Commando Changes Brainstorming

[schooch]

This would increase our survivalbility.

 

we don't need better survivalbility.

[TylerAcalan]

we don't need better survivalbility.

 

Please clarify why you believe this.

[cashogy_reborn]

Please clarify why you believe this.

 

Because our survivability does not need a buff.

 

The areas this class needs help are interrupt resistance and mobility. If you know what youre doing, Mando/Merc is tough as nails.

[TylerAcalan]

So sufficed to say you feel as though if we could avoid being shut down on output, we can kill more which in and of itself increases survivablity as there is less incoming.

 

I can buy that. It satisfies both requirements.

[cashogy_reborn]

So sufficed to say you feel as though if we could avoid being shut down on output, we can kill more which in and of itself increases survivablity as there is less incoming.

 

I can buy that. It satisfies both requirements.

 

Sort of. You say survivability, and the majority of people (including the devs) think damage reduction cooldowns, CC, etc. Which is something we dont really need more of. I would rather see the areas where we are actually in need of serious help so that we can better compete.

[RaptorClown]

commando as for dps has quite nice survi.

[HaoZhao]

All commandos have great survival. Concussion Charge, Hold The Line, and Adrenaline Rush are an amazing escape combo. You can also Kolto Bomb yourself while you're on the run as well.

 

The main problem still remains that interrupts and the lack of a reliable instant heal are making it so any two melee DPS can shut easily shut down a commando healer permanently outside of the brief moments when you have reactive shield on. Even when you're immune to interrupts, you can still be stunned or knocked back unless you're also at max resolve.

 

No matter what other problems you think commando healers have right now (heat management, etc.), the interrupt/instant healing problem absolutely needs to be addressed first. Commando works fine as a healer in 80% of PUG matches, but in a match with any kind of organized DPS effort, Commando healers can quickly become lame ducks, just because of the interrupts.

[PhatMcMuffins]

What do you guys think of changing Bacta Infusion to be more like the Operative's Surgical Probe? Remove the cooldown on Bacta Infusion and have it consume 10 support cell charges on use. Like the operative's tactical advantage, there should be more ways of generating support cell charges. Critical heals from Kolto Bomb could generate some charges, for example. Having a reliable instant heal would go a long way to getting around the problem we face from interrupts, yes?

 

I love this. Add a 6 second immunity interrupt to Chaff flare/diversion in the heals tree and it may just be enough

[TylerAcalan]

Sort of. You say survivability, and the majority of people (including the devs) think damage reduction cooldowns, CC, etc. Which is something we dont really need more of. I would rather see the areas where we are actually in need of serious help so that we can better compete.

 

I will actually agree with you. My definition of survivability is more in relation to TTK. When I say better survivablity I am referring to uptime and how long the Commando lasts before perishing. This is affected by, yes defensive cooldowns, but also in terms of damage output, and natural passive damage mitigation (to which I am refering to passive abilities and armor rating doing it's job of reducing damage, the stuff you CAN'T really affect).

 

I agree that we DON'T need more defensive cooldowns and we DON'T need the current ones adjusted. In my mind the problem lies more with the latter two which is damage output and natural mitigation.

 

Personally I would like to see them address the problem of damage output first before seeing to passive damage mitigation. In which we are speaking the same thing. We want to see this problem of interrupts dealt with.

 

I have already stated the class is over reliant on channeling and casting. This leads to our problem of interrupts and pushback. If you can't get the cast off or have your channeling reduced by pushback, that's damage you're not doing.

 

You can't kill what you can't hurt. The more damage going out, the more enemies drop. The few enemies there are, the less damage coming in. The less damage coming in, the better your chances of survival.

 

Besides that, active defensive abilities are damage mitigation through utility. We are Heavy Armor class wearers. We should be able to faceroll that damage and continue to march forward. That's the point of Heavy Armor in the first place, to need to focus on less utility and more pew pew. When I ask for more survivability, I am also referring to this. I don't need to be the Juggernaught but I should be able to handle two or three things pounding on me with relative ease WITHOUT popping a shield or Adren Rush. Hell I'll settle for being able to go 20 seconds in a 1 vs 1 duel in a PvP map before biting it.

[SpaniardInfinity]

Add a 6 second immunity interrupt to Chaff flare/diversion in the heals tree and it may just be enough

 

One related suggestion I've seen a lot before (but I don't remember seeing in this thread -- there's 30+ pages so I may very well have missed it) that could help is adding an additional function to Diversion/Chaff Flare that, when activated, you cannot be targeted by any enemy players for ~5 seconds. Basically, that's a fancy way of saying that when you tab-target through possible targets, a Commando/Mercenary that used Diversion/Chaff Flare will not be on that "list" for ~5 seconds. (Clicking on the Commando/Mercenary manually would not target them, either). It rules out all single-target attacks, but leaves them vulnerable to AoE attacks which have no target requirements. Any single-target attack in progress, such as a Master Strike/Ravage, should also be cancelled.

 

Adding something like this would give Commandos and Mercenaries a way of countering high burst damage in an emergency like Smuggler's stealth or Sage's Force Barrier. Because enemies also cannot single-target attack you, they theoretically won't be able to single-target CC or interrupt you. Something like this would also probably be pretty helpful for Vanguards/Powertechs, who could also use some love.

 

The only issue with this is that it kind of defeats the purpose of traits in the DPS trees that buff Diversion/Chaff Flare (both would probably need a redesign). I also think the cooldown is somewhat too short at 45 seconds, but since it has an important purpose in PVE, it's risky to increase it too much. Tied to this is the implementation problem it may pose in PVE since if this additional effect also applied there, Commandos and Mercenaries would be able to avoid perhaps too much damage if they cannot be targeted by the boss.

Edited December 9, 2013 by SpaniardInfinity

[kenmc]

One related suggestion I've seen a lot before (but I don't remember seeing in this thread -- there's 30+ pages so I may very well have missed it) that could help is adding an additional function to Diversion/Chaff Flare that, when activated, you cannot be targeted by any enemy players for ~5 seconds. Basically, that's a fancy way of saying that when you tab-target through possible targets, a Commando/Mercenary that used Diversion/Chaff Flare will not be on that "list" for ~5 seconds.

 

Maybe to avoid this being considered too powerful could change it where diversion/chaff flare to make every player that has you targeted to lose you as their target, and interrupt their current single target move. Wouldn't get rid of DoTs and stuff like that, but would help avoid master strike or other channeled abilities, which could help. They could target you again right away, but master strike or whatever channeled ability they were using would be on CD. Probably wouldn't make a huge difference when used by itself, but when used with other abilities could give you that little extra breathing room to run away. Also making this so that it only would effect players that have you targeted and not npcs, so that this change wouldn't effect PvE at all. Also to avoid this affecting PvE much you would probably need to make this something that you spec into, that wouldn't be required for getting higher up in the tree. Would be really annoying if you are a dps in an ops group or fp, and the healer loses you as a target when you hit diversion every time. This would also make it so that they could give this ability to just commandos, and not both commandos and vanguards since they both have diversion now.

[schooch]

Please clarify why you believe this.

 

Because our survivability does not need a buff.

 

The areas this class needs help are interrupt resistance and mobility. If you know what youre doing, Mando/Merc is tough as nails.

 

 

Cashogy basically summed it up.

[LaniAkavir]

Suggested Changes for Combat Medics:

 

Bacta Infusion: No Cost, Instantly heals a friendly target for an amount, no cooldown, but target gets a lockout debuff named "Bacta Immunity" for 21 seconds.

Set Bonus reduces lockout for 3 seconds.

Idea originated from comapnion healers and their kolto jolt lockouts.

 

 

1. Trauma Probe: 1 ammo (8 energy), does not respect global cooldown, cooldown of 1.5 second. (Like Acid Blade/Flechette Round)
   or
   
2. Trauma Probe: 4 ammo (35 energy), applies to whole group/raid
   or
   
3. Trauma Probe: No Cost
   

Edited December 10, 2013 by LaniAkavir

[cashogy_reborn]

I will actually agree with you. My definition of survivability is more in relation to TTK. When I say better survivablity I am referring to uptime and how long the Commando lasts before perishing. This is affected by, yes defensive cooldowns, but also in terms of damage output, and natural passive damage mitigation (to which I am refering to passive abilities and armor rating doing it's job of reducing damage, the stuff you CAN'T really affect).

 

I agree that we DON'T need more defensive cooldowns and we DON'T need the current ones adjusted. In my mind the problem lies more with the latter two which is damage output and natural mitigation.

 

Personally I would like to see them address the problem of damage output first before seeing to passive damage mitigation. In which we are speaking the same thing. We want to see this problem of interrupts dealt with.

 

I have already stated the class is over reliant on channeling and casting. This leads to our problem of interrupts and pushback. If you can't get the cast off or have your channeling reduced by pushback, that's damage you're not doing.

 

You can't kill what you can't hurt. The more damage going out, the more enemies drop. The few enemies there are, the less damage coming in. The less damage coming in, the better your chances of survival.

 

Besides that, active defensive abilities are damage mitigation through utility. We are Heavy Armor class wearers. We should be able to faceroll that damage and continue to march forward. That's the point of Heavy Armor in the first place, to need to focus on less utility and more pew pew. When I ask for more survivability, I am also referring to this. I don't need to be the Juggernaught but I should be able to handle two or three things pounding on me with relative ease WITHOUT popping a shield or Adren Rush. Hell I'll settle for being able to go 20 seconds in a 1 vs 1 duel in a PvP map before biting it.

 

I dont think our passive mitigation needs a change. We already have the highest base damage mitigation for any non-tank; increasing it any further would cause a whole lot of rage (Merc/Mando having heavy armor is one of the biggest whines I see from other classes). We shouldnt be able to faceroll anyone's damage, that would create a large balancing issue. Handling "two or three things pounding" on you? No. That is never, and should never, happen.

 

The one area where I really, really, really want to see improvement is our ability to maintain damage output under pressure. Tech Override is decent at that in Gunnery, but is mostly useless in the other 2 specs (1 use on a 2min cooldown? Really devs?). TO should be on a much shorter base cooldown, and IMO it wouldnt hurt to up it to 2, or even 3, base uses.

 

Or, and this is an idea I offered up a very long time ago:

 

Stock Strike has a 100% chance to proc 3 charges of "Run and Gun". Abilities with cast times will activate instantly, and consume 1 charge of "Run and Gun". "Run and Gun" lasts for 15s, or until all charges are consumed. This effect cannot occur more than once every 20s

 

It would basically give you charges of Tech Override when you used Stock Strike, which as a Mando/Merc should almost never be a primary offensive tool. It would also give a reason for Assault and Combat Medic players to actually use Stock Strike.

[TylerAcalan]

I dont think our passive mitigation needs a change. We already have the highest base damage mitigation for any non-tank; increasing it any further would cause a whole lot of rage (Merc/Mando having heavy armor is one of the biggest whines I see from other classes). We shouldnt be able to faceroll anyone's damage, that would create a large balancing issue. Handling "two or three things pounding" on you? No. That is never, and should never, happen.

 

The one area where I really, really, really want to see improvement is our ability to maintain damage output under pressure. Tech Override is decent at that in Gunnery, but is mostly useless in the other 2 specs (1 use on a 2min cooldown? Really devs?). TO should be on a much shorter base cooldown, and IMO it wouldnt hurt to up it to 2, or even 3, base uses.

 

Or, and this is an idea I offered up a very long time ago:

 

Stock Strike has a 100% chance to proc 3 charges of "Run and Gun". Abilities with cast times will activate instantly, and consume 1 charge of "Run and Gun". "Run and Gun" lasts for 15s, or until all charges are consumed. This effect cannot occur more than once every 20s

 

It would basically give you charges of Tech Override when you used Stock Strike, which as a Mando/Merc should almost never be a primary offensive tool. It would also give a reason for Assault and Combat Medic players to actually use Stock Strike.

 

I have to disagree with "highest passive mitigation" as a whole. I understand in that you consider Vanguard and Guardians to be "Tank Classes". But shouldn't that mean that DPS Commandos should have the same passive mitigation as these two? They all fulfill the same roll and yet Vanguards and Guardians feel more "hardshell" then Commandos AS DPS (Obviously a Tank specced Guardian/Vanguard is going to be able to take more punishment).

 

Perhaps the reason for this is because those two classes are meant to close the distance being in point blank range. Commandos themselves are required to stay OUT of the fray given their over reliance on channeling and casting, not to mention most of their attacks being "Ranged" attacks in terms of damage type. However we don't have anything to keep people at range so once they close, we're locked down. This is opposite of the Gunslinger who not only can prevent closing but also once closed, they can't be locked down while in cover as they have immunity.

 

Without a higher passive mitigation, your idea would be seen as a near "Suicidal Charge" for Commandos because it would require a Commando to close the distance with someone and put them at a range that once they get off those two to three attacks, they're a dead duck. I don't know about you but threeshotting someone is defiantly imbalanced and a Commando at point blank is done for.

 

Suddenly being able to stay alive against two or three players beating on you for longer then we currently can is looking mighty necessary if this is implemented in order to survive those 20 seconds to get off another burst. Otherwise we just turn into suicidal bombers. That's not a class type I want to play.

 

I do however agree with you our biggest problem is maintaining damage under fire. I do agree that the Devs should focus on this issue first and foremost before trying to do anything with defensive ability. I for one would love to test out how being able to maintain output helps us first before we see to defensive survivability. For me this means doing away with cast times on half our abilities or severely reducing the cost on what few free of channel attacks we have. (Explosive round at 25 Cells? >.< Who's idea was that?)

Edited December 11, 2013 by TylerAcalan

[SWEtree]

More dmg while running for your life with angry maras/assassins chasing you. Im not talking about any hard hiting as our main attacks but something that hit harder than hammer shot. Now ppl gonna scream about EL Net,our dots etc. But castingtime is usually 2-90 seconds with melee knowing how to interupt/CC. We can specc so we get 2 instant skills but then your dead if you dont save it for 2 heals. Once again im NOT takling about some ****** dmg skills to spam while kiting but i want "something" forcing ppl to stop chasing me. Once my CDs are gone im dead while kiting.

Im pathetic when it gets to english and having problems explaining what i need but ppl knowing the class prolly understand me (Not BW)

[Falver]

I have to disagree with "highest passive mitigation" as a whole. I understand in that you consider Vanguard and Guardians to be "Tank Classes". But shouldn't that mean that DPS Commandos should have the same passive mitigation as these two? They all fulfill the same roll and yet Vanguards and Guardians feel more "hardshell" then Commandos AS DPS (Obviously a Tank specced Guardian/Vanguard is going to be able to take more punishment).

 

The reason for that is because of the nature of armor mitigation. Let me put it like this:

My commando has ~30% Damage Reduction via armor. This means that a hit that would do 10,000 would do 7,000. Which up to there, is normal.

My Vanguard tank, has about 52% (but lets pretend it's 50) and would take 5,000 damage from the same attack.

 

When both activate reactive shield, the Commando's DR increases to 55% and I take 4500 damage, a sizable, 36% decrease from 7000.

In comparison though, my Vanguard with reactive shield takes 75%, 2500 damage, a 50% decrease in damage.

 

The only way that a commando would take as much punishment as a vanguard tank is a raw increase in their armor rating. But, for a ranged DPS to have that much armor is honestly a little overboard because as you can see above, armor becomes increasingly useful as you get more of it.

 

Surviving on a commando isn't that tough, as people have stated above, getting locked down IS.

[klham]

Stock Strike has a 100% chance to proc 3 charges of "Run and Gun". Abilities with cast times will activate instantly, and consume 1 charge of "Run and Gun". "Run and Gun" lasts for 15s, or until all charges are consumed. This effect cannot occur more than once every 20s

 

This would solve a lot of issues and would synergize well with Hold the Line. On such a short cool down it could also really change commando gameplay were it not for existing resource constraints. So it would be a quality of life and performance improvement without turning commandos into melee wannabes diving into the mosh pit every 20 seconds to get the proc.

Edited December 13, 2013 by klham

[TylerAcalan]

The reason for that is because of the nature of armor mitigation. Let me put it like this:

My commando has ~30% Damage Reduction via armor. This means that a hit that would do 10,000 would do 7,000. Which up to there, is normal.

My Vanguard tank-

 

I need to cut you off here and explain I already understand why Tanks need higher armor rating. They're SUPPOSED to be the one taking the hits.

 

This does not help the Commando who SHOULDN'T be taking hits but granted these changes are supposed to be PvP changes for balances. Players aren't AI that can be exploited and "Forced" to attack Tanks.

 

In other words we need to push aside the Tank spec's and instead look at DPS Vanguard and Guardian compared to DPS Commando.

 

Vanguards and Guardians are required to be "In the Fray" so to speak with majority of their abilities between 10-0 meters. Reguardless of Spec. Most of their abilities are insta-cast. Second you fire it, it fires. No Time to Travel, no cast timer. Full Auto doesn't hurt Vanguards since they can just move on to the next attack and Guardian's "Master Strike" can't be interrupted. Therefore these classes never lack for damage output.

 

Damage going out means your opponent is more likely to die. Fewer opponents on the field, less damage coming in. More survivability because you're not taking as much damage because of the ABSENCE of damage. In PvE have you ever noticed how much more relaxed you become when things start dying compared to the start of an engagement because you subconsciously recognize that, to quote a famous Bioware character:

 

"Every time someone else dies, I figure my chances of Survival go up."

 

Agree or disagree?

 

Surviving on a commando isn't that tough, as people have stated above, getting locked down IS.

 

Getting locked down IS why Commandos SEEMINGLY have no survivability. Again, damage going out means your opponent is more likely to die. Fewer opponents on the field, less damage coming in.

 

You guys believe we don't need more defensive cooldowns. That's fine. I agree with you. Leave the Active/Utility stuff to the ones who wear lighter armor and need more on demand mitigation.

 

I believe we need more passives, this would give us the feel as if our heavy armor is doing the job it's designed to do and protect us while we focus on smashing someone's face in. There's already plenty of armor reduction abilities out there to cleave through heavier defenses.

 

If you don't want more passive defenses then let's go with offensive. We all agree that something needs to be done about the amount of interrupts and pushback we get.

 

Going back to the example of Vanguards and Guardians, they can maintain damage under fire because a majority of their attacks aren't cast/channeled. Ether remove casting/channeling time for half the ones that already exsist or give us a passive ignore OR high chance to ignore interrupts.

 

Reliance on active abilities no matter how short the CD is still Defenses through Utility. Something we need LESS of.

Edited December 14, 2013 by TylerAcalan

[cashogy_reborn]

Commando does not need anymore mitigation, passive or otherwise.

[TheSupaCoopa]

Duran'del here:

 

Here's my ideas.

 

Combat Medic:

-HtL can be speced for an additional 20% speed boost in the Combat Medic tree.

-Stacks of supercharge can be gained while SSC is active.

-Combat Support Cell gives 3% alacrity while active.

-10s of interrupt immunity via Diversion.

-Increase BI's healing.

-Field Triage now (when active) decreases cost of MP to 16, not 17, and increases the healing done by MP by 15%.

-SSC restores 16 ammo instead of 8.

-in addition to its current form, Frontline Medic now has this description: When trauma probe is active, all incoming damage to you and its target is decreased by 5%/10%. In addition, hammer shot now can activate trauma probes, bypassing its rate limit and for 15% more healing.

 

Gunnery:

-Grav round can no longer be interrupted.

-CoF prices should be more reliable.

-Cell generator now restores 2 ammo every 1.5s.

[TylerAcalan]

Commando does not need anymore mitigation, passive or otherwise.

 

Then remove the cast time from Charged Bolts and Grav Round and lets see what happens. Can't interrupt what doesn't have a timer and those are the two staple abilities of the DPS specs.

[Falver]

Then remove the cast time from Charged Bolts and Grav Round and lets see what happens. Can't interrupt what doesn't have a timer and those are the two staple abilities of the DPS specs.

 

Instant skills need cooldowns. If they did that, I could see them adding cast times to demo round and perhaps assault plastique.

[TylerAcalan]

Instant skills need cooldowns. If they did that, I could see them adding cast times to demo round and perhaps assault plastique.

 

Outlined in Red is the wrong answer. We have problems with being interrupted and the problem is that Commandos rely too heavily on casting with no immunity interrupt. If nobody here wants more passive midigation and we all agree we don't need more defensive abilities then the only option to deal with interrupts is make them insta-cast to remove the chance of BEING interrupted.

 

They want to throw a 2-3 second cooldown on Charged Bolts and Grav Round to account for the removed cast time maybe no one will complain. It's only a 1.5 increase from the normal Global Cooldown and it's about the same time it takes to cast the ability anyway.

[TheSupaCoopa]

Outlined in Red is the wrong answer. We have problems with being interrupted and the problem is that Commandos rely too heavily on casting with no immunity interrupt. If nobody here wants more passive midigation and we all agree we don't need more defensive abilities then the only option to deal with interrupts is make them insta-cast to remove the chance of BEING interrupted.

 

They want to throw a 2-3 second cooldown on Charged Bolts and Grav Round to account for the removed cast time maybe no one will complain. It's only a 1.5 increase from the normal Global Cooldown and it's about the same time it takes to cast the ability anyway.

 

If charged bolts got a CD, damage buff, and an instant cast, then it would be a nice addition. However, it would throw AS's rotation out if whack.