Darth Sidious the Ancient Historian

[Lednew]

Lord Darth Sidious (aka Palpatine of Naboo) re-organizes a twenty-five thousand year-old Galactic Republic into the "First Galactic Empire", thus accomplishing what generations of Sith before him were unable to do, utterly defeat the Republic.

 

But that's not the truly amazing part. Allow me to elucidate...

 

Shortly after taking power, Sidious then proceeds to convert the former Republic's military organization, rank structure, the basic starship design archetype from the tiny fighters to the great capital vessels, and even the officer's uniform styles, all to conform to that of an empire which ultimately ceased to exist more than 2000 years before he was even born.

 

Does it seem the slightest bit peculiar to anyone that our own Sith Empire is so much like Palpatine's Galactic Empire in so many subtle ways, even though they are supposed to be separated by something like three and a half millennia? Now, it's never been officially stated, but I don't think there is any other explanation. Consider;

 

Darth Sidious was actually an ancient historian, and he was likely obsessed with the our own Sith Empire and the "glory days" of his forbears, the feats of Darth Malgus, Darth Marr, and the other great lords of that bygone era, recorded on holocrons that probably will still exist in Sidious' time. By copying and supplanting so much of that old and defunct organization into the former Galactic Republic, it would be as if the Republic was truly and finally conquered by it's ancient enemy, the Sith Empire... from a certain point of view, that is.

[Kaedusz]

Lord Darth Sidious (aka Palpatine of Naboo) re-organizes a thousand year-old

Galactic Republic into the "First Galactic Empire"

Fixed .

You have more bread to eat.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Kaedusz

[AshlaBoga]

Actually Darth Sidious was quite the avid historian.

He studied pretty much every single Sith Lord who came before him, in order to not repeat their mistakes - I'd say he failed in conquering his arrogance, but dear lord did he do better than any other Sith in taking over the Galaxy.

 

The man actually rewrote the Book of the Sith and is responsible for much of the information in the Telos holocron.

 

So yeah, he studied history for thousands of hours so he could learn about his predecessors and the Jedi.

[Lednew]

Fixed .

You have more bread to eat.

 

Thanks for the additional, umm... bread? I have no idea what that means.

 

Wookiepedia:

"The Republic, which had lasted for at least 25,034 years, ended following a period of..."

 

Not a clue where they got that number, but you can bet the moisture farm that if it were wrong, someone would have come along to correct it by now...

 

Actually Darth Sidious was quite the avid historian.

 

I figured he would have to be that, but he didn't actually need to resurrect all the old... accouterments of the long dead Sith Empire, and yet he did. Why? Again, the ship designs, the uniforms, the ranks, all far too similar to "our" Sith Empire to be a mere coincidence.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Lednew

[Girdeux]

Thanks for the additional, umm... bread? I have no idea what that means.

 

Wookiepedia:

"The Republic, which had lasted for at least 25,034 years, ended following a period of..."

 

Not a clue where they got that number, but you can bet the moisture farm that if it were wrong, someone would have come along to correct it by now...

 

The lines are very blurred in the EU. the sith iirc have never ruled the galaxy in the EU before Palpatine. They only ruled a portion of it which was from Ruins empire. Movie universe is different.

 

Lucas went into some detail about the whole Palpatine line regarding "once more the sith will rule the galaxy". He stated that the "Sith Knights" was created by a fallen Jedi 2000 years before the movies. They amassed massive power and they overruled the Jedi and Republic. Thus having complete control of the galaxy for a LONG period of time.

 

Though like I said this never really happens in the EU.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Girdeux

[Euphrosyne]

I figured he would have to be that, but he didn't actually need to resurrect all the old... accouterments of the long dead Sith Empire, and yet he did. Why? Again, the ship designs, the uniforms, the ranks, all far too similar to "our" Sith Empire to be a mere coincidence.

This is a very old story.

 

Don't look at it in terms of lore. It wasn't a lore-based decision. It was a decision by BioWare to make the Sith Empire as close an analog to the Galactic Empire as possible. BW wanted people who were fans of the movies to be able to slide right into this new setting. Never mind that it makes almost no sense for the Sith Empire to be like this.

 

And you know, they succeeded at what they set out to do. That Imperial aesthetic has claimed the loyalties of a lot of diehard fanboys. I doubt very much that if this Sith Empire were more like the original Sith Empire - a weird mystical magocracy populated chiefly by Red Sith with goofy-looking technology - that it would have the kind of following it currently enjoys. It's just that the casualty of creating that following was making an utter hash of the lore.

[Selenial]

The lines are very blurred in the EU. the sith iirc have never ruled the galaxy in the EU before Palpatine. They only ruled a portion of it which was from Ruins empire. Movie universe is different.

 

Lucas went into some detail about the whole Palpatine line regarding "once more the sith will rule the galaxy". He stated that the "Sith Knights" was created by a fallen Jedi 2000 years before the movies. They amassed massive power and they overruled the Jedi and Republic. Thus having complete control of the galaxy for a LONG period of time.

 

Though like I said this never really happens in the EU.

 

It does happen in the EU.... There's Comics on it all

[Stinghen]

This is a very old story.

 

Don't look at it in terms of lore. It wasn't a lore-based decision. It was a decision by BioWare to make the Sith Empire as close an analog to the Galactic Empire as possible. BW wanted people who were fans of the movies to be able to slide right into this new setting. Never mind that it makes almost no sense for the Sith Empire to be like this.

 

And you know, they succeeded at what they set out to do. That Imperial aesthetic has claimed the loyalties of a lot of diehard fanboys. I doubt very much that if this Sith Empire were more like the original Sith Empire - a weird mystical magocracy populated chiefly by Red Sith with goofy-looking technology - that it would have the kind of following it currently enjoys. It's just that the casualty of creating that following was making an utter hash of the lore.

 

KotOR used that very same approach nine years ago. It doesn't simply pertain to the way the Republic and the Empire looks, but how they are respectively structured as well. They just don't go too deep into it on KotOR as they do on TOR, but the power structures are carbon copies of the Clone Wars and Galactic Civil War periods. It is quite a disservice to the EU continuity, because it hacks up the lore that came before, and the lore that followed (timeline-wise).

 

It does happen in the EU.... There's Comics on it all

 

Was it during the Republic Dark Age? Because whenever there was a strong enough Sith Empire, they never managed to completely overrule the Republic. According to the EU, it was never destroyed before Sidious. Which is a shame, because EU authors continue to leave empty the two-thousand year gap between the end of the Old Sith Wars and the beginning of the New Sith Wars.

[Lednew]

Don't look at it in terms of lore. It wasn't a lore-based decision. It was a decision by BioWare to make the Sith Empire as close an analog to the Galactic Empire as possible.

 

Well of course we all know that, but it's missing the point. It's a fun exercise to try to come up with a plausible explanation that fits in with the lore. We used to have great fun trying to explain away all the continuity errors in Star Trek this way. The fact that there is a real-world (like the one quoted above) reason for it was irrelevant to the challenge. The point was to come up with something that made sense, and fit the lore.

 

Now, if you want a real challenge... Come up with one to explain the similarities in the symbols. That is, the symbol of the Sith Empire, the hexagonal gear-like logo, and the symbol of the Galactic Republic some 3000 years later, also a gear-like logo only circular. The similarities are too close to be a coincidence. This was the Republic's logo long before Palpatine took power, so he could not have had anything to do with it.

[Euphrosyne]

KotOR used that very same approach nine years ago. It doesn't simply pertain to the way the Republic and the Empire looks, but how they are respectively structured as well. They just don't go too deep into it on KotOR as they do on TOR, but the power structures are carbon copies of the Clone Wars and Galactic Civil War periods. It is quite a disservice to the EU continuity, because it hacks up the lore that came before, and the lore that followed (timeline-wise).

Agreed. It's quite remarkable that we can go from the spears-and-primitive blasters combat of the Great Sith War to basically a carbon copy of Clone Wars weapons and armor (plus phrik vibroswords because reasons) in the space of forty years.

 

In The Essential Guide to Warfare, Fry tried to explain the disconnect between Tales of the Jedi technology and KotOR/SWTOR technology by invoking the frontier - that the Great Hyperspace War and the Great Sith War were fought with weapons that could be produced on low-population colony worlds far from the industrialized Core. It's not a bad construction, and it's certainly the best explanation that I can think of for something like that, but it still doesn't really fly. The Great Hyperspace War wasn't a frontier clash, it was an invasion directly into the heart of the Core. Sith fleets attacked Koros, Coruscant, Foerost, and other key Core Worlds. Same with the Great Sith War. Sigh.

 

I don't know if it's reasonable to blame Karp for this mess, but it's become sort of my default position.

Well of course we all know that, but it's missing the point. It's a fun exercise to try to come up with a plausible explanation that fits in with the lore. We used to have great fun trying to explain away all the continuity errors in Star Trek this way. The fact that there is a real-world (like the one quoted above) reason for it was irrelevant to the challenge. The point was to come up with something that made sense, and fit the lore.

 

Now, if you want a real challenge... Come up with one to explain the similarities in the symbols. That is, the symbol of the Sith Empire, the hexagonal gear-like logo, and the symbol of the Galactic Republic some 3000 years later, also a gear-like logo only circular. The similarities are too close to be a coincidence. This was the Republic's logo long before Palpatine took power, so he could not have had anything to do with it.

Unfortunately, we don't "all know that", because this subforum is inundated with threads in which the OPs ask about why the Sith Empire and the Galactic Empire are so similar. And you can see people with a similar lack of knowledge in this thread. It is what it is.

 

I understand the desire to come up with plausible lore-coherent explanations for things that the likes of Leland Chee, Ryder Windham, Jason Fry, et al. haven't hashed out yet. I do it all the time with military stuff. Operations are fun! But in some circumstances explaining something that is already preposterous is unlikely to make it any easier to swallow. An example: a lot of the Imperial partisans active in Story and Lore a few months back thought that the best explanation of these issues of symbolism, heraldry, uniforms, and terminology was to claim that the Sith Empire won the current war with the Republic and then somehow reformed into the Republic. Or something. Like I said, preposterous. In order to correct a relatively minor disparity between different sources for lore, they introduced a massive disparity that doesn't even make sense. This is the sort of pitfall that these efforts fall into all the time.

 

Anyway, symbolism common to both Sith Empire and Galactic Empire isn't that interesting. Symbols are reused in loads of different context all the time without that much reference to their original meaning. It's not like there's a common ideological well from which the Makedones Argeadai, the Yamato, the Qazaq, the Khryllians, the Republic of Argentina, and the Australian aboriginal community drew, even though they all used/use the sunburst as their primary icon. A more well-known example would be the use of the Hindu swastika as the icon of the German Hitlerites. You don't need to bring in Sidious' classicizing tendencies (tendencies that were on display, fwiw, in several EU sources, including Jedi vs. Sith) to account for the use of similar symbols.

Was it during the Republic Dark Age? Because whenever there was a strong enough Sith Empire, they never managed to completely overrule the Republic. According to the EU, it was never destroyed before Sidious. Which is a shame, because EU authors continue to leave empty the two-thousand year gap between the end of the Old Sith Wars and the beginning of the New Sith Wars.

I think that the comics that she had in mind were the Knight Errant series, which take place about a generation before Ruusan. They don't reeeeaaaalllly qualify.

 

There are still basically no sources specifically about Phanius/Darth Ruin and the empire he created.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Euphrosyne

[JMCA]

This is a very old story.

 

Don't look at it in terms of lore. It wasn't a lore-based decision. It was a decision by BioWare to make the Sith Empire as close an analog to the Galactic Empire as possible. BW wanted people who were fans of the movies to be able to slide right into this new setting. Never mind that it makes almost no sense for the Sith Empire to be like this.

 

And you know, they succeeded at what they set out to do. That Imperial aesthetic has claimed the loyalties of a lot of diehard fanboys. I doubt very much that if this Sith Empire were more like the original Sith Empire - a weird mystical magocracy populated chiefly by Red Sith with goofy-looking technology - that it would have the kind of following it currently enjoys. It's just that the casualty of creating that following was making an utter hash of the lore.

 

I agree and disagree.

 

I think humanity's role in this Sith Empire made its mark with the much stronger influence of technology and even the shaping of the Sith into a governing entity instead of a magocracy. Whether they would admit it or not you see a "Republicization" of the Empire with their focus on technology, the Dark Council, Ministries, and approaching Mandalorians, the Hutts, and the Chiss as allies.

 

The civilization you mentioned were very insular and were not interested in a powerful non-Force User military, and certainly didn't care for alliances. They sniff around in SWTOR, but they are certainly not the absolute rulers they used to be.

 

I think it's plausible, despite the obvious familiarity that BW wanted people to have with the Empire with the same accents, officer uniforms, because this civilization was more influenced by humanity and, thus, the military became more powerful than in previous strictly Force-driven Sith Empires

[Euphrosyne]

I agree and disagree.

 

I think humanity's role in this Sith Empire made its mark with the much stronger influence of technology and even the shaping of the Sith into a governing entity instead of a magocracy. Whether they would admit it or not you see a "Republicization" of the Empire with their focus on technology, the Dark Council, Ministries, and approaching Mandalorians, the Hutts, and the Chiss as allies.

 

The civilization you mentioned were very insular and were not interested in a powerful non-Force User military, and certainly didn't care for alliances. They sniff around in SWTOR, but they are certainly not the absolute rulers they used to be.

 

I think it's plausible, despite the obvious familiarity that BW wanted people to have with the Empire with the same accents, officer uniforms, because this civilization was more influenced by humanity and, thus, the military became more powerful than in previous strictly Force-driven Sith Empires

The problem with that is that the shift from a completely Red Sith society to one in which Red Sith are few and far between while Human High Culture reigns over a mostly-human populace is itself made implausible by the rest of the EU's lore. I don't question that the change from the Tales of the Jedi Sith Empire to the SWTOR Sith Empire happened; it clearly did, and BioWare tried to explain how it happened with the galactic history videos released before launch. The problem was that, in terms of lore, those videos were Band-Aids placed over severe lacerations. They explained how this change occurred, but in an intrinsically ridiculous way.

[Stinghen]

The civilization you mentioned were very insular and were not interested in a powerful non-Force User military, and certainly didn't care for alliances. They sniff around in SWTOR, but they are certainly not the absolute rulers they used to be.

 

That statement does not make any sense. To suggest that the Sith Lords are only marginally important in Vitiate's Empire is to say Vader (and Palpatine!) were minor players in the Galactic Empire. The Sith were in control of everything. Wherever there was a military operation, there was one Sith Lord (or more) and his powerbase in charge. They sat at the heads of the military and of the intelligence services both, and pulled all strings as they saw fit.

 

And though the Red Sith were few and far between, as HK-47 states, 97-such percent of the Empire's population was comprised of Sith-blooded humans. For the reasons Euphrosyne stated, such a heavy presence of humans cannot be reasonably explained, especially given the fact that Vitiate took his empire into hiding as soon as the Great Hyperspace War ended. But that's beside the point. The point is that the Sith Lords were still the absolute masters that they were back in the days of the old Sith Empire. The only difference is that, instead of lording over scores of non-Force sensitive Massassi warriors, they presided over masses of non-Force-sensitive humans instead.

 

I think it's plausible, despite the obvious familiarity that BW wanted people to have with the Empire with the same accents, officer uniforms, because this civilization was more influenced by humanity and, thus, the military became more powerful than in previous strictly Force-driven Sith Empires

 

This is precisely the missing link in Vitiate's Empire. Where the hell did these humans come from, if Vitiate led the True Sith into hiding 1300 years before, and did not come into contact with the outside for this entire period? The only outside contact they had was through spies they might have had at certain places, but that can't explain the human presence at all. And, for the same reasons I stated above, the only thing Vitiate allowed for is for the military to be more effective than it might otherwise have been in the days of Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow, but they were still completely subservient to the true masters in the Empire.

[StarMagus]

Lord Darth Sidious (aka Palpatine of Naboo) re-organizes a twenty-five thousand year-old Galactic Republic into the "First Galactic Empire", thus accomplishing what generations of Sith before him were unable to do, utterly defeat the Republic.

 

But that's not the truly amazing part. Allow me to elucidate...

 

Shortly after taking power, Sidious then proceeds to convert the former Republic's military organization, rank structure, the basic starship design archetype from the tiny fighters to the great capital vessels, and even the officer's uniform styles, all to conform to that of an empire which ultimately ceased to exist more than 2000 years before he was even born.

 

Does it seem the slightest bit peculiar to anyone that our own Sith Empire is so much like Palpatine's Galactic Empire in so many subtle ways, even though they are supposed to be separated by something like three and a half millennia? Now, it's never been officially stated, but I don't think there is any other explanation. Consider;

 

Darth Sidious was actually an ancient historian, and he was likely obsessed with the our own Sith Empire and the "glory days" of his forbears, the feats of Darth Malgus, Darth Marr, and the other great lords of that bygone era, recorded on holocrons that probably will still exist in Sidious' time. By copying and supplanting so much of that old and defunct organization into the former Galactic Republic, it would be as if the Republic was truly and finally conquered by it's ancient enemy, the Sith Empire... from a certain point of view, that is.

 

Which he ruled for less than 20 years before being chucked down a bottomless pit. Compared to other Sith Rulers he was a total failure.

[Stinghen]

Which he ruled for less than 20 years before being chucked down a bottomless pit. Compared to other Sith Rulers he was a total failure.

 

Are you for real? He was the only Sith ruler to conquer the hated enemies of the Sith - Jedi and Republic alike. His failure was due to the fact that he did not know of Vader's weak link to his past, that is, his own son Luke. And even in the end, if Luke hadn't turned away from the Dark Side, he would've ruled until he died. Or beyond. Darth Sidious was the only succesful Sith Lord, all others failed where he succeeded.

[StarMagus]

Are you for real? He was the only Sith ruler to conquer the hated enemies of the Sith - Jedi and Republic alike. His failure was due to the fact that he did not know of Vader's weak link to his past, that is, his own son Luke. And even in the end, if Luke hadn't turned away from the Dark Side, he would've ruled until he died. Or beyond. Darth Sidious was the only succesful Sith Lord, all others failed where he succeeded.

 

Yes I'm for real, his "rule" consisted of having to watch out for the Senate until the last couple of years ((he doesn't actually manage to get them dissolved until right before the first movie)) and constant rebellion and strife. He never actually manages to completely lock down his power. His greatest 2 technical marvels The Death Stars, get blown up by a small group of rebels before he actually manages to pay them off. The first doesn't even get to fire it's main weapon more than once!

 

 

He also doesn't have much luck with the 2nd one...

 

 

The Emp from SWTOR doesn't rule the entire galaxy ((which Palps doesn't either because the Galaxy is constantly in a state of war rebellion)) but he actually manages to be on the throne for thousands of years.

 

As a side, how did the Emp no know of Vader's link to Luke?

 

"Huh, the Son of Skywalker must not be allowed to become a Jedi. Wait a second, my Dark Lord of the Sith was a Skywalker before he became Vader, and his love for his wife was what I used to corrupt him... nah.. I can't imagine anything about this plan going wrong."

 

I mean his entire plan counted on the fact that Vader wouldn't care at all about his child, which seems to be a fairly risky move all things considered for somebody who is being pumped up as this great military planner.

Edited October 31, 2013 by StarMagus

[Stinghen]

Yes I'm for real, his "rule" consisted of having to watch out for the Senate until the last couple of years ((he doesn't actually manage to get them dissolved until right before the first movie)) and constant rebellion and strife. He never actually manages to completely lock down his power. His greatest 2 technical marvels The Death Stars, get blown up by a small group of rebels before he actually manages to pay them off. The first doesn't even get to fire it's main weapon more than once!

 

 

He also doesn't have much luck with the 2nd one...

 

 

The Emp from SWTOR doesn't rule the entire galaxy ((which Palps doesn't either because the Galaxy is constantly in a state of war rebellion)) but he actually manages to be on the throne for thousands of years.

 

That's rich. You cite the Robot Chicken as lore source? Here's a little bit of a lore source for you: Darth Sidious was the single most powerful Sith Lord in existance. He didn't live for a thousand years, but that's because true Star Wars shouldn't be committed to dumb overpowered effects to be cool. So, even though Vitiate was "immortal" (he could still be killed, and he was put into a state of catatonia due to the actions of a single individual, the Hero of Tython), the small lore detail of Darth Sidious' mastery remains unchanged. Darth Sidious wasn't found wanting when he must put forth his own power in order to seal his conquest of the galaxy, which is something every other Sith Lord never achieved. Naga Sadow (after his defeats at his meditation sphere and Korriban), Exar Kun (at Yavin IV), Darth Revan (when Malak betrayed him), Darth Malak (at the Star Forge), Darth Traya (at Malachor V), Darth Ruin (eventually he too died), and Skerre Kaan (at Ruusan). Then along came Darth Bane, and a thousand years later, the appex of Bane's teachings, in the form of Darth Sidious, conquered both the Republic and the Jedi, with wit and personal power.

 

Just because you did not see Vitiate die yet, doesn't mean he won't fail. We all know he will, and it won't be long in coming. Get over your fanboyism, because it is misplaced.

[Euphrosyne]

Which he ruled for less than 20 years before being chucked down a bottomless pit. Compared to other Sith Rulers he was a total failure.

More than twenty years. The Galactic Empire was established about nineteen years before the Battle of Yavin, and Palpatine's death at Endor took place four years after the Battle of Yavin. Still not that long, though.

 

But, you know, Alexander's Empire didn't last very long, either, yet few people would disagree that he was one of the most skilled military leaders in human history. Same with Napoleon's. Palpatine almost single-handedly destroyed a twenty-five thousand year old galactic government and created a personal monarchy in its place. You don't manage to accomplish something like that without a tremendous amount of skill.

 

Failure is, of course, in the eyes of the beholder. But I think that Palpatine went farther than any other Sith before him. At least he successfully conquered the galaxy and virtually destroyed the Jedi Order for a time. No one else even came close. If that is failure, well, the other Sith Lords were worse failures.

[StarMagus]

Just because you did not see Vitiate die yet, doesn't mean he won't fail. We all know he will, and it won't be long in coming. Get over your fanboyism, because it is misplaced.

 

Fanboyism? I'm not a fan of any of the Sith rulers, the fanboyism is saying that Palps was the greatest sith lord ever when he gambled everything on a Father being willing to Kill his own son and clearly had no back up plan if that failed.

 

That and failing to follow basic OSHA guidelines about not putting bottomless pits in your throne room.

 

More than twenty years. The Galactic Empire was established about nineteen years before the Battle of Yavin, and Palpatine's death at Endor took place four years after the Battle of Yavin. Still not that long, though.

 

Ooops.. he "ruled" for about 24 years, my mistake. I thought Luke was younger in the first movie. He was in fact 19. so I was off a few years.

 

That's rich. You cite the Robot Chicken as lore source?

 

Hey it seems as much a part of the EU as the later stuff that turns Luke into an Anime super speed 20+ attacks a second character.

 

That said when somebody is listing Robot Chicken as a source they clearly aren't being fully serious.

 

But, you know, Alexander's Empire didn't last very long, either, yet few people would disagree that he was one of the most skilled military leaders in human history.

 

Skilled military leader, yes. Skilled ruler capable of building something that would last? No.

Edited October 31, 2013 by StarMagus

[Stinghen]

Fanboyism? I'm not a fan of any of the Sith rulers, the fanboyism is saying that Palps was the greatest sith lord ever when he gambled everything on a Father being willing to Kill his own son and clearly had no back up plan if that failed.

 

That and failing to follow basic OSHA guidelines about not putting bottomless pits in your throne room.

 

I counter your argument with an excerpt from the Wookieepedia on Darth Sidious. You may bark at it being from wookieepedia, but it is amply sourced, so unless you can disprove the claims by consulting the sourced references, your complaint would be invalid.

 

Trained to perfection by Darth Plagueis, Darth Sidious was considered by many, including Vader[162][182] and Luke Skywalker,[162] to be the most powerful Sith Lord in the entire history of the Sith Order—something he himself firmly believed.[1][23] His status as such had also been documented within the the second edition of an important historical chronicle.[26] Additionally, he was the only Sith Lord in a thousand years to achieve the ultimate goal of the Sith: to eradicate the Jedi Order and bring the galaxy under the rule of the Sith.[23] He was also considered the one Force user to have successfully tamed the Dark Side of the Force, exceeding even that of Ulic Qel-Droma.[154]

 

[1] Darth Plagueis

[23] Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith novelization

[26] The New Essential Chronology

[154] Dark Empire Sourcebook

[162] Dark Empire endnotes

[182] Vader, the Ultimate Guide

 

If he knew Padmé actually delivered the children, don't you think the Emperor's Hands would be after them... say... when they were in their teens? He could even abduct them, and train them as Vader's replacement. The fact of the matter is he did not know, so he could not act on it until it was too late. That is a credit to Obi-wan's and Yoda's wisdom rather than Sidious' faults.

 

Hey it seems as much a part of the EU as the later stuff that turns Luke into an Anime super speed 20+ attacks a second character.

 

It is not as much a part of the EU as anything else, its a spoof intended to push some jokes on the "serious" Star Wars films.

 

That said when somebody is listing Robot Chicken as a source they clearly aren't being fully serious.

 

Then why bother making a case of citing it as an argument?

 

Skilled military leader, yes. Skilled ruler capable of building something that would last? No.

 

He didn't build something that would last? The Empire lost much of its power after Palpatine died, but it survived long after he was gone. Ever heard of the Imperial Remnant? They were on equal grounds with the Rebels right after Palpatine's death. After that, the war raged on, until the Alliance pushed to the core. And still, the Remnant remained (pun intended), until it was reformed into the Fel Empire. So... yeah. Palpatine's death was not the end of his work, and though its legacy was not what the Sith Lord intended it to be, still it outlived him.

 

And the final point is this. Every Sith Lord that preceded Sidious had failed at precisely the same moment - when they must exert their personal power in order to ensure their success, they failed, and were destroyed. Darth Sidious went through to the end, it doesn't matter that he and his order had spent a long time preparing the grounds, it only matters that all would have failed if Yoda would succeed in killing him at the battle in the Senate rotunda. WHich places Palpatine above every other Sith Lord that preceded him.

[StarMagus]

In the 2nd movie he talks about Luke being the "son of Skywalker" he clearly knew about them before the 3rd movie.

 

 

 

Then why bother making a case of citing it as an argument?

 

Because I'm having fun, which is why I started off the entire line by making fun of the fact that the most powerful sith ever died because he got tossed down a bottomless pit that he had in his throne room despite OSHA warnings. For all of his planning and vision he did not see that coming.

 

Trained to perfection by Darth Plagueis, Darth Sidious was considered by many, including Vader[162][182] and Luke Skywalker,[162

 

I'm not saying they are wrong, but I see this as much the same way you hear announcers always calling every good game one of the best ever! It's not like Vader and Luke knew any of the Sith lords from history. Sort of like "was Shaq a better center than Wilt, Kareem, or Russel?" Hey look, people who are younger vote for Shaq over the other 4....

Edited October 31, 2013 by StarMagus

[Stinghen]

In the 2nd movie he talks about Luke being the "son of Skywalker" he clearly knew about them before the 3rd movie.

 

By then it was already too late, and Palpatine took the course of action most likely to succeed - corrupting the young Luke. And he knew nothing of Leia anyways.

 

Because I'm having fun, which is why I started off the entire line by making fun of the fact that the most powerful sith ever died because he got tossed down a bottomless pit that he had in his throne room despite OSHA warnings. For all of his planning and vision he did not see that coming.

 

He foresaw the Rebel attempt at Endor, and sought to entrap them. All then depended on Luke falling to the Dark Side. Since he did not, because by then his training as a Jedi was already complete, then Palpatine failed. But he damn well near succeeded.

 

I'm not saying they are wrong, but I see this as much the same way you hear announcers always calling every good game one of the best ever! It's not like Vader and Luke knew any of the Sith lords from history. Sort of like "was Shaq a better center than Wilt, Kareem, or Russel?" Hey look, people who are younger vote for Shaq over the other 4....

 

Vader and Luke didn't know much of past Sith Lords, but the historians who wrote the New Essencial Chronology (the in-universe book) did, and they credited Sidious as the greatest

[StarMagus]

Which suggests a real lack of power on the part of the sith. He was the greatest and he got taken out basically by his 1/2 dead apprentice who was chopped up after a battle, and even when fully healthy and not a robot got sliced to ribbons by an in his prime Old Ben in a fair fight.

 

For somebody who had as much power as people claim Palps to have, he certainly didn't use any of it to save himself from the plunge. We've witnessed other Jedi in the stories stop themselves from falling down a shaft, heck even Darth Maul was cut in half and survived falling down a tube of death. In fact as he got hurled down the shaft the only thing he seemed to be able to do was continue to spark like a human firework. Simply grabbing something with the force and pulling it to him would have been enough, and we've watched other Jedi and Sith do things like that in the movies.

 

 

I count 6 plus seconds of him doing nothing but sparking as he's picked up and carried over to the edge of the pit and tossed in. The most powerful Sith lord ever and for 6 seconds there is nothing he can do.

 

Maybe he was surprised, sure... but 6 seconds of being surprised and unable to react in a combat situation is sucky even for a common solider, much less somebody who is the "Most Powerful Sith Evah." Heck even Han Solo reacts to ambushes faster.

Edited October 31, 2013 by StarMagus

[Aurbere]

Which he ruled for less than 20 years before being chucked down a bottomless pit. Compared to other Sith Rulers he was a total failure.

 

He destroyed the Jedi Order (an Order which, at this point, had become so powerful that straight up war between Sith and Jedi would have easily fallen in their favor, thus making destroying them from the inside the only way to do it) and the Republic. No other Sith has done that. Not Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, or Vitiate.

 

Unlike all those who came before him, Darth Sidious accomplished every single goal of the Sith Order. He destroyed the Jedi, destroyed the Republic, achieved immortality, and completely mastered the dark side.

 

Compared to him, all other Sith rulers are simply pale imitations of his might.

 

Everyone goes on about how his rule only lasted a few decades, yet they conveniently forget what he actually did before forming the Empire. Not only that, but his Empire was a Galactic Empire. All other Sith Empires that came before him did not rule the galaxy, only small quarters of the galaxy, at best half of the galaxy.

[AshlaBoga]

He destroyed the Jedi Order (an Order which, at this point, had become so powerful that straight up war between Sith and Jedi would have easily fallen in their favor, thus making destroying them from the inside the only way to do it) and the Republic. No other Sith has done that. Not Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, or Vitiate.

 

Unlike all those who came before him, Darth Sidious accomplished every single goal of the Sith Order. He destroyed the Jedi, destroyed the Republic, achieved immortality, and completely mastered the dark side.

 

Everyone goes on about how his rule only lasted a few decades, yet they conveniently forget what he actually did before forming the Empire. Not only that, but his Empire was a Galactic Empire. All other Sith Empires that came before him did not rule the galaxy, only small quarters of the galaxy, at best half of the galaxy.

 

Yeah,

 

He took over the Galactic Republic and used it again the Jedi Order. He killed (in the movies) all but two Jedi out of over 10,000 Jedi. He remade a government millenia old in his image.