Warriors need to be retuned.

[KhalDrogoe]

We need to get back to Paper/Rock/Scissors type of balance in PvP. What we have now is a Rock/Rock/Scissors approach, and if you're not a warrior you're playing the wrong class.

 

What I think PvP balance in this game should look like...

 

Ranged beats melee with focus/OH

Melee with Focus/OH beat tank/shield generator

Tank/Shield Generator beats Ranged

 

We all know what happens to scissors in a rock/rock/scissors approach... lolsmash

[Helig]

Disrespectfully disagree. Rock/paper/scissors is the *worst* way to balance PvP. It's boring, it's lazy and it discourages competition.

 

I have all ACs at 55, 2 minmaxed Conquerer, rest at different stages of Partisan optimization, and the balance in ToR is not 1/10th as bad as some of the more vocal players try to present it. Yes, smash stacking is stupid, but it has hard counters. Yes, balance should be adjusted, but the general angst on the forums is really unjustified.

 

My advice is - if you hate to fight a class in PvP so much, *play it*. Grass is always greener when you're not a Smashrauder who is getting permahealed by an Operative healer, amirite?

Edited September 1, 2013 by Helig

[Draqsko]

We need to get back to Paper/Rock/Scissors type of balance in PvP. What we have now is a Rock/Rock/Scissors approach, and if you're not a warrior you're playing the wrong class.

 

What I think PvP balance in this game should look like...

 

Ranged beats melee with focus/OH Scissors beats Scissors.. huh?

Melee with Focus/OH beat tank/shield generator Scissors beats Rock.. wth?

Tank/Shield Generator beats Ranged Rock beats Scissors.. check

 

We all know what happens to scissors in a rock/rock/scissors approach... lolsmash

 

Because scissors/scissors/rock is so much better?

 

Here is the definitions..

DPS = scissors

tanks = rock

healers = paper..

 

Now do the math.

[Arunas]

Most underpowered dps specs are DoT based and DoTs are pretty much only useful for stat padding for scoreboard. Also most DoT specs tend to be squishier since they are supposed to rely on kitting.

 

Mobile healing on other hand is very powerful and useful. And unlike DoT specs operative healer + juggernaut tank has tools to kite multiple enemies.

 

The only way these specs will be useful in arenas/warzones if they would bring something burst classes cannot and I think making them strong against operative healers (by making all force class dots undispellable by operatives) + classes without dispels (warriors!) could be one way to improve them. HoTs should never outheal DoTs since then purge becomes redundant.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Arunas

[Draqsko]

Most underpowered dps specs are DoT based and DoTs are pretty much only useful for stat padding for scoreboard. Also most DoT specs tend to be squishier since they are supposed to rely on kitting.

 

Mobile healing on other hand is very powerful and useful. And unlike DoT specs operative healer + juggernaut tank has tools to kite multiple enemies.

 

The only way these specs will be useful in arenas/warzones if they would bring something burst classes cannot and I think making them strong against operative healers (by making all force class dots undispellable by operatives) + classes without dispels (warriors!) could be one way to improve them. HoTs should never outheal DoTs since then purge becomes redundant.

 

Any healer + guardian/juggernaut tank has tools to kite multiple enemies, and honestly that's more on the tank being able to synergize well with the healer, and knowing the healer's abilities. Bad tanks just add more hp bar, good tanks actually increase survivability on anyone, DPS or healer.

 

Scoundrel/op healers can only cleanse force dots once every 60 seconds on themselves only (Dodge), and all smugglers/agents can do that. Also balance/madness ability that increases DoT damage cannot be cleansed at all. Plus you can reapply the DoTs immediately after they cleanse them.

 

Honestly the only reason why Scoundrel/Op healers are OPed right now is that they removed Pugnacity's increased energy regeneration rate, and made it a baseline ability. Resource management is a joke for any scoundrel at this point because of that change. Previous to that, I actually had to dip into Diag Scan to recharge energy and UM to recharge UH faster to keep Pugnacity rolling for energy management. Now, my UH goes to emergency medpack, energy regen at baseline is good enough to spam slow release medpack on everyone near me to keep UH going full. All that means is unlimited instant, on the run heals that can keep everyone up while half the other team is chasing me around the area, and once the pressure is off, UM/KP to make everyone healed up fully for the respawns.

 

If they rolled back that one change, increased baseline energy regen, scoundrel healers would be on the same level as other healers. SRM would be a resource sink, I would need to dip into DS (channeled weak heal) to recharge energy, I would need to use Pugnacity to help keep it there, I would need to use UM to get upper hands for Pugnacity and EM because I am forced to be more judicious with SRM and only putting it on targets that are actually taking damage. There's no need to make one spec be the sole scoundrel healer's bane (since the only DoT spec with force dots is only 2 classes and 1 tree, Balance/Madness). Roll back increased baseline energy regen, scrappers didn't need it, healers were made OP'd by it, and if you are dirty fighting, you should have been a gunslinger not a scoundrel.

[Vaerah]

Yes, smash stacking is stupid, but it has hard counters.

 

Could you please list the hard counters against smashers, available to a shadow/sin? I know an handful tricks but they can't certainly be called "hard counters". No, "lol play another class which got the hard counters" is not an answer.

[mulzii]

Most underpowered dps specs are DoT based and DoTs are pretty much only useful for stat padding for scoreboard. Also most DoT specs tend to be squishier since they are supposed to rely on kitting.

 

Mobile healing on other hand is very powerful and useful. And unlike DoT specs operative healer + juggernaut tank has tools to kite multiple enemies.

 

The only way these specs will be useful in arenas/warzones if they would bring something burst classes cannot and I think making them strong against operative healers (by making all force class dots undispellable by operatives) + classes without dispels (warriors!) could be one way to improve them. HoTs should never outheal DoTs since then purge becomes redundant.

 

agree. Though to improve the DoT specs, they would need to introduce a better purge system.

[Heal-To-Full]

agree. Though to improve the DoT specs, they would need to introduce a better purge system.

I think something based on these new chair emotes.

[Helig]

Could you please list the hard counters against smashers, available to a shadow/sin? I know an handful tricks but they can't certainly be called "hard counters". No, "lol play another class which got the hard counters" is not an answer.

I have zero problems as Infiltration against smash. I get 30% AoE resistance, I get Masked Assault (25% damage resistance for 6 secs), chainable with Force cloak, I've got Low Slash combos. I have Resilience. In sterile conditions (when nobody will break CC), Cloak=>mindmaze=>meditate allows you to essentially reset the fight in a very one-sided manner. If you get the jump on them and they don't break your 4-sec stun, it's usually over for them, unless they have a significant gear advantage, or if they plain outskill you. But that's on a personal level. On team level, Snipers counter them quite nicely right now, and in 2.4, the infamous Dongcleave (AP techs) will be pushing them out of the "cluster-frak" niche.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Helig

[JaingSkiratapwns]

Could you please list the hard counters against smashers, available to a shadow/sin? I know an handful tricks but they can't certainly be called "hard counters". No, "lol play another class which got the hard counters" is not an answer.

 

You have resiliance, and a base AOE damage reduction if you're deception/infiltration. Not to mention spike damage.

 

 

This isn't directed at you, but its funny that people flip out when they see a smasher hit them for 7-8k than ignore when a sniper can hit about that high with ambush, a merc can hit higher than that with heat seeking missile, I've had mauls hit for over 10k. Now obviously those require crits, but its not like smash is the only DPS spec. Not to mention it has a hard counter with marksman sniper (70% AOE reduction with entrench on FTW).

Edited September 1, 2013 by JaingSkiratapwns

[Savej]

Could you please list the hard counters against smashers, available to a shadow/sin? I know an handful tricks but they can't certainly be called "hard counters". No, "lol play another class which got the hard counters" is not an answer.

 

1v1 sins beat smashers (most of the time, not always - there's a bit of randomness and skill v skill and gear v gear involved).

 

Tips:

Resilience - with that up you can get hit by every smash from a team full of smashers and not take a point of damage.

Invisibility - guardians need to charge before they smash and they need a bit of focus before they smash. They can't zealous leap + smash, for example, if they have 0 focus. Start the fight at melee range and they'll have lost one of their key rotations.

Taunts - In group fights shadows/sins should be taunting - if you all aoe taunt you will see smashes for 4-6k (or less if you've got a bubbler on your team), not 6-9k .

 

Ask on your class forums how you should fight smashers. This isn't really a good thread/place for it because of the half-baked troll squealing - that scares off most of the rational people.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Savej

[Helig]

1v1 sins beat smashers (most of the time, not always - there's a bit of randomness and skill v skill and gear v gear involved).

 

Tips:

Resilience - with that up you can get hit by every smash from a team full of smashers and not take a point of damage.

Invisibility - guardians need to charge before they smash and they need a bit of focus before they smash. They can't zealous leap + smash, for example, if they have 0 focus. Start the fight at melee range and they'll have lost one of their key rotations.

Taunts - In group fights shadows/sins should be taunting - if you all aoe taunt you will see smashes for 4-6k (or less if you've got a bubbler on your team), not 6-9k .

 

Ask on your class forums how you should fight smashers. This isn't really a good thread/place for it because of the half-baked troll squealing - that scares off most of the rational people.

Guards/Juggs get Combat Focus/Enrage, Sents/Marauders get Shii-Cho Zen/Berserk. They don't need to charge for Focus/Rage.

 

You can get feared=>charged, pushed=>charged, camo=>charged, as well.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Helig

[Ifrit]

You have resiliance, and a base AOE damage reduction if you're deception/infiltration. Not to mention spike damage.

 

 

This isn't directed at you, but its funny that people flip out when they see a smasher hit them for 7-8k than ignore when a sniper can hit about that high with ambush, a merc can hit higher than that with heat seeking missile, I've had mauls hit for over 10k. Now obviously those require crits, but its not like smash is the only DPS spec. Not to mention it has a hard counter with marksman sniper (70% AOE reduction with entrench on FTW).

 

The biggest difference between HSM/Ambush hitting for hitting as hard as smash is that smash has auto-crit so it hits that hard every time. HSM/Ambush hit that hard ~25% of the time.

You tack on that smash is an aoe while HSM and Ambush are single target and you get smash is op.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Ifrit

[WarpedAcorn]

Guards/Juggs get Combat Focus/Enrage, Sents/Marauders get Shii-Cho Zen/Berserk. They don't need to charge for Focus/Rage..

 

If they want that auto crit, then they need to Charge. If they want the 10% damage boost from their set bonus, then they need to Charge. Having a full stack of Singularity is only part of the equation.

 

Smash gets a lot of hate, and I'm just not sure why. Its really one of the easier specs to counter. The only thing is punishes is clumping. It doesn't have the ability to pressure 1v1, and really can not take out an equally-geared healer unless that healer is dumb or is prioritizing healing other players. Yes, the spec has a big hitting move in Smash, but its follow ups are nothing impressive. Also bear in mind that the primary way to get Singularity stacks is through Force Crush, which has an 18sec CD.

[Ifrit]

If they want that auto crit, then they need to Charge.

 

You forgot about obliterate (and the rep side version of it).

[Vaerah]

You have resiliance, and a base AOE damage reduction if you're deception/infiltration. Not to mention spike damage.

 

 

This isn't directed at you, but its funny that people flip out when they see a smasher hit them for 7-8k than ignore when a sniper can hit about that high with ambush, a merc can hit higher than that with heat seeking missile, I've had mauls hit for over 10k. Now obviously those require crits, but its not like smash is the only DPS spec. Not to mention it has a hard counter with marksman sniper (70% AOE reduction with entrench on FTW).

 

A simple question is not "flipping". Also, you can list all those fabolous 10k crits but guess what how many are AoE?

Considering it's normal to get 2+ smashers a WZ (they work best when they stack after all), how often do you think someone can use his medium or long refresh CDs when they have to sit toe to toe with high frequency damage other classes?

 

(P.S. the class that kills me the most are single target specced marauders)

Edited September 1, 2013 by Vaerah

[JaingSkiratapwns]

The biggest difference between HSM/Ambush hitting for hitting as hard as smash is that smash has auto-crit so it hits that hard every time. HSM/Ambush hit that hard ~25% of the time.

You tack on that smash is an aoe while HSM and Ambush are single target and you get smash is op.

 

Don't cluster and smash being an AOE doesn't matter. Aimed shot + trick shot even uncritted (yes that two abilities, but they go hand in hand) is more than a smash. I know, I play marksman all the time. All I'm saying is that people who act like smash is the only damage thats viable are laughable and wrong. The problem is, there's alot of stuff in this game where if you stack it, its OP, you have it with smash, you had team poison, and from what I've seen 2.4 you are going to have vanguard/powertech stacking.

Edited September 1, 2013 by JaingSkiratapwns

[JaingSkiratapwns]

A simple question is not "flipping". Also, you can list all those fabolous 10k crits but guess what how many are AoE?

Considering it's normal to get 2+ smashers a WZ (they work best when they stack after all), how often do you think someone can use his medium or long refresh CDs when they have to sit toe to toe with high frequency damage other classes?

 

(P.S. the class that kills me the most are single target specced marauders)

 

If you are losing to single target specced marauders post 2.0 as an assasin, then I don't know what to say. I'd seek out assistance on the class forums. I haven't played my shadow in a while, but I've never had problems with marauders after 2.0. I'm not saying this to try and be rude mind you, I'm just speaking from my perspective.

Edited September 1, 2013 by JaingSkiratapwns

[KhalDrogoe]

Don't cluster and smash being an AOE doesn't matter. Aimed shot + trick shot even uncritted (yes that two abilities, but they go hand in hand) is more than a smash. I know, I play marksman all the time. All I'm saying is that people who act like smash is the only damage thats viable are laughable and wrong. The problem is, stack anything in this game and its OP, you have it with smash, you had team poison, and from what I've seen 2.4 you are going to have vanguard/powertech stacking.

 

You wouldn't believe how powerful stacking Merc Pyro's is right now..... We get 2 of those in a warzone, it's basically game over. They have so many gap closers/snares/DCD's not to mention the only redeeming quality of it's burst potential with Thermal Det. I mean they even added a cleansable DoT on that TD! It's a wonder everyone didn't re-roll Merc Pyro after 1.2 hit.

Edited September 1, 2013 by KhalDrogoe

[JaingSkiratapwns]

You wouldn't believe how powerful stacking Merc Pyro's is right now..... We get 2 of those in a warzone, it's basically game over. They have so many gap closers/snares/DCD's not to mention the only redeeming quality of it's burst potential with Thermal Det. It's a wonder everyone didn't re-roll Merc Pyro after 1.2 hit.

 

Correction, quite a few. Yes Merc pyro is awful, in fact its probably always been awful.

Edited September 1, 2013 by JaingSkiratapwns

[Savej]

Guards/Juggs get Combat Focus/Enrage, Sents/Marauders get Shii-Cho Zen/Berserk. They don't need to charge for Focus/Rage.

 

You can get feared=>charged, pushed=>charged, camo=>charged, as well.

 

Combat focus barely generates barely enough rage for zealous leap + smash - hit the guardian with a kb during the leap and he won't have enough rage to smash by the time he gets close enough to smash you (assuming he doesn't bladestorm you which will blow his smash and assuming you let him get close after the kb).

 

Sents have valor which is on a 3 min cooldown. Otherwise the only way to pop zen is by building centering through lots of fighting which they won't have if you start the fight from stealth. If he does use valor, just use your vanish and wait for your vanish to be available again if you want to.

 

Vanish/sap and wait 10 secs is a good way to blow his singularities, too.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Savej

[PINKPARAKEET]

We need to get back to Paper/Rock/Scissors type of balance in PvP. What we have now is a Rock/Rock/Scissors approach, and if you're not a warrior you're playing the wrong class.

 

What I think PvP balance in this game should look like...

 

Ranged beats melee with focus/OH

Melee with Focus/OH beat tank/shield generator

Tank/Shield Generator beats Ranged

 

We all know what happens to scissors in a rock/rock/scissors approach... lolsmash

 

Why not go with the rock/rock/rock approach?

[NathanielStarr]

The Devs said the ship has sailed on making changes to smash read the answer to the sentinel questions.

[Helig]

Combat focus barely generates barely enough rage for zealous leap + smash - hit the guardian with a kb during the leap and he won't have enough rage to smash by the time he gets close enough to smash you (assuming he doesn't bladestorm you which will blow his smash and assuming you let him get close after the kb).

 

Sents have valor which is on a 3 min cooldown. Otherwise the only way to pop zen is by building centering through lots of fighting which they won't have if you start the fight from stealth. If he does use valor, just use your vanish and wait for your vanish to be available again if you want to.

 

Vanish/sap and wait 10 secs is a good way to blow his singularities, too.

Smash is free (on Sents) at full stack. Guards get additional Focus over time after Combat Focus. Bladestorm is also free after a jump. Smash stack doesn't disappear if he doesn't hit anything.

 

He can gain rage with saber throw/specced dual saber throw, so he will have enough for a medium-sized burst (Obliterate+2 free moves+Ravage, if you let him).

 

Wouldn't matter much if you vanished when you saw Frenzy. He will still have a full rage bar, unless you're playing cat and mouse and hide long enough for it to decay. You won't be able to catch him if he preds away from the fighting zone and just rides off. You'd have to be close, but then there's a pretty significant chance that he'll catch you.

 

But, as I said, Infiltration has enough tools to counter smash in single combat.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Helig

[Brunner_Venda]

I was in a Novare coast yesterday in a group of four smashers and PT me.

 

The other side had four focus firing snipers that spread out to the four corners around the objective.

 

We got... Spanked. Talk about a hard counter. The smashers didn't stand a chance, I could kill one and only one sniper on each respawn before the other three took me out, and that was only when we managed to focus down their OP healer. Smashers couldn't even do that much. It was a bloodbath.

 

What's the hard counter to four or five snipers?