Marauder Changes - Game Update 2.5

[Stippling]

We had 3 Marauders, 1 Sniper, 1 Operative (all DPS) 1 operative and 1 merc (Healers) 1 PT and 1 Sin (Tanks) For 8m Op IX SM. We got the first 2 down with 1 Bloodthirst and then the adds burnt us to a crisp. that's the scenario.

 

If you can't down story mode operator with 9 people, maybe your problem is you have it set to 16 man?

[kennethdale]

If you can't down story mode operator with 9 people, maybe your problem is you have it set to 16 man?

 

Even so...in 69 comms gear a set group should be able to 8 man it.

 

As for all those QQing about how the BT debuff will make it so marauders lose raid spots, you're all troll right? I mean when other classes were claiming that snipers/maras were being/needed to be stacked all of the top guilds responded by LOLing and not doing that. Any half decent raid group will bring the best players available for each role (possibly pushing for more ranged DPS over melee simply because mechanics tend to favor ranged) . I don't know of any guild that would look at say a Sin DPS who is pretty good but who also happens to have a Mara alt and force them to change simply for the extra bt. One of the (very) few things SWtOR did right is to make each class decently viable so as to eliminate stacking of certain classes (for example, at the end of BC in WoW you needed a few Shamans for their Bloodlusts, you needed at least one Shadow Priest for the mana regen, you needed Holy Priests for their Circle of Win, you needed a Holy Paladin for tank healing etc). If you're getting excluded its either because you're just not good enough or you're playing with some serious baddies.

[MrRuck]

Between Undying Rage being heavily nerfed & Vengeance gaining our snare, perhaps Carnage can finally see 2.0's 70% nerf to the Force Scream proc undone? It was never acknowledged or explained. Edited October 20, 2013 by MrRuck

[g_land]

5 minutes is WAY to long. No DCD in the game is that long and there is nothing reasonable about that. Making it 2 minutes is plenty long enough. The additional change to how the health drop works is completely unnecessary and just kills the abilities purpose.

 

What are you talking about? Are you confusing the debuff applied by inspiration with the cd of GbtF? Inspiration is an offensive CD on a five minute cd, the new ops and this change is the devs having a kneejerk reaction to the fact that most bosses in 2.0 have been killed with dps specific heavy raid groups rather than including a lot of utility (aka heavy use of cleanses in new raids). GbtF merely is increased to a 2min and some cd depending on spec and the health penalty hits at end of ability meaning a little more care taken with its use.

[Raansu]

What are you talking about? Are you confusing the debuff applied by inspiration with the cd of GbtF? Inspiration is an offensive CD on a five minute cd, the new ops and this change is the devs having a kneejerk reaction to the fact that most bosses in 2.0 have been killed with dps specific heavy raid groups rather than including a lot of utility (aka heavy use of cleanses in new raids). GbtF merely is increased to a 2min and some cd depending on spec and the health penalty hits at end of ability meaning a little more care taken with its use.

 

I'm not confusing anything. Go back and read the post above what you just quoted and then proceed to feel ignorant for not reading other posts.

[g_land]

My question was perfectly reasonable seeing as how you said DCD which is Defensive Cooldown. I did misread the previous post; however no need to be snippy about it. Edited October 20, 2013 by g_land

[Raansu]

My question was perfectly reasonable seeing as how you said DCD which is Defensive Cooldown.

 

WOW clearly you didn't bother to read the quote above my post to figure out what exactly I was responding to, so here it is again just for your lazy *** (I'll make it nice big text to make it easier for you to read).

 

undying rage/guarded by the force is a major oh **** button and this is just gonna make healers have to work even harder now, first topping them up after a massive nasty hit, then again after the health cost goes off, a more reasonable idea would have been to give that ability a 5 minute cooldown or something, I dunno.

 

I'm not confusing anything, you just fail to read the quotes and just read my response without any context.

[g_land]

Now you are just being the most polite person in the world when someone else is clearly confused and they were asking a question. Also, my point about the change of raid composition requirements is perfectly valid.

[ArchangelLBC]

I'm not confusing anything. Go back and read the post above what you just quoted and then proceed to feel ignorant for not reading other posts.

 

You think GbtF is suddenly a useless ability in PVE with these changes and he's the ignorant one?

[Raansu]

You think GbtF is suddenly a useless ability in PVE with these changes and he's the ignorant one?

 

The only people who are ok with that change are the trash who didn't know how to deal with it in pvp. Anyone who has even the slightest clue about raiding knows that this change will make that ability a negative aspect in a raid and raid leaders will not allow sentinels to use it unless the boss is near dead.

[ArchangelLBC]

The only people who are ok with that change are the trash who didn't know how to deal with it in pvp. Anyone who has even the slightest clue about raiding knows that this change will make that ability a negative aspect in a raid and raid leaders will not allow sentinels to use it unless the boss is near dead.

 

Or when there's a high damage mechanic that needs cheesing that you can send a sentinel to deal with like lightning balls on Brontes.

 

What's funny is you suggested:

 

It would of been better to put a healing percentage decrease on it or no healing in general till it ends..

 

Which, you realize no healing in general till it ends is functionally the same as what they actually did.

 

Not saying the change is wonderful or anything, but it's not nearly as bad as you make out.

 

For that matter anyone who suddenly thinks that they'll lose their raid spot as the "Second marauder" are either similarly overreacting or didn't deserve their raid spot in the first place.

[Emperor-Norton]

For that matter anyone who suddenly thinks that they'll lose their raid spot as the "Second marauder" are either similarly overreacting or didn't deserve their raid spot in the first place.

This sums up just about everything I have to say in the Sentinel and Marauder thread.

[Raansu]

Which, you realize no healing in general till it ends is functionally the same as what they actually did.

 

No it isn't because at least at that point when the healer see's 0's he knows to stop casting (or if BW had half a brain they would code it so your casts would be greyed out if you were targeting a marauder with UR up so you don't waste any resources on them). With the planned change a healer will end up wasting resources healing them because they just immediately lose it (which is the same reason I think endure pain for juggs is an idiotic CD.)

 

Losing hp after an ability ends is a terrible design.

[TFSJaBooty]

I don't know what maras you run with but I always announce to my healers when I'm popping UR so they can top me off. With the changes all I have to change is telling them not to heal me until its over so virtually nothing will change in an organized group. PUGs however will take time for everyone to adjust to the changes but I don't expect it to be an issue for long.

[ArchangelLBC]

No it isn't because at least at that point when the healer see's 0's he knows to stop casting (or if BW had half a brain they would code it so your casts would be greyed out if you were targeting a marauder with UR up so you don't waste any resources on them). With the planned change a healer will end up wasting resources healing them because they just immediately lose it (which is the same reason I think endure pain for juggs is an idiotic CD.)

 

Losing hp after an ability ends is a terrible design.

 

Yes and no. 4 seconds, you're talking about 1 wasted heal over getting zeroes instead. Also if you're using it as a last ditch life saving mechanic then you can use it, they can heal you enough that when the health loss hits you'll be out of danger, then heal you up again. Also, and much more importantly

 

I don't know what maras you run with but I always announce to my healers when I'm popping UR so they can top me off. With the changes all I have to change is telling them not to heal me until its over so virtually nothing will change in an organized group. PUGs however will take time for everyone to adjust to the changes but I don't expect it to be an issue for long.

 

What he said.

Edited October 20, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[Aalya_Ardinn]

I am not being brought along for one buff. That's silly. Goodness, who'd think that?

 

I am bring brought along for the logical reasons like being able to play my class, knowing the fights, following the raid leads and so on.

 

However. Gear being equal, there is a gap in DPS between a melee and a ranged character. BT is a tool in my kit that allows me to close that gap. The underlying problem is still that all DPS should be equal in practice and we are not. The ranged don't always get the benefit of BT because of positioning and how you arrange your groups so saying "gee it buffs everyone" doesn't really fly. But the melee (who need it most) does benefit the vast majority of the time and I certainly get the benefit, so my DPS is better, which benefits the raid. it's a thing we use to get closer to what our maximum possible damage output is. yeah it's a bandaid on what I perceive is the real issue, but it will no longer be as effective a tool.

 

(I think that BT should have had a "Sated" style debuff from the beginning if this is how they intended it to work. It's a thing that had a solution, why change it after a year without addressing the underlying issues? )

[Lecaja]

With the exception of one buff we are actually being powered up a bit. I hardly call this a Nerf especially since the buff in question is only useful in PVP and Operations other than that it way too long to be usefully as most battles last less than ten seconds if you are geared up.

[ArchangelLBC]

I am not being brought along for one buff. That's silly. Goodness, who'd think that?

 

I am bring brought along for the logical reasons like being able to play my class, knowing the fights, following the raid leads and so on.

 

However. Gear being equal, there is a gap in DPS between a melee and a ranged character. BT is a tool in my kit that allows me to close that gap. The underlying problem is still that all DPS should be equal in practice and we are not. The ranged don't always get the benefit of BT because of positioning and how you arrange your groups so saying "gee it buffs everyone" doesn't really fly. But the melee (who need it most) does benefit the vast majority of the time and I certainly get the benefit, so my DPS is better, which benefits the raid. it's a thing we use to get closer to what our maximum possible damage output is. yeah it's a bandaid on what I perceive is the real issue, but it will no longer be as effective a tool.

 

(I think that BT should have had a "Sated" style debuff from the beginning if this is how they intended it to work. It's a thing that had a solution, why change it after a year without addressing the underlying issues? )

 

Any raid leader worth his salt is making sure all DPS get it in 8 man, and the most powerful DPS get it in 16 man. What I like about the change is that now everyone WILL get it, which is definitely a good thing.

 

The real problem is that BW isn't really incentivizing other melee DPS at all. Their utility isn't very rarely as good as that greatest utility, ranged DPS.

 

Seriously though, are you as a sentinel complaining about not having equal DPS? Because sents are absolutely top tier...

[Helmholtzz]

However. Gear being equal, there is a gap in DPS between a melee and a ranged character. BT is a tool in my kit that allows me to close that gap.

 

Correct me if I am wrong. Do you mean to say ranged dps is doing more damage than melee? If that is the case, there is something wrong with the melee dps you play with.

[Helmholtzz]

I agree with most of the people here. 5 minutes is too long a duration for BT lock out. I think anything between 2 to 3 minutes will be perfect. That said, if you are being brought into a raid group just because of BT, there is something very wrong with your dps rotation or your raid leader needs to learn some facts. Marauders are THE BEST dps class in the game. So you should be brought into a raid just because you can do higher damage than other classes.

 

To clarify the changes to UR, assuming a mara uses UR with 10% health. Right now his hp will immediately drop to 5% and then the healer can heal him back up. With the change the hp will stay at 10%. Lets assume the healer heals the mara up to 40% during UR. When UR ends the mara will lose hp and go back down to 20%. This makes UR less useful in PvE but only slightly. UR is only used when you see an incoming attack that will kill you (terminate in NiM S&V for example). You pop UR. Your main goal is to survive that attack. Given your tank is alive you will not take any other damage except for that one huge hit. So this does not change things that much. Healers need to wait for UR to fade then you can heal the mara back up. So I dont think UR will be absolutely useless. It will still serve its original purpose, it will let you live through attacks that will absolutely kill you otherwise.

[oofalong]

​Re: Changes to Bloodthirst & Inspiration

 

• Bloodthirst/Inspiration now affects your entire Operation group up to 40 meters away from the Marauder (up from 30 meters) but also applies a debuff which lasts for five minutes on all affected group members. This debuff prevents affected players from regaining Bloodthirst/Inspiration while it is active.
  

 

I believe the intent is to not offer further benefit to groups with multiple Marauders/Sentinels. Said another way, it incentivizes groups to consider other DPS classes. Considering the current state of other classes, particularly other melee DPS, as well as the challenges facing melee characters in the current PvE content, I fear this change will only further standardize the typical raid group as one Marauder/Sentinel and three ranged DPS, most likely Snipers/Gunslingers. I do not believe this is your intent, nor do I believe it is what the community wants.

 

As Marauder/Sentinel is a pure DPS class I find this change unattractive. Let me expand on several of the aspects of this change:

 

Inconsistent Utility

Class utility was a theme throughout many of the Class Rep's questions, and BioWare responded - most notably in the Sorcerer and Mercenary answers - that class balance considers overall utility including the ability for DPS specs to heal and cleanse/purge. Presumably, this also includes the ability for DPS spec'ed Assassins/Shadows, Juggernauts/Guardians and Powertech/Vanguards to taunt and tank for brief periods of time.

 

 

1. Comparing to the dual-role classes, six out of eight ACs able to fulfill their DPS responsibilities while also providing coverage for healers and tanks. And, no changes are being introduced to mitigate this utility. Thus, for each AC their cross-role ability enhances their DPS utility, and it is not minimized or affected by the presence of another of the same AC. For example, a DPS Mercenary/Commando can use Cure/Field Aid with no adverse impact to themselves, their healers or any other DPS-spec AC that has a similar ability. Or, a DPS Assassin/Shadow can taunt and use defensive cooldowns without impacting the tank's ability to taunt back nor does it prevent another Assassin/Shadow or any other ACs with a taunt from doing the same thing. Thus, no other AC has their utility impacted by the presence of another of the same AC regardless of spec. However, the planned change to Bloodthirst/Inspiration will absolutely reduce the utility of every Marauder/Sentinel beyond the first.
    
   (As an aside, the examples I outlined can and do happen with much greater frequency than multiple Bloodthirsts/Inspirations as it has a 5m CD while the other AC's utility ability CDs are much shorter. The planned changes would exacerbate this.)
    
    
   
2. Comparing within the pure damage classes, Snipers/Gunslingers have group-wide damage reduction via Ballistic Shield/Scrambling Field. This ability already has a shorter CD than Bloodthirst/Inspiration, and it does not require any special resource to activate. Plus, there are no limitations on this ability's utility based on the number of Snipers/Gunslingers present. In an extreme example a group with 4 Snipers/Gunslingers would be able to have group-wide damage reduction 80s out of every 180s or ~45% of the time.
   

 

Indifference to Group Size

I believe most 8m groups are currently divided such that Group 1 is tanks and healers while Group 2 is DPS. Thus, the current limitation of Bloodthirst/Inspiration to your immediate group is not really an issue as it is most important for other DPS to get the buff. Occasionally fight mechanics require balanced groups: a tank, healer and 2 DPS. In some of these situations the 30m range (or even planned 40m) is not sufficient to allow the entire Operations group to benefit from the buff. Thus, in 8m content the expansion of Bloodthirst/Inspiration to raid-wide has minimal impact.

 

In 16m content, there are typically two full groups of DPS as well as some extras. Clearly, in this situation the raid-wide buff is beneficial. Still, in situations where balanced groups are required the raid-wide buff could be problematic. For instance, during the first phase of The Terror from Beyond in "Terror from Beyond" the 40m buff may or may not cover the entire party based on their and the tentacles position. On the other hand, there are many fights where the balanced groups will be beyond 40m. In these cases the benefit of having a second Marauder/Sentinel is now greater than in fights where there is only one target for the group to attack.

 

For the occasional content with more than 16 - most likely World Bosses - the change to Bloodthirst/Inspiration will only amplify the challenges outlined above.

 

Thus, the value of a character depends on the type of encounter, the group size and the number of other characters of the same AC. This is unnecessarily complex, and the complexity increases as the group size increases. Considering larger groups are already more complex to coordinate the change would place an unnecessary tax on content for groups of more than 8.

 

Possible Changes

Assuming BW feels the need to change this ability, I feel there are more subtle approaches that actually better accomplish the intent of encouraging class diversity within raid groups.

 

For instance:

• Maintain the group-only limitation for Bloodthirst/Inspiration, but implement the 5m debuff. Assuming an 8m raid group only had one Marauder/Sentinel, this is their current reality so it would not impact things. For 8m groups with two Marauders/Sentinels, if they wanted to capitalize on 2x Bloodthirsts/Inspirations they would need to organize the groups less optimally ie not all DPS in the same group. Alternatively, when mechanics dictate balanced groups - tank, healer and 2 DPS - each Marauder/Sentinel would be able to contribute. Plus, this would allow groups larger than 8 to benefit from more than one Marauder/Sentinel.
   
   
  
• Implement the raid-wide buff, maintain the 5m CD on the ability, but implement a shortened raid-wide debuff, perhaps 60s. This would prevent successive Bloodthirsts/Inspirations from being used during burn phases. But, it would allow each Marauder/Sentinel to contribute their maximum utility in an encounter.
  

 

To recap, the planned change makes it so at most only one Marauder/Sentinel may achieve their full utility regardless of raid group size; no other AC is penalized like this. I implore you to reconsider and utilize one of my proposed changes instead. I will edit and add to this as I reflect more on the planned change.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this wall of text,

oofalong

 

Rebuttal to "Marauders/Sentinels are OP and need nerfed":

Relative to other mDPS classes Marauders appear strong; however, in 2.4 Powertechs/Vanguards were changed and in 2.5 Operatives/Scoundrels and Assassins/Shadows are being changed. Plus, the Bloodthirst/Inspiration is only one of the planned changes to the AC in 2.5. Thus, it is unclear if this axiom will hold true going forward. Further, the other frequently perceived over-powered AC - Snipers/Gunslingers - is not being changed. Thus, if this was an attempt to correct broader imbalances why was nothing done here? I support the idea of class diversity in raid groups, but I believe the mechanism BioWare plans on introducing to do this - the planned change to Bloodthirst/Inspiration - will not work and will unnecessarily adversely affect Marauders/Sentinels.

[NuSeC]

To be honest, Marauders don't have a 4s stun like other DPS do. All DPS got a 4s stun, except Marauders. Why is there a need to punish our defensive cool downs? We sacrifice a stun for it.

 

no warrior or knight has a 4 sec stun. The closest a warrior/knight class has to a hard stun is in the tanking tree for choke/stasis to work without being channeled.

 

 

 

 

And UR was a little OP... I think this will work to bring it into a more manageable level. Maras/Sents still have other good CDs besides this as well.

 

Really

[oofalong]

no warrior or knight has a 4 sec stun. The closest a warrior/knight class has to a hard stun is in the tanking tree for choke/stasis to work without being channeled.

 

 

 

 

And UR was a little OP... I think this will work to bring it into a more manageable level. Maras/Sents still have other good CDs besides this as well.

 

Really

 

 

We have Intimidating Roar...

[Okamakiri]

We have Intimidating Roar...

 

Not sure which of his points you were replying to, but just for the record, Intimidating Roar is a disorient, not a stun. Stuns don't break on damage. Closest thing to a stun that Mara has is Force Choke, but the fact that it's channeled makes it far less useful than a true stun.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Okamakiri

[oofalong]

Not sure which of his points you were replying to, but just for the record, Intimidating Roar is a disorient, not a stun. Stuns don't break on damage. Closest thing to a stun that Mara has is Force Choke, but the fact that it's channeled makes it far less useful than a true stun.

 

potato vs. potato

 

To be honest, I didn't follow their posts; I was just chiming in to remind them that while we don't have a hard stun we do have the ability to stun characters for 6s. Personally, I prefer this to the Merc's Electro Dart. In any event, every class should not have access to the same abilities.