Time to ungimp assassins

[kidatwood]

This is again inaccurate.

 

Then prove it is not a hybrid class. Does any other class have all 4 classes roled into one? You can do all of what all the other classes can do just not as well. I know I've raided plenty to know what classes do.

[Reno_Tarshil]

There is no reason to kite sunder on a Jug. You kite him while waiting to kill, then use your cds in proper manner. He doesn't focus, it's like a normal fight. It is a bit harder on the healers perhaps, but easier as a whole. I have not tested this in HM, but I believe it could be done just the same. I cannot speak for NM.

 

I kite him because it's how I learned the fight on my shadow and how I'm comfortable doing it.

[Hyfy]

If anything the assinate abilty below 30 is a dps boost so it makes no sense to say they are fine cause of assinante when they parse for more with it and still 500 dps below other classes

 

 

Whoa wait, you are telling us that the assassinate ability is a DPS boost right? So it makes no sense to say they are fine because of assassinate when they parse for more with it? Are you even paying attention to what he said and what you response is? He said your parsing on the training dummy is flawed because it doesn't take abilities like assassinate into account because you can't get the dummies down far enough to use them. Your statement negates your own argument. So which is it?

[Vaerah]

You want a op class sorry I am not going to support this. Every class I ever played I can run the first two planets without need of my companion. So try doing that with a merc, then tell me the assassin should be the class getting a buff up? They can cloak, they can force run, they can come out of cloak and put a large hit on there enemy, and then disappear again. If they buff up the tanking I dont mind that. Absolutely NO DAMAGE increase, or more crowd control, and for that matter no buffing on the cloaking side.

 

I got vanguard which needs its ranged increased, two of its animations replaced, because they do not look anything like a trooper ability. I cant fire when kneeling, I can not fire when prone, hell I cant even go prone in this game. It would be like a Sniper having everything perfect but a shadow/assassin having no force cloak, no force run, and no lightsaber. It just would not feel right. Then again who cares about a trooper right, Sith and Jedi thats where the moneys at.

 

There is other things I could mention that need worked on but I dont feel like creating a wall here.

 

I play both a shadow (main), a vanguard and a sniper. Of the 3, the sniper is the best and most all around well designed, the shadow distant second, vanguard a bit worse.

But as class shadow is indeed very fun but once played other classes you wonder why somebody would want to play one. Anything (including simple RNG) breaking the first 2 hits and that class is just garbage, both in PvE and PvP. Expecially come arenas where it's impossible to "solo" anyone (map too small and all clustered together) shadows can't even guard nodes.

Also, I had issues soloing 2 men heroics, something that on my sniper is basically a 4 buttons matter.

 

But why am I making sniper my new main? Because shadows / sins are the "rogues" and in all MMOs they are hated because the evil rogue ganked you at level 22 on Tatooine therefore they must all die in RL for that. So forget EVER being rebalanced with anyone else.

"They stealth!!!!!".... but that's not a special point, it's not in *addition* to being a normal, complete class. Without stealth they are made weak enough that they are complete toss.

"They can tank!!!"... too bad they get denied simple FPs (not talking about 8-16 men, where it's worse) because of the stigma of being the suck tanks that die just because.

Much more relaxing being the ranged DPS that blasts away from the back, no question asked, top DPS with no effort, no blame for dying and making the raid wipe.

 

"OP class" lol.

[mmjarec]

That's why he would be an off tank not a main tank. An off healer not a main healer. Ect. Your class is a utility class if you want a main tank role one.....

 

Im sorry but when did they say sins should do less damage and tank worse. You can just invent stuff like a utility class there is no such thing utility impies they can preform multiple functions. Atm they cant even do one function as well as ANY other class

 

Go look up the definition of hybrid and youll see there is no such thing as a hybrid AC maybee a hybrid spec but not class

[DarthMaulUK]

If Bioware had the brains, they would create TWO skill trees and match the same points to be spent in each. One for PvE and the other for PvP because clearly trying to create a balance for PvE is hurting PvP and vice verse. I just wished Bioware would wake up to the fact that people DO want to PvP, after all this is supposed to be Star WARS, no Star Sims.

[mmjarec]

If Bioware had the brains, they would create TWO skill trees and match the same points to be spent in each. One for PvE and the other for PvP because clearly trying to create a balance for PvE is hurting PvP and vice verse. I just wished Bioware would wake up to the fact that people DO want to PvP, after all this is supposed to be Star WARS, no Star Sims.

 

I know id be happy with one tree functioning on par with others

[Eitetsu]

They don't even need to make new trees. All they need to do is have two rule sets. In other words: in a PvE instance, an ability functions one way. And in a PvP instance, or if one's flag is active, it functions a different way. I know they can do this already, because the relics in 2.0 have clauses like "does not trigger in PvE\PvP areas." They can definitely create abilities that function different ways in different zones.

 

As for the claim that assassins parse lower because they can't use their execute. Annihilation marauders can't use their execute either, and they parse significantly higher. So that's not an excuse. Fact of the matter is, Assassin DPS needs a little love. Not a lot mind you. But something.

 

And it's the same with Darkness Tank. In the "assassin tank mathematics thread" as I've come to call it (go check it--it's in the Shadow class forum I believe), all they would need apparently is the equivalent of a 4% damage reduction to bring them in-line with the other tank classes. Not a lot. Just a little.

[mmjarec]

They don't even need to make new trees. All they need to do is have two rule sets. In other words: in a PvE instance, an ability functions one way. And in a PvP instance, or if one's flag is active, it functions a different way. I know they can do this already, because the relics in 2.0 have clauses like "does not trigger in PvE\PvP areas." They can definitely create abilities that function different ways in different zones.

 

As for the claim that assassins parse lower because they can't use their execute. Annihilation marauders can't use their execute either, and they parse significantly higher. So that's not an excuse. Fact of the matter is, Assassin DPS needs a little love. Not a lot mind you. But something.

 

And it's the same with Darkness Tank. In the "assassin tank mathematics thread" as I've come to call it (go check it--it's in the Shadow class forum I believe), all they would need apparently is the equivalent of a 4% damage reduction to bring them in-line with the other tank classes. Not a lot. Just a little.

Yes! Ive been an advocate of double rulesets for pvp and pve that would maintain balance and i dont care about darkness dps since its a tank tree if they buffed mitgiation and moved the proc that lets you use forward facing maul id be fine since its so inefficient it would t even be a dps boost but would give more versatility

 

That forward maul proc seems to be out of place in a tank tree anyway and dont even get me started on the worthless ess on the madness tree its just a stupid idea to have a class called assassin that pin*****s someone to dealth they should hit fast and hard if they retooled madness to a pvp tree pike rage is for maras it would do nothing but help since madness is worthless atm

[Hockaday]

Then prove it is not a hybrid class. Does any other class have all 4 classes roled into one? You can do all of what all the other classes can do just not as well. I know I've raided plenty to know what classes do.

 

The stupid is strong in you.

 

Sins can't heal. Even if they did have a heal spec, they still wouldn't be hybrid in the logical meaning of the word. A hybrid class can heal and dps, or dps and tank, etc etc at the same time/ Your spec is your role. There is no hybrid tree in the game. A sorcerer can either dps or heal, not both (if properly spec'd), a sin can dps or tank,.

 

By your logic, both Jugs and PTs are hybrids as well, and should be just as spikey.

 

Now, we can look at sorc too if you like...Ops can dps and heal, and they're one of the strongest healers right now.

 

Do you really want to continue arguing in the face of simple, simple logic? If you do I suggest moving to EQ2...where logic is hated by both the devs and the player base.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Hockaday

[Hockaday]

I kite him because it's how I learned the fight on my shadow and how I'm comfortable doing it.

 

I learned that way as well. You should experiment in tanking strats, as a Jug (or I assume a PT, maybe not due to lack of CDs) it's much better to face tank him.

[mmjarec]

I learned that way as well. You should experiment in tanking strats, as a Jug (or I assume a PT, maybe not due to lack of CDs) it's much better to face tank him.

 

I have a jug and a sin its ten times easier as a jug with things like intercede and way better mitigation on a sin if your healer lags it spikes so bad youre dead They should at least be comparable. One should be absorb based one should be mitigation but being at the whim of the internet spikes of my healer is no bueno

[Nempo]

I will say this time and time again, parsing on a combat dummy is POINTLESS. Target dummies do not drop in health and thus the major point of PvE AND PvP damage is never seen on the parse all thanks to the fact the dummy never drops below 30% HP.

 

In PvE, that "end phase" is the most important phase, and it is a phase only assassins/shadows and gunslingers/snipers truly shine in. It is also where shadows/assassins blow everyone else out of the water on damage done.

 

Due to this, parsing is pointless on anything but an OPs boss. Meaning, unless you are looking at combat damage done through an entire boss fight from pull till death, you are only looking at the openning of the fight, not the full fight.

 

So, in conclusion, ignore parsing and the theorizing behind it and actually look at practical application. Thus, in the field. Want a strong test? Use the same companion for all 4 classes (melee tank would be a good option) then pick fights with gold level or champ level lone mobs (it is not hard to find either). Time how long it takes to drop them. You will find the assassin/shadow and gunslinger/sniper drop enemies the fastest. Thus, by proxy, do the best in raw damage potential all thanks to the "execute" style skills of both classes which cause them to do far superior damage.

[mmjarec]

I will say this time and time again, parsing on a combat dummy is POINTLESS. Target dummies do not drop in health and thus the major point of PvE AND PvP damage is never seen on the parse all thanks to the fact the dummy never drops below 30% HP.

 

In PvE, that "end phase" is the most important phase, and it is a phase only assassins/shadows and gunslingers/snipers truly shine in. It is also where shadows/assassins blow everyone else out of the water on damage done.

 

Due to this, parsing is pointless on anything but an OPs boss. Meaning, unless you are looking at combat damage done through an entire boss fight from pull till death, you are only looking at the openning of the fight, not the full fight.

 

So, in conclusion, ignore parsing and the theorizing behind it and actually look at practical application. Thus, in the field. Want a strong test? Use the same companion for all 4 classes (melee tank would be a good option) then pick fights with gold level or champ level lone mobs (it is not hard to find either). Time how long it takes to drop them. You will find the assassin/shadow and gunslinger/sniper drop enemies the fastest. Thus, by proxy, do the best in raw damage potential all thanks to the "execute" style skills of both classes which cause them to do far superior damage.

 

Thats a erroneous argument you get a few executes at most below 30% on all things cept bosses and they dontbalance around boss encounters. A few executes isnt going to make up the 500 plus dps points assassins are missing. No other classes can use them either so its actually balanced fine relative to other classes

[DarthSpekulatius]

Here's the problem with this thread it doesn't start out articulating the issues, which to be taken seriously it should. The community is tired and sees the multiple threads across forums asking for as whining, they see us in regs being regstars blowing up bads and blowing all stuns to get a quick kill and they hate it. There is no sympathy really. If we get more substained in Deception we will loss burst in the end whether its at the same time or later. The best bet is to ask for madness to be changed for PvE DPS since it has little burst compared to Decep.

 

The other issue is people that play the class are prone to exaggeration now when they really have no idea they just jump on the QQ train. 1 poster, who posts a lot negatively, asking for buffs didn't even know what all the abilities are. Others say they can't tank Hard mode 50 FPs lol. We need to stop that and stay to the facts and prove the point through hard factual evidence. Stretching the truth will get us no where.

 

I am not talking about you OP but your thread would recieve a better response if it sticks to the basics and evidence. However we will end up losing some things for whatever we gain.

 

Anyway trolls troll on an op rage on, good luck on your quest.

 

qft

 

@mmjarec

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[Reno_Tarshil]

Thats a erroneous argument you get a few executes at most below 30% on all things cept bosses and they dontbalance around boss encounters. A few executes isnt going to make up the 500 plus dps points assassins are missing. No other classes can use them either so its actually balanced fine relative to other classes

 

Ahem... Sentinels/Marauders, Guardians/Juggernauts and Gunslingers/Snipers also have an execute...

[mmjarec]

Ahem... Sentinels/Marauders, Guardians/Juggernauts and Gunslingers/Snipers also have an execute...

 

Yes and none of them can use it on a dummy either. Thanks for making my point

 

You want proof i give proof. Then you say my proof isnt good enough. Go get it for yourself then. Torparse clearly shows sins are gimp on way more than target dummies. Pretty mich everything

[danielearley]

Every parse. Personal experiences

 

Parses mean nothing when done on Dummies, real dps comes from dynamic combat....

 

The shadow/sin has the ability to continue DPS while moving while some of the Turrets with the highest DPS against Dummies are gimped when they have to move i.e avoiding AOE or chasing the boss.

 

So as mentioned by a few responses, this more a case of L2P, sorry but a true story.

Edited September 16, 2013 by danielearley

[mmjarec]

Parses mean nothing when done on Dummies, real dps comes from dynamic combat....

 

The shadow/sin has the ability to continue DPS while moving while some of the Turrets with the highest DPS against Dummies are gimped when they have to move i.e avoiding AOE or chasing the boss.

 

So as mentioned by a few responses, this more a case of L2P, sorry but a true story.

 

Torparse has more than just target dummies. Oh boy i can dps while moving because im melee geez what a game balancer. Id give up mobility to have max range. I do low dps cause i can move is probably the most stupid argument ive seen. If its a l2p issue there must not be one sin that knows hiw to play based on their dps records. I was wondering how long it would be before you used to copout l2p excuse.

 

If its l2p issue why then arent there ever any sins above the bottom slot on dps? Riddle me that genius

[ImperialSun]

Torparse has more than just target dummies. Oh boy i can dps while moving because im melee geez what a game balancer. Id give up mobility to have max range. I do low dps cause i can move is probably the most stupid argument ive seen. If its a l2p issue there must not be one sin that knows hiw to play based on their dps records. I was wondering how long it would be before you used to copout l2p excuse.

 

If its l2p issue why then arent there ever any sins above the bottom slot on dps? Riddle me that genius

 

Because they are a utility class designed to be a jack of all trades master of none. That is why they do not, and should not have equal dps to the pure dps classes. Simples.

 

Driz

[danielearley]

Torparse has more than just target dummies. Oh boy i can dps while moving because im melee geez what a game balancer. Id give up mobility to have max range. I do low dps cause i can move is probably the most stupid argument ive seen. If its a l2p issue there must not be one sin that knows hiw to play based on their dps records. I was wondering how long it would be before you used to copout l2p excuse.

 

If its l2p issue why then arent there ever any sins above the bottom slot on dps? Riddle me that genius

 

Sorry but I've seen MOX Raids where Shadows have been 2nd and 3rd on the DPS table for Boss fights, so once again I return you to L2P.

I didn't say that moving was a game balancer, was pointing out that it's easy to have good rotation for a slinger on a Dummy as you don't have to concentrate on anything else, it never moves out of your AOE and you don't have to move out of its.

Good DPS figures come from play in a dynamic situation not sitting in front of a Dummy.

As pointed out by other posters, Shadow/sins have other utility compared to pure DPS, so I would not expect them to have the same DPS. But their DPS is not that far behind. So once again if yours is L2P

[mmjarec]

Sorry but I've seen MOX Raids where Shadows have been 2nd and 3rd on the DPS table for Boss fights, so once again I return you to L2P.

I didn't say that moving was a game balancer, was pointing out that it's easy to have good rotation for a slinger on a Dummy as you don't have to concentrate on anything else, it never moves out of your AOE and you don't have to move out of its.

Good DPS figures come from play in a dynamic situation not sitting in front of a Dummy.

As pointed out by other posters, Shadow/sins have other utility compared to pure DPS, so I would not expect them to have the same DPS. But their DPS is not that far behind. So once again if yours is L2P

Sorry but without validation i refuse to beleive you seeing how every legit parse shows them on bottom. And how exactly are they a utility class what utility do they provide that warrAnts a drastic drop in dps. Please dont say stealth

 

They arent a utility class they are a dps class. Too bad just saying you saw a parse that you cant prove had sins in top dps slots doesnt make it true

 

For every parse you claim to see but fail to provide evidence of i can provide evidence of ten parses that habe them on bottom. Once again its beyond dispute. They are gimp The facts prove it. Your opinion proves nothing. Especially when you see a parse of a class you dont play or provide proof that it happened. In that case i saw a talkig bear making sammiches for a giraffe. Wow see how easy lying is

[LordArtemis]

Bioware has the metrics. And the metrics ARE valid and genuine. I would bet my life on it.

 

If this issue was one that either was as serious as presented or contrary to how Bioware designed it it would likely already have been adjusted. Obviously Bioware intended some kind of DPS reduction in ability with utility classes. My main is a Sorc...so i understand reduced DPS.

 

It will likely be adjusted if Bioware deems it necessary. For now it seems they are going to wait for more info.

[kidatwood]

No matter what anyone says to you there wrong and your right. BW disagrees with you or it would be changed. So why don't you just come out and say what you really want and that's your class to be the most powerful class in the game. I think maybe you should ask BW to give you an I Win button cause this is really what this is all about.

[ImperialSun]

Sorry but without validation i refuse to beleive you seeing how every legit parse shows them on bottom. And how exactly are they a utility class what utility do they provide that warrAnts a drastic drop in dps. Please dont say stealth

 

They arent a utility class they are a dps class. Too bad just saying you saw a parse that you cant prove had sins in top dps slots doesnt make it true

 

For every parse you claim to see but fail to provide evidence of i can provide evidence of ten parses that habe them on bottom. Once again its beyond dispute. They are gimp The facts prove it. Your opinion proves nothing. Especially when you see a parse of a class you dont play or provide proof that it happened. In that case i saw a talkig bear making sammiches for a giraffe. Wow see how easy lying is

 

No. They ARE a utility class....otherwise why do they have fairly good dps coupled with tanking and stealth abilities? THAT is not a dps class it IS a utility class.

 

I am sorry that you cannot accept the class as BW designed it to be. Spamming threads and low grade trolling will not change the fact that BW designed the class that way.

 

Driz