An Open Letter to BioWare: Improving the Overall State of SWTOR.

[mmjarec]

Atm casual pvp is pointless i quit because all i did was pug and NEVER won. It was ALWAYS 0 to 5 with my team being stupid lemmings. I cant imagine anyone not quitting out of frustration. Putting 0 expertise up against max is stupid id rather it be even and let everyone have none or max and fix or remove hutball

[Covaltage]

Atm casual pvp is pointless i quit because all i did was pug and NEVER won. It was ALWAYS 0 to 5 with my team being stupid lemmings. I cant imagine anyone not quitting out of frustration. Putting 0 expertise up against max is stupid id rather it be even and let everyone have none or max and fix or remove hutball

 

Of course, if you lose every game it must be your teams being bad, and all of your enemies must be BiS. What else could possibly be causing a 0% win rate?

[Andryah]

Has TSW pvp improved then? I found it a complete mess when I tried it.

 

Well there's two kinds of PvP in TSW. Only the persistent faction on faction Fusang zone (what they call a Warzone) is worth a snot IMO. But people claim it's broken.... yada..yada.. par for the course in MMO PvP. Their battleground/arena style PvP (what they call Battlefields) is as bad as every other MMOs IMO.

 

To their credit though.. they do keep adjusting the game to encourage more PvP play... and there are a good number of people that like non-Fusang PvP. And they don't have to deal with class balance cryfests. Problem is.. TSWs results just further demonstrate that PvP players are impossible to please as a broad player base. Too many splintered interests.

 

GW2 was an extremely slick pvp experience, but it couldn't hold me. Turns out 10 skills from a deck just doesn't float my boat, fun to dip into, but I enjoy more on my action bar. So back to swtor and its still fun, apart from the stuff in the petition which is not about turning the game into a different game but mending the broken bits of the game it already is.

 

Yeah.. one would think that GW2 world vs world PvP would be good. I personally found it lacking.

[LordArtemis]

....or, as LordArtemis puts it, ice skating uphill, have at it.

 

That's the third time someone quoted that with my name attached...I can't believe im the only one that says that.

 

It's my bosses favorite saying...I sort of adopted it.

[Andryah]

That's the third time someone quoted that with my name attached...I can't believe im the only one that says that.

 

It's my bosses favorite saying...I sort of adopted it.

 

Apparently your 15 minutes of fame is more persistent then the norm.

 

Im'a give you "best in class" status for that.

[LordArtemis]

This game tried to cater to too many different kinds of players. There are still hardcore PvP'ers and PvE'ers left, but for the most part, I think the ones that are left are leaving this game or highly considering it.

 

I'm not sure if anyone in this thread in the past has said something along the lines of, "If you're a hardcore PvP'er or PvE'er, this game isn't really for you," but if any of you have, for the most part you are correct.

 

I genuinely enjoy the PvP gameplay this game has to offer, especially because it's Star Wars, but it got to the point for me where the changes and lack of attention got to me.

 

I have said that a few times in the past, but not in those exact words.

 

My contention is that this was a game that tried to cater to all and satisfied none. From the beginning it should not have focused on hardcore in the manner of draconian game restrictions and penalties and narrow design aspects (like visual progression and the removal of the mod system), nor should it have put all its eggs in the story basket while failing to develop expected modern MMO features that appeal to hardcore players, like groupfinder and a functioning GTN.

 

It should have focused instead on casual play, launched as a F2P hybrid game with casual features as it's focus IMO. That doesnt mean no end game, but it does mean more focus on alternate gameplay elements and less on raiding and PVP. If you are not going to properly develop PVP and end game/supporting systems for such you had BETTER make sure you hold your casual players.

 

They simply did not do raiding and PVP very well in this game IMO. They did well on story, combat animations and sound. That was not enough to hold either group.

[FriendReferral]

I have said that a few times in the past, but not in those exact words.

 

My contention is that this was a game that tried to cater to all and satisfied none. From the beginning it should not have focused on hardcore in the manner of draconian game restrictions and penalties and narrow design aspects (like visual progression and the removal of the mod system), nor should it have put all its eggs in the story basket while failing to develop expected modern MMO features that appeal to hardcore players, like groupfinder and a functioning GTN.

 

It should have focused instead on casual play, launched as a F2P hybrid game with casual features as it's focus IMO. That doesnt mean no end game, but it does mean more focus on alternate gameplay elements and less on raiding and PVP. If you are not going to properly develop PVP and end game/supporting systems for such you had BETTER make sure you hold your casual players.

 

They simply did not do raiding and PVP very well in this game IMO. They did well on story, combat animations and sound. That was not enough to hold either group.

The combat animations, for the most part, are amazing. Some are better on the Imperial side, but overall I think the BW team did an excellent job developing that.

 

This game is credited as being a "story-driven MMO", but I don't think it can hold either crowd (like you said) because the MMO aspects of this game aren't being handled properly and there's just not enough focus to it (PvE has it way better though).

 

I have 7 55s, but only completed the class story quests on 3 characters. Outside the cinematics, they're just PvE fetch quests which don't offer me any enjoyment whatsoever. I have several other toons because I find the combat for each of them to be unique and fun in their own way (the advanced class I dislike with a passion is the Commando), but never got to them because PvP leveling is just way too slow (I'm a player that likes to get to endgame asap). I don't like questing because I find it absolutely boring. Not interested in the Space mini-game because I find that repetitive just like the questing.

 

What kept me in SWTOR for so long was mainly RWZs (and I was trying my hardest to get there) and how the PvP gameplay was very fun. The gameplay still is fun, but with RWZs being pulled out I feel as if there's no goal for PvP and that it's become more casual with the implementation of Arenas. IMO Arenas are going to make PvP even more awful for the more serious PvP'ers like myself.

[L-RANDLE]

I don't even think their focus is as much of a issue for me, as was the handling of the elimination 8v8 Ranked. Typically when you inconvenience a customer, you offer some sort of compensation as penance. It would go a long way if they offered free transfers when 2.4 comes out. At least then I can go back to my previous PvE server and consider keeping my sub active..

[Andryah]

I don't even think their focus is as much of a issue for me, as was the handling of the elimination 8v8 Ranked. Typically when you inconvenience a customer, you offer some sort of compensation as penance. It would go a long way if they offered free transfers when 2.4 comes out. At least then I can go back to my previous PvE server and consider keeping my sub active..

 

LOL.. OK. So if they compensate you.. you'd get over the removal of ranked WZs and maybe even keep your sub running. Awesome.

 

The problem with those of you protesting and quitting over removal or ranked WZs is that their telemetry has told them that you represent a very small fraction of the total player base. You are small potatoes compared to what they believe they can achieve with Arena launch. You don't have to like it.. but that's what the information shared with us demonstrates.

 

It's not personal you know. They are making a business decision, based on actual telemetry inside the servers. Their responsibility is to the long term health and growth of the MMO, not your personal satisfaction and needs for compensation.

[Roysten]

LOL.. OK. So if they compensate you.. you'd get over the removal of ranked WZs and maybe even keep your sub running. Awesome.

 

The problem with those of you protesting and quitting over removal or ranked WZs is that their telemetry has told them that you represent a very small fraction of the total player base. You are small potatoes compared to what they believe they can achieve with Arena launch. You don't have to like it.. but that's what the information shared with us demonstrates.

 

It's not personal you know. They are making a business decision, based on actual telemetry inside the servers. Their responsibility is to the long term health and growth of the MMO, not your personal satisfaction and needs for compensation.

 

Metrics are a limited tool. People who play madness spec assassins don't pvp, therefore madness spec can safely be made a low priority for pvp. Deception assassins do not do hm operations so this spec is a low priority for pve. So telemetry shows a small fraction of the player base played 8v8 rwzs, the telemetry doesn't show why. They have chosen to bin them instead of making them better matched, more accessible, cross server etc. Replaced with Arenas except arenas are a completely different thing, a flashpoint doesn't replace a raid.

[GalacticKegger]

I have said that a few times in the past, but not in those exact words.

 

My contention is that this was a game that tried to cater to all and satisfied none. From the beginning it should not have focused on hardcore in the manner of draconian game restrictions and penalties and narrow design aspects (like visual progression and the removal of the mod system), nor should it have put all its eggs in the story basket while failing to develop expected modern MMO features that appeal to hardcore players, like groupfinder and a functioning GTN.

 

It should have focused instead on casual play, launched as a F2P hybrid game with casual features as it's focus IMO. That doesnt mean no end game, but it does mean more focus on alternate gameplay elements and less on raiding and PVP. If you are not going to properly develop PVP and end game/supporting systems for such you had BETTER make sure you hold your casual players.

 

They simply did not do raiding and PVP very well in this game IMO. They did well on story, combat animations and sound. That was not enough to hold either group.

Absolutely ... but with a caveat. I'm not sure there is an MMO that's ever had a fully established balls to the wall end game plus killer open world RvR PvP before it's 3rd or 4th anniversary.

 

It is possible that the games which evolved into the benchmarks for these did so by letting the modding community in to add advanced feature sets that gave them hardcore complexity. The content itself wasn't very advanced or ubiquitous, but the ability to customize pretty much every hands-on aspect of gameplay made it feel that way. My prime example would be WoW. Pull mods out of that game and I'll wager it loses a sizeable chunk of its hardcore player base.

 

As a casual player I rate myself as an advanced (just not uber) gamer who simply does not have the time to devote to the countless hours a week it takes to perfect min/max combinations, maximize rotations, farm gear & gear mods, farm mats for the operations biochems and study Youtube videos of boss fights. BTDT ... it's almost a 2nd job. And that's what being hardcore is all about ... a full on commitment to doing whatever it takes to help the team progress.

 

It would be interesting to see what percentage of subscribers consider themselves hardcore versus what percentage of subscribers consider themselves casual; as well as what their definitions are of each. I'm guessing 21 months of back end analytics have already given Bioware those metrics. Which I think is what has positioned the game where it is now.

 

Is that good or bad? The answer to that question is as individually variable as the people who play.

[L-RANDLE]

LOL.. OK. So if they compensate you.. you'd get over the removal of ranked WZs and maybe even keep your sub running. Awesome.

 

The problem with those of you protesting and quitting over removal or ranked WZs is that their telemetry had them that you represent a very small fraction of the total player base. You are small potatoes compared to what they believe they can achieve with Arena launch. You don't have to like it.. but that's what the information shared with us demonstrates.

 

It's not personal you know. They are making a business decision, based on actual telemetry inside the servers. Their responsibility is to the long term health and growth of the MMO, not your personal satisfaction and needs for compensation.

 

Regardless of the amount of players that were impacted, it doesn't lessen the impact itself. Do you believe that something that was borderline bait and switch is ever acceptable? Yes, they are are large company, but its pretty obvious that it wasnt just me or personal. As a company, when you offer something for a price, and then pull the plug with giving a real reason, and don't feel it is necessary to attempt to give any compensation, that breaks two very key business ethics. Consumer confidence and trust. That affects us all.

[LordArtemis]

Is that good or bad? The answer to that question is as individually variable as the people who play.

 

Absolutely golden words GK.

[LordArtemis]

Regardless of the amount of players that were impacted, it doesn't lessen the impact itself. Do you believe that something that was borderline bait and switch is ever acceptable? Yes, they are are large company, but its pretty b

 

Whether you or I, or the people in this thread, or even this forum I might contend think it is acceptable or not is irrelevant at the end of the day.

 

It is whether or not the mass playerbase at bay considers it acceptable. Only metrics and performance will tell, revenue information and retention, and only Bioware knows those numbers for sure.

 

One could speculate that it is something that would not be acceptable by the masses, and one could also speculate that most folks probably do not care, and both contentions would be valid IMO since they are based on the same lack of information but probably fed by personal experience and insight.

 

Therefore, IMO, it's hard to say who is right about that. I tend to think it is not as serious an issue as folks contend...but that is just me, and I could be entirely wrong.

 

We actually will probably know soon enough.

[Andryah]

Do you believe that something that was borderline bait and switch is ever acceptable?

 

I believe that the use of "borderline" in connection with "bait and switch" demonstrates that you know they did nothing wrong. You just don't like what they did.

 

Again.. it's a pragmatic business decision that does not favor you personally, and a minority of other players. It's not personal, so stop trying to make it so IMO.

[L-RANDLE]

Well lets hear it..

How many people here think it would be acceptable to pay for something that you don't get?

 

You guys keep confusing the issue. This is somewhat focused on the PvP portion of the playerbase. I am more than sure the majority of the PvP player base has an issue as to how this was handled otherwise we wouldn't be here talking about it...

[Gnoblesse]

The problem with those of you protesting and quitting over removal or ranked WZs is that their telemetry has told them that you represent a very small fraction of the total player base. You are small potatoes compared to what they believe they can achieve with Arena launch. You don't have to like it.. but that's what the information shared with us demonstrates.

 

It's not personal you know. They are making a business decision, based on actual telemetry inside the servers. Their responsibility is to the long term health and growth of the MMO, not your personal satisfaction and needs for compensation.

 

Here's the thing. Is what you're saying true? I'd say, most likely yes. If we're talking about a few hundred people out of thousands, that could likely be an inconsequential number as far as BW is concerned.

 

With that being said, even if an *individual* member is inconsequential, I don't think that actions which make them feel inconsequential are generally the way to go especially if they can be avoided with minimal expense or effort. And regardless of what it's labeled as, the removal of 8v8 ranked after people paid to transfer to play it had the effect of making people feel inconsequential, like their subs didn't matter.

 

Regarding the removal of ranked 8v8, I think there are a couple of ways this could have been handled that would have lessened the impact significantly.

 

1)Leave ranked 8v8 intact, but make it PERFECTLY clear that the focus and development time is going to be focused solely on 4v4 arenas for the foreseeable future, due to their appeal to the larger player base. This might have caused some minor grumbling, but likely not on the scale of entire PvP guilds disbanding/leaving the game entirely. People grumble about it in the future? They were already told how it was going to go, it was their choice to continue playing.

 

 

2)If the above was not possible for whatever reason, then I do think that allowing (free) transfers back to original servers for those who had been shown to have participated in a ranked match since the introduction of transfers would also have lessened the impact. If the player quit anyway, zero money lost. If the player decided to go back to their old server and play with people they knew there - the only loss is the money the player *might* have paid to transfer back; the gain is the continuing subscription.

 

What #2 above would have shown these subscribers is that "yes, we're aware that many of you paid to transfer to play a game option that will no longer be available to you. We regret that this may have caused you inconvenience, but we'd like you to stick around."

 

In the absence of either of these - or a better suggestion someone else might come up with..what some people are left with IS a feeling that their subs don't matter. Which may be true, but....am I crazy for thinking that leaving a customer with that impression should be avoided if possible? Was it *really* impossible to do either option 1 or option 2?

[mmjarec]

Of course, if you lose every game it must be your teams being bad, and all of your enemies must be BiS. What else could possibly be causing a 0% win rate?

 

The fact they are all usually all face roll classes and the fact most ppl i see are bots that are ruining the game

[Rafaman]

So Eric will be back on Monday and I doubt he has seen any of this. Hopefully his time away is truly time away.

 

We should make a concerted effort to make sure he sees this then. That way we can truly see what is what.

 

Does Eric answer PMs?

[Marrwen]

/sign

[FriendReferral]

So Eric will be back on Monday and I doubt he has seen any of this. Hopefully his time away is truly time away.

 

We should make a concerted effort to make sure he sees this then. That way we can truly see what is what.

 

Does Eric answer PMs?

Yes, you usually does answer PMs. I guess just wait till the end of Sunday so it'll be at the top of his inbox when get logs on Monday morning.

 

[mmjarec]

Hate to say it but firefall has a way better engine and its still in beta itz pretty fun too. Especially when theres nothing left to do in swtor

[Mercurial_Harpy]

So Eric will be back on Monday and I doubt he has seen any of this. Hopefully his time away is truly time away.

 

I think the fact that Bioware has one guy responsible for responding to PR-related player concerns on the forums, with no support to be expected when that one guy is away, speaks volumes as to where the players are on the company's priority list when communication is concerned. This is NOT an indictment of Eric, mind you; I'm sure he does what he can with the tools allotted to him.

 

If they cared in the least, someone would have responded by now. Just sayin...

[ImperialSun]

Hate to say it but firefall has a way better engine and its still in beta itz pretty fun too. Especially when theres nothing left to do in swtor

 

Wait...what? You mean Firefall, the game where the devs have removed PvP from the game as it was utilised by 3% of the player base?

 

GG....

 

Driz

[mmjarec]

I think the fact that Bioware has one guy responsible for responding to PR-related player concerns on the forums, with no support to be expected when that one guy is away, speaks volumes as to where the players are on the company's priority list when communication is concerned. This is NOT an indictment of Eric, mind you; I'm sure he does what he can with the tools allotted to him.

 

If they cared in the least, someone would have responded by now. Just sayin...

 

Yeah no doubt id hate to disturb him and have him do his job during weekdays. Obviously its just a job to them and not a passion or they would be happy to work constantly if you love your product