Marauder Changes - Game Update 2.5

[Okamakiri]

For the most part, the proposed changes are good. I don't even disagree with the sentiment behind UR/GBTF and BT/Inspiration changes, but I do strongly disagree with how they are being implemented.

 

Bloodthirst/Inspiration

Making the buff raid wide is a good change. However, as mentioned by others, 5 min debuff is too long. Not only does it discourage bringing more than one mara/sent to the raid, but it also makes the whole raid vulnerable to a mistake of a single person. No other class is prevented from using their utility in raid if there are other players of their class present. In the very least this debuff should be reduced to 1-2 minutes to prevent chain usage, while still allowing more than one mara/sent present in raid to contribute their utility, which is one of the factors that they're balanced around.

 

UR/GBTF

Base version of UR/GBTF is not overpowered. Where this ability starts becoming unbalanced is when you add the talents from Rage/Focus spec and the PVP set bonus. Instead of removing the Rage/Focus talents and the PVP set bonus, you're nerfing the ability for all three specs, thus making the two specs that were already inferior in PVP even more inferior. Applying the damage at the end of the ability is also a horrible change for PVE, where it's likely to cause healers to spend twice as much time and resources healing us. It also makes any self healing half as effective, since we're not able to alleviate some of the pressure on healers by using a medpac immediately.

 

I don't think you'll find too many players disagreeing with you about wanting to re-balance these abilities, but please reconsider how you're doing it.

[Okamakiri]

potato vs. potato

 

To be honest, I didn't follow their posts; I was just chiming in to remind them that while we don't have a hard stun we do have the ability to stun characters for 6s. Personally, I prefer this to the Merc's Electro Dart. In any event, every class should not have access to the same abilities.

 

Intimidating Roar is a great ability, but it's not a stun. A single dot tick or any splash damage from any other players around you will break it. It's no different than Operative/Sniper's Flash Bang, and those classes also have stuns. The effect it applies on targets is same as any of the single target CC's that break on damage (Assassin's Mind Trap/Whirlwind, Sorc's Whirlwind, Merc's Concussion Missile, etc.). Disorients are generally used defensively or strategically (such as eliminating a healer from a fight during an offensive move on another target).

 

Stuns on the other hand can also be used offensively since they don't break on damage. This is also why they're generally considered the strongest form of CC and why BW had the range of all stuns reduced to 10m. It's also why they're generally of shorter duration and most of the time single target (exception being PT/Vanguard's Carbonize/Neural Surge).

 

I do agree with you though that not every class should have same abilities, that would be boring. However, given the importance and strength of stuns, I don't think it's right that Mara/Sent is the only class without access to one.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Okamakiri

[ekimmak]

For the most part, the proposed changes are good. I don't even disagree with the sentiment behind UR/GBTF and BT/Inspiration changes, but I do strongly disagree with how they are being implemented.

 

Bloodthirst/Inspiration

Making the buff raid wide is a good change. However, as mentioned by others, 5 min debuff is too long. Not only does it discourage bringing more than one mara/sent to the raid, but it also makes the whole raid vulnerable to a mistake of a single person. No other class is prevented from using their utility in raid if there are other players of their class present. In the very least this debuff should be reduced to 1-2 minutes to prevent chain usage, while still allowing more than one mara/sent present in raid to contribute their utility, which is one of the factors that they're balanced around.

 

UR/GBTF

Base version of UR/GBTF is not overpowered. Where this ability starts becoming unbalanced is when you add the talents from Rage/Focus spec and the PVP set bonus. Instead of removing the Rage/Focus talents and the PVP set bonus, you're nerfing the ability for all three specs, thus making the two specs that were already inferior in PVP even more inferior. Applying the damage at the end of the ability is also a horrible change for PVE, where it's likely to cause healers to spend twice as much time and resources healing us. It also makes any self healing half as effective, since we're not able to alleviate some of the pressure on healers by using a medpac immediately.

 

I don't think you'll find too many players disagreeing with you about wanting to re-balance these abilities, but please reconsider how you're doing it.

 

So, revives don't count as skills? You're incorrect about there being no other skills that lock each other out, but they're different enough that it's not worth pursuing. And to be honest? This skill has already been nerfed hard in hopes of making it less necessary that a marauder be on the raid team, I'm pretty sure that it used to provide more than 5% boost. At the moment, it's only worth using if you immediately follow up with the berserk, to increase the power of your boosted attacks (when soloing. The only class that will notice if you use it in a raid is every other sentinel/marauder, because they can't build centering/fury any more).

 

Guarded by the Force is overpowered. It is now, it always has been. And no amount of "It's just the set bonuses/skill trees" whining will change that. They make it more overpowered, yes. But it practically forced someone to save their stun for it in PVP, because it was entirely possible to get them down to execute range, and then lose in the last moments due to that skill. The only option was to save the stun to keep them out of it during those moments, and now, it's going to turn that skill back on them. It's like having 50% healing debuff for the duration, only messier, because it's likely to leave them in execute range without a healer going overtime, and unlike before, it's not something a warzone medpack can take them out of.

[Okamakiri]

So, revives don't count as skills? You're incorrect about there being no other skills that lock each other out, but they're different enough that it's not worth pursuing. And to be honest? This skill has already been nerfed hard in hopes of making it less necessary that a marauder be on the raid team, I'm pretty sure that it used to provide more than 5% boost. At the moment, it's only worth using if you immediately follow up with the berserk, to increase the power of your boosted attacks (when soloing. The only class that will notice if you use it in a raid is every other sentinel/marauder, because they can't build centering/fury any more).

 

Guarded by the Force is overpowered. It is now, it always has been. And no amount of "It's just the set bonuses/skill trees" whining will change that. They make it more overpowered, yes. But it practically forced someone to save their stun for it in PVP, because it was entirely possible to get them down to execute range, and then lose in the last moments due to that skill. The only option was to save the stun to keep them out of it during those moments, and now, it's going to turn that skill back on them. It's like having 50% healing debuff for the duration, only messier, because it's likely to leave them in execute range without a healer going overtime, and unlike before, it's not something a warzone medpack can take them out of.

 

Obviously I disagree on both counts, but I have no interest in arguing with you. My post was addressed to BW.

[oofalong]

So, revives don't count as skills? You're incorrect about there being no other skills that lock each other out, but they're different enough that it's not worth pursuing.

 

They are different, and you seem to know this already. In addition to the things you are already thinking about consider that any revive requires the target to be dead. Thus, an accidental use is not possible. There certainly may be inopportune uses or reviving the wrong target, but not accidental.

 

And to be honest? This skill has already been nerfed hard in hopes of making it less necessary that a marauder be on the raid team, I'm pretty sure that it used to provide more than 5% boost.

 

I do not believe this is true. To my knowledge it has always been 15% for 15s, and I could find no mention of a change in any past patch note.

 

...The only class that will notice if you use it in a raid is every other sentinel/marauder, because they can't build centering/fury any more).

 

Every DPS should be aware of it. They receive a visual buff and they should be coordinating their offensive CDs for max damage.

[ekimmak]

Obviously I disagree on both counts, but I have no interest in arguing with you. My post was addressed to BW.

 

So, you disagree with the fact that Undying Rage/Guarded by the Force will be worse off after the nerf?

 

They are different, and you seem to know this already. In addition to the things you are already thinking about consider that any revive requires the target to be dead. Thus, an accidental use is not possible. There certainly may be inopportune uses or reviving the wrong target, but not accidental.

Fair enough. Just pointing out that skill lockouts aren't something new to the game, and for exactly the same reason. If that lockout wasn't there, a raid would bring in several classes with revives simply because those classes could ease through several deaths, ignoring classes without the in-combat revive. How's the motivation any different from a bloodthirst lockout?

 

I do not believe this is true. To my knowledge it has always been 15% for 15s, and I could find no mention of a change in any past patch note.

 

Plausible. But I remember it only being 5% whenever I looked at the tooltip recently. And 5% is not something to write home about.

 

Every DPS should be aware of it. They receive a visual buff and they should be coordinating their offensive CDs for max damage.

 

See above. I believed it to be 5%, therefore the reason the DPS wouldn't notice would be because the DPS didn't care.

[oofalong]

...

Fair enough. Just pointing out that skill lockouts aren't something new to the game, and for exactly the same reason. If that lockout wasn't there, a raid would bring in several classes with revives simply because those classes could ease through several deaths, ignoring classes without the in-combat revive. How's the motivation any different from a bloodthirst lockout?

 

To answer your questions directly, it is different because revive can be done by three different ACs while Bloodthirst is only available to one AC. Plus, this is the only group utility that the AC offers (ignoring Predation). In other words it is a unique ability, yet the presence of other Marauders/Sentinels will make it no longer useable. Every other spec/AC retains their unique abilities regardless of how many of the same spec/AC are present. Aside from revive, there are no other group utility abilities that are locked out for the rest of the raid group. I wrote a much lengthier diatribe on it back a page detailing other differences/inconsistencies you might want to read if you haven't already.

 

Plausible. But I remember it only being 5% whenever I looked at the tooltip recently. And 5% is not something to write home about.

...

See above. I believed it to be 5%, therefore the reason the DPS wouldn't notice would be because the DPS didn't care.

 

Assuming it was 5% I can understand the lack of excitement. Still, it is 15% for 15s so it definitely can make a difference.

[Raansu]

So, revives don't count as skills? You're incorrect about there being no other skills that lock each other out, but they're different enough that it's not worth pursuing. And to be honest? This skill has already been nerfed hard in hopes of making it less necessary that a marauder be on the raid team, I'm pretty sure that it used to provide more than 5% boost. At the moment, it's only worth using if you immediately follow up with the berserk, to increase the power of your boosted attacks (when soloing. The only class that will notice if you use it in a raid is every other sentinel/marauder, because they can't build centering/fury any more).

 

Guarded by the Force is overpowered. It is now, it always has been. And no amount of "It's just the set bonuses/skill trees" whining will change that. They make it more overpowered, yes. But it practically forced someone to save their stun for it in PVP, because it was entirely possible to get them down to execute range, and then lose in the last moments due to that skill. The only option was to save the stun to keep them out of it during those moments, and now, it's going to turn that skill back on them. It's like having 50% healing debuff for the duration, only messier, because it's likely to leave them in execute range without a healer going overtime, and unlike before, it's not something a warzone medpack can take them out of.

 

Anyone who thinks GBTF was OP in pvp was a terrible player to begin with. It is ridiculously easy to deal with by simply just rooting,slowing,stunning them. And if there is a healer nearby...well you're attacking the wrong target to begin with. That is a l2p/pug issue.

[Sappharan]

It's like having 50% healing debuff for the duration, only messier, because it's likely to leave them in execute range without a healer going overtime, and unlike before, it's not something a warzone medpack can take them out of.

 

Thank you for illustrating just why this is so pernicious and COMPLETELY WRONG!

 

Medpacs are now 50% for Sentinels/Marauders, but no one else. Does that seem fair? Of course the whiners will, but it is not. We have the worst passive defenses for any melee and we're to suffer a class nerf because of overpowered SMASH? This is patently absurd!

Edited October 28, 2013 by Sappharan

[Edo-jidai]

Hey everyone,

 

Below are the planned Marauder changes for Game Update 2.5. Please use this thread to give feedback for these changes. You can read the full class changes blog here!

 

Sith Marauder

 

General

• The stacking buff provided by Juyo Form now lasts 24 seconds (up from 15) and can be applied once every second (down from every 1.5 seconds).
  
• Bloodthirst and Predation no longer prevent the Marauder from building Fury while they are active.
  
• Bloodthirst now affects your entire Operation group up to 40 meters away from the Marauder (up from 30 meters) but also applies a debuff which lasts for five minutes on all affected group members. This debuff prevents affected players from regaining Bloodthirst while it is active.
  
• Undying Rage now has a 2 minute cooldown (up from 1 minute and 30 seconds).
  
• The health for Undying Rage is now spent when the damage reducing effect expires, rather than when it begins. It still costs 50% of current health.
  

Annihilation

• The stacking Annihilator buff provided by Annihilate now lasts 24 seconds (up from 15).
  

Rage

• Undying no longer increases damage reduction but still reduces the cooldown of Undying Rage by 15/30 seconds.
  
• Force Vigor no longer interacts with Undying Rage. It now permanently increases passive damage reduction by 1/2% and still builds 1/2 Rage when Dual Saber Throw is used.
  

 

Coul you please change the Deadly Saber duration? 15 seconds is too short. You always have to renew it. You change the Operativs Acid Blade as well. So please make that Deadly Saber lasts much longer.

 

(sry about my english)

[Niko_Storm]

Since you are nerfing the survivability of Marauders maybe you will improve some 2 skills in carnage and anni to give more rage instead?

For example:

Carnage:

Blood Frenzy - instead of 1 rage give like 3-4 rage generation - probably it will solve the rage issue of the carnage for the time being.

Annihilation:

Force charge (2/2) - 100% of generating additional 3 rage.

 

Otherwise please leave the undying rage with the current numbers. I don't need to die in a fight where I cannot use the utility for a longer survival.

[Emperor-Norton]

Since you are nerfing the survivability of Marauders maybe you will improve some 2 skills in carnage and anni to give more rage instead?

For example:

Carnage:

Blood Frenzy - instead of 1 rage give like 3-4 rage generation - probably it will solve the rage issue of the carnage for the time being.

Annihilation:

Force charge (2/2) - 100% of generating additional 3 rage.

 

Otherwise please leave the undying rage with the current numbers. I don't need to die in a fight where I cannot use the utility for a longer survival.

Carnage's and Annihilation's Rage generation is spot on, any changes would make the specs easy mode.

[MarkusBiggus]

I agree with the original post - the raid wide debuff may make other players disadvantaged after the first player uses their ability to put the debuff on, it reduces the utility of the other players of the same class and no other class has any affect like this on other players of the the same class present in the raid group.

 

I can see how disputes will arise over someone using the ability before another player was planning to use theirs later on and being locked out.

 

Players should never be able to disadvantage other players by playing their abilities.

 

It is a really bad solution to whatever the perceived problem is.

[milehighclub]

I guess it's number crunching time to really know the effective impact. Raid-wide buff every 5mins against (3x)4-man-groups (4DPS / 4 DPS / 2DPS, 2 Tanks) being buffed as soon ability is up. Depends on number of Marauders and group layout to a good extent. Probably best for testing would be a 16M Raid. But very hard to reproduce due to things like Crits etc during Bloodthirst. Guess this would take time to really reach a verdict.

 

Although, if you imagine the 15secs window for the whole Raid against 3 groups each with one Marauder during one Boss fight, I assume the later wins. Just my 2 cents.

 

What could be added for the 3 groups is that if they are not PUGs that they can prepare for a good Rotation starting point when BT kicks in. Pretty hard for the whole Raid.

Edited November 15, 2013 by milehighclub

[Elyon]

So while madness assassins get their stuff uncleansable, Annihilation bleed effects can still be cleansed by every healer, and rage aka lolsmash gets buffed even more. Why don't you just tell us that you want us to drop every spec except Rage?

Annihilation should be made uncleansable as well unless you want the future pvp to only have smashmonkey marauders running around.

 

Same with the stuns

1 minute cooldown on force choke which needs to be channeled, while Operatives have 45/30 seconds on their stun that lets them do anything.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Elyon

[Mercathode]

The bad part about this is that when they Nerf a spec or class because of PVP, PVE suffers. I don't play much PVP...since it's kinda stupid and broken in this game. Now, there's no point in having 2 Marauders for any raid. One of the things that made a Rage spec viable in PVE was it's undying rage cost of just 25% and being able to do it a few times during a fight. I don't get that they just moved the passive 2% damage reduction (which is basically useless) from one skill to the other.

 

How about giving us a carrot with the stick? Like maybe making the 3 stacks of Shockwave an instant buff, not having to wait for them to "tick" when using Force Crush. This mechanic is broken as I know it has to "hit". If you stack too many casts during the build up of Force Crush to wait for the 3 stacks of Shockwave...they never come and you end up with just one.

 

Oh and while you are at it......FIX THE STUTTER ON VISCOUS SLASH....this has been a problem since day 1 of this game. If you queue too many casts of Viscous Throw...it stutters. You have to wait until it casts, to cast the next one. SOOOOOO ANNOYING!!!!

[oofalong]

Oh and while you are at it......FIX THE STUTTER ON VISCOUS SLASH....this has been a problem since day 1 of this game. If you queue too many casts of Viscous Throw...it stutters. You have to wait until it casts, to cast the next one. SOOOOOO ANNOYING!!!!

 

What are you talking about? First off, I presume you meant "...queue too many casts of Vicious Slash...", right? Even still I have never heard of anything specific to that ability...

[Mercathode]

What are you talking about? First off, I presume you meant "...queue too many casts of Vicious Slash...", right? Even still I have never heard of anything specific to that ability...

 

Yeah sorry. Viscous Slash. It has a stutter. I don't have fps issues. This was a problem since the inception. If you cast it and then press the button again (before the 1st cast finishes) my character pulls back goes about 1/2 way through the cast and then draws back again and then follows all the way through. Sometimes the this happens 3x. It can happen on the very 1st cast or the 2nd, 3d etc. I have the ability stacking timer thingy set to max I believe is 1.0 seconds?

 

 

Above link is an example. I don't know if they fixed it and I'm the only one. If you wait until it casts before you cast the next one it doesn't happen but in a fight, that's one more thing you have to worry about when you shouldn't. I never put in a service ticket. Maybe I should. I think people who play Marauders just live with it.

[oofalong]

Yeah sorry. Viscous Slash. It has a stutter. I don't have fps issues. This was a problem since the inception. If you cast it and then press the button again (before the 1st cast finishes) my character pulls back goes about 1/2 way through the cast and then draws back again and then follows all the way through. Sometimes the this happens 3x. It can happen on the very 1st cast or the 2nd, 3d etc. I have the ability stacking timer thingy set to max I believe is 1.0 seconds?

 

 

Above link is an example. I don't know if they fixed it and I'm the only one. If you wait until it casts before you cast the next one it doesn't happen but in a fight, that's one more thing you have to worry about when you shouldn't. I never put in a service ticket. Maybe I should. I think people who play Marauders just live with it.

 

This is not a problem specific to Vicious Slash. It can happen to any class and ability. However, instant abilities are more affected by it apparently. Unfortunately, there is not an easy fix. The problem is intermittent and can not be reproduced easily/consistently...

[Mercathode]

This is not a problem specific to Vicious Slash. It can happen to any class and ability. However, instant abilities are more affected by it apparently. Unfortunately, there is not an easy fix. The problem is intermittent and can not be reproduced easily/consistently...

 

Well I've played a few classes and none of those have that consistently intermittent problem. The other Marauder abilities that are insta-cast don't either. You lose DPS as you have to let it catch up to effectively cast. If you wait and cast it at the end of each succssive one, it doesn't do it. Seems counter intuitive as to why would you activate an ability before the other one finishes? But it's nice to be able to spam an ability to minimize in between time so you know you get it off as soon as the previous one finishes and in this case not lose DPS.

 

Btw are you a dev? Or do you program? As you seem to come from the angle of knowing about the programming and what it would take to fix it.

[oofalong]

Well I've played a few classes and none of those have that consistently intermittent problem. The other Marauder abilities that are insta-cast don't either.

...

Btw are you a dev? Or do you program? As you seem to come from the angle of knowing about the programming and what it would take to fix it.

 

Definitely not a programmer or software developer, but an active forum goer. This issue has been reported and discussed here almost since the beginning. I personally notice it more frequently whe playing Carnage. I agree it is frustrating and a DPS.

 

I did personally speak with Musco at the Chicago Cantina Event about intermittent bugs - such as this and Black Talon crashing - because they don't happen to everyone and they don't happen all of the time they are very difficult to diagnose and, thus, fix.

[naldoran]

Is there any chance that we could please, please change the "Satiated" status from a debuff icon to a buff icon? In fights with lots of debuffs to cleanse, having an extra debuff icon up there for five minutes makes the healers' lives more difficult than necessary. Edited December 9, 2013 by naldoran