Why Smash Should Not be Nerfed

[iheartnyc]

Given that absolutely zero healing is recieved. Which is a very unreal situation. The healer is probebly already at full resolve because that was required to get you low in the first place. And exactly that illustrates why it is OP.

 

I'm pretty sure this is how we burned down marauders or any other DPS class in ranked for months. You know you have interrupts and can push away the tank so as to prevent healing without filling resolve.

[maverickmatt]

Because we are a pure DPS class that cannot ever node guard or respec to tank. Why do you expect the two classes to have similar utility?

 

So you would want your class to be simultaneously on par with smasher for DPS, the top node guard in the game, top tank in the game, on top of the hordes of other utility feautres you had such as being able to stealth in huttball and wait at the line for the friendly leap?

 

There's a reason why you couldn't field a ranked team without a shadow.

 

Actually...

 

 

Slinger is the second best Node Guard, and if a Sent respecs Watchman he is right there too..

 

Provided he can actually play watchman.

 

 

 

and the entire point everyone is trying to make is that pure DPS classes SHOULD outdo everyone else.. but they should be fragile (the glass cannon effect). Currently neither Pure DPS AC is squishy in the slightest, and it creates an imbalance that needs to be rectified.

 

Op heals are the same.. They can put out the highest HPS.. and therefore should be frail.. but they are not. They can simply heal themselves nonstop and facetank if they so choose.

[iheartnyc]

Actually...

 

 

Slinger is the second best Node Guard, and if a Sent respecs Watchman he is right there too..

 

Provided he can actually play watchman.

 

 

 

and the entire point everyone is trying to make is that pure DPS classes SHOULD outdo everyone else.. but they should be fragile (the glass cannon effect). Currently neither Pure DPS AC is squishy in the slightest, and it creates an imbalance that needs to be rectified.

 

Op heals are the same.. They can put out the highest HPS.. and therefore should be frail.. but they are not. They can simply heal themselves nonstop and facetank if they so choose.

 

It sounds like you're describing sorcerer/sage. Look at how well making them fragile worked out for the class.

[Evolixe]

And most of other DPS can respec to heals or tank, and have all sorts of other crazy utility like being able to throw down a lot more AOE, stealth out indefinitely, scamper, pull, push...

 

Can't even respec anymore coming patch, how much relevance does that have when changing is only statically and permanent for the entire game?

 

Also, the point is your survivability. Whatever other classes can or cannot do. Or do or do not have.. is not at all relevant in this case. Your survivability is OP. End of discussion.

[Savej]

LOL, I remember these types of posts......

 

Sorcs were a completely different story. There was lots of evidence that they weren't performing the way they were supposed to. You could do /who surveys and literally 1/3rd to 1/2 of the players in the game were sorcs/sages.

 

Smashers have had these posts since before 1.4. They stopped getting them for a month or two after 2.0 because smashers were nerfed in that. But lately there's been a ton of them, mostly because, I think, a lot of bad players have been resubbing lately. I think most of the people spamming about smashers are trying to distract forum attention away from their classes. Notice how some people present observations: "everyone's a smasher now", "smashers always get top dps by an order of magnitude", "smashers are invincible/invulnerable/etc" but there hasn't been a shred of evidence to support that - arguments countering them are just denied and dismissed or ignored.

 

Last time I checked on POT5 and JM @55 there are still more sorcs/sages than sent/maras (and more cons/inqs than knight/warriors) - but the numbers are much closer than they were pre 1.2. But of course actual facts don't stop these trolls from saying knights/warriors are smashing everything everywhere. And that's why they are being ignored for the most part.

 

Anti-smash threads/posts are just a SWTOR staple. There's no "slight" nerf that would make most of the whiners stop: smashers are always going to have defensive cooldowns, a charge ability and high aoe burst (which is the definition of OP to most of them) so... don't get your hopes up.

[Enhancer]

It sounds like you're describing sorcerer/sage. Look at how well making them fragile worked out for the class.

 

If sorcs could put out the raw hard hitting useful DPS that smashers do, I think there would be fewer complaints about them. And don't bother with mentioning the left to free-cast lightning party that produces inflated and unrealistic DPS numbers in reg warzones, I'm talking about non turret, non-proc based auto-critting attacks similar to what smashers currently have. I fully understand the ramifications of a lightning sorc left to free-cast, but you and I both know that at competitive PVP levels, notable sorcs like Mudclot get sat on and shut down. I think most would agree that reducing the survivability of smashers would be a huge step in the right direction, it's the mad DPS coupled with the defensive CD's that really swing the balance.

 

So yes, I agree, fragile and mostly useless DPS (sorcs) is not the ticket. But if smashers had a fewer defensive options (and amazing ones at that), I think it would be a reasonable compromise to a class that certainly has lots of tools for a pure DPS class. You can't argue how hard they can be to take down if played well.

[Savej]

I fully understand the ramifications of a lightning sorc left to free-cast, but you and I both know that at competitive PVP levels, notable sorcs like Mudclot get sat on and shut down.

 

So do smashers.

[Nightkin]

Just have to say that since we are a pure DPS class with no other function (same with gunslinger/sniper), of course we should dominate the melee DPS and the ranged DPS slots. All other classes with DPS ability can easily respec.

 

And yes, I'm sure other classes would love to have an autocrit high damage DPS. Just the same, I would love the ability to respec to heals or have most of my attacks be ranged, or the ability to scamper roll or have permanate stealth ability.

 

I dont agree one tiny bit with you, nothing you say holds in comparison to other classes ability to pvp at a high lvl in pvp. In 2.4 people will not be able to respec in wz or while in que so thats your argument right down the drain.

If class A specs for dps and class B spec for dps before a WZ then both should have similar chances to top the lists. But in reality that will not happen, only smashers (good smashers) top the lists.

 

Your first screenshot showed you and your entire team as scrubs and you got owned. No big deal, it happens to everyone. But to use that screenshot as any kind of proof is silly.

How about this one then?

http://i.imgur.com/KgozyuK.jpg

 

or maybe

http://i.imgur.com/boxAYAI.jpg

 

And thats not even the record on TOFN, record is something around 2600 dps from a marauder ofc.

10k+ AoE auto crits + best cooldowns in the game.

Pop cloak of pain and you reach tank like base mitigation

Pop Undying Rage and its = one extra life if you have a decent healer

Pop Force Cloak and its yet another extra life, if you have a decent healer.

 

Other classes just has to bury themselfs bum up so the next smasher has someplace to park his bike.

 

The entire community, except you it seems, are agreed that smashers are OP, that mara/sent are OP while in rage spec. Jugs can be handled, they dont have two extra lifes on a 45 second cooldown.

 

Im sure you will have some witty remark about how wrong i was about some cooldown timer or whatever but you cannot in a million years convince me that this class+ spec isnt grossly overpowered.

I have a 55 sentinel myself in smash spec so i know exactly what im talking about here.

Melee in this game rules supreme. The days of force lightning spamming sorcs are long gone.

And you my friend, are wrong wrong wrong WRONG! WRONG!

[TheCourier-]

Smash does not reliably hit for over 10000 damage. Smash usually hits for around 8-9000.

[Enhancer]

So do smashers.

 

Certainly.

 

But since a large part of shutting down a caster is simply interrupting him, a sorc is much easier to render useless than classes with instant DPS based rotations. And the big hits only come with the right procs for sorcs, so you need an uninterrupted casted talent to be fired off along with the proc to be able to chain a respectable amount of burst. Not so the case with smash spec.

 

In 8v8's, it's doable since there is some objective based angle other than just killing one another. But in arenas, it will be a much different situation.

[Enhancer]

Smash does not reliably hit for over 10000 damage. Smash usually hits for around 8-9000.

 

LOL, like there's a big difference between 10k and 8 or 9k. And it's not necessarily even the 8 or 9k, its the frequency at which they can do it.

[alexsamma]

Smash is fine for 8v8, but needs to be toned down for arena.

 

QQing about smash in regs is pointless, regs can lead to many stacked comps and multiple smashers (much like multiple anything) will roll through regs if the other team does not have the comp/coordination to deal with it.

 

Mara smash for arena is broken due to the DCDs, jugg smash is not overpowered.

 

Honestly, BW needs to consider implementing specific changes just for arena that do not affect the rest of the game, currently smash maras are the only melee dps capable of attacking the back line in an organized pvp setting (not that it really matters since ranked 8v8 is going away), nerfing their dcds would make them melt against any sort of competent team in 8v8, but their DCDs must be nerfed for arena to be balanced.

 

I main a sorc btw, so seeing smash nerfed would be great for me. but is not needed for 8v8 and arena nerfs should (IMO) should be handled by a specific arena mechanic that does not affect PVE/other forms of PVP.

[JaingSkiratapwns]

LOL, like there's a big difference between 10k and 8 or 9k. And it's not necessarily even the 8 or 9k, its the frequency at which they can do it.

 

No, there's a pretty big difference there. A sniper can do 8 or 9k damage in the same amount of time, its just not all at once in the flashy way smash is.

[Enhancer]

No, there's a pretty big difference there. A sniper can do 8 or 9k damage in the same amount of time, its just not all at once in the flashy way smash is.

 

No, there's not a big difference between 8-9k vs.10k. 1k health is 1k health regardless of who's dishing it out. That response was specific to that rebuttal that most smashes don't hit for 10k.

 

And I don't think anyone would argue that snipers sitting real pretty right now, but that's a whole different conversation.

[iheartnyc]

 

The entire community, except you it seems, are agreed that smashers are OP, that mara/sent are OP while in rage spec. Jugs can be handled, they dont have two extra lifes on a 45 second cooldown.

 

The entire world thought the world was flat? Not trying to be snide, but this is precisely why I made this thread. All these people crying for a nerf seem to encourage people to think the problem is cut and clear and an easy fix, and that everyone thinks it is a problem.

 

There are plenty of people who don't post on the forums who may disagree with you. There have been several posters on this thread alone who have posed differing opinions.

 

At the very least, this thread is a place to promote rational, thoughtful discussion on what the real problems are.

 

Comparing Smash apple to apple to other classes is not helpful. Throwing out hackneyed phrases like "smash monkey" or "pressing one button noob class" is not helpful. You need to consider the Smash AOE and defensive cooldowns in the context of overall balance, and also the role it plays in shutting down some other class that may otherwise be completely OP otherwise.

 

I think we can all agree that with the balance as it is now, without strong Smash players shutting down the ranged DPS, the gunslingers and DPS sage/sorcs would simply run rampant in this game. Smash is the most viable melee DPS class in this game - make it too squishy or too weak, and what will fill the void? Teams stacked with hybrid Vanguard/Powertech? If anything, the Smash ability itself should be tweaked, not the DCDs. A dead Smasher is putting no pressure at all on healers or ranged DPS. So if you're going to nerf the Smash, then I think you need to give the Smash another CC, or fix resolve so it doesn't fill up as quickly, or something similar, so that it can continue in its all important role of neutralizing ranged DPS and healers. It's a complicated discussion, and blaming Smash in a vacuum is just going to lead to more trouble.

 

Which is why my preferred solution is a buff to other DPS classes, so somebody else can also neutralize ranged DPS and healers.

Edited September 5, 2013 by iheartnyc

[iheartnyc]

And I don't think anyone would argue that snipers sitting real pretty right now, but that's a whole different conversation.

 

In 8v8s you needed at least one sniper, and it was an incredibly clutch class in Huttballs and Novare Coasts (interupting caps with amazing AOE, picking up the huttball). It looks to be a "bit" weak in Arenas but some teams were extremely successful in Arenas with snipers. In full disclosure, we tried running sniper in Arenas for two days running and lost most of our games. But then when we ran our "strong" team, we only lost 2 games, and in 1 of those games the other team had a sniper ("The Turks" - Mara, Operative, Sniper, Assasin).

Edited September 5, 2013 by iheartnyc

[Savej]

Certainly.

 

But since a large part of shutting down a caster is simply interrupting him, a sorc is much easier to render useless than classes with instant DPS based rotations. And the big hits only come with the right procs for sorcs, so you need an uninterrupted casted talent to be fired off along with the proc to be able to chain a respectable amount of burst. Not so the case with smash spec.

 

In 8v8's, it's doable since there is some objective based angle other than just killing one another. But in arenas, it will be a much different situation.

 

A large part of shutting down a smasher is simply not letting him stay at melee range (snare/root/stun or run away) or taunting him or spreading out -a little- (almost the smallest aoe in the game, smaller than most grenades, smaller than sorc aoe). It's especially easy because he has to get to melee range to do anything: so he's a perfect target for every cc in the game. At the end of a normal game, even in regs, I can count on 3 fingers the number of full master strikes or chokes my sentinel gets off without being interrupted outside of 1v1s - and those abilities have long cooldowns compared to sorc aoe. Ranged casters do not have nearly the same problem and, if they're smart, they can space themselves such that me going over to interrupt him forces me to ignore his healer and his tank and any other ranged dps (nevermind that no matter how many stun and focus him he's not dropping in <10 seconds).

Edited September 5, 2013 by Savej

[Savej]

LOL, like there's a big difference between 10k and 8 or 9k. And it's not necessarily even the 8 or 9k, its the frequency at which they can do it.

 

4 times a minute? Maybe 5 if no one ccs the smasher at all (never happens) and you let him build full centering a couple times? That's actually a low dps vs 1 or 2 targets. And I just had a wz earlier tonight where none of 3 smashers ever got over 6.8k (tanks and healer buffs had me wondering if I forgot to slot my expertise gear for a couple min) and most of my hits were in the 3-4.5k range. I topped the damage charts for the game but neither of the other smashers were in the top 5 (my team won by objectives but it was one of those games where my side got a total of 3 kills and theirs got 30+).

Edited September 5, 2013 by Savej

[Vaerah]

No, there's a pretty big difference there. A sniper can do 8 or 9k damage in the same amount of time, its just not all at once in the flashy way smash is.

 

A sniper can't nuke multiple targets for 8-9k with one action.

 

2 - 3 snipers can't immediately and unstoppably create an AoE area of death where everything inside just dies no matter the healing.

 

1 sniper can't keep happily dish his first class damage with a sin / shadow on his face.

 

1 sniper has difficulties stealthing and moving off when his spot really gets too hot.

[foxmob]

No, there's a pretty big difference there. A sniper can do 8 or 9k damage in the same amount of time, its just not all at once in the flashy way smash is.

 

 

read very carefully what you just said. because here's what I'm getting: sniper can do the same amount of dmg that a smasher can in the same amount of time but not as fast.

 

I can only speak for MM, but that's bogus. sniper needs multiple gcds/setup to do what a smasher can right off the bat (enrage+leap > smash). of course, I've only smashed with my jugg, so I cannot speak for mara/sent smashing.

[foxmob]

Man have you not played arenas? Have you not seen how easy it is to kite around those pillars as a healer with a slowed smasher just sort of walking around after you? The only reason smashsers insist on following the healer around the pillar is at least it prevents big heals from coming out.

 

I'll keep that in mind. wait. no. I won't. you're basing your argument wholly around one subset of pvp (4v4). the vast majority of players who pvp (at all!) have always and will continue to do so in a mixed queue. that's 8v8 + 4v4. you want to argue that balance should be made around the top tier and not the median/mean player? ok. that's fine. that's entirely different, however, from doing so around arenas.

[iheartnyc]

A sniper can't nuke multiple targets for 8-9k with one action.

 

2 - 3 snipers can't immediately and unstoppably create an AoE area of death where everything inside just dies no matter the healing.

 

1 sniper can't keep happily dish his first class damage with a sin / shadow on his face.

 

1 sniper has difficulties stealthing and moving off when his spot really gets too hot.

 

How in the world are people missing the most obvious and basic distinctions here? A sniper is a RANGED DPS CLASS so please stop comparing the two like they're equal! A sniper isn't being focused, stunned, rooted, pushed away from healer, isolated, etc. In a ranked game the sniper will never take the amount of DPS that a Smasher does. If it wasn't for the Smasher's DCDs, the Smasher would be the single highest killed character in the game. Other than a healer, no other target is being focused as much as a smasher. The reasons for this are simple. They are in your face. They are separated from the tanks, ranged DPS and healers. Tab-targetting also targets by default the nearest target. Also, people tend to have tunnel vision so they'll use their CCs and DPS abilities on the target that is in their face.

 

The sniper gets to do its relatively weaker burst from a safe range, while also dropping down awesome AOEs that are larger in size than Smash (smash has only a 5m range), compare that to sniper which has 30m range. In many a ranked game between top teams, the snipers are bar none the highest DPS class. Sure, they may not have the "on-demand Smash" that everyone is complaining about, but they're doing a lot of damage output with little focus. And it's not all splash damage either. You can't say that a sniper who did 200-500K more damange in a single WZ was simply dishing out "minor splash damage" - 200-500K extra damage in a WZ by a single player is a HUGE amount of damage which needs to be healed and mitigated and adds a HUGE amount of pressure to the other team.

 

Also, 2-3 smasher can't "immediately create a ring of AOE death." They have to have leap up. They have to avoid being CC'd or rooted. They have to avoid being slowed and kited. They have to avoided being pushed back. They have to avoid being killed first when the entire enemy team decides to global you. And if you get globalled, you pray you have your DCDs up so you can run back to your healer to be healed, and then you can leap back in, and then again avoid being pushed back, avoid being CCd and slowed. And maybe you'll get your 3 stacks of singularity up, and THEN you can pray that the enemy team decides to just stand around in a gaggle and let you smash them at will. But more likely most of them will spread out and your puny 5m range Smash will only hit 1-2 targets.

 

Awesome fun.

Edited September 5, 2013 by iheartnyc

[iheartnyc]

I'll keep that in mind. wait. no. I won't. you're basing your argument wholly around one subset of pvp (4v4). the vast majority of players who pvp (at all!) have always and will continue to do so in a mixed queue. that's 8v8 + 4v4. you want to argue that balance should be made around the top tier and not the median/mean player? ok. that's fine. that's entirely different, however, from doing so around arenas.

 

In 8v8s smashers are even less of an issue because good gunslingers will always balance the smasher. In 8v8s the "meta" never involved taking more than 2 smashers, and for good reason because all of the other classes had amazing utility (stealth, pulls, pushes, friendly leaps, hunker down, roll, respec, better AOE such as orbital strrike) which smasher never had.

Edited September 5, 2013 by iheartnyc

[foxmob]

And most of other DPS can respec to heals or tank, and have all sorts of other crazy utility like being able to throw down a lot more AOE, stealth out indefinitely, scamper, pull, push...

 

no. they cannot. wait. are you talking about now or PTS? because your response to me was about PTS. no respec. you're picking whatever argument suits you best to discredit the person you've quoted. it cripples your argument. pick one. are you talking about life in 2.4? if so, then why are you saying ppl can respec at a whim? are you talking about live atm? then why are you bringing up pillar humping in arenas?

[iheartnyc]

no. they cannot. wait. are you talking about now or PTS? because your response to me was about PTS. no respec. you're picking whatever argument suits you best to discredit the person you've quoted. it cripples your argument. pick one. are you talking about life in 2.4? if so, then why are you saying ppl can respec at a whim? are you talking about live atm? then why are you bringing up pillar humping in arenas?

 

Because people are talking about 8v8s AND Arenas. 8v8s are gone in 2.4 yet someone brought them up and told me to stop talking about Arenas. Field respec in que is gone I know. But you can't completely discount the fact that you can still respec and have the luxury to respec PRIOR TO QUE to change your team composition as needed. Yeah sure I can roll another class and gear him up, but that is something only the "hardcore" players would have. Casual players don't have multiple geared PVP ready toons and they will be at an implicit disadvantage if they can't respec.

 

And my previous point still stands, that even without field respec, there are a lot of crazy utility skills that other classes have. Pulls and pushes, taunts, ranged DPS, better CCs, etc., which smashers don't have. A lot of the Smasher's utility is further reduced in Arenas because you don't have those big "mid fights" anymore, trans/predation doesn't mean much, difficult to take advantage of force leap because targets usually are too close.

 

And since there are no more objectives, healers and ranged DPS aren't forced to stay relatively close to a certain location, allowing them to kite at will, and there are a lot of boxes/pillars in Arenas which make it even harder for a slowed, CC'd, rooted Smasher to do any DPS.

 

Those Smashers who are just plain average in 8v8s have proven to be completely worthless in Arenas as there are so many more opportunities for talented healers and ranged DPS to completely neutralize them, precisely because there are no objectives which restrict your area of movement. I always laughed when we came up against triple smash teams in Arenas. All you have to do is avoid their initial burst, throw a grenade, spread out and kill their healer and it's game over.

Edited September 5, 2013 by iheartnyc