An Open Letter to BioWare: Improving the Overall State of SWTOR.

[Covaltage]

Keep in mind the one to reply to such a thread would be Eric and he is away at the moment as he stated a couple of days ago. So getting a reply from him this week isn't going to happen. As for next week we'll see. I'd recommend that for those who are willing to PM Eric directly and ask him to read and muster up a reply to this specific thread. I do not think Bioware will ignore this, but we can't expect Amber and Courtney to jump in here. I don't believe this falls into their job line of sight.

 

Well, he said he'd be out of town for 2 days, 3 days ago. Of course, we know they won't post in any threads related to the actual game on Fridays anymore, and they don't post on weekends. I'm betting 2.4 hits before this thread gets a response. Assuming this thread gets a response.

[Nexvir]

/signed

 

[Andryah]

I know you're not an avid PvP'er, but many of us really want these class balance changes to happen as soon as they can so other class specs can get at a viable level.

 

Actually, I am an avid PvPer. I've played sandbox/open_world PvP for more then a decade.

 

I will play WZs with guildies..sometimes.. and will probably dabble in arenas in the same manner. But this is not real PvP IMO.. it's WoW_Battleground style faux PvP. It has no persistent faction based perks or objectives..it has no variability based on fluid objective and reward.. it's all about clinical PvP for self. As such.. I simply cannot get so worked up about it like some of you.

 

I Played DAoC for almost 5 years.. and that remains to this day the best MMO PvP ever IMO (and it always had warts, and FoTM issues, and balance issues, etc. etc.). I played EVE for a bit over three years as that was the best open environment for real multi-scale open engagement PvP. These days, I play world PvP on TSW when I want a PvP fix.. because frankly while it has it's issues.. it at least embodies the concepts of PvP for faction rather then just self. At the end of the day... Warfare is about cause, not self.... unless you are a mercenary. MMO PvP, courtesy of WoW battlegrounds, has devolved over time to be a mercenary psychology in the broader player base.

 

This should be seen as what it is, blind obedience. If we can not say after nearly 2 years that the pvp devs are completely incompetent and a direction change is severely needed then we also can not say the sun rises in the east. I would make a list, but I have to wash my hair. Needless to say month after month patch after patch has seen nothing but mediocrity at the best from the developers. IMO it all stems from having a Lead Designer for both PVP and PVE. Gabe needs a PVP counterpart and that has been readily apparent since the Guild Summit.

 

So.. which is it? completely incompetent" or "mediocre"?

 

I absolutely agree that PvP design to date in this particular MMO is "mediocre". I think most, even casual PvPers would agree with this. BUT... mediocre =/= completely incompetent in the modern lexicon of world languages. I mean.. come on... if you want to stab them fine..... but then don't pretend to want them to actually listen to you and make changes you like. That's hypocrisy and it won't get you what you want.

 

Again.. you guys pretend to want the devs to listen, to engage with you, and to move toward your desires.. and then you do the absurd by name calling and character assassination with nonsense like calling them "completely incompetent".

 

Personally, I would like to see real faction movtivators installed around PvP and to implement open PvP mechanics that encourage chasing what is good for the realm, rather then this endless nonsense about "what's in it for me" that so many of todays' PvPers (particularly the vocally hash ones) insist on. And class balance is not about making any PvPer feel better about their class, it's about developing an equilibrium in the classes to encourage broad play of the classes in PvP. The problem is.. there is no framework to even bother. The core problem with WZ/Arena style play is that it drives endless and meaningless rage and demands in some of the player base to "fix" balance. Balance, by definition can never be "fixed" in any clinical sense. It is an ebb and flow in MMO play over time. Every game patch, every piece of equipment, every new objective (no matter how lame) injects changes to the equilibrium. You are chasing a unicorn... and YES... Bioware has to date moved like a snail on addressing the "balance" myth. Then again, until you have a good framework for PvP.. balance is actually pretty pointless IMO.

 

I don't agree with putting Arenas into the game, for the same reason I did not agree with WZ, and particularly ranked WZs. They took the fun and spontaneous nature of open PvP out of WoW years ago.. and every theme park MMO since has been following that failed plan. It was a mistake IMO, and is largely why we have what we have today. But I don't sit in the forums and cry about it and demand the sacrifice of Bioware employees on the alter of rage. When I want the PvP I crave.. I have other MMOs that give me that particular component of play... even though they largely suck at many other components of play that this particular MMO continues to provide me.

 

Remarkably enough.. as a mature adult.. I can both see and embrace the logic of subbing to this MMO for the things it offers me that I really like, and at the same time sub to another MMO that fills in the gaps (like real PvP). I don't need to quit this one to fix PvP for me. I can continue to enjoy this MMO for the things it provides that are fun for me, and play another MMO for the PvP. I'm not alone in this either. A lot of people play multiple MMOs in this era of flexible access models.... for the same exact reasons I do.

[The_Grand_Nagus]

I've just been using a friend's account to post on the forums.

 

...Is this allowed?

[LordArtemis]

I think it's obvious that altering the petition to it's current form has gained a much larger support base. I am happy to see that.

 

I would comment on one thing...and this is just my opinion.

 

The problem with PVP is not a balance issue. It is a single rule set issue. Very few games have used the same rule set and not run into problems with balance in PVP (perhaps DAoC, TSW and GW2 are some noteworthy exceptions, there are probably others).

 

PVP should be a separate animal, under an entirely different rule set and GUI interface. In fact, I suggested they go with the SSSP GUI and ability setup. This would make PVP simple to approach, easy to balance, and difficult to master. RANKING would determine strength, and all stats would be based on one PVP stat...Expertise.

 

Skill based PVP. That is real PVP IMO.

 

No more gear. Your rank would be your goal. That would make you advance in PVP. And wins and losses would MEAN SOMETHING.

 

Just my view.

[Benfynyn]

...Is this allowed?

 

From what I can tell it is. You can't create a duplicate account to break rules or circumvent a ban but nothing about using someone elses active account. Just that the account holder is responsible for all the posts and private messages.

[Andryah]

I think it's obvious that altering the petition to it's current form has gained a much larger support base. I am happy to see that.

 

I would comment on one thing...and this is just my opinion.

 

The problem with PVP is not a balance issue. It is a single rule set issue. Very few games have used the same rule set and not run into problems with balance in PVP (perhaps DAoC, TSW and GW2 are some noteworthy exceptions, there are probably others).

 

PVP should be a separate animal, under an entirely different rule set and GUI interface. In fact, I suggested they go with the SSSP GUI and ability setup. This would make PVP simple to approach, easy to balance, and difficult to master. RANKING would determine strength, and all stats would be based on one PVP stat...Expertise.

 

Skill based PVP. That is real PVP IMO.

 

No more gear. Your rank would be your goal. That would make you advance in PVP. And wins and losses would MEAN SOMETHING.

 

Just my view.

 

As I have stated in prior threads, I support a PvP variant of this PvE game. Basically a second instance of the game that runs a PvP rule set with no stats on gear, and has actual faction vs faction motivators and NO WZs or Arenas. Star Wars is a natural for this.. as the motivators can all be about planetary control for the most part.

 

Running SWTOR and SWTOR@WAR as two different content instances of the same core game seems to me to be an excellent way to separate the endless PvE PvP turf wars in forums and is a easy way to launch a PvP centric Star Wars MMO property. And by easy.. I don't mean two interns and weeks work. I mean easy as in 80% is already there and the 20% new would move into a proper PvP space and be maintained from there as a separate track of the game IP.

[TUXs]

...Is this allowed?

 

Does it matter? Who cares...honestly...it's a non-issue. It's a paid account, paid accounts have posting privileges.

[Rafaman]

Does it matter? Who cares...honestly...it's a non-issue. It's a paid account, paid accounts have posting privileges.

 

Agree. It is irrelevant. The OP created a petition and posted in good faith.

[LordArtemis]

As I have stated in prior threads, I support a PvP variant of this PvE game. Basically a second instance of the game that runs a PvP rule set with no stats on gear, and has actual faction vs faction motivators and NO WZs or Arenas. Star Wars is a natural for this.. as the motivators can all be about planetary control for the most part.

 

Running SWTOR and SWTOR@WAR as two different content instances of the same core game seems to me to be an excellent way to separate the endless PvE PvP turf wars in forums and is a easy way to launch a PvP centric Star Wars MMO property. And by easy.. I don't mean two interns and weeks work. I mean easy as in 80% is already there and the 20% new would move into a proper PvP space and be maintained from there as a separate track of the game IP.

 

I get you on this. Makes sense to me.

[TUXs]

I get you on this. Makes sense to me.

 

Running 2 versions of the game makes sense to you? Really?! You think that with their blazing speed and ability to correct things at a moments notice, along with the massive amounts of content they've released for both gameplay styles, that running 2 versions of the game is a good idea?

[TUXs]

As I have stated in prior threads, I support a PvP variant of this PvE game. Basically a second instance of the game that runs a PvP rule set with no stats on gear, and has actual faction vs faction motivators and NO WZs or Arenas. Star Wars is a natural for this.. as the motivators can all be about planetary control for the most part.

 

People who like to PvP, don't necessarily EXCLUSIVELY PvP. This idea is foolish.

[LordArtemis]

Running 2 versions of the game makes sense to you? Really?! You think that with their blazing speed and ability to correct things at a moments notice, along with the massive amounts of content they've released for both gameplay styles, that running 2 versions of the game is a good idea?

 

Umm.....yes?

 

I didnt say it was the best idea in the world. But I think it's better than what is in place now, yes. I still prefer my idea more, which has it's own problems naturally as well.

 

Among other things the no gear part that probably would not go over very well.

[Rasen]

People who like to PvP, don't necessarily EXCLUSIVELY PvP. This idea is foolish.

 

Gotta agree with TUX's here. I love PvE, but I love to do warzones and I know I will love playing arenas. While the idea is interesting I don't think it is feasible nor would it benefit the game. Yes PvP needs its own progression, but that can be done within the current systems of the game. I've posted in the previous petition thread my ideas on that. The way I see it PvE is in a good place now. Has a strong foundation. Good comm system, good progression system and numerous rep systems to further augment it. PvP does not have a strong foundation. We are still going off systems established shortly after launch. Systems that haven't been ideal mainly due to Bioware improving themselves over time. PvE got a major retuning and overhaul in 2.0 and that's why it is in a good place. PvP is going to require that too.

 

Warzone commendations and ranked warzone commendations are fine as is IMO. But we need the actual progression system changed slightly. Having two to three consistent tiers of PvP gear(and not tiers as in you need to fully have one set before going to next. PvE benefits from being able to bypass some tiers depending on what content you do), with the first two being readily accessible to the masses so long as they do tons of PvP and the third tier being exclusive to Ranked players. This is doable now thanks to bolster so complaints about them having a big edge should be much weaker.

 

PvP Reputation needs to be added. You gain green rep from world PvP kills, blue rep from dailies, purple rep from weeklies. PvP Rep should probably be as big if not bigger than the Cartel Market Reps. On top of that maybe adding more PvP Rep vendors overtime as the game ages would be ideal to keep people doing it. Special Titles, pets, speeders and cosmetic gear should be rewarded for it. Stuff that looks warlike.

 

PvE currently has Dailies, HM FPs, SM OPs, HM OPs and NM OPs as the different tiers of endgame content. PvP should mirror this in its own way. PvP should have OWPvP, Warzones/Arenas, Ranked Arenas and Ranked Warzones. Open World PvP is hard to create so by tying it in with PvE dailies like they did with CZ and hopefully Oricon is enough for now IMO and with the added incentive of gaining rep for kills it can help boost it a bit. Warzones and Arenas can be the mirrors of HM FPs and SM OPs. This is the primary content everyone is doing from the casuals to the hardcore. Ranked Arenas is the area where hardcores play and casuals who want to transition to hardcore play. HM OPs are pretty much the same. The top tier of difficulty though lies with Ranked Warzones. Where the most hardcore and elite play just like Nightmare OPs.

 

When bringing back Ranked Warzones it needs cross server play(even if not doable now as devs say it is something that they do need in the long run and they need to find a way to fix this) and no bolster. This is the top of the line gameplay here so gear should matter along with skill. Bolster serves its purpose elsewhere, but not here.

 

Those are my general ideas for PvP foundation building. I think Bioware is on the road to that, but that's pure speculation.

[L-RANDLE]

......Bioware has to date moved like a snail on addressing the "balance" myth. Then again, until you have a good framework for PvP.. balance is actually pretty pointless IMO.

 

Disagree. TBH IMO BW was somewhat right in saying, "in general PvP players are happy if there is something to kill." That's the framework and people understand that for the most part. The problem will always be balance between classes. Even if they adjusted the framework, it would probably lead to more class stacking than we currently have. You have to attempt to have equilibrium/synergy/"true role definition" before you can design a framework.

 

Yes true balance is unicorn, but what I and others are fed up with is something I call "Guillotine Development". Instead of using a guillotine once or twice a year use a scalpel damn near every patch specifically when you see an issue. Its absurd that they admit something is "a bit too good", but takes months or years to address it. And when they do, watch out you might not be viable at all. There are a ton of examples that I won't go into, but I dont see the Devs using a holistic approach via a series of incremental changes to get us as close as possible to equilibrium.

 

Its like sitting there watching an elderly person pull up the mouton. It takes forever, but the end result is always the same. WHACK!

[Andryah]

TBH IMO BW was somewhat right in saying, "in general PvP players are happy if there is something to kill." That's the framework and people understand that for the most part.

 

Thank you for reinforcing my point. Bioware drank the players cool-aid and has bought in to the WoW_created model of modern PvP in theme park MMOs. But hey.. let's pretend Bioware is right here.... then there is nothing to fix really, right? People just want to kill..setting, method, approach, skills and equipment... unimportant. I don't buy it.

 

As long as they stick with this framework.. PvP will never be better then mediocre. Balance won't fix it. New WZ instances won't fix it. Arenas won't fix it. It's a fundamentally broken framework that offers nothing but an extension of duels between players. It's not warfare at all. It's contrived contests.

 

That framework will never satisfy the PvP player base.

• It won't satisfy old gummers from the age of real faction driven PvP in MMOs.

• It also won't satisfy the fast-food generation of instant gratification kill-or-be-killed players either as they simply cannot adjust it fast enough to prevent boredom and dissatisfaction

 

In the end.. the current framework will not hold players, regardless of content instancing, balance adjustments, or rewards. No themepark MMO that goes this route is able to satisfy the need. Because the core need is being mis-represented by a majority of the PvP players IMO. In a faction based game, warfare =/= contests.

[L-RANDLE]

Thank you for reinforcing my point. Bioware drank the players cool-aid and has bought in to the WoW_created model of modern PvP in theme park MMOs.

 

As long as they stick with this framework.. PvP will never be better then mediocre. Balance won't fix it. New WZ instances won't fix it. Arenas won't fix it. It's a fundamentally broken framework that offers nothing but an extension of duels between players. It's not warfare at all. It's contrived contests.

 

That framework will never satisfy the PvP player base.

• It won't satisfy old gummers from the age of real faction driven PvP in MMOs.

• It also won't satisfy the fast-food generation of instant gratification kill-or-be-killed players either as they simply cannot adjust it fast enough to prevent boredom and dissatisfaction

 

In the current framework will not hold players, regardless of content instancing, balance adjustments, or rewards. No themepark MMO that goes this route is able to satisfy the need. Because the core need is being mis-represented by a majority of the PvP players IMO.

 

All PvP is based on that framework. Its not just limited to MMOs. The issue between MMOs and other PvP games stats and roles can greatly affect outcomes, more so than any other genre. If you focus on framework without having a plausible baseline between classes, the framework is irrelevant. This is a chicken or egg debate but since it is PVP, the framework rarely, if ever needs to be addressed. There is such a mishmosh of skills and talents that the devs simply made it too complicated. If I decide I want to be a tank, then I should be granted access to all my tankie stuff.

[TUXs]

Thank you for reinforcing my point. Bioware drank the players cool-aid and has bought in to the WoW_created model of modern PvP in theme park MMOs.

 

As long as they stick with this framework.. PvP will never be better then mediocre. Balance won't fix it. New WZ instances won't fix it. Arenas won't fix it. It's a fundamentally broken framework that offers nothing but an extension of duels between players. It's not warfare at all. It's contrived contests.

 

That framework will never satisfy the PvP player base.

• It won't satisfy old gummers from the age of real faction driven PvP in MMOs.

• It also won't satisfy the fast-food generation of instant gratification kill-or-be-killed players either as they simply cannot adjust it fast enough to prevent boredom and dissatisfaction

 

In the end.. the current framework will not hold players, regardless of content instancing, balance adjustments, or rewards. No themepark MMO that goes this route is able to satisfy the need. Because the core need is being mis-represented by a majority of the PvP players IMO.

 

Holy freaking hyperbole!!! You don't speak for all of those players and this reply of yours as ridiculous as it is insulting.

[LordArtemis]

I fail to see how that could be considered insulting. Though it is opinionated, it is widely known that SWTOR is considered some of the worst PVP in the MMO market.

 

To be fair, WoW ranks pretty low on those lists as well.

 

Is it really that controversial to contend that PVP in this game is mediocre? I think it's a valid observation, though it is just an opinion.

 

DAoC, GW2, TSW, EVE usually top the list, Warhammer usually runs around the top as well.

 

Others certainly can disagree and are entitled to their opinions naturally.

[branmakmuffin]

I find it very interesting (or telling, depending on your preference) that no one official from Bioware, forum mods or devs, has responded to any of the 5-6 threads asking for input in over 2 weeks.

And say what: "We acknowledge that the same tiny cadre of inveterate complainers has made its presence known again over some insignificant non-issue that they think others care about?"

[TUXs]

I fail to see how that could be considered insulting.

 

Is it really that controversial to contend that PVP in this game is mediocre? I think it's a valid observation, though it is just an opinion.

 

The name calling, the hyperbole to make a point and assumptions were insulting.

 

If you think PvP is better in other games, go play them. Nobody is keeping you here. I enjoy it here. I enjoy the pace, the various styles and the "feel" of it here. It needs work, nobody can argue that, but I don't think it's mediocre...I think it's been ignored.

[FriendReferral]

And say what: "We acknowledge that the same tiny cadre of inveterate complainers has made its presence known again over some insignificant non-issue that they think others care about?"

Complainers?

 

Insignificant non-issue?

 

 

Not to sound egotistical or anything, but players have unsubscribed due to some of the topics raised in this open letter. Sure, most of this petition points to PvP, but that's because the PvP system is failing as time passes by while PvE is generally okay.

 

Go visit the PvP forums. Oh wait... how about you just go play some paintball instead?

 

[psandak]

/signed

[AlienEyeTX]

I fail to see how that could be considered insulting. Though it is opinionated, it is widely known that SWTOR is considered some of the worst PVP in the MMO market.

 

To be fair, WoW ranks pretty low on those lists as well.

 

Is it really that controversial to contend that PVP in this game is mediocre? I think it's a valid observation, though it is just an opinion.

 

DAoC, GW2, TSW, EVE usually top the list, Warhammer usually runs around the top as well.

 

Others certainly can disagree and are entitled to their opinions naturally.

 

And possibly this is not the game for some people. Nothing can be all things to all people. Choose what makes you happy and enjoy.

[FriendReferral]

The name calling, the hyperbole to make a point and assumptions were insulting.

 

If you think PvP is better in other games, go play them. Nobody is keeping you here. I enjoy it here. I enjoy the pace, the various styles and the "feel" of it here. It needs work, nobody can argue that, but I don't think it's mediocre...I think it's been ignored.

The PvP here is good in terms of gameplay. Outside of that, it's pretty lackluster and needs a lot more attention than it's gotten. It's sad because basically everyone a part of the PvP community has said it has potential—and that's only part of the problem.

 

For me, I'm also unsubscribing because I'm burnt out. Arenas might change a few things but I'd rather just not stick it out and waste my money on upcoming titles. I'm not interested in Arenas because I agree with what you told me in-game; I watched the Arenas stream last week and Arenas look very disappointing. I'm not interested in the DPS race at all, nor am I anticipated to see the upcoming comps with the best chain stunning, best pressurizers (the lolSmashers), etc.