Bring back the stun bubble as a bandaid for sorcs

[anwg]

Make bubble stun baseline, but...

 

1. Only works against the person whose damage broke the bubble within 35 meters and adds the correct resolve, however the effect works for the sorc's teammates.

2. Backlash's effect unchanged, in addition to the baseline behavior, only works if the sorc places the bubble on himself.

[cycao]

Yeah no.

[Helig]

Yeah no.

I strongly believe that the OP aspect of the pre-2.0 bubble was the fact that it could be triggered off bubbled teammates. I see a fairly big QoL improvement for Sages and Sorcs if bubblestun was reverted to stun, instead of mez, but worked only off of your bubble, on yourself.

 

Not sure about making it baseline though.

[Zoom_VI]

I don't care how much you restrict it, no class should have what I would call "reactive CC" in other words CC that is applied to atttackers simply because they attacked the person.

 

Concealment should not be auto CC'ed on opener, concealment should be CC'ed because their target recognized them as a threat and CC'ed them intentionally

[Helig]

I don't care how much you restrict it, no class should have what I would call "reactive CC" in other words CC that is applied to atttackers simply because they attacked the person.

 

Concealment should not be auto CC'ed on opener, concealment should be CC'ed because their target recognized them as a threat and CC'ed them intentionally

I can also list a number of mechanics that I "don't like" and think that "no class should have".

 

If any, the squishiest class should have reactive defenses against, like you mentioned, stealth. Unless you believe that Sorcs can just LoS, heal to full and make the enemy pay for trying to kill them, of course.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Helig

[Mikeieveli]

No. I one of my alts is a sorc. Just No.

[MasterBLASTERpl]

Make bubble stun baseline, but...

 

1. Only works against the person whose damage broke the bubble within 35 meters and adds the correct resolve, however the effect works for the sorc's teammates.

2. Backlash's effect unchanged, in addition to the baseline behavior, only works if the sorc places the bubble on himself.

 

What's your problem mate? You don't like the new version of the bubble? C'mon it's pretty cool that you can switch "a god-mode" for 10 seconds while you can do... well... --nothing--. It's even more cooler that you will still die after. But the coolest part is that you have to wait next 3 minutes for another glorious opportunity to look like ******* on the battlefield.

 

Seriously, admit that you are just bad OP. You should go LoS, heal-to-full and make them all pay.

[Joesixxpack]

Thoughtful idea, I don't think it's is a good solution.

 

I'm just starting to 55 gear an old sage (balance) and get the concerns but we'd all be using it. Not as bad as Team Bubble Stun™, but still too bad.

[ekimmak]

I have no problem with this, if you have no problem with the static lockout debuff being increased to four minute duration.

 

Why four minutes? Because that's how long the collective stuns on half your team should add up to a cooldown. It's already the lowest cooldown CC in the game, and melee have to dance circles around it to try and avoid it. Now you want it so that people have to eat the stun irregardless? Have you not seen the signature that tells Bioware to fire anyone who thinks adding more CC is a good idea?

 

There's no point in adding something that WILL be taken off by the next update, if not the next patch.

[Capt_Beers]

If you want turn based combat this isn't the game for you.

 

Because that's what the stun bubble turned PvP into.

[Zoom_VI]

I can also list a number of mechanics that I "don't like" and think that "no class should have".

 

If any, the squishiest class should have reactive defenses against, like you mentioned, stealth. Unless you believe that Sorcs can just LoS, heal to full and make the enemy pay for trying to kill them, of course.

 

But a class that is almost entirely dependent on its opener be penalized for using its opener?

 

Its not target at sorcs its a principle, CC should require the player to make active decisions on what needs to be CC'ed it should not automatic.

 

A better solution for sorcs would be

 When Force armor ends you have a 50/100% you gain *insert talent name* that gives X% damage reduction for two seconds

Edited October 15, 2013 by Zoom_VI

[foxmob]

I strongly believe that the OP aspect of the pre-2.0 bubble was the fact that it could be triggered off bubbled teammates. I see a fairly big QoL improvement for Sages and Sorcs if bubblestun was reverted to stun, instead of mez, but worked only off of your bubble, on yourself.

 

Not sure about making it baseline though.

 

prevent them from breaking the solo rated queue system by running a heal spec in the dps slot and then we can talk about giving them more adequate defenses...

[LaVall]

I strongly believe that the OP aspect of the pre-2.0 bubble was the fact that it could be triggered off bubbled teammates. I see a fairly big QoL improvement for Sages and Sorcs if bubblestun was reverted to stun, instead of mez, but worked only off of your bubble, on yourself.

 

Not sure about making it baseline though.

 

I'd be alright with that, as long as it gave proper resolve this time around.

[TipsyDrow]

Sorc/sage middle tree has the stun bubble for the caster only and it's a mez. It's perfectly fine just as it is where it is. I've had that capped sage stun bubble build on The Harbinger and I would rather not be forced into it again. So no, we don't need it back like it was. In 8vs8 WZ's sorc/sages are very good. I understand in arenas they may not be optimal but how do you fix them for arenas without making them godlike in 8vs8?

[snaplemouton]

But a class that is almost entirely dependent on its opener be penalized for using its opener?

 

Its not target at sorcs its a principle, CC should require the player to make active decisions on what needs to be CC'ed it should not automatic.

 

A better solution for sorcs would be

 When Force armor ends you have a 50/100% you gain *insert talent name* that gives X% damage reduction for two seconds

That is what I've been yelling on the roofs for months now.

Sage/Sorc need passive damage reduction and not more tools... They already are one of the classes with the most tools in the game.

[Helig]

But a class that is almost entirely dependent on its opener be penalized for using its opener?

 

Its not target at sorcs its a principle, CC should require the player to make active decisions on what needs to be CC'ed it should not automatic.

 

A better solution for sorcs would be

 When Force armor ends you have a 50/100% you gain *insert talent name* that gives X% damage reduction for two seconds

Erm, quite frankly, there are several mechanics in ToR that either penalize, or outright deny key mechanics of other classes. Stealth classes have a significant tactical advantage of having the first shot, and they win pretty much every 1v1 competition. But the game isn't quite balanced around 1v1, so, let's take a look at it from a group perspective.

 

4v4, Arena. Sorcs, statistically, are more likely to be initially focused than not. Now, I'm not running my Sorc in team ranked (my experience in this area is mainly limited to Guardian and Commando at the moment), but I'm pretty certain that my Commando is more mobile, has better peels and defenses, both active and passive. The 3-min immunity bubble is pretty much the only thing able to mitigate bad luck, or a tactical mistake of a Sorc.

 

The initial attack on the Sorc, especially in close quarters *MUST* fail to give him a few precious moments to reposition, especially if this attack comes from stealth (you can see a Warrior, and you know where exactly he will land if he charges, so that you can immediately knock him back from the ledge, for example. Against stealth, no such luxury).

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Sorcs are an awful class. It has what it needs to defend itself 1v1, but for group situations, immunity is pretty much his only advantage over other ranged classes. Teams have tanks and peels, yada-yada, but right now, it doesn't feel that the Sorc's design (intended) flaws are compensated well enough by design strengths.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Helig

[snaplemouton]

Erm, quite frankly, there are several mechanics in ToR that either penalize, or outright deny key mechanics of other classes. Stealth classes have a significant tactical advantage of having the first shot, and they win pretty much every 1v1 competition. But the game isn't quite balanced around 1v1, so, let's take a look at it from a group perspective.

 

4v4, Arena. Sorcs, statistically, are more likely to be initially focused than not. Now, I'm not running my Sorc in team ranked (my experience in this area is mainly limited to Guardian and Commando at the moment), but I'm pretty certain that my Commando is more mobile, has better peels and defenses, both active and passive. The 3-min immunity bubble is pretty much the only thing able to mitigate bad luck, or a tactical mistake of a Sorc.

 

The initial attack on the Sorc, especially in close quarters *MUST* fail to give him a few precious moments to reposition, especially if this attack comes from stealth (you can see a Warrior, and you know where exactly he will land if he charges, so that you can immediately knock him back from the ledge, for example. Against stealth, no such luxury).

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Sorcs are an awful class. It has what it needs to defend itself 1v1, but for group situations, immunity is pretty much his only advantage over other ranged classes. Teams have tanks and peels, yada-yada, but right now, it doesn't feel that the Sorc's design (intended) flaws are compensated well enough by design strengths.

 

And that is where you got it all wrong...

 

Sage/Sorc need passive damage reduction, not more CC or escapes or heals or any other kind of tools.

The reason sage and sorcs suck in arenas is that they are the number 1 target due to how they take more damage then anyone else with their light armor and few passive defensive talents.

Personally, I'd give sorc a passive ability that make Deionized (the debuff you get from bubble) increase their physical damage reduction to the values of a medium armor.

[Laforet]

I dont want stunbubble back, but im afraid we NEED stunbubble to compete with warriors.

 

Some hefty damage reduction on bubble break would fix 90% of sorcs problems, but thats something biowar just wont do.

 

They are so r*tarded that they might as well bring back team bubble stun instead of giving us a simple low duration passive dmg reduction cd.

[Laforet]

And that is where you got it all wrong...

Personally, I'd give sorc a passive ability that make Deionized (the debuff you get from bubble) increase their physical damage reduction to the values of a medium armor.

 

Something like this would actually fix 90% of the class problems. Sry for double post.

[Helig]

And that is where you got it all wrong...

 

Sage/Sorc need passive damage reduction, not more CC or escapes or heals or any other kind of tools.

The reason sage and sorcs suck in arenas is that they are the number 1 target due to how they take more damage then anyone else with their light armor and few passive defensive talents.

Personally, I'd give sorc a passive ability that make Deionized (the debuff you get from bubble) increase their physical damage reduction to the values of a medium armor.

Sounds like a step towards class homogenization to me. BW did say (aside the h2f BS) that Sorc class design was the slippery caster.

 

And I honestly think that the class should be moving into this direction. Sorc should become the highly inconvenient target. Tempting, but highly inconvenient, having multiple ways to trip over/disperse focus trains, escape chain CC (including roots), etc.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Helig

[Zoom_VI]

Erm, quite frankly, there are several mechanics in ToR that either penalize, or outright deny key mechanics of other classes. Stealth classes have a significant tactical advantage of having the first shot, and they win pretty much every 1v1 competition. But the game isn't quite balanced around 1v1, so, let's take a look at it from a group perspective.

 

4v4, Arena. Sorcs, statistically, are more likely to be initially focused than not. Now, I'm not running my Sorc in team ranked (my experience in this area is mainly limited to Guardian and Commando at the moment), but I'm pretty certain that my Commando is more mobile, has better peels and defenses, both active and passive. The 3-min immunity bubble is pretty much the only thing able to mitigate bad luck, or a tactical mistake of a Sorc.

 

The initial attack on the Sorc, especially in close quarters *MUST* fail to give him a few precious moments to reposition, especially if this attack comes from stealth (you can see a Warrior, and you know where exactly he will land if he charges, so that you can immediately knock him back from the ledge, for example. Against stealth, no such luxury).

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Sorcs are an awful class. It has what it needs to defend itself 1v1, but for group situations, immunity is pretty much his only advantage over other ranged classes. Teams have tanks and peels, yada-yada, but right now, it doesn't feel that the Sorc's design (intended) flaws are compensated well enough by design strengths.

 

The problem with bubblestun as a defensive mechanic is that it is both nearly useless and OP at the same time.

Against ranged classes or even PTs bubblestun is useless as they pop the bubble out of its range, to them it makes no deference whether the sorc has bubblestun or not.

Even against certain melee specs it is only minorly effective. A smasher can just hold their smash a extra two seconds for the mezz and then smash.

But for other class that are melee and opener dependant like concealment bubblestun is insanely potent, completely destroying their opener and leaving them open and easy pickings.

 

Yes sorcs need defensive mechanics, but they don't need mechanics that completely and utterly hard counter certain classes while doing nothing at all to others.

My DR idea provides equal protection agiasnt all classes while not completely hardcountering specific ones. It also has the added benefit that it is purely defensive and unlike bubblestun cannot be used offensively. bubblestun is obviously only intented to be defensive, but because by clicking off the buff, it became a controllable mechanic

[Helig]

Yes sorcs need defensive mechanics, but they don't need mechanics that completely and utterly hard counter certain classes while doing nothing at all to others.

My DR idea provides equal protection agiasnt all classes while not completely hardcountering specific ones. It also has the added benefit that it is purely defensive and unlike bubblestun cannot be used offensively. bubblestun is obviously only intented to be defensive, but because by clicking off the buff, it became a controllable mechanic

Unless it's a significant number, like over 50%, 2 sec damage resistance buff after the shield is broken would be even more useless than bubblestun against nonstealth. As you said, they would just hold off the damage (and use this 1 and a half gcd to apply utility like slows, DoTs, or what have you).

 

If we approach this from a damage reduction perspective, I believe it should either be considerable (like over 30-ish% for 4-5 seconds), or it should be noticeable (like 10%), but lasting for the entire duration of the Deionized debuff, like the other person suggested.

 

But, as I said, I'm really not in favour of the idea of just giving everyone medium+ armour.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Helig

[Ren_simp]

Best thing they can do for sorc/sage is reduce the cooldown on force wave To be more inline with force leap 20second vs 15 is pretty bad warriors have 5 full seconds Of uptime not including slows and zealous leap/obliterate Also force slow needs to have its cooldown removed, Just these few changes would greatly increase sorc/sage gameplay. Edited October 15, 2013 by Ren_simp

[Laforet]

Sounds like a step towards class homogenization to me. BW did say (aside the h2f BS) that Sorc class design was the slippery caster.

 

And I honestly think that the class should be moving into this direction. Sorc should become the highly inconvenient target. Tempting, but highly inconvenient, having multiple ways to trip over/disperse focus trains, escape chain CC (including roots), etc.

 

Being a slippery caster is one thing, being swifted 3 shotted by a melee class that has better slows / roots / mobility than you is another thing.

 

You cant be slippery with any class while warriors have the cooldowns and anti kiting kit they they currently have. Well maybe snipers can, but sorcs and mercs cant.

[skarlson]

H2F. Clearly a L2P issue.