed to do, Do the 1-50 content and leave? Oh wait...

 

 

 

Translation: Do the story content and get out since you will never be as good as the rest of us.

 

I will fully admit that I am nowhere near capable of even ranking on the leaderboards. WITH ANY CLASS. And I'm not even upset about that.

 

What DOES bother me is that you want to raise the skill ceiling so high that people will just continue to go play easy to pick up and learn classes. They will demand more for those classes and we will never see changes for over a year again continuing to slowly become obsolete to the point where they should just remove the class from the game.

 

A little bit of lowering the skill floor can work miracles. Let you breath some and stretch creative ways of playing the class for those already of apparently your caliber. It encourages more players to play Commandos and forces them to make a once easy choice (Should I play a Commando or <Class X>?) a little more difficult. We could find people wanting to play Commandos more.

 

I will admit it again.

 

I suck SO HORRIBLY at PvP that I will NEVER rank on the leaderboard and NEVER get any of those promised rewards because

 

I WANT TO PLAY MY

 

COMMANDO.

 

 

Can I pretty pretty please with your permission play a class I enjoy playing and at least not be the laughing stock of the playerbase because of the game mechanics?

 

And about that 15 seconds? Yes I was throwing random numbers around.

 

Because let's face it. Theory alone isn't going to help this class.

 

Theory ...and Practice.

 

Even Bioware admitted they goofed up horribly when it came projected Commando/Mercenary being Overpowered and Gunslingers/Snipers Sentinals/Mauraders being underpowered.

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like they needed more Practice and less Theory.

 

So how about we get some of these changes implemented and see what happens.

 

If they do implement your Suicide Bomber idea Cash and it actually works like you Theorize. I will admit I was wrong.

 

HAHAHAHA

 

 

 

It just goes to show that the commando class has the most dumb players of any class. That is the real "problem" with the class.