Please switch the engine now before its too late..

[okkestarwars]

Im going to keep this ****er alive

[Thylbanus]

Im going to keep this ****er alive

 

You do that, 'cuz the last person posted 5 minutes before you did. Good job!

[okkestarwars]

You do that, 'cuz the last person posted 5 minutes before you did. Good job!

 

Thank you

[Dodia]

The engine is a joke. This game is hideous looking (imo). It just looks...awful for a modern MMO. Plus the insane amount of game-breaking bugs I've experienced since I started playing again a month ago. I'm only here on the forums tonight trying to find a solution to yet another bug I'm experiencing with a Makeb daily.

 

If it wasn't for the actual content (which is good), and the Star Wars IP, I would be long, long gone.

 

I see BioWare doing the same stuff that Blizz does. I don't understand why MMO developers don't seem to give a hoot about their product any longer. They just watch subs dwindle and do nothing about it.

 

WHY?

[AshlaBoga]

The engine is a joke. This game is hideous looking (imo). It just looks...awful for a modern MMO. Plus the insane amount of game-breaking bugs I've experienced since I started playing again a month ago. I'm only here on the forums tonight trying to find a solution to yet another bug I'm experiencing with a Makeb daily.

 

If it wasn't for the actual content (which is good), and the Star Wars IP, I would be long, long gone.

 

I see BioWare doing the same stuff that Blizz does. I don't understand why MMO developers don't seem to give a hoot about their product any longer. They just watch subs dwindle and do nothing about it.

 

WHY?

 

Graphics are nice on max settings, especially since they did that update a couple months back.

Still, decrease the settings from Very High to Medium and suddenly the game looks bad.

[Thylbanus]

The engine is a joke. This game is hideous looking (imo). It just looks...awful for a modern MMO. Plus the insane amount of game-breaking bugs I've experienced since I started playing again a month ago. I'm only here on the forums tonight trying to find a solution to yet another bug I'm experiencing with a Makeb daily.

 

If it wasn't for the actual content (which is good), and the Star Wars IP, I would be long, long gone.

 

I see BioWare doing the same stuff that Blizz does. I don't understand why MMO developers don't seem to give a hoot about their product any longer. They just watch subs dwindle and do nothing about it.

 

WHY?

 

Show me one that looks better. Conclusively.

[Drake_Hound]

The engine is a joke. This game is hideous looking (imo). It just looks...awful for a modern MMO. Plus the insane amount of game-breaking bugs I've experienced since I started playing again a month ago. I'm only here on the forums tonight trying to find a solution to yet another bug I'm experiencing with a Makeb daily.

 

If it wasn't for the actual content (which is good), and the Star Wars IP, I would be long, long gone.

 

I see BioWare doing the same stuff that Blizz does. I don't understand why MMO developers don't seem to give a hoot about their product any longer. They just watch subs dwindle and do nothing about it.

 

WHY?

 

I think it is time for a new computer for you , sorry cause even on my old rig graphics looks great !

so you can upgrade next year , which most people have to do anyway ..

So start saving , pr give up mmo games .

[Drake_Hound]

Graphics are nice on max settings, especially since they did that update a couple months back.

Still, decrease the settings from Very High to Medium and suddenly the game looks bad.

 

you really have to have shadows on , without shadows on it looks horrible .

[spectreclees]

you really have to have shadows on , without shadows on it looks horrible .

 

Which is hard to do because the shadows are broken. A lot of people in this thread are just spewing out nonsense because the game looks great. But they don't really understand the intricacies of how an engine works and operates or what it means when people say it's bad.

 

I think many will agree it isn't the best. The engine doesn't mean we are saying the graphics look bad.

[Drake_Hound]

Which is hard to do because the shadows are broken. A lot of people in this thread are just spewing out nonsense because the game looks great. But they don't really understand the intricacies of how an engine works and operates or what it means when people say it's bad.

 

I think many will agree it isn't the best. The engine doesn't mean we are saying the graphics look bad.

 

and a lot of people don't understand even a car engine anymore !

seeing only a bunch of parts !

 

So what else is new , a lot of people don't understand this game engine is jurry rigged (if they can understand the word) from a alpha engine , so deviated so much , that support and other stuff isn't even compatible anymore .

 

Let take example the UNIX engine , good engine a lot of compatibility , now somebody decides to take a alpha engine from it , and decides to modify it in a such way that , it totally is something new .

Means all the work of other unix people are none compatible anymore .

A lot of the issue of this game is currently that the small team currently doesn't even know what the original engineers did , there is sometimes not even guidelines , or explanation how they did stuff .

[Kayin]

I have to agree that something needs to be done to the engine. I don't know it it is just me, but I feel that the more content keeps coming in, the more serious the problems get. My PC was ok with this game in the beginning of it, but now it cries for help when I play SWTOR.

[DKNS]

Oh god why are people still bumping this? Is it really that hard to understand how this will never ever happen? Just suggesting a change in Engine in the meetings at BW would probably get you kicked out. The engine isn't perfect by any means but a change is not happening unless they go the FFXIV ARR way in which case we would be out of SWTOR for 2-3 years not to mention they would have to invest another 200 Million (no idea where they used the first 200M but i will assume the same for a remake) in the game which is again just crazy seeing how the game is just about doing OK.

 

P.S. Except for the insane clippings, the game's graphics are amazing at Ultra for a MMO. People who are complaining need to upgrade their wooden PCs. Only Tera looks better that this imo but then again Tera uses a completely different art-style in a totally different setting. And it's not even that taxing, i use a single GTX560 (not even a Ti) along with an i5-2500k and yet i get between 50-60 FPS (VSync enabled) on ULTRA.

Edited October 30, 2013 by DKNS

[okkestarwars]

Oh god why are people still bumping this? Is it really that hard to understand how this will never ever happen? Just suggesting a change in Engine in the meetings at BW would probably get you kicked out. The engine isn't perfect by any means but a change is not happening unless they go the FFXIV ARR way in which case we would be out of SWTOR for 2-3 years not to mention they would have to invest another 200 Million (no idea where they used the first 200M but i will assume the same for a remake) in the game which is again just crazy seeing how the game is just about doing OK.

 

P.S. Except for the insane clippings, the game's graphics are amazing at Ultra for a MMO. People who are complaining need to upgrade their wooden PCs. Only Tera looks better that this imo but then again Tera uses a completely different art-style in a totally different setting. And it's not even that taxing, i use a single GTX560 (not even a Ti) along with an i5-2500k and yet i get between 50-60 FPS (VSync enabled) on ULTRA.

 

 

Why defend this **** with teeth and claw? How do you know the cost of upgrading/fixing/changing? Bioware has not said a *********** word admitting there is a problem and they are working on a better solution.

 

We just see this old horse getting a larger and larger burden and it did start to protest very early on when you could not open your bloody char screen and jump at the same time because that would freeze the game .

 

And as i posted earlier in this thread the Ilum debacle is really is embarrassing, because it's like you go to the local car dealership and he sell's you this very nice sports wagon, and on paper it looks awesome! Its only when you actually try and start the car you see the car dealer running for his life with your money and when you pop the hood you find a *********** hamster wheel instead of a engine designed for its propose.

 

Pants down and pissed off you fool yourself that the car might not run well, but sure is a beauty to behold

Edited October 30, 2013 by okkestarwars

[DKNS]

Why defend this **** with teeth and claw? How do you know the cost of upgrading/fixing/changing? Bioware has not said a *********** word admitting there is a problem and they are working on a better solution.

 

We just see this old horse getting a larger and larger burden and it did start to protest very early on when you could not open your bloody char screen and jump at the same time because that would freeze the game .

 

And as i posted earlier in this thread the Ilum debacle is really is embarrassing, because it's like you go to the local car dealership and he sell's you this very nice sports wagon, and on paper it looks awesome! Its only when you actually try and start the car you see the car dealer running for his life with your money and when you pop the hood you find a *********** hamster wheel instead of a engine designed for its propose.

 

Whether BW says anything or not on this is irrelevant. Anyone with even a small sliver of common sense and a small knowledge of game engines will know that what you are asking is beyond ridiculous. I already said that the game engine isn't perfect so i am not defending it in anyway, but then again if you would have the capacity to read you would have read the multitude of replies already explaining why such a thing isn't possible. The only thing they can do is take down the game and make a new one from scratch, only thing they will be able to use are voice-overs from this game. Everything and i mean all the game animations, planets, etc. would have to be rebuild on the new engine which is equivalent to building a new game.

 

So, just let this damned thread go away. What people are asking is just impossible.

Edited October 30, 2013 by DKNS

[Gaudrath]

Saying as someone who has plenty of programming experience, trust me, complete engine replacement is a VERY demanding job. The only MMO company I know of which even remotely approached this is CCP with EvE Online, and all they did was update their graphics engine to look prettier.

 

And the reason they were able to do this is because they had custom built their own engine and made it possible to upgrade individual parts and functionality, something which isn't always doable.

 

So basically, a new engine in this case means making a new game. The only thing you could keep (and even that would require format updating) are art assets, sound, textures and models. Everything else would have to be reworked to fit the new engine.

[DKNS]

Saying as someone who has plenty of programming experience, trust me, complete engine replacement is a VERY demanding job. The only MMO company I know of which even remotely approached this is CCP with EvE Online, and all they did was update their graphics engine to look prettier.

 

And the reason they were able to do this is because they had custom built their own engine and made it possible to upgrade individual parts and functionality, something which isn't always doable.

 

So basically, a new engine in this case means making a new game. The only thing you could keep (and even that would require format updating) are art assets, sound, textures and models. Everything else would have to be reworked to fit the new engine.

 

I think i have seen somewhere about people saying that this engine (an alpha version of the Hero engine) is not compatible with the current Hero engine iterations so that throws even updating it out of the window.

[okkestarwars]

Whether BW says anything or not on this is irrelevant. Anyone with even a small sliver of common sense and a small knowledge of game engines will know that what you are asking is beyond ridiculous. I already said that the game engine isn't perfect so i am not defending it in anyway, but then again if you would have the capacity to read you would have read the multitude of replies already explaining why such a thing isn't possible. The only thing they can do is take down the game and make a new one from scratch, only thing they will be able to use are voice-overs from this game. Everything and i mean all the game animations, planets, etc. would have to be rebuild on the new engine which is equivalent to building a new game.

 

So, just let this damned thread go away. What people are asking is just impossible.

 

So your saying just because it would be demanding and costly for Bioware i should not even dare to speak my mind?

 

Tell you what buddy, in the real world investments and development costs *********** lots of money and this is no indie company. They promised a product and failed in delivering what was promised. They did not set out to be mediocre with this product, they where aiming to be the best naturally we should expect a premium product.

 

You feel it's just dandy and fine because you have come to accept it by lowering your expectations and standards.

With the inital hype and population this game had it went in the right direction, then people started to see it's flaws and now 2 years into the game we still see some of these flaws.

 

Why are you ok with this? Are just a guy who buys a broken watch and is thrilled that it at least shows the right time twice aday?

[okkestarwars]

Saying as someone who has plenty of programming experience, trust me, complete engine replacement is a VERY demanding job. The only MMO company I know of which even remotely approached this is CCP with EvE Online, and all they did was update their graphics engine to look prettier.

 

And the reason they were able to do this is because they had custom built their own engine and made it possible to upgrade individual parts and functionality, something which isn't always doable.

 

So basically, a new engine in this case means making a new game. The only thing you could keep (and even that would require format updating) are art assets, sound, textures and models. Everything else would have to be reworked to fit the new engine.

 

I'm sure your right, and i think AO did a re haul of it's engine back in the days as well. (don't quote me on that)

Nothing is ever easy but if this game is going to keep evolving it can't be standing in quicksand.

 

You need a solid foundation and this simply is not good. How are they going to release improvements when apparently something as standard as bloody chat bubbles are to complex and demanding?

Edited October 30, 2013 by okkestarwars

[Gaudrath]

So your saying just because it would be demanding and costly for Bioware i should not even dare to speak my mind?

 

Tell you what buddy, in the real world investments and development costs *********** lots of money and this is no indie company. They promised a product and failed in delivering what was promised. They did not set out to be mediocre with this product, they where aiming to be the best naturally we should expect a premium product.

 

You feel it's just dandy and fine because you have come to accept it by lowering your expectations and standards.

With the inital hype and population this game had it went in the right direction, then people started to see it's flaws and now 2 years into the game we still see some of these flaws.

 

Why are you ok with this? Are just a guy who buys a broken watch and is thrilled that it at least shows the right time twice aday?

 

He's just being realistic. With the way the game engine is designed and the way EA operates, there is exactly zero chance we will see a complete engine replacement. It would require opening up a new parallel development team which would work exclusively on porting the existing game into a new engine.

 

That would cost a lot of money. Not as much as the original game, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least 40% of the original budget would have to be invested into it. You have to purchase a new engine license, then you have to adapt that engine to your needs - complex work. If they went and built a new engine of their own, that's even more complex and demanding. Even with purchasing an existing engine license, it would take at least a year to just get things going, unless you assembled a gigantic team composed of top field experts... but then it takes time for people to familiarize themselves with the project and the new engine no matter how good they are at their job.

 

And all that wouldn't guarantee a huge revival of the game (a game which is doing "ok" and thus one more reason EA will be content to just sit on it and milk it for what it's worth). Because the problem is not just the engine, it's the game design. The design is flawed in several places and that would require even more work.

 

We might as well be talking about SWTOR 2.

[DKNS]

So your saying just because it would be demanding and costly for Bioware i should not even dare to speak my mind?

 

Tell you what buddy, in the real world investments and development costs *********** lots of money and this is no indie company. They promised a product and failed in delivering what was promised. They did not set out to be mediocre with this product, they where aiming to be the best naturally we should expect a premium product.

 

You feel it's just dandy and fine because you have come to accept it by lowering your expectations and standards.

With the inital hype and population this game had it went in the right direction, then people started to see it's flaws and now 2 years into the game we still see some of these flaws.

 

Why are you ok with this? Are just a guy who buys a broken watch and is thrilled that it at least shows the right time twice aday?

 

There is demanding and costly and then there is outrageously costly. Most games have engine flaws, no engine is perfect. Biggest thing of all, they would have to take the game down for 2-3 years to remake it completely or just let it run as it with no new content for 2-3 years while the devs work on the alternate game on the new engine. What profit will this game return when run for 2-3 years without any content? None, and that won't support the uptime costs of the game.

 

Games like EvE who have expansions only can afford as they don't have to add monthly contents and even they only added some pretty graphics.

 

FFXIV had to do it and had to be completely taken down to accomplish it. SWTOR is not in a state that FFXIV was when it was taken down. PvE runs perfectly fine and Ilum was just something out of the games capabilities.

 

Even if you look at WvWvW in GW2, you can see how badly it lags. The Karka (or whatever they were called) attack in GW2 was just Ilum all over again but the people didn't ask for the game to be brought down just because of one event. No, they knew that it was beyond the capabilities of the game engine and server infrastructure and let it go.

 

So just let this *********** go. The game runs fine although some servers could use a few improvements but nothing like bringing it down for 2-3 years.

[Gaudrath]

I'm sure your right, and i think AO did a re haul of it's engine back in the days as well. (don't quote me on that)

Nothing is ever easy but if this game is going to keep evolving it can't be standing in quicksand.

 

You need a solid foundation and this simply is not good. How are they going to release improvements when apparently something as standard as bloody chat bubbles are to complex and demanding?

 

Oh don't get me started on those. Chat bubbles are completely doable in any engine. The reason they're not adding them is because they probably have a minimum-crew team which is struggling to just keep the game rolling in addition of an occasional content update and so the QoL features like chat bubbles are buried somewhere on the bottom of the to-do list.

 

Chat bubbles are simple sprite objects with text on them. If you can display text in your engine and you can display camera-perpendicular particles in your engine, you can display chat bubbles.

[JPryde]

So your saying just because it would be demanding and costly for Bioware i should not even dare to speak my mind?

 

Tell you what buddy, in the real world investments and development costs *********** lots of money and this is no indie company. They promised a product and failed in delivering what was promised. They did not set out to be mediocre with this product, they where aiming to be the best naturally we should expect a premium product.

 

You feel it's just dandy and fine because you have come to accept it by lowering your expectations and standards.

With the inital hype and population this game had it went in the right direction, then people started to see it's flaws and now 2 years into the game we still see some of these flaws.

 

Why are you ok with this? Are just a guy who buys a broken watch and is thrilled that it at least shows the right time twice aday?

SWTOR is not broken.

Bioware did not fail to deliver a working product.

 

The Game Engine is the very core of a project. Sure, it is technically possible to change it, but it is so damn expensive, that we will not see that for another 3 years or longer. Only if SWTOR makes it that far, then it might be reasonable to exchange the engine for a new one. Until then we simply are stuck with the current one, wheter we like it or not.

 

So regarding the thread title... it is already to late. The game engine in use at release is the game engine that a project will run on for a long time. Only if the project survives long enough that hardware will warrant a significant improvement alongside the change of engine, then there might be a budget to do the change.

 

Right now, the cost would hinder the game development for months, if not a full year or longer. A project that does make money but not as much as was originally planned, will not suddenly get a budget of two-digit-million for a change of the core, when most people are demanding more content and other changes that are far more visible.

[Gaudrath]

Games typically do not update their engines if there is no real reason to do it (basically if the game is not working for the majority of the target audience).

 

Look at WoW. That engine sure could use a bit of an overhaul. Will it happen? Nope. Too expensive and it's still working for what it was built. They'll sooner make WoW 2 or something similar. If you're going with a new engine, might as well go all the way and make a new game.

[okkestarwars]

He's just being realistic. With the way the game engine is designed and the way EA operates, there is exactly zero chance we will see a complete engine replacement. It would require opening up a new parallel development team which would work exclusively on porting the existing game into a new engine.

 

That would cost a lot of money. Not as much as the original game, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least 40% of the original budget would have to be invested into it. You have to purchase a new engine license, then you have to adapt that engine to your needs - complex work. If they went and built a new engine of their own, that's even more complex and demanding. Even with purchasing an existing engine license, it would take at least a year to just get things going, unless you assembled a gigantic team composed of top field experts... but then it takes time for people to familiarize themselves with the project and the new engine no matter how good they are at their job.

 

And all that wouldn't guarantee a huge revival of the game (a game which is doing "ok" and thus one more reason EA will be content to just sit on it and milk it for what it's worth). Because the problem is not just the engine, it's the game design. The design is flawed in several places and that would require even more work.

 

We might as well be talking about SWTOR 2.

 

I'm buying your argument.

 

But the majority of the cost building this game where all the studio recording voice overs. Is it really that hard to implement all those assets into a new engine?

 

What about further development on the current engine? Can it be done because i'm not a programmer i just a starwars fan and really hoping this game will support large scale pvp as was intended.

[Gaudrath]

I'm buying your argument.

 

But the majority of the cost building this game where all the studio recording voice overs. Is it really that hard to implement all those assets into a new engine?

 

What about further development on the current engine? Can it be done because i'm not a programmer i just a starwars fan and really hoping this game will support large scale pvp as was intended.

 

Every engine can be upgraded. It's all code, you get what you coded. The thing is, sometimes the overhaul needs to be so extensive to support certain features that you basically have to rework the whole thing. Now, I do not know the extent to which the Hero engine fork Bioware is using would need to be overhauled, but I imagine its pretty large.

 

I do believe we will see gradual improvements. I just read a separate thread where devs have indeed confirmed they're working on chat bubbles, for example. The free form space PvP is another example. I kinda doubt we'll see massive open world PvP, but to date no game ever managed to pull that one off well.

 

As for assets, usually you need to update the formats. Sounds not so much, but even textures often need to be updated because (for example) the old engine used the red channel in the data texture to display glowing areas on models and the new engine is using the blue channel. So someone needs to go through every single texture in the game and update that, or the engine needs to be modified etc. - and that's a relatively simple problem.