Please switch the engine now before its too late..

[okkestarwars]

Games typically do not update their engines if there is no real reason to do it (basically if the game is not working for the majority of the target audience).

 

Look at WoW. That engine sure could use a bit of an overhaul. Will it happen? Nope. Too expensive and it's still working for what it was built. They'll sooner make WoW 2 or something similar. If you're going with a new engine, might as well go all the way and make a new game.

 

Forget replacing the engine, lets talk optimization because this has not been working out for them either. You brought up wow and it has been optimized allot of times over the years. Blizzard really has done a awesome job with that game keeping it fresh along time. My fears is that Swtor will fade away if its not getting performance optimizations.

[JPryde]

But the majority of the cost building this game where all the studio recording voice overs.

Where did you get a detailed listing of the cost distribution?

Granted, getting all the voice actors was surely costing more per hour than a programmers cost or a designers cost. But there are thousands of hours of authors, programmers and designers work in this project.

 

The voice acting is not cheap, but I sincerely doubt that it was the biggest part of the budget.

[DKNS]

Where did you get a detailed listing of the cost distribution?

Granted, getting all the voice actors was surely costing more per hour than a programmers cost or a designers cost. But there are thousands of hours of authors, programmers and designers work in this project.

 

The voice acting is not cheap, but I sincerely doubt that it was the biggest part of the budget.

 

BW has officially said (can't link it to you now) that voice-overs had no impact on the budget allocation of the game, meaning that they were very cheap to begin with. Just shows that this guy (okkestarwars) has no clue what he is talking about.

 

Ok here's the extract

 

"[Voice acting] was a known entity, and cost was quite low in comparison to the cost of the rest of the project." In other words, BioWare had been there and done that with voice acting already in its other games and budgeted accordingly. However, BioWare did not have a tested platform to build an MMO. Much of the cost was funneled toward creating an engine that supported a team of over 300 people working on it at the same time and adding choice and consequence to the MMO story. "Don't be scared about adding voice over and cool cinematic content," he advised his audience, "but do be careful about adding lots of choice with consequence because that adds to QA cost and development cost and makes it hard to design everything.

Edited October 30, 2013 by DKNS

[Gaudrath]

Forget replacing the engine, lets talk optimization because this has not been working out for them either. You brought up wow and it has been optimized allot of times over the years. Blizzard really has done a awesome job with that game keeping it fresh along time. My fears is that Swtor will fade away if its not getting performance optimizations.

 

Optimization is completely doable, but given the situation it will be done in small steps. As I said, every engine can be optimized. Not maybe to support massive new features, but to work better with existing ones, sure.

 

I think in this case, it's a question of manpower. Ideally you would have a separate team working just on optimization and put enough people in it to keep things going smoothly. Not sure Bioware has that in place and if they don't I blame EA because they pay for things.

[okkestarwars]

BW has officially said (can't link it to you now) that voice-overs had no impact on the budget allocation of the game, meaning that they were very cheap to begin with. Just shows that this guy (okkestarwars) has no clue what he is talking about.

 

Ok here's the extract

 

"[Voice acting] was a known entity, and cost was quite low in comparison to the cost of the rest of the project." In other words, BioWare had been there and done that with voice acting already in its other games and budgeted accordingly. However, BioWare did not have a tested platform to build an MMO. Much of the cost was funneled toward creating an engine that supported a team of over 300 people working on it at the same time and adding choice and consequence to the MMO story. "Don't be scared about adding voice over and cool cinematic content," he advised his audience, "but do be careful about adding lots of choice with consequence because that adds to QA cost and development cost and makes it hard to design everything.

 

I followed the development of this game extensively and beta tested Swtor, and i can swear in some dev report them saying this full voiceover prodject they where going for was the largest ever made. You think that's cheap? Are you *********** kidding me! Having actors reading god knows how many lines of dialog. I can't give you a exact figure on the cost but it should be a hefty sum. Im sure they wont work just from the kindness of their hearts.

 

So what if the voiceover was not as costly as i thought? You use this to discredit the *********** way i critic the engine?

Edited October 30, 2013 by okkestarwars

[DKNS]

I followed the development of this game extensively and beta tested Swtor, and i can swear in some dev report them saying this full voiceover prodject they where going for was the largest ever made. You think that's cheap? Are you *********** kidding me! Having actors reading god knows how many lines of dialog. I can't give you a exact figure on the cost but it should be a hefty sum. Im sure they wont work just from the kindness of their hearts.

 

So what if the voiceover was not as costly as i thought? You use this to discredit the *********** way i critic the engine?

 

No i used that as an example of how you like to talk stuff you have no idea of.

[okkestarwars]

No i used that as an example of how you like to talk stuff you have no idea of.

 

I haven't claimed to be a computer wiz, nor did i start this thread. All i know is that the game is clunky and unresponsive in crowded areas.

 

I want game improvements not new pants in some cartel box. So i'm not qualified to have a opinion and as a costumer have demands that the game should actually deliver on what it *********** promised me when i preorder it?

[JPryde]

Well.. I got what I was promised in beta and for my pre order. Sure, I would like to see more, but I am realistic enough to accept limitations of design (especially since I am working on 3D engines myself... I got the most respect for MMO-developers).

 

And would you maybe be able to make a post where no word is hit by the profanity filter? Your arguments are not growing stronger if your words are bleeped out.

[ZionHalcyon]

Top to bottom, what a pointless thread.

 

 

Not that anyone is going to read this post all the way at page 69, but here's a clue for you folks whining about the engine:

 

When the game is ALREADY OUT, it is TOO LATE.

 

Yes, I know you can point to the one or two examples out of the entire history of MMOs where the engine was redone, and this makes you think that this can be done at any time just because you want it to happen, "before it's too late" *snicker*.

 

However, in the 2 cases I can remember this happening, the games were non-starters. They launched and fell flat, and the engine upgrade was to save a game that fell flat out the gate in the first place.

 

Regardless of how much you hate the cartel shop, regardless of how much the sub only SWTOR at the start didn't end up living up to estimates (despite a strong start), the fact is this game made too much $$$ and is not in any danger of going anywhere no matter what some e-rage forum jockey says. The game is making cash with the cartel shop and subs, has stabilized, and there is no earthy reason for them to re-invest in a new engine. It just doesn't make any business sense. The whole point of the engine in the first place was to make sure the game could be played on a wide range of computers, not just some super elite gaming PCs.

 

So please, save the rage, save the complaints. The engine isn't crytek or frostbite, and it was never meant to be, and those of us around since development knew this going in. If you want a better looking mmo, go find one or make one yourself. And spare us the tired, uneducated armchair developer rants.

Edited October 30, 2013 by ZionHalcyon

[AlexDougherty]

Top to bottom, what a pointless thread.

 

Not that anyone is going to read this post all the way at page 69, but here's a clue for you folks whining about the engine:

 

When the game is ALREADY OUT, it is TOO LATE.

 

Yes, games don't change their engines without a very good reason, and this thread doesn't have a good reason, just people saying "we want this engine instead".

[Arkerus]

Yes, games don't change their engines without a very good reason, and this thread doesn't have a good reason, just people saying "we want this engine instead".

 

You can tell just how out of touch some people are when they claim a bunch of interns an do it.

 

If anyone thinks that taking the game down for a year to re-write the entire game in a new engine isn't the business version of suicide they are either purposely trolling or delusional.

[Prototypemind]

Definitely feel that we need to voice our opinion when there are issues, but I'm seeing a lot of complaining over nothing now. There have definitely been performance boosts over the last few updates and more than noticeable graphics tweaks recently. Obviously the issues are being worked on. The mess that was the Czerka daily area has been put to bed, Oricon hasn't had any major problems that I've seen. The engine is not broken, and overall the game does a good job of rendering the action with up to nearly 200 unique characters and their companions existing in the same space in some instances.

 

Valid criticisms are one thing, but I'm just seeing a lot of crying for the sake of crying now.

[agamemnon-]

Judging by your previous posts in every thread I could find, I would say you are the staunchest defender of even the most inane blunders by this dev team.

 

There might be a reason for that. I did a Google search of the name. Found some interesting pages with links to posts and other things. Circumstantial at best, but it raises questions.

[Digimanbyte_ID]

How is this kid able to present a better Nar Shadaa using Cryengine3?

 

 

Seriously, ***? Get your act together!

 

Someone at bioware just needs to pull the plug and quickly switch engines. Sure you have to pay the cryengine license, but you will at least have a steady stream of students who can easily adapt SWToR into the next generation.

 

It is either that or watch this game slowly die. Nothing more to be said as the evidence is there, we are down to 4 servers with decent pops!

 

The current engine is a joke and anyone who says otherwise is a fool, this game has been out for 2 years and the only thing that keeps me and others coming back is the star wars name. The problem is that at this point the IP is being bastardized by a complete lack of self respect on the part of the current dev team. Please take the time to seriously accept that the engine is a farce and that a relaunch of the game under a newer engine is the only way out of the current mess.

 

 

(The real joke is on the trolls who defend this game on the forum, because ultimately I take solace in knowing Disney will eventually find that the quality of this product is garbage and will give one of their own studios the license.)

 

Here is a summary of the problem: C/P from PvP petition.. credit goes to Xorcist

 

 

Name: Xorcist on Sep 25, 2013

Comments: Was on POT5. Was a subscriber until August 27th 2013. No longer playing SWTOR, and have not logged in for close to two months now. Don't plan on logging in anytime soon. Reasons for leaving after supporting the SWTOR project since October 2008: Death by a thousand paper cuts. One of the very last straws was learning that nothing changed when Revan's gear was supposed to be changed to appear more like the classic Revan that we know with better textures+costume design, and not a poorly rendered Inquisitor rip off. The other last straw was the Collectors Edition Vendor did not receive the attention it was promised since the servers went live. The Cartel Market received all the attention and it was clear that BioWare did not give a flying **** about their loyal subscribers and constant stream of posts battering the company for putting the Cartel Market first for many many many months. BioWare defaulted on the agreement that we the consumer would purchase the Collectors Edition and they would regularly supply the vendor with goodies. As we know that it is possible to do so because BioWare has shown us they can by example of the Cartel Market and it's regular updates. They have chosen rather to treat their loyal customers like third class citizens. That of course is unacceptable, and subject to persecution. They charge extra real money to monthly paying Subscribers for things like the barber shop features, emotes, special holiday offerings rather than through in game quests, and one time use color dyes at approximately $20 per unit. Not to mention luring individuals to purchase insane quantities of gambling packs for a chance to get that very rare and special item or dye. Costing a single individual approximately $150 in packs perhaps more depending on the person. BioWare depends on the Cartel Market to carry them on but the Cartel Market is just a life support system keeping the patient (SWTOR) alive however, in a comatose state. This is no way to live. The game engine can not support large quantities of players at once in the same area, The game engine does not like to be touched or modified in any way. Gordon Walton needed the Hero engine because it would get the work done faster and therefore meet tight deadlines. Unfortunately the engine was not ready nor was it tested. Now what is in place running the SWTOR game is something I can only describe as a Frankenstein game engine. Bugs on top of bugs that seem never ending. No server transfer capability. It seems as though features that should be able to be added relatively quickly within reason take an eternity to see the light of day. That coupled with a very basic and stone age style of character creation for a 2011 MMO is extremely sad. The options available to create your character are mostly variations of each other with a very slight difference between them. There is no thought or creativity to the designs that were created for the various different colored humans (species). The options available to change the head, complexion, hair etc.. are 99% ugly and undesirable choices. There was so much that could've been done with this and they decided to leave it as basic and void of creative design as possible. The worlds are super basic in design. The rocks and rock formations look atrocious. The geographical details in the environments are incredibly basic using a cut and paste type of design. Nothing truly separates one world from the other in geographical design. Textures are beyond amateurish and nowhere near professional quality. Landscapes are all unimaginative and in no way inspire awe on any part of any world. Sound music/ambiance/effects quality is not Star Wars worthy. It does not put the player in the environment or make them feel like they are truly in a Star Wars universe. ALL Character animations are static and basic right through to all species and classes. They appear as though, again, an amateur designed them. Colors/light/shade on the worlds and the environment are again amateurishly done. There is no light and shade to speak of. We are given a light source that is not there. Imaginatively created light sources. "Light" sabers do not emit a strong enough source of light and is very square in nature when pressed near a wall. Badly designed light source all around. Areas are again atrociously shaded as though an amateur did the work. The Costume designer(s) should be fired as they obviously do not know what belongs in a Star Wars universe and what does not. I am certain they have never seen the movies or had any contact with any related material concerning Star Wars. Appalling and embarrassing should cover the costume designs in SWTOR from launch to present. Jawa's for example, do not appear nor sound like Jawa's are supposed to in SWTOR. Cantina designs are ridiculous and boring. Music is unappealing and quite honestly stupid sounding, even for a sci-fi fantasy surrounding. With so many disappointments and flaws that have gone live I don't think anyone at that studio has what it takes to create memorable Star Wars experience in an MMO. The teams that created the Force Unleashed series did it right. They were a very talented bunch when it came to design and execution. All of the mentioned above Needs to be addressed to create a positive and memorable long lasting Star Wars MMORPG. Doing so by hiring new designers who know how to design a living breathing Star Wars universe, and also re-designing the game engine from the bottom up is what is expected by a loyal subscriber of this game. In addition to not being taken advantage of and be shown that Subscribers continued business is truly important and not to be taken lightly as it has been since the launch of the Free to Play model. A one time appreciation gift is insulting to a loyal Subscriber. What about next month and the month after that? EVERYTHING... I've seen and experienced through this hollow journey has shown me that BioWare Austin doesn't care about it's customers past whatever they can rip from their pockets and take advantage of them for a virtual piece of candy. Their greed has no bounds or shame. They have become so truly disgusting as a game studio it sickens my stomach just thinking about it.

 

 

/rant

 

What sickens me to my stomach is rant. Its obviously biased, when playing this game the music had a terrific effect on cutscenes and in the game it felt special during certain points instead of the same droning you would see on other MMO's.

 

Then goes on to describe the graphics which are pretty great for its time. Does nothing to mention the story, or the Fremium aspect of the game where you literally get 50 levels worth of content for a price of a download, no money down what so ever.

 

The only things that rung true was the bugs in this game and the engine. Which I agree is atrocious, the hero engine was a mistake to begin with, I don't even think time was a part of the factor for why he picked it. Its probably EA shoving it in his face saying thats all he can get and make us millions in 2 years.

 

Look at the company now, its facing a change or die off scenario which they are doing. Secondly like him the collectors edition people have left. Is it no wonder why they are supporting the Cartel Market over these spoiled children, you have plenty of stuff in it and you still want the world. You no longer have to pay to play this game any more. So no you don't get free stuff when the developers realize they can't get money for it to support the game.

 

You are to few in number and you have plenty already, be grateful they kept this up for so long. That Vendor is waste of resources.

 

Lastly its obvious the game wasn't for him, he only wanted Star wars from the movies, not the new brand the old republic. Also Disney doesn't own this title, its only in name only and they have no power over this IP other then to force them to change somethings, which would make them lose more money then gain. At least they get paid off for doing nothing.

 

All in all do you really think this game is terrible? Then don't play it, numbers speak loader then whining.

[migeto]

As a game designer myself, I find OPs ignorance to be hilarious

[AlexDougherty]

And would you maybe be able to make a post where no word is hit by the profanity filter? Your arguments are not growing stronger if your words are bleeped out.

 

Nope, profanity filter just blocks sets of letters, since these letters occur within non-offensive words, bits of words get blocked, the only way to block them properly is to create an AI which detects words and context, which is decades away, and a waste of proper AI (yes, I know the definition changes so much the term is meaningless)

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

the hero engine was a mistake to begin with.

 

yeah but mistakes are there to be corrected and probably they are working on it.

The real mistake was not bringing the original devs on board or working in a way that they can accept updates from them.

It branched off into some Teenage Mutant Hero Engine

[Freeyayo]

yeah but mistakes are there to be corrected and probably they are working on it.

The real mistake was not bringing the original devs on board or working in a way that they can accept updates from them.

It branched off into some Teenage Mutant Hero Engine

 

You're missing the point. You cannot "correct" the biggest issues with the Hero engine. The only way to fix it is to replace the entire thing with a better one like Unreal. And yes obviously this is a massive undertaking, but it is the only way.

[Zoom_VI]

You're missing the point. You cannot "correct" the biggest issues with the Hero engine. The only way to fix it is to replace the entire thing with a better one like Unreal. And yes obviously this is a massive undertaking, but it is the only way.

 

Except swtor's engine has been so massively modified from the original hero engine, that you can't really say it is the hero engine at all, so lord knows what they could do with it.

 

Also nice necro

Edited March 27, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[insertsmiley]

There's lots of unrealised potential for this game using the current engine I think.

I do miss the freedoms that SWG had for crafting and hunting random spawns for shiny things and the community feel of the housing(picking a planet and building a town with shops and the like), and I have no idea what 'engine' they used to achieve that.

But overall SWTOR has impressed me. I played LOTRO for a while, and that doesn't hold a candle to this game.

It's unfair to claim that the game is poor because of the 'engine' they use.

Anyone heard the noise seasick Steve can make on his one string guitar compared to some 6 string players?

[DarthDymond]

You're missing the point. You cannot "correct" the biggest issues with the Hero engine. The only way to fix it is to replace the entire thing with a better one like Unreal. And yes obviously this is a massive undertaking, but it is the only way.

Oh jezzus, of all the threads to necro... Here we go again.

 

inb4 round 2 of "Quick, get some interns to copy-paste the engine."

[HoboWithAStick]

There's lots of unrealised potential for this game using the current engine I think.

I do miss the freedoms that SWG had for crafting and hunting random spawns for shiny things and the community feel of the housing(picking a planet and building a town with shops and the like), and I have no idea what 'engine' they used to achieve that.

But overall SWTOR has impressed me. I played LOTRO for a while, and that doesn't hold a candle to this game.

It's unfair to claim that the game is poor because of the 'engine' they use.

Anyone heard the noise seasick Steve can make on his one string guitar compared to some 6 string players?

 

What has impressed you about this game and how the engine works??

 

The fact its so limited you can't have chat bubbles or if you have a high end video card you can't run the game in anything but full screen windowed because evertime you move the graphics stutter.

[jedip_enguin]

Nice to see one of the pound for pound dumbest threads on the forum rise from the depths...

[Arkerus]

Nice to see one of the pound for pound dumbest threads on the forum rise from the depths...

 

Agreed. Yes, this is bumping it, I know.

 

But post for post, this is the worst thread in the forums by many magnitudes of ignorance.

[insertsmiley]

What has impressed you about this game and how the engine works??

 

The fact its so limited you can't have chat bubbles or if you have a high end video card you can't run the game in anything but full screen windowed because evertime you move the graphics stutter.

 

Chat bubbles define a 'Good game' ?

I think you have game and 'comics' confused.